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On March 10 2022 00:44 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2022 23:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 09 2022 08:39 honorablemacroterran wrote:On March 09 2022 04:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:
lol Are you upset? No, just disappointed that this is all they came up with. It imo won't do much to truly help potential balance concerns and it certainly doesn't do much to bring in a fresh experience either. The former ofc remains to be seen, it's mostly conjecture at this point, the latter is probably outside this "team's" reach, arguably the more important aspect to keep people playing though. It's at least nice to see that there is potential for new patches, but this one doesn't get me excited. Disagree, people are really down playing the Queen nerf when it more or less deletes Queen walks from the game. That has huge implications for Protoss. Being able to more reliably secure a third is a huge buff to Protoss in the match up.
Well as i said, it remains to be seen how this really develops, i certainly can see that no queen walks removes one big threat for protoss, i am just not convinced that it'll be enough to truly work out matchup problems, even with the lurker change in mind.
But what is imo more important is delivering a fresh way of playing the game with patches, something to truly get people excited about the game, give room for experimentation, etc. That's partly on maps, but there i also don't see any bigger movements towards that.
It's simply a little disappointing to see sc2 go into this mode of operation where one cannot expect any real shakeup whatsoever, though it ofc makes sense from blizzard's business perspective, and one cannot expect too much from this community team either for obvious reasons.
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On March 10 2022 00:44 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2022 14:16 angry_maia wrote:On March 09 2022 11:50 TossHeroes wrote:
Oh look another patch with more Toss nerf lol
Void ray more expensive, sure Toss can live with that
DT and battery nerf? Just so the terran fanboys stop crying?
1500min 1500 gas commitment just for a “chance” to kill a 550 planetary?
do you think harstem is biased against toss? I don't know about Harstem but we can see how this patch feels about the races. Terran: we love the gameplay. You guys rule. Keep doing what you do. Zerg: we love the gameplay except queen walks are stupid. Let's make the race slightly weaker, also don't do queen walks. Protoss: we see that you were doing a bunch of things that we don't like. You would still lose the game most of the time with those options but, nothing there's no but, we'll just remove those options. It'll be fine. Just be skillful like us.
Wait what -- this patch is i think clearly a buff in high level PvZ for P. Watch Lambo's video about the reason P plays skytoss, and we know from watching serral dunk on every toss in existence that at the highest level of play, late game skytoss just isn't it.
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So you think that they made non-Skytoss builds more viable?
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I don't think this does anything to change the core issue--the Zerg macro mechanic is overpowered.
The queen nerf should help Protoss and Terran bridge the gap at the highest level though and we should see some more Terran and Protoss champions.
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Northern Ireland26503 Posts
On March 10 2022 01:33 angry_maia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2022 00:44 Nebuchad wrote:On March 09 2022 14:16 angry_maia wrote:On March 09 2022 11:50 TossHeroes wrote:
Oh look another patch with more Toss nerf lol
Void ray more expensive, sure Toss can live with that
DT and battery nerf? Just so the terran fanboys stop crying?
1500min 1500 gas commitment just for a “chance” to kill a 550 planetary?
do you think harstem is biased against toss? I don't know about Harstem but we can see how this patch feels about the races. Terran: we love the gameplay. You guys rule. Keep doing what you do. Zerg: we love the gameplay except queen walks are stupid. Let's make the race slightly weaker, also don't do queen walks. Protoss: we see that you were doing a bunch of things that we don't like. You would still lose the game most of the time with those options but, nothing there's no but, we'll just remove those options. It'll be fine. Just be skillful like us. Wait what -- this patch is i think clearly a buff in high level PvZ for P. Watch Lambo's video about the reason P plays skytoss, and we know from watching serral dunk on every toss in existence that at the highest level of play, late game skytoss just isn't it.
Did we watch the same video?
Lambo’s reason for saying Toss play Skytoss isn’t purely a compositional thing, it’s a transitional flow and timing thing as well.
Void builds got tightened and refined so they are the catch-all, safe builds against most of what Zergs can throw at you in early aggression.
You have Voids pushing back overlords and sharking, they pump out a lot of DPS and they’re super mobile at bouncing between the first three Toss bases in a way ground forces aren’t. You’re safe to expand quickly against most frontal busts and you’re safe against attempts to plop nydus’ in your bases if you’re paying attention.
To my knowledge, no Robo or Twilight/Templar tech opener is nearly as versatile and as strong as a catch-all solid opener.
