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On April 29 2020 22:16 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 22:11 -Kyo- wrote:On April 29 2020 21:31 FFW_Rude wrote:
you will not be able to offensively Battery Overcharge rush your opponents.
Awww come on EDIT : Did someone test the Baneling nerf with tanks / storms ? I tested earlier. If you roll through a storm your banes will survive with 1hp. You didn't even need to test it. Storm does 10 damage per tick. Ignores armor. Zerg regenerates 1 health immediately. Three ticks - bane survives with 1hp vs 6hp. This is useless because it still is oneshot but pretty much everything. No change. Four ticks - bane dies pre and post patch. No change. It does reduce marine shots by one....
I was thinking, why not give the baneling the light tag? (currently it has no tag besides biological) it makes colossus kill them in 3 shots instead of 4 (2 with +1 attack) and adepts kill them in 2 instead of also 4.
The only terran units this will affect would be ghost and hellion/hellbat wich honestly is a small diference, since nobody makes them to counter banes.
On April 29 2020 21:46 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 21:41 -Kyo- wrote:
You should not be defending a widow mine with cannons. You should not be worried about an armory making them invisible because you should surely have a robo, or even now an oracle, before that is finished. You didn't read what Blizzard wrote did you? "To put indirect economic pressure on Protoss by increasing the number of potential Terran openers and putting strain on their defenses across multiple bases. We believe this change could encourage more thoughtful positioning of Stalkers as well as force earlier Photon Cannons, both of which detract from the power of the Protoss' primary army." Blizzard doesn't understand their game. And that's the problem. I don't build Cannons to defend Widow Mines, which I why I said even if you have on up... so their proposed solution doesn't solve the problem as I mentioned. That's the whole point.
This buff doesn't changes any of that tho, WM change only matter AFTER they shot, they still have the same capacity to do that, only difference is that now you have to spend some resources into killing them (if they didn't save them with medivac after the shot).
Not saying its a good change (I dont like it) but the whole "WM ravage mineral lines" changes nothing with this mine buff.
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Eh, not a terrible idea giving them light tag, but what they really need is a nerf against toss. Banes should do -50% damage against shields.
Blizzard already uses shield specific damage for race balancing. Fine for protoss to benefit from that instead of always getting there short end of the stick.
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I was thinking, why not give the baneling the light tag? (currently it has no tag besides biological) it makes colossus kill them in 3 shots instead of 4 (2 with +1 attack) and adepts kill them in 2 instead of also 4.
The only terran units this will affect would be ghost and hellion/hellbat wich honestly is a small diference, since nobody makes them to counter banes.
I think the hellion and the baneling itself are the big factors here. Otherwise I think blizzard would have implemented them as light in WoL to begin with.
Blue Flame Hellions would two shot 35 HP, light banelings, instead of five shoting them.
And banelings oneshoting each other would throw ZvZ completely under the bus.
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stim needs major nerf, so does hydralisk/lurker/zergling
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Actually, if Blizzard want a patch regarding banelings, it s a good decision.
But it seems hard to rework this unit without changing supply cost.
I m really interesting about the banelings changes against Protoss. Let s see, ..
In TvZ i didn t see a roach since a long time...
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Glad to see the baneling buff gone. That was a contender for the worst change in the game rivaled only by queen range. Broke TvZ for a year just so banes could survive a storm. In fact, considering the stupidly terran favored maps atm I'm not convinced TvZ would be in a good place on fairer maps. Iffy on the tumor nerf. Might make hellion/banshee openings too strong.
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On April 30 2020 00:34 Vision_ wrote:
Actually, if Blizzard want a patch regarding banelings, it s a good decision.
But it seems hard to rework this unit without changing supply cost.
Honestly the root of banelings problems is not its stats or cost efficiency.
The fights banelings crush or win usually had the zerg have a much higher army cost. And even if zerg appears to have destroyed the engagement, you look at ressources lost and its pretty even, even if zerg won a fight.
Problem is they are .5 supply. Which means when the game gets to the level where players start banking money, banelings become completely insane supply wise. You can have 2 banelings per marines on the field, 4 banelings per zealots or stalkers.
You could make 1 baneling require 2 zerglings, similar to archons. You could also make banelings created directly from larvas at 1 supply.
Obviously a change like that would have a huge impact on zerg, and compensations would be required. Maybe hydras could have upgrade merged again. Maybe broodlords could get a speed buff. Maybe infestors could get an utility when they are low on energy. Maybe ultras could have a cool gimmicks that make them sell boring.
It should have been part of a big design patch a while ago, just like offensive warp-ins should have as well.
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Blizzard could help Zerg with a bonus +X armor to roach when they are burrowed in order to help against marines/medivacs. (also a little bit faster regeneration 7hp + X)
Against Terran, burrowed roachs could sustain a bit more, and the Terran could have a less cost efficient scan.
