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Would be absolutely insane if Maru flames out and there are 0 terrans left.
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Great write up. Hoping for some combination of Creator/Maru/Hero
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Imagine if only one of the zerg advances here, it would make only 3 of them in top6.
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On April 21 2022 03:55 DivinesiaTV wrote:
Imagine if only one of the zerg advances here, it would make only 3 of them in top6.
that would be insane. i was actually thinking for balance purposes, it might be better to have protosses and terrans have a buddy system. I.e. have trap/maru play dark in a bo5 where trap/maru archon and get to pick between P/T on each map individually. Might make it slightly harder for the Zergs
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Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily...
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On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily...
To be more specific, his opening has been horrific, so the answer here is more like "play like Ryung", who almost never gamble, play a solid opening style that give him a better chance into mid and late game.
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On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily...
If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues.
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On April 21 2022 12:09 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily... If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues.
Maru lost against a zerg and a protoss btw. And no, Maru doesn't need to play his peak to break Zerg dominance, but he needs to play at his peak to beat Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor, when they are at their best.
I know some people might oppose to that, but Maru isn't some kind of god that is 10 levels ahead of everyone else. He is a great player, but so are others. At the moment, he isn't bringing his A-game, while people like Creator or RagnaroK really stepped up, kind of like Ryung stepped up during IEM. It happens, you know? Or how does this work? The game is only balanced if Maru playing with one hand on the balls is still winning everything?
Sorry, but if we are in a situation were people improving just gets shrugged off as balance and everything sucks anyway, then Starcraft 2 indeed has a deep problem community-wise.
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On April 21 2022 21:19 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 12:09 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily... If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues. Maru lost against a zerg and a protoss btw. And no, Maru doesn't need to play his peak to break Zerg dominance, but he needs to play at his peak to beat Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor, when they are at their best. I know some people might oppose to that, but Maru isn't some kind of god that is 10 levels ahead of everyone else. He is a great player, but so are others. At the moment, he isn't bringing his A-game, while people like Creator or RagnaroK really stepped up, kind of like Ryung stepped up during IEM. It happens, you know? Or how does this work? The game is only balanced if Maru playing with one hand on the balls is still winning everything? Sorry, but if we are in a situation were people improving just gets shrugged off as balance and everything sucks anyway, then Starcraft 2 indeed has a deep problem community-wise.
the problem is that there are 4 top Zerg players but only 1 terran on their level. (and 1 or 0 Protoss players depending on Traps form)
I know the argument 'there are just more top Zerg players' but it's on the basis of their results in the last few years where Zerg has continously been too strong.
If one race is too strong, after a while it obviously looks like there are more top players that play the race
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On April 21 2022 21:19 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 12:09 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily... If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues. Maru lost against a zerg and a protoss btw. And no, Maru doesn't need to play his peak to break Zerg dominance, but he needs to play at his peak to beat Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor, when they are at their best. I know some people might oppose to that, but Maru isn't some kind of god that is 10 levels ahead of everyone else. He is a great player, but so are others. At the moment, he isn't bringing his A-game, while people like Creator or RagnaroK really stepped up, kind of like Ryung stepped up during IEM. It happens, you know? Or how does this work? The game is only balanced if Maru playing with one hand on the balls is still winning everything? Sorry, but if we are in a situation were people improving just gets shrugged off as balance and everything sucks anyway, then Starcraft 2 indeed has a deep problem community-wise.
Was your original post in reply to angry_maia? That's how I interpreted it. If so I don't know why you are so focused on Maru's results. One players results shouldn't be the only thing that changes whether the game looks balanced.
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On April 22 2022 00:42 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2022 21:19 Balnazza wrote:On April 21 2022 12:09 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily... If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues. Maru lost against a zerg and a protoss btw. And no, Maru doesn't need to play his peak to break Zerg dominance, but he needs to play at his peak to beat Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor, when they are at their best. I know some people might oppose to that, but Maru isn't some kind of god that is 10 levels ahead of everyone else. He is a great player, but so are others. At the moment, he isn't bringing his A-game, while people like Creator or RagnaroK really stepped up, kind of like Ryung stepped up during IEM. It happens, you know? Or how does this work? The game is only balanced if Maru playing with one hand on the balls is still winning everything? Sorry, but if we are in a situation were people improving just gets shrugged off as balance and everything sucks anyway, then Starcraft 2 indeed has a deep problem community-wise. Was your original post in reply to angry_maia? That's how I interpreted it. If so I don't know why you are so focused on Maru's results. One players results shouldn't be the only thing that changes whether the game looks balanced.
