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I think these changes may or may not have the desired effects on ZvP, PvT and PvP, but are definitely gonna ruin ZvT.
The creep tumor change makes 0 sense. They acknowledge TvZ being fairly balanced right now, go on to propose bane nerf, queen nerf and mine buff, supposedly to fix the other matchups, and then the creep-tumor nerf to top it off. I mean, i understand that it technically counts as a PvZ buff too, since oracles could kill it now, but just how often does a P go for early oracle (to clear creep or otherwise)? 1 in 10 games at most.
How many games does a terran in TVZ go reaper and/or hellions to harass/keep check on the zerg? at least 9/10 times. It's a very big help for early TvZ, and a minor help for early PvZ.
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Queens have been massively OP as combat units for years. Pro Zergs build large numbers of them regardless of map or build because they create excessive value both as macro units and as combat units. Zerg is lucky that only 1 air range was removed from this OP unit.
Having to make an Armory to get cloaked mines is much slower than the HotS cloaked fast mine drop, which was not really a problem in the first place. Faster burrow time is where 90% of the value of the upgrade is, and since Armory mines are much slower, this is not going to change pro defense against mine drops.
A good patch overall.
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It's a good patch for helping every Zerg that already have painful experience beeing the punchingball of the other races, fighting the mech deathball, the skytoss, to quit the game.
I mean you see the Serral won, but the ladder experience of a Zerg is just not fun.
You are AFK for 6mins+ because they decided to remove every agressive options you had.
You can't attack as T/P defence is unbreakable (but they dare to say that you shouldn't be allowed to survive when they harass you, they had produced a unit, they rally into your base, and you should die).
In lategame, well between the turtle mech, and the skytoss guy, where you are just allowed to turtle harder and build spores, and wait to starve the deathball guy because you can't engage it (and balance team has made sure broodlords/infestor, or every T3 units you have is a trash unit, to make sure you can't beat them in direct fight, so you should be stuck playing for hours versus these guys playing anti-play).
Honestly, there is no point playing this game anymore, the community is the most toxic one i've ever seen, the balance choice are awful, this games had so much potential, but it's managed by people who has no knowledge, no passion for this game, so it's a disaster.
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Like those changes but would also like them to have another look at the Liberator which is really bad since the range nerf.
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On April 29 2020 16:55 Tyrhanius wrote:
It's a good patch for helping every Zerg that already have painful experience beeing the punchingball of the other races, fighting the mech deathball, the skytoss, to quit the game.
I mean you see the Serral won, but the ladder experience of a Zerg is just not fun.
You are AFK for 6mins+ because they decided to remove every agressive options you had.
You can't attack as T/P defence is unbreakable (but they dare to say that you shouldn't be allowed to survive when they harass you, they had produced a unit, they rally into your base, and you should die).
In lategame, well between the turtle mech, and the skytoss guy, where you are just allowed to turtle harder and build spores, and wait to starve the deathball guy because you can't engage it (and balance team has made sure broodlords/infestor, or every T3 units you have is a trash unit, to make sure you can't beat them in direct fight, so you should be stuck playing for hours versus these guys playing anti-play).
Honestly, there is no point playing this game anymore, the community is the most toxic one i've ever seen, the balance choice are awful, this games had so much potential, but it's managed by people who has no knowledge, no passion for this game, so it's a disaster.
I feel you.
If you're around Diamond like me then you can try something I did. I felt there's always so many answers to what I do and not so much I can do, so I decided trying the matchup from the other side and learn from other zergs that way. Queued up as terran and played mech and see what's effective. And I had some of the best games I've had in years.
Injected larva and creep are great boons, but holy shit they don't hold a candle to what's available as Terran. I don't want to come across as balance whining but I haven't felt this powerful in Sc2 in years. I had so many games where I just stood firm and blasted everything coming my way all the way until he's fully mined out, and I'd just stomp him down with a 3/3 200/200 army. I don't know why so many people complain about abduct, I found I could just let him abduct all he wants it doesn't make a difference. Any time he's not banging on the gates I just zip out with a couple of hellions and clear out a few mineral lines, and it doesn't matter if he holds them because by the time they're dead the next cycle of hellions are already built and on their way to somewhere else.
Thors, firebats and siege tank can seriously hold anything if you have their ratios right, which you can assure by scanning his army. Get a few ghosts and snipe/emp if he's heavy on the spellcasts. Use scans to find where they are. You have omnipresent detection and his can be sniped.
Balance whine or not, but terran mech plays very very similarly to WoL zerg. You can just sit at home until the other guy exhausts his options and then go for him. I don't know if this holds true for higher levels of play, I'm sure masters zergs are much smarter than me. Maybe someone else have similar experiences.