If you already have a void fleet intact, and multiple Stargates, plus some air ups the natural transition is to Skytoss
Protoss’ catch-all opener is now nerfed against anything other than Queen walks, although to what degree that’s impactful remains to be seen.
Batteries are also weaker. There are certain positions where a Protoss will have some stretched between bases, and out of Nexus range, so they can control the threat of a Zerg bust rotating around defences. Some pushes will almost certainly be tougher to hold. I think this was a necessary change.
A few changes are good because they cut some real bullshit out. DT blink, Queen walks, battery cheeses. IMO these are silly mechanics, I’m down.
Protoss doesn’t really have anything that’s a buff to make ground stronger though. At all. PvZ in a nutshell:
1. Stop the Zerg growth through the ability to pressure and contain.
2. Turtle defensively and tech hard while being safe so despite Zerg growth you get up a comp and upgrades that you have a standing fleet that’s so strong that Zerg growth isn’t as important.
3. Cheese
Skytoss is number 2, in a nutshell, and is weaker minus the notable exception of Queen walks. 3 is weaker outright. 1, enabling ground toss to be more dynamic is just not a thing with this patch at all.
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On March 10 2022 01:33 angry_maia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2022 00:44 Nebuchad wrote:On March 09 2022 14:16 angry_maia wrote:On March 09 2022 11:50 TossHeroes wrote:
Oh look another patch with more Toss nerf lol
Void ray more expensive, sure Toss can live with that
DT and battery nerf? Just so the terran fanboys stop crying?
1500min 1500 gas commitment just for a “chance” to kill a 550 planetary?
do you think harstem is biased against toss? I don't know about Harstem but we can see how this patch feels about the races. Terran: we love the gameplay. You guys rule. Keep doing what you do. Zerg: we love the gameplay except queen walks are stupid. Let's make the race slightly weaker, also don't do queen walks. Protoss: we see that you were doing a bunch of things that we don't like. You would still lose the game most of the time with those options but, nothing there's no but, we'll just remove those options. It'll be fine. Just be skillful like us. Wait what -- this patch is i think clearly a buff in high level PvZ for P. Watch Lambo's video about the reason P plays skytoss, and we know from watching serral dunk on every toss in existence that at the highest level of play, late game skytoss just isn't it.
I didn't argue that it wasn't a buff for PvZ. It is, queen walks were strong. My point still stands, and if protoss isn't still by far the worst race after this patch, then you will get to say that I was wrong about it.
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On March 10 2022 02:16 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2022 01:33 angry_maia wrote:On March 10 2022 00:44 Nebuchad wrote:On March 09 2022 14:16 angry_maia wrote:On March 09 2022 11:50 TossHeroes wrote:
Oh look another patch with more Toss nerf lol
Void ray more expensive, sure Toss can live with that
DT and battery nerf? Just so the terran fanboys stop crying?
1500min 1500 gas commitment just for a “chance” to kill a 550 planetary?
do you think harstem is biased against toss? I don't know about Harstem but we can see how this patch feels about the races. Terran: we love the gameplay. You guys rule. Keep doing what you do. Zerg: we love the gameplay except queen walks are stupid. Let's make the race slightly weaker, also don't do queen walks. Protoss: we see that you were doing a bunch of things that we don't like. You would still lose the game most of the time with those options but, nothing there's no but, we'll just remove those options. It'll be fine. Just be skillful like us. Wait what -- this patch is i think clearly a buff in high level PvZ for P. Watch Lambo's video about the reason P plays skytoss, and we know from watching serral dunk on every toss in existence that at the highest level of play, late game skytoss just isn't it. Did we watch the same video? Lambo’s reason for saying Toss play Skytoss isn’t purely a compositional thing, it’s a transitional flow and timing thing as well. Void builds got tightened and refined so they are the catch-all, safe builds against most of what Zergs can throw at you in early aggression. You have Voids pushing back overlords and sharking, they pump out a lot of DPS and they’re super mobile at bouncing between the first three Toss bases in a way ground forces aren’t. You’re safe to expand quickly against most frontal busts and you’re safe against attempts to plop nydus’ in your bases if you’re paying attention. To my knowledge, no Robo or Twilight/Templar tech opener is nearly as versatile and as strong as a catch-all solid opener. If you already have a void fleet intact, and multiple Stargates, plus some air ups the natural transition is to Skytoss Protoss’ catch-all opener is now nerfed against anything other than Queen walks, although to what degree that’s impactful remains to be seen. Batteries are also weaker. There are certain positions where a Protoss will have some stretched between bases, and out of Nexus range, so they can control the threat of a Zerg bust rotating around defences. Some pushes will almost certainly be tougher to hold. I think this was a necessary change. A few changes are good because they cut some real bullshit out. DT blink, Queen walks, battery cheeses. IMO these are silly mechanics, I’m down. Protoss doesn’t really have anything that’s a buff to make ground stronger though. At all. PvZ in a nutshell: 1. Stop the Zerg growth through the ability to pressure and contain. 2. Turtle defensively and tech hard while being safe so despite Zerg growth you get up a comp and upgrades that you have a standing fleet that’s so strong that Zerg growth isn’t as important. 3. Cheese Skytoss is number 2, in a nutshell, and is weaker minus the notable exception of Queen walks. 3 is weaker outright. 1, enabling ground toss to be more dynamic is just not a thing with this patch at all.
