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The queen anti-air range change is good and should have been done when they nerfed liberator range. It will open up more harass opportunities for Protoss and Terran, which is good. The creep change is reasonable too because creep has seemed bordering on too strong for a long time, and the previous change didn't seem to have as much of an effect as was hoped. I still think a vision change for creep tumours would be a far better way to go about dealing with that issue.
The baneling change is concerning because it will make tanks, mines, and other splash damage far better against them, and with how close TvZ is right now, it could tip the favour toward terran. I agree with the Blizzard folks that banelings have been somewhat problematic but I think some type of damage-related tweak would be better than lowering their health like this. But yes, I am glad they are looking at banelings. Having seen pro games where the zerg just makes a bajillion banelings then proceeds to bulldoze armies that would theoretically counter banelings, it's something that's needed some looking at.
The mine change seems iffy. They talked about wanting to move TvP away from sudden game endings but cloaked mines are one of the units that strongly contributed to games ending in a couple of seconds in the past. This change may cause Protoss to have to expand slower and make sure they have detection. However, when paired with the oracle change, it doesn't seem as bad.
The revelation change is very good. It lasting a shorter period of time might cause issues against lurkers and the like but being able to cast two spells for the same amount of energy can solve that issue. It also makes revelation seem like much less of an all-or-nothing spell since it is both cheaper to cast and thus get energy for, and it allows you to detect more units for the same energy. Every Protoss has played against lurkers and missed hitting one or two lurkers with the spell only to lose a chunk of their army because they didn't know they missed them and didn't have energy for a second cast.
The feedback change is logical and makes sense. That battery change doesn't seem like it solves much and I can see proxy robo still being an issue in PvP. The suggestion someone had before to have a nexus spell to transfer energy to the shield battery seems better and has actual tradeoffs.
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On April 29 2020 06:02 brickrd wrote:
the widow mine change is ridiculous and will result in the game being much less fun for non professional players. defending mines is already a sufficient and fair challenge for sub-pro players.
not sure exactly what it would do at pro level, but it seems like it would necessitate blind defensive observer play in every game since proxying an armory in tvp for invisible mines feels like a trivial tradeoff if the meta favors blink or stargate
I mean in hots, terran mines had perma stelth and early on biger aoe, and toss was considered favored in pvt. I don't think this is nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be, the only big diffrence is that now toss wont be able to go roboless double upgrade fast third, the existence of which force terran to always have the option to do a big 2 base allin to deny a third because if toss gets away with it unchecked they become nigh unstoppable. I think especially with the oracle change you wont see this be a large balance issue.
Additionally consider the fact that this still requires Terran to build an armory while on 2 base and nowhere near 2-2 upgrades. Because of the overall meta game Terran tends to be broke as a joke in the early game of tvp so spending money on a mostly useless building that might be good if your opponent skips observers seems not that great to me. I really don't think this change will do much.
On the other hand toss is getting a huge defensive buff with the shield battery overcharge that may turn out to be way way to good vs tank pushes that are central to terran's game-plan. I don't see this patch at all helping terran in tvp, its a massive nerf in an already slightly toss favored matchup.
Honestly I'm not even sure if the widow mine change will be impact full at all in tvp. I think it could be much bigger in tvz however were cloak is actually really strong on mines because often it allows them to survive an engagement during a terran push and then get a second round of hits latter, I'm honestly a little worried that nerfing banes at the same time that they are giving mines this buff will be to strong for bio tvz.
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PvZ is my best matchup and PvT is my worst, glad Blizz is minmaxing my winrate.
I do like the introduction of new abilities for the sake of novelty, so I'm very curious how this Nexus recharge ability will play out 
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Canada8989 Posts
I think I like the batterie overcharge thing, it's not something I had thought of but I think it could help pvp a lot, it's kind of like giving protoss bunker that they can repair.
Not sure about giving it 75 energy tho, I feel like 50 energy would have been enough. Although I guess 75 energy makes it even more hard to do any kind of proxy thing with it.
