EPTThe survey is here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/6YXJZSX
This seems like a good occasion to have an evaluation here on TL as well, about what was good with the tournament and what can be done better in the future.
Official DH SC2 Masters Summer feedback survey
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
The survey is here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/6YXJZSX This seems like a good occasion to have an evaluation here on TL as well, about what was good with the tournament and what can be done better in the future.
| ||
|
Elentos
55458 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On July 22 2020 00:38 Elentos wrote: I think the most egregious thing is just the scheduling. Mainly the season finals getting put into the middle of the GSL Ro16. Every other issue I think just will be sorted out by gaining more experience and finding a groove. I agree. And I would add that scheduling the matches so Koreans have to play in the middle of the night just does give a level playing field. When Katowice can start matches at noon CET, I don't see how the season finals can't at least be moved forward to 2 pm CET / 9 pm Korea. Even if it costs a few viewers in the beginning, imo it's really important to do everything to ensure that everyone has as close to even conditions as possible. Scheduling the matches so that Koreans play as early as possible and Americas-players as late as possible would also be a good idea, instead of just following bracket order. | ||
|
dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
Would love to see more player interviews, even for the smaller, regional Tournaments, like Oceania or Taiwan. | ||
|
tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On July 22 2020 03:12 dbRic1203 wrote: Not sure, how much insight he has, but acording to this, the schedule isn t realy a problem for Kr players: https://twitter.com/JonSnowSC2/status/1284857359693643777 Would love to see more player interviews, even for the smaller, regional Tournaments, like Oceania or Taiwan. Not sure if serious. | ||
|
Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
| ||
|
WedgeYBiggs
Spain11 Posts
| ||
|
derty555
27 Posts
| ||
|
Calliope
297 Posts
| ||
|
AzBozz
Germany518 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On July 22 2020 03:12 dbRic1203 wrote: Not sure, how much insight he has, but acording to this, the schedule isn t realy a problem for Kr players: https://twitter.com/JonSnowSC2/status/1284857359693643777 Would love to see more player interviews, even for the smaller, regional Tournaments, like Oceania or Taiwan. Huge if true. Am particularly impressed with the Korean players' ability to get out of bed, catch a quick bite and a shower, get to the Afreeca studio, set up their stuff, and be ready for the games in exactly 0 minutes. | ||
|
serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
On July 22 2020 03:12 dbRic1203 wrote: Not sure, how much insight he has, but acording to this, the schedule isn t realy a problem for Kr players: https://twitter.com/JonSnowSC2/status/1284857359693643777 Would love to see more player interviews, even for the smaller, regional Tournaments, like Oceania or Taiwan. Important to note that no matter your sleep schedule you'll play worse super late at night unless you have a condition that gives you an unusual circadian rhythm. | ||
Kinky
United States4126 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55458 Posts
To throw in something positive, I very much enjoyed the variety of casters we got to hear. Probably one of the advantages of an online based circuit that you can have a variety of people you don't have to fly in. But even then, in particular CatZ but also Demuslim and feardragon are people you often don't have casting in big events. And I thought that was cool cause everyone brings something different to the table. | ||
|
col_jung
139 Posts
On July 22 2020 06:02 Kinky wrote: My only complaint was that each game had no indication of which server it was being played on. I understand that behind the scenes the players decide the server for each game according to the default server cross-table, but as a viewer you have no idea which server was chosen unless the commentators randomly announced it. I was curious about this one too. For a Kr vs EU match, one of them will always be at a latency disadvantage? | ||
|
Cinskywind1
16 Posts
I think the only constructive feedback I could offer was the sheer volumes of games. With several weeks of play and two or more streams, it was very difficult to keep up as they were happening. The other thing, which is understandable, was countdown timers to games, which I understand are necessary but not a lot of fun to watch. One thing I noticed a lot during casts were caster referring to amazing games played earlier in the series or even earlier in the day. Not sure if this would even be possible, but maybe compile a short top 10 or 5 series played list based on casters input/viewer poll before major events like finals? Maybe a “road to victory” series showing better games of the people about to play in finals? It would be nice to highlight amazing back and forth games or great comebacks and give players who played their heart out for a series a little highlight. Even if it’s only a 1 min or 2 min list it could fill the place of the 2 min countdowns and give a little attention to the players who deserve it. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24321 Posts
| ||
|
TheRealNanMan
United States1471 Posts
| ||
|
BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic613 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24321 Posts