I completely agree that it is a transitional thing, and I thought that this patch greatly assists in this. I thought Lambo said that the reason toss cannot open into ground is because of queen walks on the third -- this is no longer an issue.
While the void ray opening is nerfed into maybe not existing, this is fine -- P can open oracle into ground toss safely. Furthermore, this opens the door to ground comp mid/late games. P ground can fight okay against lurkers, and moreover if Z takes the time to tech into lurkers this lets P get skytoss out.
For these reasons, I feel like P is just going to do better against Z at the highest levels.
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Northern Ireland26503 Posts
On March 10 2022 02:25 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2022 01:33 angry_maia wrote:On March 10 2022 00:44 Nebuchad wrote:On March 09 2022 14:16 angry_maia wrote:On March 09 2022 11:50 TossHeroes wrote:
Oh look another patch with more Toss nerf lol
Void ray more expensive, sure Toss can live with that
DT and battery nerf? Just so the terran fanboys stop crying?
1500min 1500 gas commitment just for a “chance” to kill a 550 planetary?
do you think harstem is biased against toss? I don't know about Harstem but we can see how this patch feels about the races. Terran: we love the gameplay. You guys rule. Keep doing what you do. Zerg: we love the gameplay except queen walks are stupid. Let's make the race slightly weaker, also don't do queen walks. Protoss: we see that you were doing a bunch of things that we don't like. You would still lose the game most of the time with those options but, nothing there's no but, we'll just remove those options. It'll be fine. Just be skillful like us. Wait what -- this patch is i think clearly a buff in high level PvZ for P. Watch Lambo's video about the reason P plays skytoss, and we know from watching serral dunk on every toss in existence that at the highest level of play, late game skytoss just isn't it. I didn't argue that it wasn't a buff for PvZ. It is. My point still stands, and if protoss isn't still by far the worst race after this patch, then you will get to say that I was wrong about it.
Did anyone take your Katowice bet incidentally haha?
Its like half of a good patch. They neutered some silly, infuriating gimmicky aspects of the game state.
The general feel of Protoss players (here at least) seems to be cutting the floor and the bullshit to some degree, giving more ceiling potential for good players to really push things.
If this was an essay I was marking my feedback would be ‘A grade on this first topic, good work, good suggestions. Unfortunately you appear to have not answered the second question at all.’
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On March 10 2022 02:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2022 02:25 Nebuchad wrote:On March 10 2022 01:33 angry_maia wrote:On March 10 2022 00:44 Nebuchad wrote:On March 09 2022 14:16 angry_maia wrote:On March 09 2022 11:50 TossHeroes wrote:
Oh look another patch with more Toss nerf lol
Void ray more expensive, sure Toss can live with that
DT and battery nerf? Just so the terran fanboys stop crying?
1500min 1500 gas commitment just for a “chance” to kill a 550 planetary?
do you think harstem is biased against toss? I don't know about Harstem but we can see how this patch feels about the races. Terran: we love the gameplay. You guys rule. Keep doing what you do. Zerg: we love the gameplay except queen walks are stupid. Let's make the race slightly weaker, also don't do queen walks. Protoss: we see that you were doing a bunch of things that we don't like. You would still lose the game most of the time with those options but, nothing there's no but, we'll just remove those options. It'll be fine. Just be skillful like us. Wait what -- this patch is i think clearly a buff in high level PvZ for P. Watch Lambo's video about the reason P plays skytoss, and we know from watching serral dunk on every toss in existence that at the highest level of play, late game skytoss just isn't it. I didn't argue that it wasn't a buff for PvZ. It is. My point still stands, and if protoss isn't still by far the worst race after this patch, then you will get to say that I was wrong about it. Did anyone take your Katowice bet incidentally haha?