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On April 29 2020 16:32 Poopi wrote:
And the shield battery overcharge remind me of the dark days of pylon shooting / nexus
There is a fundamental difference because this overcharge helps support the protoss army, rather than killing an enemy army by itself.
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Im a retard wrong thread  pls remove
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On April 29 2020 16:55 Tyrhanius wrote:
It's a good patch for helping every Zerg that already have painful experience beeing the punchingball of the other races, fighting the mech deathball, the skytoss, to quit the game.
I mean you see the Serral won, but the ladder experience of a Zerg is just not fun.
You are AFK for 6mins+ because they decided to remove every agressive options you had.
You can't attack as T/P defence is unbreakable (but they dare to say that you shouldn't be allowed to survive when they harass you, they had produced a unit, they rally into your base, and you should die).
In lategame, well between the turtle mech, and the skytoss guy, where you are just allowed to turtle harder and build spores, and wait to starve the deathball guy because you can't engage it (and balance team has made sure broodlords/infestor, or every T3 units you have is a trash unit, to make sure you can't beat them in direct fight, so you should be stuck playing for hours versus these guys playing anti-play).
Honestly, there is no point playing this game anymore, the community is the most toxic one i've ever seen, the balance choice are awful, this games had so much potential, but it's managed by people who has no knowledge, no passion for this game, so it's a disaster.
Haha, exactly this. If this patch is gonna come it will be the final death blow to the game.
While I play teamgames only for several years, I here and then try to get back into 1v1s sometimes to see if it is any fun and inspiring, also to experience current builds and meta.
As zerg you then realize you have no attack options at all early. And even later you can hardly attack armies of the other races consisting of e.g. immortal/HT/disruptor, which do mass dmg against any unit you can have.
In lategame it is just bullshit to play against lets say Carrier/Tempest + HT/Archon ground support army. It just wrecks everything that comes close and you need a perfect engagement with perfect unit combination from perfect positioning and that 2-3 times in a row. That kind of Protoss army can be hold in one group to be a-moved around and spell casted at the same time. You probably need 2x the skill to kill it with Zerg than what protoss needs to win with that army.
I didn't have a chance to get many games of ZvT (maybe 1-2? ;D) so I can't go much into detail about that. And especially due to the passive queen meta I didn't like this matchup for a long time. But what is safe to say is, if you already now need like 6(?) queens stacked upon each other to defend a single T3 unit porting into your base in the early game (lol) and basically lose the game if you are only short one queen, you after that patch will need +1 or +2 queens and this will get even worse. Zergs don't like to build queens (at least me), there simply is no other option to defend all kind of stuff without getting massively behind. Thats a design flaw created by moving hydras to tier 2 in the very beginning of SC2.
Thors seem pretty strong these days. There is nothing that actually counters them other than lings and spellcasters, which can be easily deflected by hellbats. They feel like mammoth tanks in C&C back in the days. It is way harder to play against thors than to a-move thors around in company of a few hellbats.
Mines seem to be in a good position in ZvT as is. Terrans already now can easily abuse them if they know you are an offensive player and like to attack more often than average by simply mixing in some of them in any phase of the game (e.g. helion phase) and making all attacks (sacrificing drones for some more attack units) ineffective. Making them invisible with a building that is not a thowback but something you anyway want to have for tech and later options will remove the ability of zerg to do any attacks without massive loses from e. g. 3x 25 gas units. ZvT(mech) will become even more awkward. Your broodlords get 3-4 shot by 10-12 thors. Ultras do nothing. All you can do is moving around with double spell-caster and mind-control/pull and wait for attacks to deflect. How would that be any fun if a normal ling/roach/hydra army loses 100-120 supply vs. mech terran while the terran loses only ~30 supply in a 200 vs. 200 engagement without any spellcasters?
Nexus overcharge will completely eliminate the ability of zerg to ever deal damage to protoss other than with lucky baneling hits while the protoss doesn't see it and hence doesn't pull probes away in time. 1-2 units (e. g. a single left behind archon) or cannons with overcharged batteries will deflect everything long enough until the deathball arrives.
What I like is a baneling nerf, it is overdue. But it might need a compensation when done in that way, cause as others already mentioned you simply can't rely on them anymore if mines and tanks kill many more of them with a single shot again. Banelings with +1 or +2 damage attack upgrades should not be able to 1-shot (lol) peons. Maybe it makes more sense to nerf that damage instead of 5 HP which only makes them more reliable and less volatile. Imo banelings should be a unit that deal 20+2 damage (cost ~15 gas then) not the one of 2 units that whole zerg play evolves around and that makes you die when you have only 6 instead of 8 at an early terran timing.
I would like the queen nerf as well if there were any options of compensating for it with different playstyles (which there are not other than moving hydra to tier 1) and if that didn't result in just building even more queens.
