The difference in time in build order is bigger than excepted... As big as i m wondering if i m missing something.. Of course these timing are approximatively and depends of the relatively packs distances.
**Zerg BO : Hatch - Spawning pool** HoTS Duration at start of the spawnning pool : 2 m 35 s (in reality : 114.5 s) LoTV Duration at start of the spawnning pool : 1 m 10 s Difference = 44.5 s
**Terran BO : Depot - Barrack** HoTS Duration at start of Barracks : 1 m 38 s (in reality : 72.5 s) LoTV Duration at start of the Barracks : 39 s Difference = 33.5 s
Did i made a mistake ? 25 seconds is really huge, i m so surprised that i would be reassured if i have made a mistake (correction 11 or 12 seconds)...
What specific builds are you comparing? I'm not sure what "hatch - spawning pool" means even in LotV, isolated; much less comparing it to a HotS build.
60 seconds in 'Blizzard time' was 40 seconds in real time. Sounds about right. The game timer was set at 'normal' speed originally, so everything had inflation once the game speed was turned up to 'faster', like when you're playing ladder games.
This meant that a production timer that said 60 seconds on its tooltip was in fact a 40 second timer in reality. There would have been a patch at some point, probably during HotS, where all the tooltips were updated to reflect time at 'faster' game speed.
On March 14 2020 22:55 papapanda wrote: What specific builds are you comparing? I'm not sure what "hatch - spawning pool" means even in LotV, isolated; much less comparing it to a HotS build.
In fact i have checked all TvZ BO from Katowice 2020 but i didn t find one Hatch - Pool (This BO isn t played anymore).. All Zergs pro greedy make Hatch - Gas - Pool. This isn t a problem, Gas is made at 1:08 and Pool at 1:13 so if you don t skip the gas, you are starting your pool at 1:09 or 1:10.
It's also worth pointing out that the first few minutes of old build timers were effectively erased from existence when the starting worker count was bumped up from 6 to 12.
On March 15 2020 01:29 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Is this a troll post? How can you not notice that HotS starts with 6 workers and LotV starts with 12 workers?
Also Zerg BO : Hatch - Spawning pool and Terran BO : Depot - Barrack, are not Build Orders, where are the supply counts?
If you wrote an actual BO you probably would had figured out your problem...
Your comment is ridiculous ...
This study compares the time difference concerning Barrack, Spawnning Pool, Gateway building of each race before and after LoTV (in particulary in the case of an "Hatchery First" / This is the difference of the time buildings difference regarding each race).
If a balanced translation (in the sequence of buildings/units) has been added in lotv economy, the difference should be close to 0.
To be clear, there are two changes in lotv which could have impacted this timer :
1) The speed of minerals income between 6 and 12 drones 2) The frequency of each Hatchery to create naturally a larva (1 Larva every 15 seconds in HoTS / 1 Larva every 11 seconds in LoTV)
I m asking you to write to Blizzard cause the viewers is decreasing a lot 95/140 = 68% less viewers in one and a half year
On March 15 2020 01:29 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Is this a troll post? How can you not notice that HotS starts with 6 workers and LotV starts with 12 workers?
Also Zerg BO : Hatch - Spawning pool and Terran BO : Depot - Barrack, are not Build Orders, where are the supply counts?
If you wrote an actual BO you probably would had figured out your problem...
Your comment is ridiculous ...
The issue is people don't read. And if they don't read they can't comprehend and then we get comments like his.
Out of curiosity, what is the difference in Gateway timings?
On March 15 2020 01:29 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Is this a troll post? How can you not notice that HotS starts with 6 workers and LotV starts with 12 workers?
Also Zerg BO : Hatch - Spawning pool and Terran BO : Depot - Barrack, are not Build Orders, where are the supply counts?
If you wrote an actual BO you probably would had figured out your problem...
Your comment is ridiculous ...
This study compares the time difference concerning Barrack, Spawnning Pool, Gateway building of each race before and after LoTV (in particulary in the case of an "Hatchery First" / This is the difference of the time buildings difference regarding each race).
If a balanced translation (in the sequence of buildings/units) has been added in lotv economy, the difference should be close to 0.
To be clear, there are two changes in lotv which could have impacted this timer :
1) The speed of minerals income between 6 and 12 drones 2) The frequency of each Hatchery to create naturally a larva (1 Larva every 15 seconds in HoTS / 1 Larva every 11 seconds in LoTV)
I m asking you to write to Blizzard cause the viewers is decreasing a lot 95/140 = 68% less viewers in one and a half year
I am still confused as to this point, what is the issue here?
Can you link the decline in viewership to what you’re talking about in the post?
I am still confused as to this point, what is the issue here?
