The hexagons were updated in week two, with the numerical value ranges appearing to go from 0-5 to 0-10. Some new players debuted (sOs, Stats), while others had their stats adjusted. Some players like Lambo and Scarlett had their stats changed without upward/downward arrows to signify it.
On March 26 2021 23:51 WombaT wrote: How is TY not maxed for tactics? Outrageous!
I'm outraged they think TY only has tier 3 micro. Feels like they never actually watch him play.
Ok I'm also outraged about him not being maxed for tactics.
And some times his game sense is also in shambles, pure John Sun. They actually need to make a gif to accurately represent TY, it should show game sense at zero once in a while.
On March 27 2021 00:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote: These are nice. In games there's always a perfectly balanced character and MaNa's the right choice for that role.
Excited to see Solar as MaNa+, with 4 in every attribute
On March 27 2021 00:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote: These are nice. In games there's always a perfectly balanced character and MaNa's the right choice for that role.
Excited to see Solar as MaNa+, with 4 in every attribute
On March 27 2021 00:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote: These are nice. In games there's always a perfectly balanced character and MaNa's the right choice for that role.
Excited to see Solar as MaNa+, with 4 in every attribute
Classic would be the perfect 4* everywhere imo
That's only because there isn't an attribute for style.
My prediction for the rest of the top rank players: Dark, Rogue, Maru probably have 3 5s, and 3 4s. Stats and Zest will have 2 5s and 4 4s. Actually Zest will have 2 Hexagon, one for "Zest the Best" with 5 5s and 1 4 and other is "Zest the not so best" with 6 4s. Inno will probably have 1 5 and 5 4s, Solar will have 1 5, 4 4s and a 3 somewhere.
Hexagons is the best thing in day 1 production imo, SCboy said during broadcast that the production team is a new one, hopefully the obvious problems will be solved soon (in Xiaose's words, tomorrow).
On March 27 2021 01:43 deacon.frost wrote: The information was the hexagons are done by teammates not the crew.
I would expect thats only for Players they Don t know. Would make sense to ask Special about his Team exon teammates.. I expect them to rate the Koreans and Chinese by themselves
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
On March 27 2021 10:47 B111 wrote: Scboy said on stream that these Power Hexagons will be dynamic, so they will keep changing in the future judging by players’ actual performance.
On March 27 2021 10:47 B111 wrote: Scboy said on stream that these Power Hexagons will be dynamic, so they will keep changing in the future judging by players’ actual performance.
So if MaNa keeps scoring 1-1, he can keep the Mr. Average Hexagon
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
Dark won his titles in 2019 mostly by playing better than his opponents; he "outstrategized" Serral in TSL by going for mutas almost every game the way Maru was doing at a certain point in 2018 when he proxied 24/7, relying on his opponents not having an answer for the strategy. Not surprisingly, when presented with reliable counters played by strong opponents both lost very important series.
Dark surely isn't lacking in strategy and tactics but I wouldn't say it's the reason he is a top player; I would prefer Lambo over him every day if I had to ask for a strategical advice, Dark is just a stronger player overall. I also don't think Serral's main selling point is his strategic prowess.
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
Dark won his titles in 2019 mostly by playing better than his opponents; he "outstrategized" Serral in TSL by going for mutas almost every game the way Maru was doing at a certain point in 2018 when he proxied 24/7, relying on his opponents not having an answer for the strategy. Not surprisingly, when presented with reliable counters played by strong opponents both lost very important series.
Dark surely isn't lacking in strategy and tactics but I wouldn't say it's the reason he is a top player; I would prefer Lambo over him every day if I had to ask for a strategical advice, Dark is just a stronger player overall. I also don't think Serral's main selling point is his strategic prowess.
Yeah Dark and Serral are just all-round monsters really.
If we’re talking tactics being in-game reads and smart decisions then they’re obviously very good at all that.
I guess tactics, strategy, planning and theorycrafting all kind of overlap to some degree, and some folks use tactics and strategy interchangeably.
I guess for the purpose of the prestigious power hexagon I’d have this stat be more about the combination of all of them, with a really high rating being for a player who gets wins based on their brain vs mechanics etc, gaining an advantage or closing mechanical or meta gaps with strength of planning.
I think if you define strategy as picking builds, compositions, etc., while you define tactics as how an existing army is used, e.g. nydus/runby, how to split the army, when to counterattack where, then I think Dark has to have a strong case for being one of the top tactical players. He pioneered bane drops against Stats in SSL in 2016, brought a lot of the typical ZvT late game harassment into the meta (ultras for runbys, heavy nydus play (which he later dropped)), and continues to have some of the most ridiculous comeback. Moreover, all of his comebacks are "tactical" in the sense that they can't be encapsulated by a strategic motif alone, "turtle to BL and take one good fight" but are instead mostly backed by strong army positioning, counterattacking, and forcing the opponent to make mistakes.
I think Dark has the strategy of a potato, but if you give him an army he is comfortable with, he will squeeze more mileage out of it than anybody else in the world. It's a subjective definition, but I think Dark is one of the players who really highlights the difference between "tactics" and "strategy" the most.
