EPTStarCraft II 5.0.9 PTR Patch Notes (Balance) - Page 10
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DarkGamer
Germany332 Posts
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highsis
259 Posts
On March 09 2022 04:53 Vindicare605 wrote: I love these changes personally. Nerfs all of the things that players hated the most. and the only "buff" (which not surprisingly went to Zerg alone) is to the Nydus Worm and only to its creep spread. For the people complaining about Protoss, I still have a question that no one wants to actually answer. How do you buff Protoss so that it starts winning Championships without making its 50% of GM domination even worse? Conundrum that doesn't have any good answers that can be fixed with a minor balance patch. There's nothing wrong with Protoss except that at the top level it sucks. It dominates every level below that including lower pro level, semi pro, GM and the rest of the ladder. Don't care one bit about GM composition consisting of some 200 players that nobody even watches. Why is that even a big problem? I just wanna see protoss winning chapionships at least once in a while. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3552 Posts
On March 13 2022 01:41 Captain Peabody wrote: Obv still quite early but this PvZ btw Harstem & Lambo on the new patch seems quite promising: If Harstem's approach is right, the Void Ray will still contribute to stabilizing Toss early game, but going mass Voids early on will be difficult/unrewarding and it will be very difficult to transition straight into Carriers. At least in these games, tho, Protoss seems to be in a better econ position overall, and so able to play a true mid-game a lot more. Seems pretty ideal to me, but we'll have to see how it turns out. This is wishful thinking, do you rly see Maxpax playing like this? I want to see them play this, but going for Carrier to rly show that Toss can't force skytoss vs spell casters, like before. I rly can't see how it shouldn't be possible. Even if Void Ray is back to úber trash like it was before, you can still open Oracle for your 3rd base go Phoenix and then into Carrier. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On March 13 2022 18:22 DarkGamer wrote: maybe im blind, but i couldnt find the date when this patch goes live. Someone knows? I'm not sure either - I feel like I heard within a couple of weeks but anyone else know? | ||
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Drahkn
199 Posts
Shield battery change: While it is good that we nerf these cheesy openings that not only create bad gameplay for both players and viewers, Protoss now has even weaker early game aggression then before making the race even more predictable which is the biggest weakness of Protoss. The SC2 community is under the illusion that Protoss was "designed" by Blizzard to be the deceptive race that relies on all inns and strong timing attacks or harass, "mixing it up" as they say to win. All this is of course ironic considering Protoss is THE MOST PREDICTABLE RACE OF ALL THREE RACES. If Protoss is supposed to be deceptive then why is it the easiest race to scout and read. Void ray nerf: So you want Protoss to stop going void ray all inns and sky toss we get it and I'm all for it, but where is the compensation? Have you been watching PVZ the past few years? Remember that little nerf you did to immortals and warp prism? sorry did I call it little what we should say is MASSIVE NERF TO PROTOSS if we are being totally honest. They buffed Void rays to help protoss PVZ now you revert the buff and don't even give a reasoning. And before you write a reply post saying they nerfed queens transfuse, zerg players are laughing right now, getting creep into the mix is not a problem for zerg it is a slight alteration in the build to keep doing the same thing they are already doing. This is weak and lacks foresight. If only you had me on your balance team you could avoid all these pitfalls you keep finding yourselves inn. Dark Templar nerf: While I do agree it looks silly when a bunch of DTs jump in and 1 shot your planetary, I don't find it to be unbalanced, we have seen it deflected with good success with widowmines and good sim cities. I can already hear "It's to expensive Terran can't afford it" If Protoss can afford to warp in 10 DTs and right click them on your planetary like he don't care it means you probably lost the game already anyway OR you 100% can afford the defense on that base because you are now in the late game. But yeah whatever , if it makes Terrans cry less I guess have at it. Widowmine nerf: I mean it helps, non drill widowmines are already winning games for Terrans they have no business winning anyway , looks good on paper don't really feel like it will be that impactful as a whole for the matchup. Lurker nerf: Irrelevant, changes nothing , Lurker is to strong because when it reaches critical mass it demolishes anything on the ground and must be out ranged and can never be fought head on by a ground army. Lurker range and damage is to high. This will have little to no effect just a slight change in Zerg approach in engagements. Nydus change: Well yes ofcourse we can't have 20 queens not being able to spam transfusing the same nydus because thats good game play and doesnt look stupid at all. Welcome to SC2 ZERG EDITION in stores since 2010. To summarize: HORRIBLE patch for Protoss, and as in true Blizzard fashion, while Protoss is the worst performing race also always gets the heaviest nerfs, its like tradition at this point? Someone over there really holds a grudge eh?