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Czech Republic12107 Posts
On January 19 2022 10:16 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2022 08:56 deacon.frost wrote:
So, quaterfinals(eh) are now BO3. wooo, let's celebrate randomness of SC2. And Semis are BO5, at least that's something viable.
RO10 with round robin of BO3s is just, no. That's just bad.
This just screams money saving.
Also - will the player be punished again if they give up to play useless round robin matches? Because this may happen, happened before. Bo3 round robin is objectively far less volatile than single elim bo5. Your second concern is valid and I always assumed it's been the reason we haven't seen round robin more often in SC2 because it is a superior format to single elim in every other way.
GSL wasn't single elimination tourney though in the group stages, so the argument is moot and BO5 utilizes 5 out of 7 maps of the current map pool with a time for preparation, it's the least volatile system, especially considering we will see all the same 3 maps over and over again because the rest is imbalanced tragedy(usually)
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On January 19 2022 07:15 ShowTheLights wrote:Ro4 BO5 sucks Otherwise everything else looks good Gonna miss the group selection  I dont see how there can be one in this format
Agree with this 100%. Group selection is fun to see.
Bo5 in semis is a downer. Bo7 there makes it feel more important.
Having a Bo5 in the semis can go by fast too if a player shuts the other out 3-0 or 3-1 real quick, imagine a single day broadcasting a single match of the semis and it ends within 30-45 minutes?
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We went from having a round of 32 to round of 24 to round of 20. Also instead of best of 7 for semi-finals, now best of 5. Sad times.
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I'm interested to see the round-robin format return to the GSL. Reminds me of the old Up-and-Down groups and how crazy they sometimes got. I remember Wolf and Khaldor always struggling to figure out all the permutations of who could still get out and who couldn't.
I think it's smart when some tournaments add extra prize money for round-robin wins; it makes sure that every match is still competitive. Doesn't seem like GSL is incorporating anything like that.
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On January 20 2022 07:24 WickedCestus wrote:
I'm interested to see the round-robin format return to the GSL. Reminds me of the old Up-and-Down groups and how crazy they sometimes got. I remember Wolf and Khaldor always struggling to figure out all the permutations of who could still get out and who couldn't.
I think it's smart when some tournaments add extra prize money for round-robin wins; it makes sure that every match is still competitive. Doesn't seem like GSL is incorporating anything like that.
I think I remember an up and down matches group that ended in all ties so they had to redo the entire group? Think Creator was in it
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On January 20 2022 10:48 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2022 07:24 WickedCestus wrote:
I'm interested to see the round-robin format return to the GSL. Reminds me of the old Up-and-Down groups and how crazy they sometimes got. I remember Wolf and Khaldor always struggling to figure out all the permutations of who could still get out and who couldn't.
I think it's smart when some tournaments add extra prize money for round-robin wins; it makes sure that every match is still competitive. Doesn't seem like GSL is incorporating anything like that. I think I remember an up and down matches group that ended in all ties so they had to redo the entire group? Think Creator was in it
This rings a bell. There were plenty of times where they had to do three-way tiebreakers that could potentially go on forever. Plenty of invoking of the "players under 18 can't play after midnight" rule by the casters, but I don't remember it ever actually coming into effect.
That format was so funny. I remember having to double-check the diagram on Liquipedia so often because it was all just so convoluted. Back in the days when it cost $100/yr to watch GSL in standard def!
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2434 Posts
The slight problem of round robin with too many players per group is dead rubber matches. Or a runaway leader qualified with 1 game left to spare relaxes in the last game and the opponent gets an easier time.
(Yes, giving prize money or points for wins would be the best solution to incentivise players to give their all for every game)
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Comparing each player vs every other player is the most fair way of testing who is the best. It is objectively less volatile with a bo3 round robin than bo5 single elimination.
When SSL had round robin format I was excited about the possibility of following individual players and looking at how the lesser players did vs different strong players. Instead of seeing someone get slapped by Solar and get knocked out on day 1, I got to see them put up a fight vs soO and show that Solar was a bad match up.
I am happy that GSL is implementing this.
Had GSL made the round robin being an even bigger part would be even better.
Round robin is great for longer tournaments. GSL code S is the longest single player tournament of high level.
Team leagues have used round robin on the regular. They end it with a play-off bracket. It is like many other sports e.g. hockey, floor ball, football.
Weekenders don't have time for a round robin, so they are understandably using quicker formats. Code S can use their added time for a more fair system.
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On January 20 2022 21:32 Drfilip wrote:
Comparing each player vs every other player is the most fair way of testing who is the best. It is objectively less volatile with a bo3 round robin than bo5 single elimination.
When SSL had round robin format I was excited about the possibility of following individual players and looking at how the lesser players did vs different strong players. Instead of seeing someone get slapped by Solar and get knocked out on day 1, I got to see them put up a fight vs soO and show that Solar was a bad match up.
I am happy that GSL is implementing this.
Had GSL made the round robin being an even bigger part would be even better.
Round robin is great for longer tournaments. GSL code S is the longest single player tournament of high level.