On March 28 2021 03:50 yubo56 wrote: I think if you define strategy as picking builds, compositions, etc., while you define tactics as how an existing army is used, e.g. nydus/runby, how to split the army, when to counterattack where, then I think Dark has to have a strong case for being one of the top tactical players. He pioneered bane drops against Stats in SSL in 2016, brought a lot of the typical ZvT late game harassment into the meta (ultras for runbys, heavy nydus play (which he later dropped)), and continues to have some of the most ridiculous comeback. Moreover, all of his comebacks are "tactical" in the sense that they can't be encapsulated by a strategic motif alone, "turtle to BL and take one good fight" but are instead mostly backed by strong army positioning, counterattacking, and forcing the opponent to make mistakes.
I think Dark has the strategy of a potato, but if you give him an army he is comfortable with, he will squeeze more mileage out of it than anybody else in the world. It's a subjective definition, but I think Dark is one of the players who really highlights the difference between "tactics" and "strategy" the most.
This was very well put. Tactics is not the same as strategy in English language. I wonder how it is in Mandarin and how it could change in translation. For all I know, Mandarin has 5 different words which describes different aspects where the English only has 2 aspects.
Also, "Dark has the strategy of a potato" was poetry.
I think if you define strategy as picking builds, compositions, etc., while you define tactics as how an existing army is used, e.g. nydus/runby, how to split the army, when to counterattack where, then I think Dark has to have a strong case for being one of the top tactical players. He pioneered bane drops against Stats in SSL in 2016, brought a lot of the typical ZvT late game harassment into the meta (ultras for runbys, heavy nydus play (which he later dropped)), and continues to have some of the most ridiculous comeback. Moreover, all of his comebacks are "tactical" in the sense that they can't be encapsulated by a strategic motif alone, "turtle to BL and take one good fight" but are instead mostly backed by strong army positioning, counterattacking, and forcing the opponent to make mistakes.
I think Dark has the strategy of a potato, but if you give him an army he is comfortable with, he will squeeze more mileage out of it than anybody else in the world. It's a subjective definition, but I think Dark is one of the players who really highlights the difference between "tactics" and "strategy" the most.
Or you don't understand the depth like Dark does thus you're unable to see it.
I think if you define strategy as picking builds, compositions, etc., while you define tactics as how an existing army is used, e.g. nydus/runby, how to split the army, when to counterattack where, then I think Dark has to have a strong case for being one of the top tactical players. He pioneered bane drops against Stats in SSL in 2016, brought a lot of the typical ZvT late game harassment into the meta (ultras for runbys, heavy nydus play (which he later dropped)), and continues to have some of the most ridiculous comeback. Moreover, all of his comebacks are "tactical" in the sense that they can't be encapsulated by a strategic motif alone, "turtle to BL and take one good fight" but are instead mostly backed by strong army positioning, counterattacking, and forcing the opponent to make mistakes.
I think Dark has the strategy of a potato, but if you give him an army he is comfortable with, he will squeeze more mileage out of it than anybody else in the world. It's a subjective definition, but I think Dark is one of the players who really highlights the difference between "tactics" and "strategy" the most.
Or you don't understand the depth like Dark does thus you're unable to see it.
I don't think there's strategic depth to losing 10 drones more to harassment than every other Zerg, or managing to die to solved cannon rushes haha, but maybe that's just the sad Dark fan within being salty every time he does stupid things. I'm mostly harping on his early game since that's the part that's the easiest to see by comparing to some of the other KR and even EU zergs playing against the same opponents. I agree that I probably don't understand his strategy in the mid and late game, but that's where his tactical brilliance is able to shine a lot more, and it's a bit harder to separate game plan from execution.
Maybe it's telling that some of the compositions he has been pioneering, like the heavy roach investment in ZvT with very late banes, or the straight to roach hydra lurker, haven't really caught on despite his reasonable individual success with it. I think strategy the way I've defined it is very easy to learn from other players ("what are they playing for here, what is their win condition?"), and apparently very few people have taken Dark's strategies. To then make the leap that "Dark's strategies are only good because of his tactics" to "Dark's tactics salvage his bad strategies" is not so difficult, in my opinion, especially since he's only looked quite good in his games and is only very rarely in unbeatable form.
I think if you define strategy as picking builds, compositions, etc., while you define tactics as how an existing army is used, e.g. nydus/runby, how to split the army, when to counterattack where, then I think Dark has to have a strong case for being one of the top tactical players. He pioneered bane drops against Stats in SSL in 2016, brought a lot of the typical ZvT late game harassment into the meta (ultras for runbys, heavy nydus play (which he later dropped)), and continues to have some of the most ridiculous comeback. Moreover, all of his comebacks are "tactical" in the sense that they can't be encapsulated by a strategic motif alone, "turtle to BL and take one good fight" but are instead mostly backed by strong army positioning, counterattacking, and forcing the opponent to make mistakes.
I think Dark has the strategy of a potato, but if you give him an army he is comfortable with, he will squeeze more mileage out of it than anybody else in the world. It's a subjective definition, but I think Dark is one of the players who really highlights the difference between "tactics" and "strategy" the most.
Or you don't understand the depth like Dark does thus you're unable to see it.
