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I post a suggestion to hold high end tournaments on Team Melee format.
This could end up being more popular amongst the viewers than standard 1v1 as the games could contain feats that are impossible for one person to achieve.
In viewers point of view they would only notice the more awesome matches the format could bring, so as the matches are better i suspect that many would rather watch a Team Melee format than the standard one when given the possibility.
Having something like 3 drops at the same time and 2 main armies that fight at the same time and still keep up the production is possible in team melee. Problem would be that it would take a lot for a commentator / observer to keep up with the game at that point. At least for anyone else than Nathanias.
Something to think about when figuring how to step the starcraft esports format further.
Would not necessary be the same players who would reign in team melee than in standard. I would bet that Maru + Trap would be a good combination though.
Another strange thing is i cannot find good 2v2 tournaments and even the team tournaments are held in 1v1 format whats the point in that but i see there is The NA Apprentice "2v2 League Qualifier 2" in the frame.
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There have been the occasional archon matches and their popularity was so and so. Certainly nothing to replace 1v1.
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Mexico2170 Posts
In BW there were some 2v2 tournaents. Here too but mainly exibition matches and showmatches.
I don't think 2v2 is particularly exciting in sc2, the game was designed to be 1v1.
But for starcraft 3 I think we will see a bigger emphasis in team games. Just like we've seen team sports dominate, we've also seen team esports dominate.
I think the future of sc2 will be something like co-op right now, but vs other 2 players instead of the IA, for better and for worse.
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Both 2v2 and Archon are fun gamemods, both to Play and to watch.
But appart from the fact, that sc2 wasn t balanced around those modes, it s almost impossible to keep up with everything happening for viewers and casters alike in those Games. Also some 2v2 maps are completely unbalanced trash.
There are some minor tournaments in 2v2 and some great showmatches in Archon in the past.
I Don t see Blizz providing a pricepool for a big team Championship though.
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2v2 in starcraft 2 is just bad compared to how it was in brood war. Not really any fun at all and I did enjoy 2v2 and even 3v3, 4v4 in brood war quite a bit.
Mr.Bitter thought the same thing as you in 2015 and hosted an archon tournament, the result wasn't that good. SC2 is a 1v1 game and people will tune in for 1v1 tournaments.
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Where can i find that archon tournament ?
In my opinion one of the reasons why 1v1 format provides good content is that people are focused on it.
If no one would focus on 1v1 format then the results would be the same in 1v1 tournament as you have told from 2v2 and Team Melee.
Let's say some pro players would focus entirely on Team Melee, the results could be astonishing. Somehow i suspect that Archon tournament had not such focus on it, but some amateur players who have not been even accustomed to the concept. Same goes probably for 2v2.
If the same people would hold a 1v1 tournament, that would probably not fare good either.
It is also entirely possible that there have not been a decent Team Melee game in the entire world even once, so people have not seen what it could provide.
I can see 2v2 being better in Brood War than Starcraft 2.
About balancing the game, Starcraft have never had any issues on balance in any format, from the first date of launch until today. Somehow it seems only issue on Starcraft 2 so it is probably done in purpose.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 21 2020 14:13 dbRic1203 wrote:
Both 2v2 and Archon are fun gamemods, both to Play and to watch.
But appart from the fact, that sc2 wasn t balanced around those modes, it s almost impossible to keep up with everything happening for viewers and casters alike in those Games. Also some 2v2 maps are completely unbalanced trash.
There are some minor tournaments in 2v2 and some great showmatches in Archon in the past.
I Don t see Blizz providing a pricepool for a big team Championship though.
yeah, recently i saw a game on the winter's channel and it was a mess. 4 players for 1 observer & screen? Missed things, sadly.
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On September 21 2020 21:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 14:13 dbRic1203 wrote:
Both 2v2 and Archon are fun gamemods, both to Play and to watch.
But appart from the fact, that sc2 wasn t balanced around those modes, it s almost impossible to keep up with everything happening for viewers and casters alike in those Games. Also some 2v2 maps are completely unbalanced trash.
There are some minor tournaments in 2v2 and some great showmatches in Archon in the past.
I Don t see Blizz providing a pricepool for a big team Championship though.
yeah, recently i saw a game on the winter's channel and it was a mess. 4 players for 1 observer & screen? Missed things, sadly.