Yes but we had a clause that it would be voided in case of a patch, which makes sense, so it's voided now.
I could take another bet I guess but I'm not as confident that protoss will be weak as I was before, so I wouldn't give 10 to 1 this time, probably like 6 to 1 or something like that.
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P should do better just because people don't know what to do. Then Zerg will figure out how to counter everything and it will go back to being gad.
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Northern Ireland26503 Posts
On March 10 2022 02:30 angry_maia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2022 02:16 WombaT wrote:On March 10 2022 01:33 angry_maia wrote:On March 10 2022 00:44 Nebuchad wrote:On March 09 2022 14:16 angry_maia wrote:On March 09 2022 11:50 TossHeroes wrote:
Oh look another patch with more Toss nerf lol
Void ray more expensive, sure Toss can live with that
DT and battery nerf? Just so the terran fanboys stop crying?
1500min 1500 gas commitment just for a “chance” to kill a 550 planetary?
do you think harstem is biased against toss? I don't know about Harstem but we can see how this patch feels about the races. Terran: we love the gameplay. You guys rule. Keep doing what you do. Zerg: we love the gameplay except queen walks are stupid. Let's make the race slightly weaker, also don't do queen walks. Protoss: we see that you were doing a bunch of things that we don't like. You would still lose the game most of the time with those options but, nothing there's no but, we'll just remove those options. It'll be fine. Just be skillful like us. Wait what -- this patch is i think clearly a buff in high level PvZ for P. Watch Lambo's video about the reason P plays skytoss, and we know from watching serral dunk on every toss in existence that at the highest level of play, late game skytoss just isn't it. Did we watch the same video? Lambo’s reason for saying Toss play Skytoss isn’t purely a compositional thing, it’s a transitional flow and timing thing as well. Void builds got tightened and refined so they are the catch-all, safe builds against most of what Zergs can throw at you in early aggression. You have Voids pushing back overlords and sharking, they pump out a lot of DPS and they’re super mobile at bouncing between the first three Toss bases in a way ground forces aren’t. You’re safe to expand quickly against most frontal busts and you’re safe against attempts to plop nydus’ in your bases if you’re paying attention. To my knowledge, no Robo or Twilight/Templar tech opener is nearly as versatile and as strong as a catch-all solid opener. If you already have a void fleet intact, and multiple Stargates, plus some air ups the natural transition is to Skytoss Protoss’ catch-all opener is now nerfed against anything other than Queen walks, although to what degree that’s impactful remains to be seen. Batteries are also weaker. There are certain positions where a Protoss will have some stretched between bases, and out of Nexus range, so they can control the threat of a Zerg bust rotating around defences. Some pushes will almost certainly be tougher to hold. I think this was a necessary change. A few changes are good because they cut some real bullshit out. DT blink, Queen walks, battery cheeses. IMO these are silly mechanics, I’m down. Protoss doesn’t really have anything that’s a buff to make ground stronger though. At all. PvZ in a nutshell: 1. Stop the Zerg growth through the ability to pressure and contain. 2. Turtle defensively and tech hard while being safe so despite Zerg growth you get up a comp and upgrades that you have a standing fleet that’s so strong that Zerg growth isn’t as important. 3. Cheese Skytoss is number 2, in a nutshell, and is weaker minus the notable exception of Queen walks. 3 is weaker outright. 1, enabling ground toss to be more dynamic is just not a thing with this patch at all. I completely agree that it is a transitional thing, and I thought that this patch greatly assists in this. I thought Lambo said that the reason toss cannot open into ground is because of queen walks on the third -- this is no longer an issue. While the void ray opening is nerfed into maybe not existing, this is fine -- P can open oracle into ground toss safely. Furthermore, this opens the door to ground comp mid/late games. P ground can fight okay against lurkers, and moreover if Z takes the time to tech into lurkers this lets P get skytoss out. For these reasons, I feel like P is just going to do better against Z at the highest levels.
Going back a bit further, we had a really brief Robo-centric meta, then that period where Stats and Serral especially had a fun and pretty even rivalry, where Stats was leaning really hard on oracle play.