I don't think there's strategic depth to losing 10 drones more to harassment than every other Zerg, or managing to die to solved cannon rushes haha, but maybe that's just the sad Dark fan within being salty every time he does stupid things. I'm mostly harping on his early game since that's the part that's the easiest to see by comparing to some of the other KR and even EU zergs playing against the same opponents. I agree that I probably don't understand his strategy in the mid and late game, but that's where his tactical brilliance is able to shine a lot more, and it's a bit harder to separate game plan from execution.
Maybe it's telling that some of the compositions he has been pioneering, like the heavy roach investment in ZvT with very late banes, or the straight to roach hydra lurker, haven't really caught on despite his reasonable individual success with it. I think strategy the way I've defined it is very easy to learn from other players ("what are they playing for here, what is their win condition?"), and apparently very few people have taken Dark's strategies. To then make the leap that "Dark's strategies are only good because of his tactics" to "Dark's tactics salvage his bad strategies" is not so difficult, in my opinion, especially since he's only looked quite good in his games and is only very rarely in unbeatable form.
Well that's the issue, I don't see losing 10 drones or failing to defend a cannon rush as a strategic fail but as a tactic fail. Stategy to me is the grand scheme, the big plan. Stategy defines the long term plan while tactics are the small pieces.
If we gonna talk about his early game - he fails tactically, he's unable to use predefined tactics to defend some rushes, cheese, w/e. Edit> Which may be because he's sticking to his greater plan and thus is weaker to some things. That's the part of risking and playing risky strategies. Or not having a good day
And that's exactly the reason why I wrote it's pointless because we don't have defined what's strategy and we haven't agreed upon this and as such we cannot discuss whether Dark is strategic mastermind or not. Because we are not basing this on the same definition of strategy.
On March 27 2021 15:46 Husyelt wrote: Why does TY, the greatest SC2 strategist of all time not have maxed out tactics score?
His recent performance at Katowice against PartinG did not exactly ooze tactical brilliance.
Strategy and tactics are also not the same thing
Considering we never agreed on what's what it doesn't matter.
Isn't strategy the macro part of the game / game plan, whereas tactics are like micro decisions / tricks in battles? Like using your warp prism to do pick-up micro is a "tactic", whereas deciding to go for a 2 archons drop in PvZ is the "strategy".
On March 26 2021 23:51 WombaT wrote: How is TY not maxed for tactics? Outrageous!
I'm outraged they think TY only has tier 3 micro. Feels like they never actually watch him play.
Ok I'm also outraged about him not being maxed for tactics.
And some times his game sense is also in shambles, pure John Sun. They actually need to make a gif to accurately represent TY, it should show game sense at zero once in a while.
I do agree that TY's micro is often underrated, just because it's sometimes overshadowed by ByuN and Maru, but many times he had just wonderful micro and being 3rd is not too bad.
However, I think his mentality score should be lower. He has suffered with many throws and reverse sweeps where he played much worse towards the end of it. He's better now, but still below average
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
Dark won his titles in 2019 mostly by playing better than his opponents; he "outstrategized" Serral in TSL by going for mutas almost every game the way Maru was doing at a certain point in 2018 when he proxied 24/7, relying on his opponents not having an answer for the strategy. Not surprisingly, when presented with reliable counters played by strong opponents both lost very important series.
Dark surely isn't lacking in strategy and tactics but I wouldn't say it's the reason he is a top player; I would prefer Lambo over him every day if I had to ask for a strategical advice, Dark is just a stronger player overall. I also don't think Serral's main selling point is his strategic prowess.
You sound like Dark and Maru are "one-trick pony" and when get found out will get smashed or something. Sure they abuse the build if they can just use the same build over and over to win, but they can do standard build and just win with better composition and reaction. And what the point of having a good or great strategy if you dont have the ability to pull it off? Lambo probably knows every single build in the game and can come up with all the perfect counter, but the question would be how he can scout for it and make the proper adjustment to those builds? You cant just strategy on paper, it has to be carried out in actual gametime and succeed. To say a guy knows more meaning he is a better strategist is not true IMO.
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
Dark won his titles in 2019 mostly by playing better than his opponents; he "outstrategized" Serral in TSL by going for mutas almost every game the way Maru was doing at a certain point in 2018 when he proxied 24/7, relying on his opponents not having an answer for the strategy. Not surprisingly, when presented with reliable counters played by strong opponents both lost very important series.
Dark surely isn't lacking in strategy and tactics but I wouldn't say it's the reason he is a top player; I would prefer Lambo over him every day if I had to ask for a strategical advice, Dark is just a stronger player overall. I also don't think Serral's main selling point is his strategic prowess.
You sound like Dark and Maru are "one-trick pony" and when get found out will get smashed or something. Sure they abuse the build if they can just use the same build over and over to win, but they can do standard build and just win with better composition and reaction. And what the point of having a good or great strategy if you dont have the ability to pull it off? Lambo probably knows every single build in the game and can come up with all the perfect counter, but the question would be how he can scout for it and make the proper adjustment to those builds? You cant just strategy on paper, it has to be carried out in actual gametime and succeed. To say a guy knows more meaning he is a better strategist is not true IMO.