Sorry I’ve wanted it at every tournament since MLG experiment with FPV streams and it’s a fantastic addition to GSLs | ||
|
Russano
United States425 Posts
| ||
|
Harris1st
Germany6802 Posts
That's not even the occasional add or sth. It just watching countdown timers 50% of the time. Not sure if anything can be done there though. | ||
|
DrunkenJedi
Germany175 Posts
| ||
|
watchlulu
Germany474 Posts
On July 22 2020 14:45 Harris1st wrote: For me personally it's always too much downtime between games and especially between series. That's why I watch both streams mostly just vod so i can skip a lot. That's not even the occasional add or sth. It just watching countdown timers 50% of the time. Not sure if anything can be done there though. This is exactly my critique. At least show us recaps of games or something during the breaks so that I don't have to switch to something else, the music + timer combo was horrible. | ||
|
JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
If I remember correctly, there were breaks even before the start of the very first game, two breaks between a series (before and after the interview), and every series begins was preceded by five minutes of discussion before the first game starts. | ||
|
dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On July 22 2020 21:19 JustPassingBy wrote: I am very happy that ESL / DH took over, but I wish they would spend more time ingame and less time outside of games. If I remember correctly, there were breaks even before the start of the very first game, two breaks between a series (before and after the interview), and every series begins was preceded by five minutes of discussion before the first game starts. I m personally fine with discussion and analysis, but yeah, the downtime was indeed pretty damn long  I imagine they could easily do the discussion while setting everthing up for the game, so they don t need to have another break between the talking and the actual game... | ||
|
xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
Also, I like the choice of ZombieGrub as a caster. She is one of the few female casters out there and she is very knowledgeable about the game. Showing the game cams of the players was really good too. Too bad it's not done more frequently. But it's great to see the expressions of the players as the game is played out. Hopefully, it can be done more frequently and not just at the semi-finals phase of the tournament. | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 22 2020 03:12 dbRic1203 wrote: Not sure, how much insight he has, but acording to this, the schedule isn t realy a problem for Kr players: https://twitter.com/JonSnowSC2/status/1284857359693643777 Would love to see more player interviews, even for the smaller, regional Tournaments, like Oceania or Taiwan. Yes, but 2 of the players in semis were in the Code S on THE SAME DAY. TY casting and Inno playing. Which is terrible terrible schedule. | ||
|
Totoro1
25 Posts
Also, I would merge NA and LA regions to have a bigger and more competitive tournament. Currently, LA region was so boring with Special walking on everyone. | ||
|
feardragon
United States970 Posts
On July 22 2020 08:38 Wombat_NI wrote: FIRST PERSON VIEWS YEAHHHH Sorry I’ve wanted it at every tournament since MLG experiment with FPV streams and it’s a fantastic addition to GSLs Hey! This is actually a really cool idea but doing this in a remote environment is next to impossible to actually expect. The only technically feasible way I can even imagine doing this is if there were two separate pc's that simply set to each player's camera as observers but you wouldn't actually capture mouse movement at all which is like 80% of the appeal for this. Remember that everyone is at home environments. If you wanted to do something like ask the players to set up a stream remember that has an impact on their frame rates. Some of these players don't have great internet so it may even cause more latency for them to play on top of the lowered frame rate. And even with that solution, streams will have an absolute minimum of 4-5 second delay(and possible 10-15 seconds) so your FPV would actually end up being significantly behind. As cool of a suggestion as this is, I'm going to guess it's kinda infeasible. On July 22 2020 11:07 Russano wrote: I remember one thing I absolutely hated - I think it was during some group stages with multiple streams. Rotterdam would spoil the results of what happened on other stream. I understand why he did it, but as someone who had every attention of going back and watching the other stream vod to get all the games, this ruined the experience a bit for me. I wouldn't mind an "update of the other stream's games" but it should be it's own specific segment, with a spoiler warning, and not just thrown in whenever a caster feels like it. Here's the thing, I sympathize that not everyone can watch both(or all 4) streams at once. It's not even that you're the minority for not being able to but remember that the majority of viewers either *can* watch multiple streams at once(even the mobile twitch app allows for squad stream viewing so long as you have the internet for it) or the people watching don't care enough to watch both streams. Ultimately for someone like Rotterdam, it's his job to paint the full picture for the event: that's what he's been hired to do. Things that happen in the other matches are important sometimes to the current ongoing match. For example, when we were toward the end of the group stage, the results of the other matches could change the requirements of what scoreline a player needed in the current match to advance. This paints a different context for that match. It's no longer about just winning