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On March 15 2022 04:15 Railgan wrote:
I love that we have a council of Pro-Players enact the Balance Changes they think are the best.
Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them.
Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene.
Somebody should write a movie on this.
Pro players are not enlightened, mystical beings. Do you think pros are immune to misperceptions based on what they find annoying? Did you really think that people who mock the lower leagues for complaining about "imbalance" were actually unbiased when it came to their own play? While I think most people mostly think the patch has a lot of decent changes, it's really hard not to look at it as a political document. It's hard not to look at the Queen and Void Ray nerfs as not being a matching set. And they nerfed the WM because, well, they had to nerf something. We've also heard enough from pros the last few months to know that some of them are really fanny-bothered about how many Protoss are in GM and about losing to who they consider to be "lesser" players.
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On March 15 2022 10:26 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 04:15 Railgan wrote:
I love that we have a council of Pro-Players enact the Balance Changes they think are the best.
Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them.
Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene.
Somebody should write a movie on this. Pro players are not enlightened, mystical beings. Do you think pros are immune to misperceptions based on what they find annoying? Did you really think that people who mock the lower leagues for complaining about "imbalance" were actually unbiased when it came to their own play? While I think most people mostly think the patch has a lot of decent changes, it's really hard not to look at it as a political document. It's hard not to look at the Queen and Void Ray nerfs as not being a matching set. And they nerfed the WM because, well, they had to nerf something. We've also heard enough from pros the last few months to know that some of them are really fanny-bothered about how many Protoss are in GM and about losing to who they consider to be "lesser" players.
Yeah, design/balance by committee is not a good solution either. It would help divert blame though.
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On March 15 2022 04:15 Railgan wrote:
I love that we have a council of Pro-Players enact the Balance Changes they think are the best.
Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them.
Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene.
Somebody should write a movie on this.
You played zerg dude how are you going to post like this. You like the patch because it most likely keeps your players on top and you realize that, don't project your feelings onto us.
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On March 15 2022 04:15 Railgan wrote:
I love that we have a council of Pro-Players enact the Balance Changes they think are the best.
Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them.
Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene.
Somebody should write a movie on this.
Appeal to authority.
Appeal to authority.
Imputation of motives.
Snarky comment.
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On March 15 2022 11:09 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 04:15 Railgan wrote:
I love that we have a council of Pro-Players enact the Balance Changes they think are the best.
Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them.
Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene.
Somebody should write a movie on this. You played zerg dude how are you going to post like this. You like the patch because it most likely keeps your players on top and you realize that, don't project your feelings onto us.
Sir, have you even played the game this week/today/yesterday in 1v1? Have you even played other races?
Do you even play at a level where you can think you understand balance? Be honest.
By hiding your feelings under false pretenses that you care about balance more even though you write 10 paragraph at least about your protoss love. At this point you have to pick one. You either care about your race in ladder more or about the pro balance.
Either way, judging by what's said by pro protoss players that were part of this patch, they want the race to be able to bring out their maximum potential.
However, if you have ladder players overperform multiple times over their punching weight and pro players suffering cause the race noticeably has a low "potential", we have to make changes.
Future patches are surely gonna continue making changes to further improve the situation.
As multiple pros have already stated, there's a process already in place where there's good communication and discussion between pros and blizzard developer(s).
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On March 14 2022 19:50 Beelzebub1 wrote:
^ Did you guys conveniently forget that Queen walks were more or less deleted from the game? Protoss will now be able to secure their fast third bases after opening Oracle essentially for free now, that has huge implications for PvZ, not sure how you can't see that. Queen walks were a response to a greedy play, now Protoss get's to be greedy much easier.
Not saying Protoss didn't need help in PvZ because of course they did, but still, the Queen nerf is massive.
"Widowmine nerf: I mean it helps, non drill widowmines are already winning games for Terrans they have no business winning anyway , looks good on paper don't really feel like it will be that impactful as a whole for the matchup."
Exactly how everyone feels about proxy battery void ray cheese, down to the letter.