No, I wanted to point out that Dark is not a strategical genius(Maru isn't either); they are of course astonishing players.
Lambo's reputation as a strategist made Reynor ask for his coaching and win Katowice, partly thanks to the ability of effectively carrying out said strategies.
On March 28 2021 03:50 yubo56 wrote: I think if you define strategy as picking builds, compositions, etc., while you define tactics as how an existing army is used, e.g. nydus/runby, how to split the army, when to counterattack where, then I think Dark has to have a strong case for being one of the top tactical players. He pioneered bane drops against Stats in SSL in 2016, brought a lot of the typical ZvT late game harassment into the meta (ultras for runbys, heavy nydus play (which he later dropped)), and continues to have some of the most ridiculous comeback. Moreover, all of his comebacks are "tactical" in the sense that they can't be encapsulated by a strategic motif alone, "turtle to BL and take one good fight" but are instead mostly backed by strong army positioning, counterattacking, and forcing the opponent to make mistakes.
I think Dark has the strategy of a potato, but if you give him an army he is comfortable with, he will squeeze more mileage out of it than anybody else in the world. It's a subjective definition, but I think Dark is one of the players who really highlights the difference between "tactics" and "strategy" the most.
bane drops vs toss were first done by Rogue in a proleague match vs herO in 2015
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
Dark won his titles in 2019 mostly by playing better than his opponents; he "outstrategized" Serral in TSL by going for mutas almost every game the way Maru was doing at a certain point in 2018 when he proxied 24/7, relying on his opponents not having an answer for the strategy. Not surprisingly, when presented with reliable counters played by strong opponents both lost very important series.
Dark surely isn't lacking in strategy and tactics but I wouldn't say it's the reason he is a top player; I would prefer Lambo over him every day if I had to ask for a strategical advice, Dark is just a stronger player overall. I also don't think Serral's main selling point is his strategic prowess.
That is plainly wrong. People is trying to build the narrative that Dark won vs Serral at TSL pure on BO wins and if you look a the games well truth is different. Dark may won just one of those games by BO win, then again, is ZvZ. The rest were just plain better play. Second, Maru 2018 was not just in the back of proxying. Yeah sure he proxy a lot but even after his proxies got completely blind counter he was able to recover and win. To the point that I looked like proxing was just an opening for him, and honestly still is by looking at some of his games.
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
Dark won his titles in 2019 mostly by playing better than his opponents; he "outstrategized" Serral in TSL by going for mutas almost every game the way Maru was doing at a certain point in 2018 when he proxied 24/7, relying on his opponents not having an answer for the strategy. Not surprisingly, when presented with reliable counters played by strong opponents both lost very important series.
Dark surely isn't lacking in strategy and tactics but I wouldn't say it's the reason he is a top player; I would prefer Lambo over him every day if I had to ask for a strategical advice, Dark is just a stronger player overall. I also don't think Serral's main selling point is his strategic prowess.
That is plainly wrong. People is trying to build the narrative that Dark won vs Serral at TSL pure on BO wins and if you look a the games well truth is different. Dark may won just one of those games by BO win, then again, is ZvZ. The rest were just plain better play. Second, Maru 2018 was not just in the back of proxying. Yeah sure he proxy a lot but even after his proxies got completely blind counter he was able to recover and win. To the point that I looked like proxing was just an opening for him, and honestly still is by looking at some of his games.
I watched that series and there was one map out of four in which Dark outplayed Serral, the last; the rest were either bo wins or reckless, risky tactical decisions that paid out(unlike the series they played at IEM in which, I have to say, Dark played better); in general, tho, Dark doesn't stand out for his strategic prowess.
I am not saying Maru's victories in 2018 were all due to proxying but towards the end of the season he became fixated with it to the point his strategic plan became kinda obvious to everyone(and in the end sOs punished for that at BlizzCon).
On March 27 2021 15:46 Husyelt wrote: Why does TY, the greatest SC2 strategist of all time not have maxed out tactics score?
His recent performance at Katowice against PartinG did not exactly ooze tactical brilliance.
Strategy and tactics are also not the same thing
They are nearly interchangeable for me when it comes to RTS, and even if so, TY is easily the best at both. Where as Maru can brute force his way into comebacks, TY can do the same with half the effort all due to his decision making.
On March 27 2021 15:46 Husyelt wrote: Why does TY, the greatest SC2 strategist of all time not have maxed out tactics score?
His recent performance at Katowice against PartinG did not exactly ooze tactical brilliance.
Strategy and tactics are also not the same thing
They are nearly interchangeable for me when it comes to RTS, and even if so, TY is easily the best at both. Where as Maru can brute force his way into comebacks, TY can do the same with half the effort all due to his decision making.
Pretty sure decision making is getting filed under game sense in these hexagons
On March 27 2021 15:46 Husyelt wrote: Why does TY, the greatest SC2 strategist of all time not have maxed out tactics score?
His recent performance at Katowice against PartinG did not exactly ooze tactical brilliance.
Strategy and tactics are also not the same thing
They are nearly interchangeable for me when it comes to RTS, and even if so, TY is easily the best at both. Where as Maru can brute force his way into comebacks, TY can do the same with half the effort all due to his decision making.