Players results never really say much about balance, unless you very extreme scenarios. But basing any balance discussion on 10 players is just silly. It is just disrespectful towards RagnaroK and Creator to say their runs are just the result of balance and excuse the performance of Maru like that (Ryung and ByuN are great players, but it isn't that big of an upset if they miss GSL playoffs, that is why I focus on Maru here).
It just urks me that people actually think Maru is that much of a God in the game that he alone is an indicator for balance (aka. if he loses balance is off). He isn't. And when he underperforms like in this group, you can call him out for it.
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On April 22 2022 06:07 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2022 00:42 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 21:19 Balnazza wrote:On April 21 2022 12:09 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily... If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues. Maru lost against a zerg and a protoss btw. And no, Maru doesn't need to play his peak to break Zerg dominance, but he needs to play at his peak to beat Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor, when they are at their best. I know some people might oppose to that, but Maru isn't some kind of god that is 10 levels ahead of everyone else. He is a great player, but so are others. At the moment, he isn't bringing his A-game, while people like Creator or RagnaroK really stepped up, kind of like Ryung stepped up during IEM. It happens, you know? Or how does this work? The game is only balanced if Maru playing with one hand on the balls is still winning everything? Sorry, but if we are in a situation were people improving just gets shrugged off as balance and everything sucks anyway, then Starcraft 2 indeed has a deep problem community-wise. Was your original post in reply to angry_maia? That's how I interpreted it. If so I don't know why you are so focused on Maru's results. One players results shouldn't be the only thing that changes whether the game looks balanced. Players results never really say much about balance, unless you very extreme scenarios. But basing any balance discussion on 10 players is just silly. It is just disrespectful towards RagnaroK and Creator to say their runs are just the result of balance and excuse the performance of Maru like that (Ryung and ByuN are great players, but it isn't that big of an upset if they miss GSL playoffs, that is why I focus on Maru here). It just urks me that people actually think Maru is that much of a God in the game that he alone is an indicator for balance (aka. if he loses balance is off). He isn't. And when he underperforms like in this group, you can call him out for it.
Creator deserves the result. I think it's insane to not acknowledge that Zerg has been doing better than the other races for years now though. Zerg basically never does truly bad in any event. Even when they lose they are inevitably in the top 4 or finals. When is the last time Zerg actually completely missed a tournament playoff? I think you'd have to go back to 2017 to find an example of that. Meanwhile it happens to T/P regularly.
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On April 22 2022 06:39 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2022 06:07 Balnazza wrote:On April 22 2022 00:42 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 21:19 Balnazza wrote:On April 21 2022 12:09 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily... If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues. Maru lost against a zerg and a protoss btw. And no, Maru doesn't need to play his peak to break Zerg dominance, but he needs to play at his peak to beat Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor, when they are at their best. I know some people might oppose to that, but Maru isn't some kind of god that is 10 levels ahead of everyone else. He is a great player, but so are others. At the moment, he isn't bringing his A-game, while people like Creator or RagnaroK really stepped up, kind of like Ryung stepped up during IEM. It happens, you know? Or how does this work? The game is only balanced if Maru playing with one hand on the balls is still winning everything? Sorry, but if we are in a situation were people improving just gets shrugged off as balance and everything sucks anyway, then Starcraft 2 indeed has a deep problem community-wise. Was your original post in reply to angry_maia? That's how I interpreted it. If so I don't know why you are so focused on Maru's results. One players results shouldn't be the only thing that changes whether the game looks balanced. Players results never really say much about balance, unless you very extreme scenarios. But basing any balance discussion on 10 players is just silly. It is just disrespectful towards RagnaroK and Creator to say their runs are just the result of balance and excuse the performance of Maru like that (Ryung and ByuN are great players, but it isn't that big of an upset if they miss GSL playoffs, that is why I focus on Maru here). It just urks me that people actually think Maru is that much of a God in the game that he alone is an indicator for balance (aka. if he loses balance is off). He isn't. And when he underperforms like in this group, you can call him out for it. Creator deserves the result. I think it's insane to not acknowledge that Zerg has been doing better than the other races for years now though. Zerg basically never does truly bad in any event. Even when they lose they are inevitably in the top 4 or finals. When is the last time Zerg actually completely missed a tournament playoff? I think you'd have to go back to 2017 to find an example of that. Meanwhile it happens to T/P regularly.