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honestly I think that this patch will make toss way to strong in tvp, high level toss players realy wont be impacted much by the cloack change since it requires armory.... why would a terran on 2 base ever want to build an armory? on the other hand the shield battery overcharge will help to reinforce the extremely greedy fast thirds that lead to the bad dynamic the mu currently has. This is a bad patch for Terran in tvp. Toss already had to make detection any way because Terran were opening banshees which are just as accessible than an armory if not more so.
Also rip zergs, bio tvz was already strong on this patch with these maps, now they have to deal with free cloak on mines, in an mu were terran almost always will be going for 3 base and +2/+2 ups so they will always get the benifit of cloak on mines. In adition banes are nerfed. Im sure zerg will find a way, the race has so many strengths it always does but this is a prity large and probably uneeded buff for terran in tvz.... (edit, also now terran has the option to mix in widow mines with cyclone helion battle mech much earlier which will make it much better vs banes.)
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
On April 29 2020 09:25 Xain0n wrote:
Terran doesn't really need buffs, nerfing queens is not a good idea now that air harassment can be extremely effective and I don't know how to judge the shield battery overcharge.
Blizzard has the right take on the matchups, not sure if the solutions are the right ones on the other hand.
spores are your best friends build then, the same way i need to put turret when u do mutalisk
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Banelings need a straight up damage nerf vs armored targets and a hard one. They are way 2 cost efficient vs anything ground units and buildings.
Baneling runbys are smashing entire nexuses or planetary's, calculate the amount of banelings you need to blow up and expand with 30 workers in 1 go and you can tell just from math perspective how broken this unit is.
Imagine banelings were never in the game and then you patch in a new unit called the baneling and first pro games you watch zergs blow up entire expansions with little investment that unit would be nerfed hard within a month.
You get 100 banelings for 50 supply, just roll that around in your head a little as I feel most people have forgot.
I understand Blizzard are scared of drastic changes but this is really getting out of hand I don't know why people can be so blind to things obviously broken in this game.
As for the Widowmine I don't understand why you want widowmine drops to be even stronger vs protoss, widowmine harass is already too strong vs protoss. Even if you scout WM drop builds and you go phoenix or blink stalkers, Terrans are still finding their way in at times if protoss is unlucky or is looking somewhere else just at the wrong time and ending a game in a few clicks because widowmines wipe out their entire economy in one move. Baneling works the same way here, and is also way to strong at economy harass.
Personally I feel that giving a small number of units the ability to completely end games within seconds when the risk of doing so is very small is not healthy for gameplay , bad balance and if fair is fair, give protoss a damn unit that can demolish an entire mineral line within 2 seconds. ( And before you say Protoss can storm drop then you need to understand protoss have tried to use this as a build but it is to expensive and not viable until the later stages of the game )
If you are wondering why the best protosses we have are so inconsistent these past years you need only look at units like widowmine drops and banelings ending games they shouldnt.
Ravager also need a heavy nerf, Zergs should be forced to use more of their tech tree, they can fight high tier armies with pure ling bane ravager for way to long before they get forced to switch, in this time they eat up the entire map.
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On April 29 2020 12:53 BonitiilloO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 09:25 Xain0n wrote:
Terran doesn't really need buffs, nerfing queens is not a good idea now that air harassment can be extremely effective and I don't know how to judge the shield battery overcharge.
Blizzard has the right take on the matchups, not sure if the solutions are the right ones on the other hand. spores are your best friends build then, the same way i need to put turret when u do mutalisk
Spores versus battlecruisers that can shoot while moving.
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On April 29 2020 12:54 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 12:53 BonitiilloO wrote:On April 29 2020 09:25 Xain0n wrote:
Terran doesn't really need buffs, nerfing queens is not a good idea now that air harassment can be extremely effective and I don't know how to judge the shield battery overcharge.
Blizzard has the right take on the matchups, not sure if the solutions are the right ones on the other hand. spores are your best friends build then, the same way i need to put turret when u do mutalisk Spores versus battlecruisers that can shoot while moving.
I mean they do zone them away, I think weve reached a point where bc open usualy does not do alot of dmg, but zerg has to invest enogh into defense that its still a solid choice for terran as long as they dont get rolled by a ravager allin before hand.