There is nothing better than TY in term of tactics or strategy. But I havent seen TY done much comeback in 2020 at all. Most of the time, TY jump ahead because of his great early game. He can do alot of different combination of Bio/Mech/Medivac harrassment that throw the opponent off guard and can never recover from it. But if TY couldnt do those things and actually fell behind, its unlikely or him to comeback as his micro/macro is not the best in the game. Maru is the type of guy that can turtle hard when fall behind, and then just make a push to win the game. We have seen he done a lot of that, or almost won the game from that position, in all the matchup.
On March 27 2021 15:46 Husyelt wrote: Why does TY, the greatest SC2 strategist of all time not have maxed out tactics score?
His recent performance at Katowice against PartinG did not exactly ooze tactical brilliance.
Strategy and tactics are also not the same thing
They are nearly interchangeable for me when it comes to RTS, and even if so, TY is easily the best at both. Where as Maru can brute force his way into comebacks, TY can do the same with half the effort all due to his decision making.
Pretty sure decision making is getting filed under game sense in these hexagons
On March 27 2021 15:46 Husyelt wrote: Why does TY, the greatest SC2 strategist of all time not have maxed out tactics score?
His recent performance at Katowice against PartinG did not exactly ooze tactical brilliance.
Strategy and tactics are also not the same thing
They are nearly interchangeable for me when it comes to RTS, and even if so, TY is easily the best at both. Where as Maru can brute force his way into comebacks, TY can do the same with half the effort all due to his decision making.
Pretty sure decision making is getting filed under game sense in these hexagons
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
Dark won his titles in 2019 mostly by playing better than his opponents; he "outstrategized" Serral in TSL by going for mutas almost every game the way Maru was doing at a certain point in 2018 when he proxied 24/7, relying on his opponents not having an answer for the strategy. Not surprisingly, when presented with reliable counters played by strong opponents both lost very important series.
Dark surely isn't lacking in strategy and tactics but I wouldn't say it's the reason he is a top player; I would prefer Lambo over him every day if I had to ask for a strategical advice, Dark is just a stronger player overall. I also don't think Serral's main selling point is his strategic prowess.
That is plainly wrong. People is trying to build the narrative that Dark won vs Serral at TSL pure on BO wins and if you look a the games well truth is different. Dark may won just one of those games by BO win, then again, is ZvZ. The rest were just plain better play. Second, Maru 2018 was not just in the back of proxying. Yeah sure he proxy a lot but even after his proxies got completely blind counter he was able to recover and win. To the point that I looked like proxing was just an opening for him, and honestly still is by looking at some of his games.
I watched that series and there was one map out of four in which Dark outplayed Serral, the last; the rest were either bo wins or reckless, risky tactical decisions that paid out(unlike the series they played at IEM in which, I have to say, Dark played better); in general, tho, Dark doesn't stand out for his strategic prowess.
I am not saying Maru's victories in 2018 were all due to proxying but towards the end of the season he became fixated with it to the point his strategic plan became kinda obvious to everyone(and in the end sOs punished for that at BlizzCon).
Sure, but your examples are wrong, even if you overall statement is true. Dark and Maru dont shine by shinny strats. Mostly because standard play is enough for them to win championships and why risking it playing smart? When a bullet proof macro game can carry you to the win? Also Maru style in 2015 by dropping maruders into colos was quite unique, and he popularize 2018 mass raven, so its not that they are incapable of making innovations.
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
Dark won his titles in 2019 mostly by playing better than his opponents; he "outstrategized" Serral in TSL by going for mutas almost every game the way Maru was doing at a certain point in 2018 when he proxied 24/7, relying on his opponents not having an answer for the strategy. Not surprisingly, when presented with reliable counters played by strong opponents both lost very important series.
Dark surely isn't lacking in strategy and tactics but I wouldn't say it's the reason he is a top player; I would prefer Lambo over him every day if I had to ask for a strategical advice, Dark is just a stronger player overall. I also don't think Serral's main selling point is his strategic prowess.
That is plainly wrong. People is trying to build the narrative that Dark won vs Serral at TSL pure on BO wins and if you look a the games well truth is different. Dark may won just one of those games by BO win, then again, is ZvZ. The rest were just plain better play. Second, Maru 2018 was not just in the back of proxying. Yeah sure he proxy a lot but even after his proxies got completely blind counter he was able to recover and win. To the point that I looked like proxing was just an opening for him, and honestly still is by looking at some of his games.
I watched that series and there was one map out of four in which Dark outplayed Serral, the last; the rest were either bo wins or reckless, risky tactical decisions that paid out(unlike the series they played at IEM in which, I have to say, Dark played better); in general, tho, Dark doesn't stand out for his strategic prowess.
I am not saying Maru's victories in 2018 were all due to proxying but towards the end of the season he became fixated with it to the point his strategic plan became kinda obvious to everyone(and in the end sOs punished for that at BlizzCon).
Sure, but your examples are wrong, even if you overall statement is true. Dark and Maru dont shine by shinny strats. Mostly because standard play is enough for them to win championships and why risking it playing smart? When a bullet proof macro game can carry you to the win? Also Maru style in 2015 by dropping maruders into colos was quite unique, and he popularize 2018 mass raven, so its not that they are incapable of making innovations.