Overall horrible patchnotes which probably result from one thing:
EU has been very Z heavy in the past, I guess there were about as many Z players as T + P together. Resulting from that is that EU created a lot of high level zerg players. They benefit from each other due to networking effecfs (training with each other, advising each other, copying each other, etc.).
This is not a general case. Look at NA/America altogether. Who is noteable Zerg there? Scarlett. Probably I forget 1-2 other guys. Anyway it is pretty balanced.
Whats up in Korea? It seems pretty balanced. There are about 3 top players of each race. EU is different cause of personal preference of players which I haven't yet got to understand.
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On April 29 2020 17:27 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 16:55 Tyrhanius wrote:
It's a good patch for helping every Zerg that already have painful experience beeing the punchingball of the other races, fighting the mech deathball, the skytoss, to quit the game.
I mean you see the Serral won, but the ladder experience of a Zerg is just not fun.
You are AFK for 6mins+ because they decided to remove every agressive options you had.
You can't attack as T/P defence is unbreakable (but they dare to say that you shouldn't be allowed to survive when they harass you, they had produced a unit, they rally into your base, and you should die).
In lategame, well between the turtle mech, and the skytoss guy, where you are just allowed to turtle harder and build spores, and wait to starve the deathball guy because you can't engage it (and balance team has made sure broodlords/infestor, or every T3 units you have is a trash unit, to make sure you can't beat them in direct fight, so you should be stuck playing for hours versus these guys playing anti-play).
Honestly, there is no point playing this game anymore, the community is the most toxic one i've ever seen, the balance choice are awful, this games had so much potential, but it's managed by people who has no knowledge, no passion for this game, so it's a disaster. I feel you. If you're around Diamond like me then you can try something I did. I felt there's always so many answers to what I do and not so much I can do, so I decided trying the matchup from the other side and learn from other zergs that way. Queued up as terran and played mech and see what's effective. And I had some of the best games I've had in years. Injected larva and creep are great boons, but holy shit they don't hold a candle to what's available as Terran. I don't want to come across as balance whining but I haven't felt this powerful in Sc2 in years. I had so many games where I just stood firm and blasted everything coming my way all the way until he's fully mined out, and I'd just stomp him down with a 3/3 200/200 army. I don't know why so many people complain about abduct, I found I could just let him abduct all he wants it doesn't make a difference. Any time he's not banging on the gates I just zip out with a couple of hellions and clear out a few mineral lines, and it doesn't matter if he holds them because by the time they're dead the next cycle of hellions are already built and on their way to somewhere else. Thors, firebats and siege tank can seriously hold anything if you have their ratios right, which you can assure by scanning his army. Get a few ghosts and snipe/emp if he's heavy on the spellcasts. Use scans to find where they are. You have omnipresent detection and his can be sniped. Balance whine or not, but terran mech plays very very similarly to WoL zerg. You can just sit at home until the other guy exhausts his options and then go for him. I don't know if this holds true for higher levels of play, I'm sure masters zergs are much smarter than me. Maybe someone else have similar experiences.
Sounds like you should just switch to Terran.
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On April 29 2020 18:09 pvsnp wrote:
Sounds like you should just switch to Terran.
Already did  I think most zergs got attached to WoL zerg that has changed into something different since then. And terran did too.
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I have been reflecting on the current TvZ meta which has started to resemble the HotS era somewhat. The bio v baneling micro is heavily featured again. The extra boost that centrifugal hooks got in a former patch looks to have balanced out with the improved marine splitting of current terrans. To me, TvZ seems balanced as it is.
The we have protoss. The banes are massive vs the protoss army. Force fields was the old way of stopping them. Ravagers can remove the ff + banes are faster, so the ff need to be quicker. Add to that the extra ~14% health, making them survive more on their way to the opposing army.
The balancing of 3 races, givng more than 1 mu to consider, is hard.
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in M3 you already should know all the bullshit which the other 2 race could do, you have to scout it and react perfectly, since they just copy one of Parting's robo build or something like that and kill you straight, for T its quite the same, they could copy a 2 base timing and kill you straight or make a huge advantage
but you probably dont know how to counter all these bullshits since you're in M3, in the highest level these changes probably makes sense, but in lower leagues zergs will suffer for sure
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queue all the doom and gloom zerg players calling this patch the end of the world lol
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On April 29 2020 18:40 starkiller123 wrote:
queue all the doom and gloom zerg players calling this patch the end of the world lol
yeah i see your point how invisible widow mines and less range on queens solves the problems they're currently having lol
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On April 29 2020 18:42 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 18:40 starkiller123 wrote:
queue all the doom and gloom zerg players calling this patch the end of the world lol yeah i see your point how invisible widow mines and less range on queens solves the problems they're currently having lol
maybe we should just wait and see before people start claiming this patch will kill the game, really the widow mine change is not even that big, its like people has forgotten that we played with cloaked widow mines for three years of Hots
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On April 29 2020 18:47 starkiller123 wrote:
maybe we should just wait and see before people start claiming this patch will kill the game, really the widow mine change is not even that big, its like people has forgotten that we played with cloaked widow mines for three years of Hots
Of course this patch won't kill the game and it's too early to say it will ruin everything, but could you point out anything in here that's beneficial to all the "gloomy zergs"
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I'm sorry but expecting zerg to get buffs right now is just insane, pvz has been borderline broken for months now
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On April 29 2020 18:56 starkiller123 wrote:
I'm sorry but expecting zerg to get buffs right now is just insane, pvz has been borderline broken for months now
I don't disagree. The biggest problems for zerg is over reliance on queens and having too few aggressive options.