Team leagues have used round robin on the regular. They end it with a play-off bracket. It is like many other sports e.g. hockey, floor ball, football.
Weekenders don't have time for a round robin, so they are understandably using quicker formats. Code S can use their added time for a more fair system.
DH EU has had Round Robin Groups for 2 years now and the majority of fans and Players don t realy like it anymore.
For the Players it feels like every single map is super important
For the fans it feels like a forgone conclusion
In the end we get burned out Players and low quality games
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On January 20 2022 23:09 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2022 21:32 Drfilip wrote:
Comparing each player vs every other player is the most fair way of testing who is the best. It is objectively less volatile with a bo3 round robin than bo5 single elimination.
When SSL had round robin format I was excited about the possibility of following individual players and looking at how the lesser players did vs different strong players. Instead of seeing someone get slapped by Solar and get knocked out on day 1, I got to see them put up a fight vs soO and show that Solar was a bad match up.
I am happy that GSL is implementing this.
Had GSL made the round robin being an even bigger part would be even better.
Round robin is great for longer tournaments. GSL code S is the longest single player tournament of high level.
Team leagues have used round robin on the regular. They end it with a play-off bracket. It is like many other sports e.g. hockey, floor ball, football.
Weekenders don't have time for a round robin, so they are understandably using quicker formats. Code S can use their added time for a more fair system.
DH EU has had Round Robin Groups for 2 years now and the majority of fans and Players don t realy like it anymore. For the Players it feels like every single map is super important For the fans it feels like a forgone conclusion In the end we get burned out Players and low quality games
The issue with DH EU, imo, is that its made of 8-Players group, meaning 7 round and up to 4 players move to the bracket, which is also double elimination. So its just that the value of the win in the group stage isnt that much. Also, the player pool at the top level is only around 12-16 at most, meaning only around 16 player got a real shot at making deep. So they should just make it like the old GSL format where lower-tier player go through an extra group stage and top-tier go seeded straight into the next round.
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Round Robin in current year? Can't wait for the when a group day takes hours because of tiebreakers lmao
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2434 Posts
Round robin is great when the competitive level is high and skill gap is low. That's why foreign tourneys with round robins are boring and redundant. And unfortunately, the same will likely happen in GSL due to the dwindling Korean player pool...
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On January 19 2022 07:27 Kelazhur wrote:Interesting gap in prize earned from runner-up to champion. Apparently 200% the prize wasn't enough of a jump before, now it almost triples 
yeah this is a terrible change, tbh
mixed feelings about this format.. I think there was honestly nothing wrong with the previous one..
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ro6 should have been bo5 with ro4 remaining bo7, imo
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The prize pool is pretty awesome. 30K for 1st place, damn! Glad to see GSL still kicking ass.
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The super top heavy prize pool and region locking has really killed any chance of upcoming talent in Korea over the last few years. I suppose no reason to change that now lol
Curious to see how this new format plays out. The semis being shortened is a little strange but perhaps it's a Rogue nerf =b
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Hey so how do i get in this? im back in the scene.
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I like RR in general, but as others have said, how will they keep the players trying their best and not give up / play relaxedly? Also, I think having a RR group split over 2 days kills some of the hype. The standard 4-person-group double elim format is really great because it gives players a couple chances and different players to beat to advance, and it finishes in 1 day.
Having quarters be Bo3 makes some sense since it's half of a double-elim bracket, but it might be less exciting than before, we'll see. The RR stage might be the most "important/exciting" part now, but just guessing.
Semis being Bo5 is OK I guess, I kept thinking semis was Bo5 anyway but was surprised seeing it's Bo7 whenever I watch.
Don't like the 1st place getting 2.5x as 2nd place... it should be double at most.
Overall it'll be nice seeing a different format, but I'm not sure if I really like the sound of it much so far.
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not too big a fan of the new format, but maybe I just need to get used to it.
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As usual I think they could reduce the 1st place prize money since getting top 4? qualifies one to the international season finals. Since qualifying is pretty much guaranteed money there is no need for 1st place to earn so much more money. $15,000 plus qualifying would have been plenty.
I'm curious whether the organizers ever even considered this problem, that a high placement in one tournament is needed to qualify for the next tournament. To be clear, I have no problem with the format for the international season finals (it's a fun tournament!), but it necessitates reducing the prize money for the qualifying positions to offset the additional money they will earn at the season finals. More of that money needs to go to the non qualifying players, because they won't have the opportunity to earn even more money at the season finals.
Anyway, not trying to upset anybody, I hope I was able to make my point in a calm manner that won't bother anybody. I'm just trying to say that situation for the last 10 years of Starcraft 2 esports is that the top players have earned more money than they will need in a lifetime, while the lower tier pros never even earned enough to live on. Had the situation been rectified sooner we would have a much larger roster of professional players today than we do. I know there are other factors at play, but even as viewership and prize money wanes, the money that is still there could be put to better use in a way that will keep the scene healthier for years to come.
Sorry, I always complain about it, but it just makes me sad and frustrated since it's easily improvable.
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EPT