I think we have the same opinion here. I just want to point out that since they don't especially shine for their strategy, their "tactics" score should reflect that.
On March 27 2021 05:44 deacon.frost wrote: Ehm, I don't want to be mean to Lambo, but if any Zerg is on my tactics and strategy watch lists it's actually Dark. Followed by Serral.
Yeah sure, Lambo is only the guy behind the tactics of the IEM Katowice winner, 3 points in tactics is about right
Yeah sure. Dark is only the guy who actually won multiple titles, who gathered multiple second places and all of this in spite of what the master tactician Lambo says about his strategy. I don't know Kev, probably Dark is just bad at strategy and can bend space and time
Oh man, that would be cool if Dark could do that. If he can do that Lambo can keep his puny tactics superiority.
Dark won his titles in 2019 mostly by playing better than his opponents; he "outstrategized" Serral in TSL by going for mutas almost every game the way Maru was doing at a certain point in 2018 when he proxied 24/7, relying on his opponents not having an answer for the strategy. Not surprisingly, when presented with reliable counters played by strong opponents both lost very important series.
Dark surely isn't lacking in strategy and tactics but I wouldn't say it's the reason he is a top player; I would prefer Lambo over him every day if I had to ask for a strategical advice, Dark is just a stronger player overall. I also don't think Serral's main selling point is his strategic prowess.
That is plainly wrong. People is trying to build the narrative that Dark won vs Serral at TSL pure on BO wins and if you look a the games well truth is different. Dark may won just one of those games by BO win, then again, is ZvZ. The rest were just plain better play. Second, Maru 2018 was not just in the back of proxying. Yeah sure he proxy a lot but even after his proxies got completely blind counter he was able to recover and win. To the point that I looked like proxing was just an opening for him, and honestly still is by looking at some of his games.
I watched that series and there was one map out of four in which Dark outplayed Serral, the last; the rest were either bo wins or reckless, risky tactical decisions that paid out(unlike the series they played at IEM in which, I have to say, Dark played better); in general, tho, Dark doesn't stand out for his strategic prowess.
I am not saying Maru's victories in 2018 were all due to proxying but towards the end of the season he became fixated with it to the point his strategic plan became kinda obvious to everyone(and in the end sOs punished for that at BlizzCon).
Sure, but your examples are wrong, even if you overall statement is true. Dark and Maru dont shine by shinny strats. Mostly because standard play is enough for them to win championships and why risking it playing smart? When a bullet proof macro game can carry you to the win? Also Maru style in 2015 by dropping maruders into colos was quite unique, and he popularize 2018 mass raven, so its not that they are incapable of making innovations.
I believe Maru made Innovation and won in one of the fastest BO7 ever (2013?)
To be fair, Maru isn't exactly innovative player, but at the same time Maru isn't copied either while he plays rather unique styles. I wouldn't call his playstyle standard as if you wanna learn how to play Terran - sure, go watch Maru. Then forget what you've seen because this implies you understand the game, you have flawless macro while you micro on 2 - 4 different screens. No one else can do that, that's why play like Maru become the meme so easily.
In other words - c'mon, Meomaika. It's the perfect example why Maru isn't a standard Terran. It seems to me Maru likes the thrill of playing on the edge of losing. That's why when he defended those all ins he just went - fuck it, it's time to be aggressive. Standard Terran would just stayed at home and would get more ahead and didn't leave with 90 % of the army to do questionable damage at best.
On March 27 2021 15:46 Husyelt wrote: Why does TY, the greatest SC2 strategist of all time not have maxed out tactics score?
His recent performance at Katowice against PartinG did not exactly ooze tactical brilliance.
Strategy and tactics are also not the same thing
They are nearly interchangeable for me when it comes to RTS, and even if so, TY is easily the best at both. Where as Maru can brute force his way into comebacks, TY can do the same with half the effort all due to his decision making.
Pretty sure decision making is getting filed under game sense in these hexagons
But I want that maxed out as well
He has that maxed out
Don’t quote me, I apparently cannot read or be trusted on this issue. I retire from this thread.
Funny how Lambo criticizes Dark who is one of the most succesful and consistent elite player of all time. The truth is Dark can beat 90 % of the pros fairly easy even if he choses suboptimal strats, he is just that much better in every other aspect. I think Lambo should keep quiet about this, Dark is on an other levelcompared to him.
On March 29 2021 09:59 Shathe wrote: Funny how Lambo criticizes Dark who is one of the most succesful and consistent elite player of all time. The truth is Dark can beat 90 % of the pros fairly easy even if he choses suboptimal strats, he is just that much better in every other aspect. I think Lambo should keep quiet about this, Dark is on an other levelcompared to him.
I’m pretty sure Lambo had his tongue firmly in his cheek there, what with the EU v Kr ZvZ meme too. No point doing the Hexagons of power if you’re not able to have the players have a bit of fun with it.
I’m not sure if any exist, or did exist given the lack of information and of course team houses don’t exist anymore.