Agree about Lurkers though, this new balance council needs to really be paying attention to that unit in particular. Personally I think Adapative Talons needs to be nerfed further or removed entirely (I'm a 3.5K Zerg) but I think they are scared to really bring the nerf hammer down on the Lurker because Ghosts already own them so fucking hard.
I'd also prefer if the balance council started looking more into the Viper, Abduct was necessary back in the day to break up deathballs but Zerg have advanced greatly on fighting Protoss in the late game. Some type of change to Abduct I think would be healthy for the game, it's too effective against high value units in general imo.
- Make Abduct cost 50 energy
Simple, appropriate, would make Zergs have to choose between Abducting or using the other 2 of the Vipers insanely powerful spells.
But yea, to sit here and cry about Protoss cheese nerfs like Protoss got zero compensation is wrong. Protoss did get a buff through a Zerg nerf, and it was a big nerf especially at the top level which is obviously who this patch is meant for.
The queen nerf is not massive what so ever, do you know how many options zerg have vs Protoss currently? if you think its hard for Zerg to read Protoss all inns , try reading when a zerg is gonna do a timing on you , its near impossible because you can't know what is being produced by zerg until it pops out of the eggs, Protoss you can read the incoming timing sometimes minutes before it even hits, and by then protoss changed their plan and play from behind because they got scouted, Protoss is the only race in the game that will basically have an auto loss when getting scouted because there is no middle way for protoss, you are either very greedy or very committed to a timing or all inn that must do damage or kill. Why do you think people think "Protoss players are so bad" , its cuss the game basically is designed and balanced that way right now and its really bad but noone seems to understand it. At Pro level players play of information at such an insane level most people can't even comprehend , this interaction of information war between the races Protoss is severaly underpowered and I am baffled noone else can see this, it is actually insane noone can recognize this simple fact.
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On March 15 2022 22:12 syndbg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 11:09 Nebuchad wrote:On March 15 2022 04:15 Railgan wrote:
I love that we have a council of Pro-Players enact the Balance Changes they think are the best.
Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them.
Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene.
Somebody should write a movie on this. You played zerg dude how are you going to post like this. You like the patch because it most likely keeps your players on top and you realize that, don't project your feelings onto us. Either way, judging by what's said by pro protoss players that were part of this patch, they want the race to be able to bring out their maximum potential. However, if you have ladder players overperform multiple times over their punching weight and pro players suffering cause the race noticeably has a low "potential", we have to make changes.Future patches are surely gonna continue making changes to further improve the situation. As multiple pros have already stated, there's a process already in place where there's good communication and discussion between pros and blizzard developer(s).
You're not doing a lot to dispel the notion that the P nerfs weren't motivated by pride and ego.
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On March 15 2022 22:57 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 22:12 syndbg wrote:On March 15 2022 11:09 Nebuchad wrote:On March 15 2022 04:15 Railgan wrote:
I love that we have a council of Pro-Players enact the Balance Changes they think are the best.
Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them.
Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene.
Somebody should write a movie on this. You played zerg dude how are you going to post like this. You like the patch because it most likely keeps your players on top and you realize that, don't project your feelings onto us. Either way, judging by what's said by pro protoss players that were part of this patch, they want the race to be able to bring out their maximum potential. However, if you have ladder players overperform multiple times over their punching weight and pro players suffering cause the race noticeably has a low "potential", we have to make changes.Future patches are surely gonna continue making changes to further improve the situation. As multiple pros have already stated, there's a process already in place where there's good communication and discussion between pros and blizzard developer(s). You're not doing a lot to dispel the notion that the P nerfs weren't motivated by pride and ego.
Who's ego though? I don't think the pros aren't aware that there's a pretty significant race imbalance at the top levels that doesn't exist lower. They're just trying to thread the needle.
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On March 15 2022 22:12 syndbg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2022 11:09 Nebuchad wrote:On March 15 2022 04:15 Railgan wrote:
I love that we have a council of Pro-Players enact the Balance Changes they think are the best.
Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them.
Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene.