Recently there was a 4v4 Archon TvZ Match, I think it was Reynor, Serral, Lambo, Elazer vs Clem, Soul, Kelazhur, Harstem.
I watched it 3 times, once from Harstems view, then from Lambos view and then casted by Lowko and it felt like watching 3 completly different series.
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On September 22 2020 02:33 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2020 21:03 deacon.frost wrote:On September 21 2020 14:13 dbRic1203 wrote:
Both 2v2 and Archon are fun gamemods, both to Play and to watch.
But appart from the fact, that sc2 wasn t balanced around those modes, it s almost impossible to keep up with everything happening for viewers and casters alike in those Games. Also some 2v2 maps are completely unbalanced trash.
There are some minor tournaments in 2v2 and some great showmatches in Archon in the past.
I Don t see Blizz providing a pricepool for a big team Championship though.
yeah, recently i saw a game on the winter's channel and it was a mess. 4 players for 1 observer & screen? Missed things, sadly. Recently there was a 4v4 Archon TvZ Match, I think it was Reynor, Serral, Lambo, Elazer vs Clem, Soul, Kelazhur, Harstem. I watched it 3 times, once from Harstems view, then from Lambos view and then casted by Lowko and it felt like watching 3 completly different series.
I watched it from Lowko's POV. It was quite entertaining and looked like micro is OP.
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On September 21 2020 14:16 Comedy wrote:
2v2 in starcraft 2 is just bad compared to how it was in brood war. Not really any fun at all and I did enjoy 2v2 and even 3v3, 4v4 in brood war quite a bit.
Mr.Bitter thought the same thing as you in 2015 and hosted an archon tournament, the result wasn't that good. SC2 is a 1v1 game and people will tune in for 1v1 tournaments.
I mean thats the thing. Archon tournaments were organised at the start of LOTV and the lack of interest was understandable as with a new expansion, new units etc people just wanted to see how the pro's would play with the new units instead in a normal 1v1 setting.
But with the game being "stale" for a while now with no new expansion coming out in the further lifespan, it is strange (small) archon tournaments have not been organised. Lambo,Harstem etc have been streaming and uploading their archon matches with other high level players and pretty much every viewer enjoyed it a lot more than normal 1v1 because it was fresh and something they havnt seen before. Even the pro's said this was the most fun they had playing the game in years (so much fun hearing the teams speak in their discord groups as well, content!)
Shoutout to Catz and his recent tournament series where Reynor had to play against a archon of Lambo and Soul I believe as Reynor was stomping his competition for weeks so Catz had to bring in a tougher challenge and that was loads of fun to watch. Large 2v2 tournaments also had their resurgence earlier this year with a lot of high lvl players playing in them.
You would think its only time before a €1000+ archon tournament will take place, I can only hope
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Having a archon game of Starcraft 2 is entirely different than mobas and other successful team games. You don't get the see the interaction inside the team, and it just makes it even harder for the casters, observer and viewers to follow. A main reason why SC2 is much smaller than other games is it complexity. I don't see how making it that much more complex would bring more hype or people.
Although I agree that having a couple archon/team games as showmatches in big events is always fun. But I wouldn't go much further than this.
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Serral + Reynor archoning zerg vs Clem + Inno archoning terran would be a sight to behold. Assuming of course, one could behold it. It would be runbys and dropships with individually controlled marines and banelings all over the entire map.
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On September 23 2020 17:07 Acrofales wrote:
Serral + Reynor archoning zerg vs Clem + Inno archoning terran would be a sight to behold. Assuming of course, one could behold it. It would be runbys and dropships with individually controlled marines and banelings all over the entire map.
I don t see Inno ever participating in that. When he want s to play a more relaxing game (-mode) than SC2 1v1, he plays LoL
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
I'd much rather prefer a mode where it's Co-Op commanders in a 1v1 and a second player gets to control the hero character:
Example:
Zagara vs Raynor
1 player controls the Zerg army as in any normal game, but a second player controlling Zagara can also roam the map and do damage. Same for Terran except with Raynor's character.
Basically, almost like WC3 except heroes are controlled by other players.
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Micro wars map type have always been entertaining in regarding different game modes.