I’m pretty sure you could produce an elite player in that environment who was a mechanical monster and just grinded out the game with a coach, but who if you talked to them didn’t have many great insights or deep understanding of the game. Obviously not Dark who is just pretty good at everything.
Part of what makes SC2 a great competitive game is no player is good enough to be above the rest of the field in all areas, even the best have some relative weaknesses and distinctive strengths.
Lambo is obviously just messing around bro, chill. Nobody takes these graphics Seriously. Like it shows MaxPax as just straight up better stats than Lambo lol. They're just for fun
On March 29 2021 12:20 Waxangel wrote: updated with day 3 :0
Zest getting perfect micro score is probably the most objectionable thing so far
If you look at the series he played against Clem it checks out (except that he'd need to be in the negatives for 'game sense'). Zest is just lucky there's no macro corner.
Nobody get a 5 in Mentality other than Inno and XY over others. I dont know much about XY as a player to tell it, but Inno probably always has a cool robot-like face, never feel like he has any emotion during the games whatsoever. Thats probably why its a 5?
On March 29 2021 12:20 Waxangel wrote: updated with day 3 :0
Zest getting perfect micro score is probably the most objectionable thing so far
You can look at Zest as a single thread CPU which tries to run 2 processes - macro and micro. And, well, since he's unable to run them at the same time, he has to use some scheduling. So when is the time to micro - Zest is usually impeccable. But his macro stands still. And vice versa.
On March 29 2021 16:37 Harris1st wrote: What does the color indicate?
I feel someone should make a card game out of this ^^
in-game color?
Still don't get it. It definitely not race. Clem is yellow, TIME is red, both Terrans It's not continent, Zest is Korean Protoss (red), Zoun is Korean Protoss (blue)
EDIT: Is it literally in-game color? I couldn't watch yet
On March 29 2021 16:37 Harris1st wrote: What does the color indicate?
I feel someone should make a card game out of this ^^
in-game color?
Still don't get it. It definitely not race. Clem is yellow, TIME is red, both Terrans It's not continent, Zest is Korean Protoss (red), Zoun is Korean Protoss (blue)
EDIT: Is it literally in-game color? I couldn't watch yet
I don't know, didn't pay attention, but seems like it.
On March 29 2021 13:00 tigera6 wrote: Nobody get a 5 in Mentality other than Inno and XY over others. I dont know much about XY as a player to tell it, but Inno probably always has a cool robot-like face, never feel like he has any emotion during the games whatsoever. Thats probably why its a 5?
XY always keeps an (unjustified) optimistic mentality playing against his opponents, though he doesn't stand a chance of winning most of the time. XY does share something in common with Inno, in terms of both being able to force opponents to play in a pace they are familiar with. The difference is Inno can always win while XY can't...
On March 29 2021 16:37 Harris1st wrote: What does the color indicate?
I feel someone should make a card game out of this ^^
in-game color?
Still don't get it. It definitely not race. Clem is yellow, TIME is red, both Terrans It's not continent, Zest is Korean Protoss (red), Zoun is Korean Protoss (blue)
EDIT: Is it literally in-game color? I couldn't watch yet
I don't know, didn't pay attention, but seems like it.
It was yellow on day one and looked bad when it overlapped so they changed to red and blue and i assume that bath also be the colour they play in game, i figured they just had different colours to make the overlap look okay
On March 29 2021 16:37 Harris1st wrote: What does the color indicate?
I feel someone should make a card game out of this ^^
in-game color?
Still don't get it. It definitely not race. Clem is yellow, TIME is red, both Terrans It's not continent, Zest is Korean Protoss (red), Zoun is Korean Protoss (blue)
EDIT: Is it literally in-game color? I couldn't watch yet
I don't know, didn't pay attention, but seems like it.
It was yellow on day one and looked bad when it overlapped so they changed to red and blue and i assume that bath also be the colour they play in game, i figured they just had different colours to make the overlap look okay
This seems probable. Graphics changed a lot from one day to the other. We, the viewers, can see the learning process of the production team.
Added some week 2 hexagons. Some players had their stats changed! While there's arrows to show this in certain cases, some players like Scarlett and Lambo had theirs changed without any indicator.
Shouldn't macro be also reflected? I cannot relate it directly to any of the dimensions. There are clear benefits of having "more stuff", and not all players are equal in that regard.
Biggest upset of week 3 Scarlett winning a map vs Stats, at -11 overall point, although according to his next week hexagon, Nice beating Clem would be a -15 win.
Zest having a consistently high micro score is so baffling. He's the definition of "why micro matter when brain/protoss is big?" player.
It's also why I love him as a player. The fact that he can spend 1000 on a zealot warp-in that kills NOTHING but it can still be a net-gain because it had STRATEGIC value proves that the "strategy" part of RTS can still overcome the "real time" aspect.
On April 30 2021 17:03 Waxangel wrote: Zest having a consistently high micro score is so baffling. He's the definition of "why micro matter when brain/protoss is big?" player.
It's also why I love him as a player. The fact that he can spend 1000 on a zealot warp-in that kills NOTHING but it can still be a net-gain because it had TACTICAL value proves the the "strategy" part of RTS can still overcome the "real time" aspect.