As terran/protoss you can send out hellions/oracle/reaper and harass mineral lines. Zerg sorely miss this kind of option.
As terran/protoss you can set the opponent on the back foot by doing some kind of proxy or bunker/cannon. Zerg sorely miss this kind of option.
A warp prism with immortals is very powerful, as is a medivac with stim Marines. Zerg just can't put this kind of pressure.
Zerg can send in ravagers early and harass the front wall, which is okay, but it's similar to doing cyclone wall harass in that it sort of runs out of steam. Nydus with swam host harass is excellent, but it's terrible to play against so should be tuned somehow.
As a zerg you have a large army which slowly pushes forward on creep. This is fine from a race identity perspective but all zerg needs is some way to poke at the opponent that forces a response, like dropping Marines. What bored me as a zerg player was having few options here. I can't be cheeky and send out a few ghosts to nuke, or drop widow mines on top of workers. Zerg wants to be cheeky too.
And mass early queens is boring for everyone and needs to go.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On April 29 2020 06:32 seopthi wrote:
I like all changes except the Battery Overcharge for the following concerns:
1) 75 energy is a lot and it will be tough to use when build orders rely on casting Chrono Boost whenever available. Saving energy could result in being too behind economically.
2) It's also tough to manage energy by location since the battery needs to be in the range of the Nexus. Currently, everyone has all Nexuses on one hotkey and just casting Chrono when available. Now, one will need to make sure that it is the Nexus in the front that has energy available -- possibly it will need not to be in the control group, but then it's harder to build probes.
3) If I remember correctly - the old Pylon Overcharge had large mana cost and long duration, but there was the problem of the attacker just waiting it out. Then it was changed for much lower mana cost + lower duration.
I have the same concern - e.g., Zerg does Ravager all-in. The Protoss will be able to use this ability once, after which the Zerg can just wait outside and amass more units before actually attacking. I fear this window of time won't change anything.
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However, I am glad they are not afraid to experiment with new abilities. Personally, I would welcome something (a building or an ability) that would allow for better walling. There are so many games that end abruptly with lings flooding into the base because of misplaced Zealot in the wall.
This is not a good experience not only for low ranked players for whom it really is hard to manage the walling - but also for viewers of pro games. I've a bad memory, but I believe it was Neeb vs Reynor very recently, where two games in a row (until that point) a regular game just ended because of a misplaced Zealot. If even Neeb cannot do this reliably, 99% of the player base cannot be expected to do that. The games end suddenly, unexpectedly, and whatever happens until then is irrelevant. Obviously, it is unintentional (it's not just a bad decision) by the defender and it feels very random. This causes volatility of similar nature that's probably criticized as an issue in pvp.
Agreed on all of this
Walling problem happens all of the time even in pro games. With some walling positions it's merely annoying, with others it's damn near impossible to get the unit on the exact right spot so that zerglings can't walk past on either side - and then it has to be repositioned over and over again as you take units in/out of the wall so there is cumulative opportunity for errors.
This is fine from a race identity perspective but all zerg needs is some way to poke at the opponent that forces a response, like dropping Marines. What bored me as a zerg player was having few options here. I can't be cheeky and send out a few ghosts to nuke, or drop widow mines on top of workers. Zerg wants to be cheeky too.
Serral is really good at this and has decided many games using tools like overlord harass drops in the early to midgame. Zerglings are pretty good, banelings two-shot large clumps of workers and that turns into a one-shot when you have +1 melee. It's probably even scarier than widow mines because there is no burrow delay and it's more challenging to manage overlords than medivacs. If you don't see the dot on the minimap (which often comes in during other action) then the game can instantly end at the same time you get an audio alert and i don't think that's very good game design.
I think a lot of this is lack of imagination/multitasking since some players already have great success with tools like this and when they were buffed further - especially by making tools like drop and nydus available earlier in the game, often before warpgate - they just broke the game.
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EPT