Can you link the decline in viewership to what you’re talking about in the post?
Why should be in relation with my study ?
Isn t enought to see the decline of sc2 scene ?
Isn t enought to copy/paste games from 2018 to 2019 ?
LoTV has brought best as worth contents... LoTV have amazing units : ravager, liberator, tempest.. Map overall qualiity are great.. You can also notice TvZ always has been the most popular match upand seems to decline recently...
Why ? I don t know ? Do you see any relation between Love and Terran garbage ?
Like Dangermousecatdog compare my post to a troll while he hasn t read and understand the study, i wanna just point to sc2 hype loss cause it still remains the best multiplayer 3D software.
On March 15 2020 03:16 BronzeKnee wrote:
The issue is people don't read. And if they don't read they can't comprehend and then we get comments like his.
Out of curiosity, what is the difference in Gateway timings?
I have also checked and wrote it in last posts... It s the same, 12 second ahead for Zerg.
I know my english is bad, by the way this doesn t matter. I only wish a reaction from community
On March 15 2020 05:20 InfCereal wrote: You start with 6 more workers in LotV than hots. That's why you get everything sooner.
That s exactly the kind of comments which is absurd... As Dangermousecatdog comment, you aren t able to understand or read a thread... it proves Zerg is ahead by 12 seconds in hatchery first BO against Terran or Protoss compared to Hatch first in HoTS...
On March 15 2020 05:20 InfCereal wrote: You start with 6 more workers in LotV than hots. That's why you get everything sooner.
That s exactly the kind of comments which is absurd... As Dangermousecatdog comment, you aren t able to understand that it proves Zerg is ahead by 12 seconds in hatchery first BO against Terran or Protoss compared to Hatch first in HoTS...
That s good sense...
Are they ahead though? Isn’t their larva count cut to compensate?
On March 15 2020 05:20 InfCereal wrote: You start with 6 more workers in LotV than hots. That's why you get everything sooner.
That s exactly the kind of comments which is absurd... As Dangermousecatdog comment, you aren t able to understand that it proves Zerg is ahead by 12 seconds in hatchery first BO against Terran or Protoss compared to Hatch first in HoTS...
That s good sense...
Are they ahead though? Isn’t their larva count cut to compensate?
What is absolutely necessary to understand is the fact a Build Order isn t played anymore cause they get these few seconds. In other terms, in pârticulary every timing concerning gas has switched from 12 seconds....
Just check, Hatch - Pool was a standard on hots... It doesn t exist anymore, only : Hatch - Gas - Pool..
And it s just a tiny example, consequences on B3 dissuasion is harder etc...
And so why blizzard decided to reduce duration Stimpack upgrade !!!!
- Stimpack upgrade research duration reduced from 121 to 100 seconds. You got it ??
You are comparing apple and oranges. You are missing half the story. Sure the pool might be around 10 seconds ahead in relation go barracks/gateway compared to hots( or is it what you are saying? a bit hard to understand).
But you also have to take in consideration reapers are stronger now a bit, and adepts exist. Before lotv, as zerg, u could cut lings for a long time because adept didnt exist, there was no 1/2 adept poke. Already this more than makes up for *10seconds* pool timing difference.
As for ZvT, terran has a lot more potent early game harass, such as liberator and BCs, Forcing more queens than ever in hots.
In fact, the pool timing is not relevant at all, and if you truly wanted to compare tech timings, you should have compared lair timing vs tech of other race, compared to hots. Its not like zerg ever attacks with slow lings.
You might be surprised that zerg gets his tech units later than other races comparatively to hots.
On March 15 2020 05:20 InfCereal wrote: You start with 6 more workers in LotV than hots. That's why you get everything sooner.
That s exactly the kind of comments which is absurd... As Dangermousecatdog comment, you aren t able to understand that it proves Zerg is ahead by 12 seconds in hatchery first BO against Terran or Protoss compared to Hatch first in HoTS...
That s good sense...
Are they ahead though? Isn’t their larva count cut to compensate?
What is absolutely necessary to understand is the fact a Build Order isn t played anymore cause they get these few seconds. In other terms, in pârticulary every timing concerning gas has switched from 12 seconds....
Just check, Hatch - Pool was a standard on hots... It doesn t exist anymore, only : Hatch - Gas - Pool..
And it s just a tiny example, consequences on B3 dissuasion is harder etc...
And so why blizzard decided to reduce duration Stimpack upgrade !!!!
- Stimpack upgrade research duration reduced from 121 to 100 seconds. You got it ??