Even more impressive is the fact that he's gaining value on that 1K warpin while still having another 1K in the bank XD
The new graphics are about win streaks, told by Xiaose in stream. I forget which color represents how many win streaks, but it's obviously a Dragon Ball reference (also told in SCboy's stream).
On May 01 2021 16:51 LED_Mirage wrote: The new graphics are about win streaks, told by Xiaose in stream. I forget which color represents how many win streaks, but it's obviously a Dragon Ball reference (also told in SCboy's stream).
Cool, I know nothing about Dragon Ball, so Maru had golden background and lightnings over his body, because he's now Pickachu?
Is there a quick explanation for culturally ignorant people like me?
On May 01 2021 16:51 LED_Mirage wrote: The new graphics are about win streaks, told by Xiaose in stream. I forget which color represents how many win streaks, but it's obviously a Dragon Ball reference (also told in SCboy's stream).
Cool, I know nothing about Dragon Ball, so Maru had golden background and lightnings over his body, because he's now Pickachu?
Is there a quick explanation for culturally ignorant people like me?
In the Dragon Ball series, particularly its more violent sequel series Dragon Ball Z, many of the characters including the main character Goku must transcend mortal human capability in order to defeat increasingly powerful extraterrestrial threats. While human characters must train to use special techniques and energy blasts, the saiyans (a human-like alien species) such as Goku are able to increase their "power level" by going "Super Saiyan" which turns their hair yellow and causes bright yellow energy to radiate from their body due to the energy they have in their body.
In this case, instead of getting more powerful after losing against more powerful foes like in the manga and anime, the players simply get more powerful (with more glowing) with undefeated win streaks.
Another example of this is in some sports video games in which a basketball or hockey player scoring multiple times in a row becomes "on fire" (literally, in the game) or glows yellow, red, or eventually blue with enough score.
On May 01 2021 16:51 LED_Mirage wrote: The new graphics are about win streaks, told by Xiaose in stream. I forget which color represents how many win streaks, but it's obviously a Dragon Ball reference (also told in SCboy's stream).
Cool, I know nothing about Dragon Ball, so Maru had golden background and lightnings over his body, because he's now Pickachu?
Is there a quick explanation for culturally ignorant people like me?
In the Dragon Ball series, particularly its more violent sequel series Dragon Ball Z, many of the characters including the main character Goku must transcend mortal human capability in order to defeat increasingly powerful extraterrestrial threats. While human characters must train to use special techniques and energy blasts, the saiyans (a human-like alien species) such as Goku are able to increase their "power level" by going "Super Saiyan" which turns their hair yellow and causes bright yellow energy to radiate from their body due to the energy they have in their body.
In this case, instead of getting more powerful after losing against more powerful foes like in the manga and anime, the players simply get more powerful (with more glowing) with undefeated win streaks.
Another example of this is in some sports video games in which a basketball or hockey player scoring multiple times in a row becomes "on fire" (literally, in the game) or glows yellow, red, or eventually blue with enough score.
Biggest upset of week 6 Jieshi winning a map vs ByuN at -13 points. Also worth mentioning XY beating Time 2-0 at - 9 points. Time lost at -9 for the second week in a row.
The changes in hexagon dimensions (Game Sense -> Macro, Tactics -> Strategy, Mentality -> Mindset) are just translation changes. The Chinese words are still the same as before.
Among these changes there are two that I'm not sure whether it's an improvement over the previous one. Game Sense -> Macro (the Chinese word: 大局观 (big picture, overall view)) Tactics -> Strategy (although 战术 in Chinese has broad meanings, imo in sc2 scene it's more often used for non-standard build orders (such as SpeCial, sOs), but probably not as aggressive as early-game cheeses)
As said in Scboy's wechat article, Dark's overall point on hexagon will be lowered next week due to him to performing that well and have a low win rate.
Biggest upset of week 7 Ryung winning a map vs Dark at a whooping -13 hexagon points. Also worth mentioning, SpeCial winning a map vs INnoVation at -8 hexagon points.
Biggest upset of week 7 Ryung winning a map vs Dark at a whooping -13 hexagon points. Also worth mentioning, SpeCial winning a map vs INnoVation at -8 hexagon points.
Biggest upset of week 7 Ryung winning a map vs Dark at a whooping -13 hexagon points. Also worth mentioning, SpeCial winning a map vs INnoVation at -8 hexagon points.
One detail: XY had 9 in mindset last week and 9 this week. The mindset -1 got changed earlier.
Biggest upset of week 7 Ryung winning a map vs Dark at a whooping -13 hexagon points. Also worth mentioning, SpeCial winning a map vs INnoVation at -8 hexagon points.
One detail: XY had 9 in mindset last week and 9 this week. The mindset -1 got changed earlier.
Oh you are right, well seen! He had -1 mindset but +1 micro between week 4 and 5. I have to confess, I only check the overall score first and if there's no change I don't check each stats.
The upset of the week (and of the tournament) goes to Coffee for beating Clem at -19 hexagonal points If fact the whole IG team managed to split the first 6 maps at a combined -30 points, truly an heroic effort.
Dark has them to thank to hide his own blunder, losing to Cham at +17 points, it's the second biggest upset of the tournament.