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Banes and queens thank god.
I'm not sure about all the rest.
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While I like early game buffs for terran vs protoss, I'm not sure what they achieve by that.
While thinking that stupid shit like proxy armories and hellbat timings will actually be a thing (really guys) its just a strange change overall, by the time you have an armory you aren't doing WM drops really, it still leaves tank pushes as the best option.
Rushing for armories for WM drops would just be a stupid weird meta build, akin to going fast lib range.
If anything the WM buff just makes tank pushes (and general mid game) the terrans best options even more, because you can transition to WM and 2/2 easily than before. Wich is not the change the game needs.
WMs are fine.
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Defending mines is harder to defend than to drop, and they are already low cost and effective - buffing them makes no sense. Maru has shown us they are already devastating.
Zerg need a nerf so this looks overdue. At so many pro tournaments, it has been so predictable that the other races just try to kill Zerg early as they know late game is no chance against smart good Zerg.
I like the direction of trying to stablise PvP , Im not sure that is the way though, worth a try.
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Zurich15361 Posts
I am already struggling hard ZvT  this is rough.
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Where are you David kim ?
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On April 29 2020 12:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
Banelings need a straight up damage nerf vs armored targets and a hard one. They are way 2 cost efficient vs anything ground units and buildings.
Baneling runbys are smashing entire nexuses or planetary's, calculate the amount of banelings you need to blow up and expand with 30 workers in 1 go and you can tell just from math perspective how broken this unit is.
Imagine banelings were never in the game and then you patch in a new unit called the baneling and first pro games you watch zergs blow up entire expansions with little investment that unit would be nerfed hard within a month.
You get 100 banelings for 50 supply, just roll that around in your head a little as I feel most people have forgot.
I understand Blizzard are scared of drastic changes but this is really getting out of hand I don't know why people can be so blind to things obviously broken in this game.
As for the Widowmine I don't understand why you want widowmine drops to be even stronger vs protoss, widowmine harass is already too strong vs protoss. Even if you scout WM drop builds and you go phoenix or blink stalkers, Terrans are still finding their way in at times if protoss is unlucky or is looking somewhere else just at the wrong time and ending a game in a few clicks because widowmines wipe out their entire economy in one move. Baneling works the same way here, and is also way to strong at economy harass.
Personally I feel that giving a small number of units the ability to completely end games within seconds when the risk of doing so is very small is not healthy for gameplay , bad balance and if fair is fair, give protoss a damn unit that can demolish an entire mineral line within 2 seconds. ( And before you say Protoss can storm drop then you need to understand protoss have tried to use this as a build but it is to expensive and not viable until the later stages of the game )
If you are wondering why the best protosses we have are so inconsistent these past years you need only look at units like widowmine drops and banelings ending games they shouldnt.
Ravager also need a heavy nerf, Zergs should be forced to use more of their tech tree, they can fight high tier armies with pure ling bane ravager for way to long before they get forced to switch, in this time they eat up the entire map.
protoss has the disruptor a unit that if you oponent is cought not looking at thier army they can lose 20 supply or more of units in an instant, I think that's fairly even.
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So in order to help protoss we're going to improve tvz for terran, buff one of the most volatile units in tvp, make protoss players manage energy for specific nexuses for some niche situations, and give the high templar 1 range. Mmmk. We're totally not going to be the lagging race anymore.
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I really like these Changes, a bit unsure about the overcharge but if it costs 75 energy to buy yourself 21 seconds maybe it isn't so strong that I initially was worried about. Most protoss builds makes use of chrono, if they want to save for the an overcharge they will likely lack an early upgrade or a unit or two instead.
The widow mine change feels incredibly good to me, I can understand that WM drops dont really need a buff and that the drops are obnoxious however please take a moment to consider WMs role in the terran army.
Widow mines are meant as traps, either throughout the map or if your harassment unit needs to back off. They are designed to be used freely as multiprong all over the map however the way they are designed now with an upgrade needed for the cloak the cloak is pretty much useless. At the Point that you have an armory and enough Money to upgrade WM cloak you already have such a large army that the small scale skirmihes all over the map are over, we are looking at late mid game here at which Point WMs role is mostly over (besides random traps or harass defense).