I would be happy to see Zerg micro-ing Roachs.
PS : @Snakestyle, you quote me :"supply cost change".. I talked about efficiency in my before last comment
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On April 29 2020 23:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +I was thinking, why not give the baneling the light tag? (currently it has no tag besides biological) it makes colossus kill them in 3 shots instead of 4 (2 with +1 attack) and adepts kill them in 2 instead of also 4.
The only terran units this will affect would be ghost and hellion/hellbat wich honestly is a small diference, since nobody makes them to counter banes. I think the hellion and the baneling itself are the big factors here. Otherwise I think blizzard would have implemented them as light in WoL to begin with. Blue Flame Hellions would two shot 35 HP, light banelings, instead of five shoting them. And banelings oneshoting each other would throw ZvZ completely under the bus.
Forgot about ZvZ.
What unit interaction is the broken one vs protoss?
Maybe changing the damage from 20+15 vs light to 15+20 vs light will help but it would make marauders incredibly resistant to them.
Honestly splash damade seems like the biggest problem here because while terran also depends on them bio can actually stop them with pure DPS while gateway units are garbage vs banes.
How about removing life but adding 1 base armor? Makes them weaker vs splash but stronger vs pure bio dps.
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On April 30 2020 00:52 Lexender wrote:
How about removing life but adding 1 base armor? Makes them weaker vs splash but stronger vs pure bio dps.
Only the biggest units are concerned with the bonus armor. (in fact, it s only the smallest aren t concerned with bonus armor...)
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On April 30 2020 00:52 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 23:42 Big J wrote:I was thinking, why not give the baneling the light tag? (currently it has no tag besides biological) it makes colossus kill them in 3 shots instead of 4 (2 with +1 attack) and adepts kill them in 2 instead of also 4.
The only terran units this will affect would be ghost and hellion/hellbat wich honestly is a small diference, since nobody makes them to counter banes. I think the hellion and the baneling itself are the big factors here. Otherwise I think blizzard would have implemented them as light in WoL to begin with. Blue Flame Hellions would two shot 35 HP, light banelings, instead of five shoting them. And banelings oneshoting each other would throw ZvZ completely under the bus. Forgot about ZvZ. What unit interaction is the broken one vs protoss? Maybe changing the damage from 20+15 vs light to 15+20 vs light will help but it would make marauders incredibly resistant to them. Honestly splash damade seems like the biggest problem here because while terran also depends on them bio can actually stop them with pure DPS while gateway units are garbage vs banes. How about removing life but adding 1 base armor? Makes them weaker vs splash but stronger vs pure bio dps.
I don't think the baneling is the core problem of PvZ. The baneling is a way to end the game before the endgame for zerg, off of an advantage. Another one is mass ravager which we see just as much of these days. Just like mass roach or mass muta or hydra/lurkers have been before.
You can keep on nerfing all of those tools (or buff PvZ specific tools), because they are not important for TvZ. It is more delicate with banelings though. And eventually the game will be very boring when it is balanced around zerg being miles ahead, but without tools to end the game so that P can catch up and then they deathball into each other.
ZvP has always been a delicate matchup in the macro section from the moment zergs started to 3 base in WoL. Blizzard needs to keep on polishing in that department or return the matchup to the state in which Protoss has 5 different good allin options that turn it into a guessing game with a 50:50 winrate.
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Since when is the balance team this good? So many very good changes here. Zerg queen/creep nerfs so necessary, oracle change is great, HT feedback should definitely help against late game zerg, etc. etc.
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Very positively surprised by these changes. And great to see that Blizzard are still following the game 
I think I pretty much like all of it. Don't know if the shield overcharge will work, but it's great to see that they're looking into making it easier to defend in PvP. Stuff like queen range nerf and baneling health nerf are so welcome, should have been done a long time ago. I'm not sure how much the widow mine change will actually be felt, but it will be a lot nicer for the terran macro to avoid the tech lab upgrade.
But taken together, these changes probably tip the scales too much in favor of terran. I hope the changes will go through anyway and that the game will be rebalanced by other means. Nerfing Battlecruisers would be fine, especially as an opener. Somehow reducing the strength of Terran pull-the-boys all ins would also make the game better.
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Excellent changes in my opinion, as a Zerg player I also feel Queens kind of auto shut down any form of air harass, and personally my favorite era of ZvT and ZvP was when Phoenix openers and Banshee harass was strong, it forced alot of micro intensive counter play that really upped the skill factor of both match ups. The baneling nerf is long overdue, it was simply to survive storms which seems dumb, storms should be good vs. banelings considering it's a tier 1 unit vs a tier 3 unit.