because now even taking a single map can change the tide of things and create different expectations & meaning. Maybe a player will play safer knowing that they have to 2-0 their opponent or maybe a player knows they just need one map win so they'll throw out some crazy cheeses just to sneak one in. I think whenever Rotti brought up other matches, it usually added to things. The other thing I'll say is that while I know as a viewer(trust me I've been there) it feels like the casters talk FOREVER between breaks, the reality is we don't actually end up talking that much. If you look at the actual exchanges, we end up basically each saying about 3 things each. Usually the first thing is about the previous game, the second is a bit more open ended to our own choice depending on the situation, and the third thing is about the next upcoming series.There's not always a good chance to sneak in how meaningful the results of some other match was. Hope that made sense. I am happy people are posting feedback though and even the suggestions I don't agree with tend to come from a place I can understand. P.S. I'm not speaking on behalf of DreamHack or ESL or anything. I'm only speaking for myself. Also I got a new keyboard and I really wanted to type with it. | ||
|
patermatrix
64 Posts
| ||
|
Mettis
84 Posts
| ||
|
ytherik
199 Posts
On July 23 2020 04:36 Mettis wrote: I made a feedback suggestion saying during downtime they should show old IEM/DH finals games a bit like the GSL highlights package during breaks there. Yeah that would be really cool. | ||
|
bela.mervado
Hungary373 Posts
I'd be happy with a simple thing as an id "EU: " / "KR: " / "NA-W: " / "NA-C: " / "NA-E: " inserted before map name on the UI to show it all game long. I always like to see Demu cast a match. | ||
|
ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
 The worst part is just all the damn breaks. Even watching from vod's it's annoying and watching live, you kind of have to be doing something else as well or you're just sitting there chatting. I personally don't mind long breaks. But many small ones and ones that are just after game, when you're wanting reactions from the interviewee or the desk, saps excitement. Thx for this and I want more. | ||
|
feardragon
United States970 Posts
On July 23 2020 05:04 ejozl wrote: Get Kaelaris He mentioned was asked but was unfortunately crazy unbelievably busy and couldn't do it. Fingers crossed it works out next season! | ||
|
JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On July 23 2020 01:20 feardragon wrote: Here's the thing, I sympathize that not everyone can watch both(or all 4) streams at once. It's not even that you're the minority for not being able to but remember that the majority of viewers either *can* watch multiple streams at once(even the mobile twitch app allows for squad stream viewing so long as you have the internet for it) or the people watching don't care enough to watch both streams. Ultimately for someone like Rotterdam, it's his job to paint the full picture for the event: that's what he's been hired to do. Things that happen in the other matches are important sometimes to the current ongoing match. For example, when we were toward the end of the group stage, the results of the other matches could change the requirements of what scoreline a player needed in the current match to advance. This paints a different context for that match. It's no longer about just winning because now even taking a single map can change the tide of things and create different expectations & meaning. Maybe a player will play safer knowing that they have to 2-0 their opponent or maybe a player knows they just need one map win so they'll throw out some crazy cheeses just to sneak one in. I think whenever Rotti brought up other matches, it usually added to things. I just wanted to say that I really appreciate Rotti and any other caster making an effort to keep the viewers up to date on all the matches that are running at the same time! On July 23 2020 01:20 feardragon wrote: The other thing I'll say is that while I know as a viewer(trust me I've been there) it feels like the casters talk FOREVER between breaks, the reality is we don't actually end up talking that much. If you look at the actual exchanges, we end up basically each saying about 3 things each. Usually the first thing is about the previous game, the second is a bit more open ended to our own choice depending on the situation, and the third thing is about the next upcoming series.There's not always a good chance to sneak in how meaningful the results of some other match was. Hope that made sense. I am happy people are posting feedback though and even the suggestions I don't agree with tend to come from a place I can understand. P.S. I'm not speaking on behalf of DreamHack or ESL or anything. I'm only speaking for myself. Also I got a new keyboard and I really wanted to type with it. I respectfully disagree. I just compared the last broadcasts of DH and GSL just to make sure that I am not imagining things, while DH allows the casters to talk for over 6 minutes before a series (followed by a 3 minute break) Tastosis won't even get 3 full minutes before the screen cuts ingame. One can argue whether 6 minutes is "forever" and my 5 minutes of research is not representative, but I don't think DH giving the casters significantly more screentime is a mere feeling on my part. Though what makes it feel worse in my opinion is DH keeping the camera on the casters while GSL is showing the studio and the players setting up. | ||
|
dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On July 23 2020 05:20 JustPassingBy wrote: I just wanted to say that I really appreciate Rotti and any other caster making an effort to keep the viewers up to date on all the matches that are running at the same time! I respectfully disagree. I just compared the last broadcasts of DH and GSL just to make sure that I am not imagining things, while DH allows the casters to talk for over 6 minutes before a series (followed by a 3 minute break) Tastosis won't even get 3 full minutes before the screen cuts ingame. One can argue whether 6 minutes is "forever" and my 5 minutes of research is not representative, but I don't think DH giving the casters significantly more screentime is a mere feeling on my part. Though what makes it feel worse in my opinion is DH keeping the camera on the casters while GSL is showing the studio and the players setting up. Well there is obviously quote a difference between online and Offline Produktion. Just getting the 5+ language casters, admins, observer, ... in the Lobby and checking everyone is there, nicht take some time for online events. Also there is no Studio to Show either. Break fehlt still to long, but the countdown part, the talking part was fine for me | ||
|
Cricketer12
United States13967 Posts
On July 22 2020 06:30 col_jung wrote: I was curious about this one too. For a Kr vs EU match, one of them will always be at a latency disadvantage? For the finals of season finals they swapped between US West and Central, I assume something similar was done for whole season | ||
|
ZombieGrub
United States692 Posts
QUOTE]On July 23 2020 05:20 JustPassingBy wrote: On July 23 2020 01:20 feardragon wrote: Here's the thing, I sympathize that not everyone can watch both(or all 4) streams at once. It's not even that you're the minority for not being able to but remember that the majority of viewers either *can* watch multiple streams at once(even the mobile twitch app allows for squad stream viewing so long as you have the internet for it) or the people watching don't care enough to watch both streams. Ultimately for someone like Rotterdam, it's his job to paint the full picture for the event: that's what he's been hired to do. Things that happen in the other matches are important sometimes to the current ongoing match. For example, when we were toward the end of the group stage, the results of the other matches could change the requirements of what scoreline a player needed in the current match to advance. This paints a different context for that match. It's no longer about just winning because now even taking a single map can change the tide of things and create different expectations & meaning. Maybe a player will play safer knowing that they have to 2-0 their opponent or maybe a player knows they just need one map win so they'll throw out some crazy cheeses just to sneak one in. I think whenever Rotti brought up other matches, it usually added to things. I just wanted to say that I really appreciate Rotti and any other caster making an effort to keep the viewers up to date on all the matches that are running at the same time! On July 23 2020 01:20 feardragon wrote: The other thing I'll say is that while I know as a viewer(trust me I've been there) it feels like the casters talk FOREVER between breaks, the reality is we don't actually end up talking that much. If you look at the actual exchanges, we end up basically each saying about 3 things each. Usually the first thing is about the previous game, the second is a bit more open ended to our own choice depending on the situation, and the third thing is about the next upcoming series.There's not always a good chance to sneak in how meaningful the results of some other match was. Hope that made sense. I am happy people are posting feedback though and even the suggestions I don't agree with tend to come from a place I can understand. P.S. I'm not speaking on behalf of DreamHack or ESL or anything. I'm only speaking for myself. Also I got a new keyboard and I really wanted to type with it. I respectfully disagree. I just compared the last broadcasts of DH and GSL just to make sure that I am not imagining things, while DH allows the casters to talk for over 6 minutes before a series (followed by a 3 minute break) Tastosis won't even get 3 full minutes before the screen cuts ingame. One can argue whether 6 minutes is "forever" and my 5 minutes of research is not representative, but I don't think DH giving the casters significantly more screentime is a mere feeling on my part. Though what makes it feel worse in my opinion is DH keeping the camera on the casters while GSL is showing the studio and the players setting up. GSL is not what you should be comparing this to, you should instead compare it to an offline DH or IEM and then make sure to consider what changing to online might disrupt. For instance, yes in an offline DH there would be player shots of setting up, but that's not really possible online. As for the difference between DH Summer and GSL, the actual organization of things (getting players and spectators in lobby and such) takes a bit longer sometimes. GSL does not have a desk format to begin with, so it would be like if only Rotti and feardragon were on all the time 100%. You could say you find the desk format unnecessary then, since Tastosis do a fine job or TSL worked great without it, but that would be a different conversation I think. Also, how long are the ads on GSL? Genuine question. Additionally, and I'm not sure how Afreeca works, but Twitch requires a certain amount of Twitch ads player in their contracts sometimes, so there may be catering there to consider. | ||
|
ZombieGrub
United States692 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3091 Posts
| ||
|
ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On July 23 2020 05:53 Cricketer12 wrote: For the finals of season finals they swapped between US West and Central, I assume something similar was done for whole season It depends. They have a crosstable of regions and which servers should be used. That crosstable was in the rulebook so viewers that cared enough could look it up. For Reynor vs Korean for example it's all US West which generally speaking puts Reynor at a slight disadvantage. For Serral vs Korean they alternate between West and Central (due to Finland being further away) which generally speaking puts Serral at a slight advantage (Korea to Chicago should be a bit worse than Finland to LA). Things do depend on the individual players' ISPs and other factors so these generalities might not always be true. But yeah usually there will be a latency advantage one way or another. I'm sure ESL is working hard behind the scenes to find the fairest possible solution given that some players like Heromarine and Reynor seemed rather unhappy about drawing the short end of the latency stick. | ||
|
Russano
United States425 Posts
On July 23 2020 01:20 feardragon wrote: Ultimately for someone like Rotterdam, it's his job to paint the full picture for the event: that's what he's been hired to do. Things that happen in the other matches are important sometimes to the current ongoing match. For example, when we were toward the end of the group stage, the results of the other matches could change the requirements of what scoreline a player needed in the current match to advance. This paints a different context for that match. It's no longer about just winning because now even taking a single map can change the tide of things and create different expectations & meaning. Maybe a player will play safer knowing that they have to 2-0 their opponent or maybe a player knows they just need one map win so they'll throw out some crazy cheeses just to sneak one in. I think whenever Rotti brought up other matches, it usually added to things. The other thing I'll say is that while I know as a viewer(trust me I've been there) it feels like the casters talk FOREVER between breaks, the reality is we don't actually end up talking that much. If you look at the actual exchanges, we end up basically each saying about 3 things each. Usually the first thing is about the previous game, the second is a bit more open ended to our own choice depending on the situation, and the third thing is about the next upcoming series.There's not always a good chance to sneak in how meaningful the results of some other match was. Hope that made sense. I am happy people are posting feedback though and even the suggestions I don't agree with tend to come from a place I can understand. P.S. I'm not speaking on behalf of DreamHack or ESL or anything. I'm only speaking for myself. Also I got a new keyboard and I really wanted to type with it. Right. I already stated I knew why it was done. My feedback is that I hated that one thing. Do with that what you will. You're welcome to ignore my opinion in favor of a different or more populous opinion. If you change it, my experience is improved. If you don't, it isn't. And as an aside: Watching four streams at once is an abomination. Like puting pineapple on pizza. | ||
|
dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On July 23 2020 09:37 Russano wrote: Right. I already stated I knew why it was done. My feedback is that I hated that one thing. Do with that what you will. You're welcome to ignore my opinion in favor of a different or more populous opinion. If you change it, my experience is improved. If you don't, it isn't. And as an aside: Watching four streams at once is an abomination. Like puting pineapple on pizza. 4 would be quite the Overkill indeed  but 2 is absolutly doable I feel | ||
|
BaneRiders
Sweden3630 Posts
On July 22 2020 06:16 Elentos wrote: Something I forgot to mention in the survey - shame on me - was the scheduling of the EU masters groups. I think the constant switching between the round robin groups confused a ton of people. Yes. I have nothing against big groups, but it was rather hard to follow when you cannot sit 100% of the time in front of the computer. At some point I felt it difficult to get into the tournament and stopped trying to follow it. Just watched occasionally without really keeping track of what was going on. | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On July 23 2020 08:21 NoS-Craig wrote: I felt the breaks between games where a bit long at times. Other than that I really enjoyed DH. Didn't feel that way to me. The breaks were what I expected them to be. Like 10 minutes between a series makes sort of sense considering players need to be ready, someone might need a few minutes break, there needs to be vetoing etc. Also some longer breaks were also needed either due to (technical) issues or simply because you can't expect the grand final to start immediately after the last player played the his semi - I guess everyone reasonable would have expected that 30(?) min break there. | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany6802 Posts
On July 23 2020 07:58 ZombieGrub wrote: Also, how long are the ads on GSL? Genuine question. Additionally, and I'm not sure how Afreeca works, but Twitch requires a certain amount of Twitch ads player in their contracts sometimes, so there may be catering there to consider. I think that needs some clarification. What I read so far on TL.net, nobody is bothered by ads at all. Everyone knows ads are part of this. Hell I even would say play more ads! Everything is better than watching a cooldown timer run out for 20 min | ||
|
Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
| ||
| ||