I can see many possibilities in ways of playing Starcraft. One of the main strengths with Starcraft have always been different game types and user made maps, especially many creative Use Map Settings.
That Hero unit game in my opinion is worth developing. Would have to have experience for the hero character, having a possibility even to make a DOTA type minigame inside a bigger starcraft game. Some interaction between the regular players and the "DOTA" players might even be to acquire minerals for the regular players who is producing units or vice verca to make a strategic balance for each team.
There is lots of possibilities in that kind of setup. Maybe something like DOTA where the AI controlled minions are human controlled with some kind of economy and / or system to produce them based on skill in addition for the player controlled characters. Might even have positions like baseball, Producer / Pitcher, Controller(s) (who controls the minions) and field players (who controls the characters).
I also have other thread about creating a map where players can choose their rosters before the battle as in the campaing maps. I would rather like it to be in the main frame before the map starts, but if that is not possible to create, then using beacons before the map outside maps normal boarders. Ideal way to do this would be a direct interface to select roster before start of the battle to play on a selected map with different unit types as presented in the campaing game.
There really is as much possibilities as there are imagination in a given environment.
Good maps i have enjoyed in Starcraft are Survival type of maps and Micro Wars which were always the most entertaining. In Warcraft 3 there was Dota which was a master piece, played more than the regular game itself and BattleShips where you upgraded your ship which i liked a lot. For these maps outside DOTA i see the Micro Wars most potential for competetive or showmatch type of challenges. A short Micro War circuit to warm up the players and show of skills before the actual tournament. Something for few hours of enjoyment. In a way, might even be more enjoyable than rest of the tournament. Instant action, awesome displays.
I have even found movies that are made within the Brood War use map setting format.
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If people threw some money at the idea of a 2v2 team-league involving pros, gave the players adequate time to prepare and ran the shit professionally, somebody would watch. The only way to know is to run the experiment.
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Generally speaking, I would like to see more showmatches. Having a showmatch between eliminated players or invited players between semifinals and the grand final of tournaments would give the finalists some time to rest and mentally prepare. The awkward benefit of playing in the first semifinal would lessen with that extra time for the second finalist.
The showmatch with micro wars or a co-op version player vs player would be entertaining as a pause in the final day of a tournament.
An archon thing would only be extra entertaining if the players are at the same place and we, as viewers, get to see and hear the group cooperate. Archon mode wouldn't be special until this physical distancing is over with.
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After specialicing in team melee, they would definetly be noted on the difference in performance, enabling feats that are impossible on other formats.
Do not need to see the players to enjoy that. Might even be, that the most satisfying way to enjoy high performance team melee matches is to watch them within starcraft 2 as replays. That way you can slow the speed or pause, or rewind if you missed something and you surely will.
Team Melee and team concept could be seen in similar way than FPS games which are usually team oriented.
Do not provoke, but in my opinion Starcraft (RTS) and FPS games do not differ that much. Both have strong focus on real time performance. Do not see a reason why both games could not follow a similar format. Obviously FPS is more suited on team games and RTS on duels.
Another thing in team format that should not be overlooked is that the players would not be known or introduced as "Team Maru" but "Jin Air Green Wings" which gives the sponsors more attention.
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Check out this vid Isto, it seems to be the thing you described:
+ Show Spoiler +
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I will check that later, but i doubt those people practice together on team melee. It seems like a casual game.
If the result is better than any of those players 1v1 result, then im overjoyed of that. Without good coperation the result is usually worse.
Still it is nice they do stuff like that, take notice of something else than the regular game.
Those guys are pro but not on team melee.
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On October 04 2020 13:08 Isto wrote:
I will check that later, but i doubt those people practice together on team melee. It seems like a casual game.
If the result is better than any of those players 1v1 result, then im overjoyed of that. Without good coperation the result is usually worse.
Still it is nice they do stuff like that, take notice of something else than the regular game.
Those guys are pro but not on team melee.
A 4 Player archon Team is WAY WAY better than 1 Single Player.
Justcrecently there was a 1p vs Archon Showmatch, Reynor vs Lambo/Soul and the Archon won, despite Lambo offracing as T and both Archon Player beeing objectivly worse than Reynor in 1v1
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4 Player team is usually harder to pull of than 2 player.
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EPT