In my opinion, ZvP was far more balanced from a macro perspective when Phoenix openers were strong and not only forced multiple Queens but also forced a few spores, which kept the Zerg economy slightly in check. To me watching a top level Protoss harass and contain the Zerg while the Zerg furiously tried to remake drones while defending was the epitome of great ZvP, so hopefully the Queen changes reverts ZvP to that self opinionated golden era.
However, I'm nervous about coupling it with a significant defensive buff that is innate to the Nexus and seems to be more or less solely designed to fix a crappy mirror match up. I don't think balancing around a mirror is a good idea pretty much ever unless it's like extremely small quality of life changes of some kind. Let the players figure it out, if the match up is volatile, it's volatile, not all mirrors are equal in quality, but they are perfect in win rates so eh, kind of neutral to negative about this one.
A proposal if they want more harassment/defensive utility for Protoss, why not go ahead since we are doing small number changes on Revelation, just do some changes to the way that the Oracle interacts with units in general. Give the Oracles +1 range but reduce the amount of damage they do (i.e. not instantly incinerates workers) so that they can micro around static defense a bit but not be so punishing, creating (with the new Revelation) a very micro intensive and survivable unit.
Currently it kind of swoops in, get's batted away by Queens while scoring a few kills, kind of useless as soon as a spore is up. The increased range will circumvent this, but the decrease in burst will keep it balanced. I don't know, just figured I'd throw that out there, I think little quality of life changes on important units goes a little further then a drastic change for a damn mirror.
All in all, very happy with the patch besides the Nexus ability, the last thing Protoss needs is more abilities to keep track of, they need raw number changes like what they are doing with Revelation, fantastic changes to that.
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On April 30 2020 05:34 Beelzebub1 wrote:
However, I'm nervous about coupling it with a significant defensive buff that is innate to the Nexus and seems to be more or less solely designed to fix a crappy mirror match up. I don't think balancing around a mirror is a good idea pretty much ever unless it's like extremely small quality of life changes of some kind. Let the players figure it out, if the match up is volatile, it's volatile, not all mirrors are equal in quality, but they are perfect in win rates so eh, kind of neutral to negative about this one.
The problem with the PvP mirror is that it is so volatile, the better player doesn't necessarily have a greater chance of winning. That leads to situations where a Zest or a Stats gets eliminated by someone like Hurricane, who then gets murdered horribly in the next round by Innovation or Dark. I believe this is one of the reasons Protoss is usually well-represented in earlier rounds of tournaments, but the best Protoss players rarely make it all the way to the semis or finals. Ironically it also leads to situations where even at times when Protoss does well balance-wise (which is not the case right now), the best Protoss players don't necessarily make it far into tournaments because they get eliminated by one of the many weaker Protoss. Of course, this is a problem with all mirrors (just ask Maru or Innovation), but it is by far the worst for PvP.
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On April 29 2020 22:05 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 21:31 FFW_Rude wrote:
you will not be able to offensively Battery Overcharge rush your opponents.
Awww come on EDIT : Did someone test the Baneling nerf with tanks / storms ? Doesn't change how fast storm kills banes and it doesn't really change how toss units kill them outside of some fringe combinations. It does reduce the number of hits needed from a marine. It's like blizzard didn't read their own notes from before. There is a reason they backed off the +10 health that somehow made it into the game years ago. This is a huge nerf for Terran and useless for protoss.
So if this doesn't change then... It's going to buff What... TvZ Bio and PvZ.... what ? Stalkers fights ?
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I get they want to do something with the baneling for PvZ which is fine but if you watch pro ZvTs it´s already hard for banes to reach the target vs marines....which is the main reason they gave banes 5 more hp. The sad thing is that banes are such essential vs bio - if they buff Z in another area vs bio i am fine with banenerf, otherwise it will break ZvT which is already pending towards T (WM buff and Queen nerf will obv tip it even more in T favor).
Maybe give Hydras something that reduces healing of targeted units would be a great way to especially target bio.
As for microbial shroud - to give Z something that helps vs mass air units which come so late that storm / disruptor / colossus is available...well...wont help Z use the spell even if no upgrade is needed. Let it be an upgrade but buff it in some way it helps vs ground units. Make it "damage reduced by 30%" or something like that to help Z get away from banelings needed.
Other comps just dont kill stuff fast enough and die too fast themselves - this would help stuff like roach hydra, lurkers etc. survive longer without mass banes needed to kill opponent fast. Basically all Z units before BLs are bad in longer lasting fights. Its kill fast or die fast for Z bc of banes needed...
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+2 Banes one shotting probes is stupid, i think that should be nerfed. Also one idea i have for pvp is giving probes some +dmg vs shields. I think adepts shading to main is too unforgiving. It also would give some defender advantage to PvP
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When does this update go live?
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Very good changes for the pro scene. Horrible changes for everyone below I guess.
We may actually see Terran winrate below GM level rise quite a bit, widow mines and BC rushes will become absolutely atrocious to deal with
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EPT