Zerg is doing fantastic - mostly because it has the most top players left. That is all that there is to say about it. sorry, but neither Serral, Reynor, Rogue or Dark qualify as a "patch zerg". But just both of the top korean zergs missing playoffs would be quite the coincidence. How often did terran miss playoffs completly when Innovation/TY/GuMiho were still around on top of Maru? How often did Protoss miss playoffs when there was Stats on top of herO/Zest/Trap?
I wouldn't say SC2 is "dead" by no means, but it is clear as rain that there isn't much fluctuation with new players anymore. Any player, especially in korea, that retires or drops of, is more or less just a big for his race. Some players step up, but who was the last player with no prior success that had a breakthrough into the top-ranks? Clem/MaxPax in Europe for sure, but in korea?
If Zerg was that overpowered, Armani and Solar shouldn't have dropped out in the first round. Zerg also wouldn't have been the least represented race in GSL, but rather some nonames would have kicked established players left and right. None of that did happen.
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On April 22 2022 15:35 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2022 06:39 JJH777 wrote:On April 22 2022 06:07 Balnazza wrote:On April 22 2022 00:42 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 21:19 Balnazza wrote:On April 21 2022 12:09 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily... If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues. Maru lost against a zerg and a protoss btw. And no, Maru doesn't need to play his peak to break Zerg dominance, but he needs to play at his peak to beat Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor, when they are at their best. I know some people might oppose to that, but Maru isn't some kind of god that is 10 levels ahead of everyone else. He is a great player, but so are others. At the moment, he isn't bringing his A-game, while people like Creator or RagnaroK really stepped up, kind of like Ryung stepped up during IEM. It happens, you know? Or how does this work? The game is only balanced if Maru playing with one hand on the balls is still winning everything? Sorry, but if we are in a situation were people improving just gets shrugged off as balance and everything sucks anyway, then Starcraft 2 indeed has a deep problem community-wise. Was your original post in reply to angry_maia? That's how I interpreted it. If so I don't know why you are so focused on Maru's results. One players results shouldn't be the only thing that changes whether the game looks balanced. Players results never really say much about balance, unless you very extreme scenarios. But basing any balance discussion on 10 players is just silly. It is just disrespectful towards RagnaroK and Creator to say their runs are just the result of balance and excuse the performance of Maru like that (Ryung and ByuN are great players, but it isn't that big of an upset if they miss GSL playoffs, that is why I focus on Maru here). It just urks me that people actually think Maru is that much of a God in the game that he alone is an indicator for balance (aka. if he loses balance is off). He isn't. And when he underperforms like in this group, you can call him out for it. Creator deserves the result. I think it's insane to not acknowledge that Zerg has been doing better than the other races for years now though. Zerg basically never does truly bad in any event. Even when they lose they are inevitably in the top 4 or finals. When is the last time Zerg actually completely missed a tournament playoff? I think you'd have to go back to 2017 to find an example of that. Meanwhile it happens to T/P regularly. Zerg is doing fantastic - mostly because it has the most top players left. That is all that there is to say about it. sorry, but neither Serral, Reynor, Rogue or Dark qualify as a "patch zerg". But just both of the top korean zergs missing playoffs would be quite the coincidence. How often did terran miss playoffs completly when Innovation/TY/GuMiho were still around on top of Maru? How often did Protoss miss playoffs when there was Stats on top of herO/Zest/Trap? I wouldn't say SC2 is "dead" by no means, but it is clear as rain that there isn't much fluctuation with new players anymore. Any player, especially in korea, that retires or drops of, is more or less just a big for his race. Some players step up, but who was the last player with no prior success that had a breakthrough into the top-ranks? Clem/MaxPax in Europe for sure, but in korea? If Zerg was that overpowered, Armani and Solar shouldn't have dropped out in the first round. Zerg also wouldn't have been the least represented race in GSL, but rather some nonames would have kicked established players left and right. None of that did happen.
I just can't hear this 'Zerg players are just better' argument anymore because it's based on the results of those Zergs in the last few years during which Zerg has been overpowered for long periods of time. If you buff Protoss hard right now, in 3 years we could say the same about Protoss players, same with terran.
I don't think Dark / Rogue / Serral / Reynor are patchzergs but their results have clearly been boosted a bit by the state of their race.
Also Zerg has also lost a top Zerg in soO and Stats and INnoVation weren't exactly winning championships before they had to go to military so this argument is a bit disingenious imo
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France12909 Posts
Yeah the argument that "there are just more top zergs" is a bit fallacious since the perception of "who is a top zerg / protoss / terran" is mostly based on the results of said "zerg / protoss / terran"; these results are in turn dependant on the skill / training / form of these players (and their opponents) as well as balance / map pool / meta favoring their playstyle and/or skillset. Since everything is interconnected, it can be tricky to untangle the different factors.