` For Terran kinda whatever, TvZ TvP got a little easier for them thats about it. For Zerg small nerfs that won't really change anything at highest level of play. Before I peace out I must ask, where are the names of the ones who worked on the patch changes? Why do you give no reasoning behind the changes you made? Kinda weak | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Before the VR buff the only "viable" strategy was the shitty adept play, and I say Viable cause it had a terrible success rate. Then they buffed the Vr and protohad some options. Now the VR is more expensive, takes longer to build and there is no compensation at all? The VR is still slightly faster than originally but no other help for protoss? When Zerg was dominating the match up before? (And lets be honest, after the VR buff as well, just not as much). The battery change and the increase build time of the VR and it's increased cost are also aimed at stopping the proxy push (which I agree is too strong), but are the 3 nerfs necessary? Really? All 3? And again, with no form of compensation? The nerf to the lurker is so small it's frankly ridiculous. I think this will turn out very, very bad for protoss in pvz. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
Not saying Protoss didn't need help in PvZ because of course they did, but still, the Queen nerf is massive. "Widowmine nerf: I mean it helps, non drill widowmines are already winning games for Terrans they have no business winning anyway , looks good on paper don't really feel like it will be that impactful as a whole for the matchup." Exactly how everyone feels about proxy battery void ray cheese, down to the letter. Agree about Lurkers though, this new balance council needs to really be paying attention to that unit in particular. Personally I think Adapative Talons needs to be nerfed further or removed entirely (I'm a 3.5K Zerg) but I think they are scared to really bring the nerf hammer down on the Lurker because Ghosts already own them so fucking hard. I'd also prefer if the balance council started looking more into the Viper, Abduct was necessary back in the day to break up deathballs but Zerg have advanced greatly on fighting Protoss in the late game. Some type of change to Abduct I think would be healthy for the game, it's too effective against high value units in general imo. - Make Abduct cost 50 energy Simple, appropriate, would make Zergs have to choose between Abducting or using the other 2 of the Vipers insanely powerful spells. But yea, to sit here and cry about Protoss cheese nerfs like Protoss got zero compensation is wrong. Protoss did get a buff through a Zerg nerf, and it was a big nerf especially at the top level which is obviously who this patch is meant for. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
On March 14 2022 20:05 deacon.frost wrote: Considering there are queen walks timings with the lair so you cannot defend with DTs it's questionable how much it will be delayed for the top level zergs - namely Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Serral. A massive difference, you go from from 8 Queens surviving and all 4 Voids dying to all 4 Voids surviving and all Queens dying. I'm not talking about any lair timings, I've watched damn near every major high level ZvP for the last 2 years straight and I can probably count on one hand the amount of lair timings I've seen that look imbalanced vs. the clearly imbalanced Queen walk all in that hits with 6 - 8 Queens off creep supported by lings/roach/ravager on hatch tech. Tbh I can't even remember a single game that had a Lair timing Queen all in that looked powerful, by that point Protoss should have had plenty of time to prepare or there were scouting/execution errors such as letting a cheeky Nydus get popped in their main or some other non balance related reason. But this new meta of go to 6 minute Queen all ins? That build was broken, it was too punishing for Protoss to hold compared to the ease that pro Zergs were executing the build. That build is now going to be thrown in the trash where it belongs along with proxy battery Void Ray all ins. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On March 14 2022 19:50 Beelzebub1 wrote: ^ Did you guys conveniently forget that Queen walks were more or less deleted from the game? Protoss will now be able to secure their fast third bases after opening Oracle essentially for free now, that has huge implications for PvZ, not sure how you can't see that. Queen walks were a response to a greedy play, now Protoss get's to be greedy much easier. Not saying Protoss didn't need help in PvZ because of course they did, but still, the Queen nerf is massive. "Widowmine nerf: I mean it helps, non drill widowmines are already winning games for Terrans they have no business winning anyway , looks good on paper don't really feel like it will be that impactful as a whole for the matchup." Exactly how everyone feels about proxy battery void ray cheese, down to the letter. Agree about Lurkers though, this new balance council needs to really be paying attention to that unit in particular. Personally I think Adapative Talons needs to be nerfed further or removed entirely (I'm a 3.5K Zerg) but I think they are scared to really bring the nerf hammer down on the Lurker because Ghosts already own them so fucking hard. I'd also prefer if the balance council started looking more into the Viper, Abduct was necessary back in the day to break up deathballs but Zerg have advanced greatly on fighting Protoss in the late game. Some type of change to Abduct I think would be healthy for the game, it's too effective against high value units in general imo. - Make Abduct cost 50 energy Simple, appropriate, would make Zergs have to choose between Abducting or using the other 2 of the Vipers insanely powerful spells. But yea, to sit here and cry about Protoss cheese nerfs like Protoss got zero compensation is wrong. Protoss did get a buff through a Zerg nerf, and it was a big nerf especially at the top level which is obviously who this patch is meant for. I think the problem is the Queen walk nerf doesnt feel compensatory, it feels like Protoss might actually wind up weaker because Queen Walks only happen vs Protoss but Void Rays are used vs Terran and Zerg, and its one of the few things Protoss was leaning on. Sure, Im rarely sad to see cheese go and in a vacuum Im glad the Void Ray builds are getting a nerf, but... it really feels like Protoss isnt going to be all that much better off, it at all. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1177 Posts
the bad news is that they don't have a clue what they are doing. I just hope the minesweeper team will step in soon and will make this game great again. SC2 is not that great nowadays and with the proposed changes it will get even worse | ||
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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Railgan
Switzerland1509 Posts
Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them. Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene. Somebody should write a movie on this. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
On March 15 2022 04:15 Railgan wrote: I love that we have a council of Pro-Players enact the Balance Changes they think are the best. Then you have the Community who always wants to Balance the Game around those Progamers suddenly going against them. Because in a unforeseeable Plottwist the Community never wanted the game to be balanced but for their chosen race to finally reign atop the Tournament Scene. Somebody should write a movie on this. +1 to this Besides, Harstem already alluded that these are not the final numbers and are subject to change, with this, "Council of Balance" kind of running things more or less, I think he made it pretty clear that changes are going to be tried and tested more rapidly in the future. I think it's always best to start small and work your way up, you can always tweak numbers further if necessary. But I think crying over anything that isn't a buff to Gateway units is a fool's errand and not worth your time or mental energy. Core units are difficult to change without dramatically affecting balance and those changes are probably not going to happen barring ludicrous imbalances in the win rates. There was a time in the days of yore when Roaches were considered useless. Then they got +1 range buff and became staple units in all match ups for 10 + years. | ||
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Checkm8
Japan627 Posts
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Checkm8
Japan627 Posts
Take a look at MOBA games. No matter how imbalanced a character is, they can just tweak it. | ||
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lestye
United States4243 Posts
On March 15 2022 10:17 Checkm8 wrote: Additionally, the way I see it, SC2 will never be balanced unless "micro" is no longer a thing. Take a look at MOBA games. No matter how imbalanced a character is, they can just tweak it. I don't follow. Why would removing micro balance the game? thatd just make it an autobattler | ||
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
On March 15 2022 10:17 Checkm8 wrote: Additionally, the way I see it, SC2 will never be balanced unless "micro" is no longer a thing. Take a look at MOBA games. No matter how imbalanced a character is, they can just tweak it. Direct Strike is definitely not balanced lol | ||
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