Those seemed pretty figured out by top Zergs as time passed, there are flaws in those kind of openings. It remains to be seen now this patch actually plays out absolutely, no substitute from tons of skilled players and minds pushing for advantages over time.
Aside from committing to a Queen walk, multi SG Void openers were never really figured out. Zergs certainly got better at killing Protoss overall by playing better, but the opening was pretty rock solid.
I don’t personally like SG into Skytoss, but it’s neutering Protoss’ best stable opening against Zerg, they have other nerfs and not a huge amount to compensate.
In most other matchups there are builds and openers that are very stable. Not invincible, not necessarily pushing the limits of your advantage, but taking you into mid and lategame reliably in a pretty strong spot.
Void openers certainly ticked that box. Oracle into various transitions may well reliably do this, or something else people figure out that works, and the Zerg hive mind doesn’t pick apart.
What players figure out, and indeed what future map pools look like mean most of this is still to be seen either way.
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While that's a good analysis, you're slightly overselling Skytoss. It wasn't some great build Protoss did because it was so strong. They went that build because everything else was terrible.
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IMO a good way to meaningfully buff protoss - and this idea was mentioned many times in a few threads here - would be to nerf warp a bit (unit warp speed outside of Nexus/GW range maybe?) and buff 1-2 gateway units a bit.
So you could still warp units inside opponent's main or to flank or to defend at home - but it would take more time so if your opponents react in time they can defend it better.
We need stronger Gateway units but it's obviously impossible without nerfing warp in some significant way.
And I think Lurkers also need a movement speed nerf (i.e. make Adaptive Talons less effective).
They are way too fast and nimble for supposedly siege units.
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I think queen nerf (no transfuse out of creep) will make cannon/bunker rush so much more powerful...Sometimes u just need to tank dmg with queens and transfuses while attacking with lings. Now it will be inpossible, as often this defence is happening out of creep.
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Northern Ireland26503 Posts
On March 10 2022 03:49 Jerubaal wrote:
While that's a good analysis, you're slightly overselling Skytoss. It wasn't some great build Protoss did because it was so strong. They went that build because everything else was terrible.
That was basically what I was saying, albeit more diplomatically haha.
Without Skytoss, or at least the openings being weakened and with not a huge amount of other tweaks elsewhere, and no actual Protoss buffs.
Hm, I dunno Kev, getting horrific flashbacks to the times of Trap getting absolutely smacked in GSL finals and Zest doing his ‘I have a new build I’ll win until people adjust’ thing at Katowice.
Top Zergs have already figured out Oracle openers, bloody ages ago. Robo-centric openings can work but have huge exploitable holes where you can just die.
I would enjoy being proven wrong on this, but I’m currently extremely skeptical we’ll see any improvements in PvZ, indeed I think it will get worse.
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This really just feels like a "see we did do a patch" gesture instead of a well thought out change to the game. Disappointed but it is what it is at this point.
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Remember that everyone has their own idea of which set of changes is needed.
What one person thinks would be great for the game, someone else would call biased rubbish.
This is not the last patch, according to Harstem, so gradual changes might be better than radical ones.
I.e. if they see it wasn't enough, they may add more changes later.
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On March 10 2022 04:53 Moonerz wrote:
This really just feels like a "see we did do a patch" gesture instead of a well thought out change to the game. Disappointed but it is what it is at this point.
Well I think they swiped at all the low hanging fruit. I'm curious as to what they might tackle next.
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Wow, I love all those suggestions <3
Only the queen one not. Would love to see the queen quantity to be depended to the hatchery quantity instead. Like maximum two queens per hatch. Or one queen per hatch but buff her.
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Two suggestions for actually improving PvZ:
1. Nerf larval inject so that Zerg has to build macro hatches even if they aren't Dark, thus slowing the Zerg macro snowball.
2. Make Time Warp speed friendly ground units attack and movement speeds, thus making late game ground and the Mothership less terrible.
Trying to keep these in the realm of "very easy and simple to implement" which is probably all that will happen with this patch.
Edit:
On March 10 2022 06:15 Big-t wrote:
Wow, I love all those suggestions <3
Only the queen one not. Would love to see the queen quantity to be depended to the hatchery quantity instead. Like maximum two queens per hatch. Or one queen per hatch but buff her.
Might work with just having the Queen cost Larva rather than build directly from the Hatchery, so that there's more of a cost to getting them out.
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EPT