Regardless, it is a bit premature to judge the effect of the patch based on these GSL results alone, DH starting soon could help us have a more precise idea.
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On April 22 2022 18:04 Poopi wrote:
Regardless, it is a bit premature to judge the effect of the patch based on these GSL results alone, DH starting soon could help us have a more precise idea.
That's true, for sure. But we already have the qualifiers of KoB, and those do not paint a pretty picture either so far, with more than half Zergs.
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On April 22 2022 17:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2022 15:35 Balnazza wrote:On April 22 2022 06:39 JJH777 wrote:On April 22 2022 06:07 Balnazza wrote:On April 22 2022 00:42 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 21:19 Balnazza wrote:On April 21 2022 12:09 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily... If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues. Maru lost against a zerg and a protoss btw. And no, Maru doesn't need to play his peak to break Zerg dominance, but he needs to play at his peak to beat Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor, when they are at their best. I know some people might oppose to that, but Maru isn't some kind of god that is 10 levels ahead of everyone else. He is a great player, but so are others. At the moment, he isn't bringing his A-game, while people like Creator or RagnaroK really stepped up, kind of like Ryung stepped up during IEM. It happens, you know? Or how does this work? The game is only balanced if Maru playing with one hand on the balls is still winning everything? Sorry, but if we are in a situation were people improving just gets shrugged off as balance and everything sucks anyway, then Starcraft 2 indeed has a deep problem community-wise. Was your original post in reply to angry_maia? That's how I interpreted it. If so I don't know why you are so focused on Maru's results. One players results shouldn't be the only thing that changes whether the game looks balanced. Players results never really say much about balance, unless you very extreme scenarios. But basing any balance discussion on 10 players is just silly. It is just disrespectful towards RagnaroK and Creator to say their runs are just the result of balance and excuse the performance of Maru like that (Ryung and ByuN are great players, but it isn't that big of an upset if they miss GSL playoffs, that is why I focus on Maru here). It just urks me that people actually think Maru is that much of a God in the game that he alone is an indicator for balance (aka. if he loses balance is off). He isn't. And when he underperforms like in this group, you can call him out for it. Creator deserves the result. I think it's insane to not acknowledge that Zerg has been doing better than the other races for years now though. Zerg basically never does truly bad in any event. Even when they lose they are inevitably in the top 4 or finals. When is the last time Zerg actually completely missed a tournament playoff? I think you'd have to go back to 2017 to find an example of that. Meanwhile it happens to T/P regularly. Zerg is doing fantastic - mostly because it has the most top players left. That is all that there is to say about it. sorry, but neither Serral, Reynor, Rogue or Dark qualify as a "patch zerg". But just both of the top korean zergs missing playoffs would be quite the coincidence. How often did terran miss playoffs completly when Innovation/TY/GuMiho were still around on top of Maru? How often did Protoss miss playoffs when there was Stats on top of herO/Zest/Trap? I wouldn't say SC2 is "dead" by no means, but it is clear as rain that there isn't much fluctuation with new players anymore. Any player, especially in korea, that retires or drops of, is more or less just a big for his race. Some players step up, but who was the last player with no prior success that had a breakthrough into the top-ranks? Clem/MaxPax in Europe for sure, but in korea? If Zerg was that overpowered, Armani and Solar shouldn't have dropped out in the first round. Zerg also wouldn't have been the least represented race in GSL, but rather some nonames would have kicked established players left and right. None of that did happen. I just can't hear this 'Zerg players are just better' argument anymore because it's based on the results of those Zergs in the last few years during which Zerg has been overpowered for long periods of time. If you buff Protoss hard right now, in 3 years we could say the same about Protoss players, same with terran. I don't think Dark / Rogue / Serral / Reynor are patchzergs but their results have clearly been boosted a bit by the state of their race. Also Zerg has also lost a top Zerg in soO and Stats and INnoVation weren't exactly winning championships before they had to go to military so this argument is a bit disingenious imo
But we are not talking about "boosted results". We are apparently only talking about "lul, Zerg not beatable, otherwise Maru would win everything". It just is completly unjustified that apparently your achievements are only worth something when you are terran. I mean, just take this thread. It is neither about what an underperformance Maru delievered nor the great uprise (re-uprise?) of Creator - it is about how everything is only balance, no personal skill involved whatsoever.
And I really, really, just hate that. Especially since the same people wouldn't make a peep if Maru would just win everything. Terran OP? Nah, he is just Flash 2.0!