I'm sorry to be a little rude here but.. what the fuck are you talking about? If the build order isn't played in LotV, then you're comparing literally different builds and then saying it's balance. Comparing hatch pool in hots to hatch gas pool in LotV is literally pointless because they're totally different builds that function completely differently, and then you just throw in the stimpack change without actually explaining why it's relevant? I certainly can't see how it's relevant. Honestly, this thread is titled "the beginning of an answer", but I came away from this with way more questions than I had coming in.
On March 15 2020 15:02 fastr wrote: This post is actually hilarious, OP please post some more gibberish, I'm sure it will all start making sense real soon!
Hilarous ?
All players claim Terran is broken, Special said race need radical changes, Serral said he won if he doesn t take risks ...
Pro Koreans admit too..
I m honestly advocate for Terran survival..
On March 15 2020 06:22 Snakestyle11 wrote: ... But you also have to take in consideration reapers are stronger now a bit, and adepts exist. Before lotv, as zerg, u could cut lings for a long time because adept didnt exist, there was no 1/2 adept poke. Already this more than makes up for *10seconds* pool timing difference.
As for ZvT, terran has a lot more potent early game harass, such as liberator and BCs, Forcing more queens than ever in hots.
....
Yes this is right, and i agree that great decisions have been made after LoTV. And There are mostly concerning the new stuff Blizzard "gave" us to compensate the retard. As a viewer and an old beta tester, I will lie saying I dislike BC. Also, Liberator is well design for terran play style, In fact i hate as much i like LoTV.
Regarding adepts idk, Protoss is the only race i didn t played since BW.
Well now, you can discuss for ever but i prefer to see some Zerg all-ins on two bases (HoTS) than Every games a free and legit expansion move (made up in decision).... And by the way, always a late game play...
Following the idea, you can look ahead to evaluate the percentage of games done on two bases before LoTV.. You will probably notice the percentage is less than two bases all-ins used in LoTV.
As i m a Zerg player in WoL and HoTS, i know Zerg is the race which is depending the less of BO (reactive race), So all these none used BO on two bases means a significant loss of quality in the Zerg gameplay.
On March 15 2020 05:20 InfCereal wrote: You start with 6 more workers in LotV than hots. That's why you get everything sooner.
That s exactly the kind of comments which is absurd... As Dangermousecatdog comment, you aren t able to understand or read a thread... it proves Zerg is ahead by 12 seconds in hatchery first BO against Terran or Protoss compared to Hatch first in HoTS...
Even if the start up timing of certain buildings/build orders is different in LoTV, that doesn't justify a chief complaint. Blizzard has been balancing around that change since it's release. It's valid for you to be upset with the balance choices they have picked, but the timings itself is just the nature of the game in its current expansion.
I would like to hear more about balance solutions you would propose that don't change core aspects of LoTV. Building timings won't change and I truly believe aren't what are responsible from some of the holes that exist in the mid to late game.
On March 16 2020 00:07 BisuDagger wrote: To focus on the thread content:
Even if the start up timing of certain buildings/build orders is different in LoTV, that doesn't justify a chief complaint. Blizzard has been balancing around that change since it's release. It's valid for you to be upset with the balance choices they have picked, but the timings itself is just the nature of the game in its current expansion.
I would like to hear more about balance solutions you would propose that don't change core aspects of LoTV. Building timings won't change and I truly believe aren't what are responsible from some of the holes that exist in the mid to late game.
I agree. Tbh I think this entire discussion about worker start numbers and such is completely pointless. There's so many things we could do to help balance without fundamentally changing the entire pace of the game, or in my opinion, changing anything in the game at all. I still hold the opinion that between maps and meta development, after this patch we've reached a state where the game can be balanced with minimal dev interference.
I would like to hear more about balance solutions you would propose that don't change core aspects of LoTV. Building timings won't change and I truly believe aren't what are responsible from some of the holes that exist in the mid to late game.
holes ?
I would say the opposite.. The game is so full of macro than you are constantly at home, polishing BO, focus on macro...
I play better on lotv and i never have to adapt my game style... I play better so much than i have to lose more so, and the macro still goes on..
On March 14 2020 22:58 dUTtrOACh wrote: 60 seconds in 'Blizzard time' was 40 seconds in real time. Sounds about right. The game timer was set at 'normal' speed originally, so everything had inflation once the game speed was turned up to 'faster', like when you're playing ladder games.
This meant that a production timer that said 60 seconds on its tooltip was in fact a 40 second timer in reality. There would have been a patch at some point, probably during HotS, where all the tooltips were updated to reflect time at 'faster' game speed.
Not quite 1.5x difference (It's about 1.375x, but i forgot the exact exact number)
The game tick rate is around 22hz while "normal" speed was exactly 16.
EPT
Come on Blizzard, ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/H10AFZe.png)