WMs role should be early-mid game where this upgrade just isn't viable, you need an armory AND a factory with a Tech lab meaning you also need to go double factory because if you are only producing WM from a simple factory with a Tech lab its clearly not Worth to upgrade cloak.
A the moment WM in early-mid game which is the phase were they are supposed to be used is basically a throw away unit. You hope you get one great shot off, pretty much an expensive gambly baneling.
Any change that moves the game more towards a lot of small skirmishes and away from all or nothing tank pushes are good in my book.
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On April 29 2020 13:47 Parcelleus wrote:
Defending mines is harder to defend than to drop, and they are already low cost and effective - buffing them makes no sense. Maru has shown us they are already devastating.
Zerg need a nerf so this looks overdue. At so many pro tournaments, it has been so predictable that the other races just try to kill Zerg early as they know late game is no chance against smart good Zerg.
I like the direction of trying to stablise PvP , Im not sure that is the way though, worth a try.
you d want to defend a slow but invisible WM drop build than the one that got both tho
i think mine style in TvZ would benefit this buff which is unnecessary but in TvP ? not so much may be it would make double WMs drop moar annoying
On April 29 2020 12:40 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 06:02 brickrd wrote:
the widow mine change is ridiculous and will result in the game being much less fun for non professional players. defending mines is already a sufficient and fair challenge for sub-pro players.
not sure exactly what it would do at pro level, but it seems like it would necessitate blind defensive observer play in every game since proxying an armory in tvp for invisible mines feels like a trivial tradeoff if the meta favors blink or stargate I mean in hots, terran mines had perma stelth and early on biger aoe, and toss was considered favored in pvt. I don't think this is nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be, the only big diffrence is that now toss wont be able to go roboless double upgrade fast third, the existence of which force terran to always have the option to do a big 2 base allin to deny a third because if toss gets away with it unchecked they become nigh unstoppable. I think especially with the oracle change you wont see this be a large balance issue. Additionally consider the fact that this still requires Terran to build an armory while on 2 base and nowhere near 2-2 upgrades. Because of the overall meta game Terran tends to be broke as a joke in the early game of tvp so spending money on a mostly useless building that might be good if your opponent skips observers seems not that great to me. I really don't think this change will do much. On the other hand toss is getting a huge defensive buff with the shield battery overcharge that may turn out to be way way to good vs tank pushes that are central to terran's game-plan. I don't see this patch at all helping terran in tvp, its a massive nerf in an already slightly toss favored matchup. Honestly I'm not even sure if the widow mine change will be impact full at all in tvp. I think it could be much bigger in tvz however were cloak is actually really strong on mines because often it allows them to survive an engagement during a terran push and then get a second round of hits latter, I'm honestly a little worried that nerfing banes at the same time that they are giving mines this buff will be to strong for bio tvz.
we shall see but my guess is if terran get siege tanks in right position the outcome is still likely a dead protoss
they might be even deadier if some dudes try to use the new overcharge to defend tanks push without naruto running chargelots
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France12908 Posts
ByuN you can come come back
They are officially summoning you for BlizzCon 2020
Weird window like change though
And the shield battery overcharge remind me of the dark days of pylon shooting / nexus
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I just don't understand why they had this idea that they should help Terran in ZvT. For god sake Clem just won vs Serral, which was impossible before Blizzcon patch. Just watch Clem vs Reynor lately. Reynor was basically helpless vs those massive bio+mine pushes. On Thior cancels infinity of mutas... This changes are to hard for Zerg and are basically insanely bad.
Just stop saying about HOTS ZvT, which was horrible because of mines being OP. They nerfed it later for a reason. Second thing is how much the game changed since then, esoecially with Protoss abd Terran buffs in harrasment, which were the reason of Queen buff in the first place. Now they buff the harrasment still, and nerf the Queen. Where is the reason in that? Creep was already nerfed hard, and now they nerf it again? What the fuck is happening there?
Scarlett is right. Zerg will now vanish from high level tournaments. Seeya on your stream.
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