Somebody should write a movie on this. You played zerg dude how are you going to post like this. You like the patch because it most likely keeps your players on top and you realize that, don't project your feelings onto us. However, if you have ladder players overperform multiple times over their punching weight and pro players suffering cause the race noticeably has a low "potential", we have to make changes.
This would be fine, except that's not the reality. They only touched the "overperform" stuff and did nothing for the "low potential" stuff.
This speaks to their mindset, and people keep mentioning Harstem, I watch Harstem so I know it's his mindset as well. They aren't very sure that protoss is underperforming at high level. Maybe all protosses just suck, or get unlucky. This isn't a patch that is designed to improve the experience of people rooting for protoss, and it comes at a time where watching the game while rooting for protoss makes zero sense given how obvious it is that protoss is going to get rolled in any significant tournament. If you can't assign priorities correctly in those circumstances, when can you.
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If you watch any pro player, the most common balance comments you hear are "there are too many Protoss in GM" and "too many 'bad' players win games". I don't think these are good reasons for balance changes, especially because these things don't seem to have an effect on major tournaments.
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Didn't Harstem say that these weren't the final numbers and were subject to change? Also that the new balance team would be quicker to react and make changes?
This would be fine, except that's not the reality. They only touched the "overperform" stuff and did nothing for the "low potential" stuff.
This is a good wording for this patch, I agree with it. I'd rather have something over nothing though without a doubt, early game Queen walks getting patched out will only improve the ZvP metagame.
I said improve, not fix every problem or every grievance that Protoss players have with the match up. Hopefully as the seasons go on this year, we get some patches are indeed more so about improving the quality of life of low potential Protoss units.
It's actually a topic that I find interesting as to what can be done to improve say, Gateway units. There's alot of good ideas suggested by alot of people, but I think that the balance teams knows that the implications of changing core units is huge and the you're more or less totally rewriting the way the game is played.
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Didn't Harstem say that these weren't the final numbers and were subject to change? Also that the new balance team would be quicker to react and make changes?
I've been wrong before.
Fuck it, the sooner we get to see matches played with it the sooner the conjecture can end.
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On March 14 2022 19:50 Beelzebub1 wrote:
^ Did you guys conveniently forget that Queen walks were more or less deleted from the game? Protoss will now be able to secure their fast third bases after opening Oracle essentially for free now, that has huge implications for PvZ, not sure how you can't see that. Queen walks were a response to a greedy play, now Protoss get's to be greedy much easier.
Not saying Protoss didn't need help in PvZ because of course they did, but still, the Queen nerf is massive.
"Widowmine nerf: I mean it helps, non drill widowmines are already winning games for Terrans they have no business winning anyway , looks good on paper don't really feel like it will be that impactful as a whole for the matchup."
Exactly how everyone feels about proxy battery void ray cheese, down to the letter.
Agree about Lurkers though, this new balance council needs to really be paying attention to that unit in particular. Personally I think Adapative Talons needs to be nerfed further or removed entirely (I'm a 3.5K Zerg) but I think they are scared to really bring the nerf hammer down on the Lurker because Ghosts already own them so fucking hard.
I'd also prefer if the balance council started looking more into the Viper, Abduct was necessary back in the day to break up deathballs but Zerg have advanced greatly on fighting Protoss in the late game. Some type of change to Abduct I think would be healthy for the game, it's too effective against high value units in general imo.
- Make Abduct cost 50 energy
Simple, appropriate, would make Zergs have to choose between Abducting or using the other 2 of the Vipers insanely powerful spells.
But yea, to sit here and cry about Protoss cheese nerfs like Protoss got zero compensation is wrong. Protoss did get a buff through a Zerg nerf, and it was a big nerf especially at the top level which is obviously who this patch is meant for.
Abduct cost is currently 75 energy.
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Abduct could use a complete reoverhaul regardless. Most unfun ability to play against in my opinion.
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I agree, we see it now ruin late game ZvZ. Just give it a 0.5sec cast time so it's slightly slower and so you cannot abduct 2x units at the same time.
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EPT