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On April 22 2022 18:43 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2022 17:34 Charoisaur wrote:On April 22 2022 15:35 Balnazza wrote:On April 22 2022 06:39 JJH777 wrote:On April 22 2022 06:07 Balnazza wrote:On April 22 2022 00:42 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 21:19 Balnazza wrote:On April 21 2022 12:09 JJH777 wrote:On April 21 2022 09:09 Balnazza wrote:
Weird idea, but Maru could also just play better, would solve that problem quite easily... If Maru playing at his peak level is the only thing stopping Zerg dominance in everything then there are some serious issues. Maru lost against a zerg and a protoss btw. And no, Maru doesn't need to play his peak to break Zerg dominance, but he needs to play at his peak to beat Dark, Rogue, Serral and Reynor, when they are at their best. I know some people might oppose to that, but Maru isn't some kind of god that is 10 levels ahead of everyone else. He is a great player, but so are others. At the moment, he isn't bringing his A-game, while people like Creator or RagnaroK really stepped up, kind of like Ryung stepped up during IEM. It happens, you know? Or how does this work? The game is only balanced if Maru playing with one hand on the balls is still winning everything? Sorry, but if we are in a situation were people improving just gets shrugged off as balance and everything sucks anyway, then Starcraft 2 indeed has a deep problem community-wise. Was your original post in reply to angry_maia? That's how I interpreted it. If so I don't know why you are so focused on Maru's results. One players results shouldn't be the only thing that changes whether the game looks balanced. Players results never really say much about balance, unless you very extreme scenarios. But basing any balance discussion on 10 players is just silly. It is just disrespectful towards RagnaroK and Creator to say their runs are just the result of balance and excuse the performance of Maru like that (Ryung and ByuN are great players, but it isn't that big of an upset if they miss GSL playoffs, that is why I focus on Maru here). It just urks me that people actually think Maru is that much of a God in the game that he alone is an indicator for balance (aka. if he loses balance is off). He isn't. And when he underperforms like in this group, you can call him out for it. Creator deserves the result. I think it's insane to not acknowledge that Zerg has been doing better than the other races for years now though. Zerg basically never does truly bad in any event. Even when they lose they are inevitably in the top 4 or finals. When is the last time Zerg actually completely missed a tournament playoff? I think you'd have to go back to 2017 to find an example of that. Meanwhile it happens to T/P regularly. Zerg is doing fantastic - mostly because it has the most top players left. That is all that there is to say about it. sorry, but neither Serral, Reynor, Rogue or Dark qualify as a "patch zerg". But just both of the top korean zergs missing playoffs would be quite the coincidence. How often did terran miss playoffs completly when Innovation/TY/GuMiho were still around on top of Maru? How often did Protoss miss playoffs when there was Stats on top of herO/Zest/Trap? I wouldn't say SC2 is "dead" by no means, but it is clear as rain that there isn't much fluctuation with new players anymore. Any player, especially in korea, that retires or drops of, is more or less just a big for his race. Some players step up, but who was the last player with no prior success that had a breakthrough into the top-ranks? Clem/MaxPax in Europe for sure, but in korea? If Zerg was that overpowered, Armani and Solar shouldn't have dropped out in the first round. Zerg also wouldn't have been the least represented race in GSL, but rather some nonames would have kicked established players left and right. None of that did happen. I just can't hear this 'Zerg players are just better' argument anymore because it's based on the results of those Zergs in the last few years during which Zerg has been overpowered for long periods of time. If you buff Protoss hard right now, in 3 years we could say the same about Protoss players, same with terran. I don't think Dark / Rogue / Serral / Reynor are patchzergs but their results have clearly been boosted a bit by the state of their race. Also Zerg has also lost a top Zerg in soO and Stats and INnoVation weren't exactly winning championships before they had to go to military so this argument is a bit disingenious imo But we are not talking about "boosted results". We are apparently only talking about "lul, Zerg not beatable, otherwise Maru would win everything". It just is completly unjustified that apparently your achievements are only worth something when you are terran. I mean, just take this thread. It is neither about what an underperformance Maru delievered nor the great uprise (re-uprise?) of Creator - it is about how everything is only balance, no personal skill involved whatsoever. And I really, really, just hate that. Especially since the same people wouldn't make a peep if Maru would just win everything. Terran OP? Nah, he is just Flash 2.0!
Well if it's just one guy winning everything and the rest of the race would be doing mediocre it would be a different scenario.
But I agree with you that we shouldn't focus on balance this much and dismiss player achievements.
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EPT
