TLDR: The Raven limits options in Starcraft 2 by hard shutting down units in TvP, TvT and being ultimately far too oppressive in TvT in small numbers, and unseen in TvZ. This is a bad unit design for one of the main spellcasters in the Terran army. This isn't meant to be balance whine I just believe the unit is unhealthy for the game in its current state.
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I'd like to ask the question and build a discussion around the raven and its design in the game. I ask that you please look at this from a design perspective only. I say this mostly cause I'd like to talk about how healthy the current design of the raven is in the game. As most of us know the raven is one of the 2 main spellcasters of the Terran race alongside the ghost. It is a tier 2 unit often seen in TvP and TvT and sometimes TvZ. I'd like to now talk about how I view the Raven in each of the three matchups:
TvT: It is a core unit that is almost always made (Usually ranging from 1 to 3 in the early game and more in the supreme late game) In TvT the raven works both defensively and offensively and can usually hard shutdown styles that would skip it in favor of another starport unit. The main appeal for the raven in this matchup is that you can disable up to 2 mechanical units (usually siege tanks or other ravens) During a fight. However, the raven also has a ton of burst damage in the form of AutoTurrets which early game can be very devasting. Finally, it has a strong utility ability in the form of the anti-armor missile. This ability renders every unit hit by it extremely vulnerable to high attack speed units such as marines and vikings. The unit is bearable to control with the bio army generally because you'll never want ghosts in TvT so you'd at best (If you have 1 big army hotkey) only need to press tab once
TvP: It is a very strong unit and usually the key unit in the early game 1-1 timings when built. It can hard shutdown colossus, immortals and disruptors with interference matrix and zone out zealots or stalkers with auto-turrets. The unit also is great for killing observers when protoss would like to play aggressive with their blink and shuts down DT play. Occasionally you'll see anti-armor missile thrown out onto the toss army which leaves every unit hit extremely vulnerable as the army pushing them is almost always pure bio but this is usually the least used option due to the other 2 abilities offering more. The Ravens also just really nice for killing observers out on the map and shutting down warp prisms before they can warp in. It's very strong but easy to lose and a little hard to control with your bio (Much harder if ghosts are added in)
TvZ: This unit is very rarely seen in this matchup. In the late-game, if you have battlecruisers being able to anti-armor the zerg army and disable units such as vipers or infestors can be very rewarding but it is often rare that we get games like that. Early on however its usage is almost exclusively these days used for just creep clearing or auto turret harass which is outshined by the liberator. Quite frankly I find the raven to be quite useless in this matchup generally because you'd rather have a different unit. Often there is the argument made that if you go raven you don't have to scan to clear creep but going for a raven usually slows down your first tank and push for extra $. Whilst nice often isn't actually worth it because you're defensively more vulnerable and your timing is slower (Timings in this matchup are very important)
Back to the original question: Does the raven limit the number of options in the game or does it restrict them? The raven restricts the number of options I believe in TvT that the raven is a must-have unit and hinders the incentive to go for other starport units early game and literally acts as a unit that exists to counter itself. In TvP the Raven feels far too oppressive vs colossus based styles early game and does not see much use after the early timing or is far too difficult to use. TvZ there is almost no incentive to go for the raven just because the alternative options are better.
My suggestions: So I've thought about this for a while and I've got a few suggestions I think could work or should at least be considered
Raven Suggestion #1: Replace Interference Matrix back with PDD I think that the Interference matrix is just such an unfun ability to play vs and I think PDD offered more defensively vs units such as Tempests, Corruptors, Vikings or Liberators. It would be similar to the raven back in 2017 only instead of seeker missile it has anti-armor. This version would probably be the fairest version of the 3 suggestions
Raven Suggestion #2: Revert the raven back to the 2017 edition only with auto-turrets remaining at 2 range and keeping the new speed buff. Back in 2017 the raven was actually really good IMO and saw decent play all across each of the 3 matchups but was exceptionally good in TvZ due to auto turret harass. Part of that was due to maps having large amounts of dead airspace but as well auto turret had a long cast range. I think this would probably be the most effective form of the raven of the 3 suggestions.
Raven Suggestion #3: Replace Auto Turret with PDD lower raven cost to 100/150. The raven would no longer have any offensive capability and act purely as a support unit. I think lowering its gas cost is fine in this case but admittedly I think this would be the least effective of the 3 suggestions.
Why PDD over the interference matrix?: PDD acts as a deflection shield against projectiles whereas the Interference matrix straight up removes a unit from doing anything for 11 seconds. PDD's usage is usually defensive however it does have some niche offensive use. In TvT it would lower incentive to go for raven every game and act as a more healthy way of controlling the air as opposed to just massing or disabling units. In TvZ this would be a very effective tool for Vikings, Libs and BC's to deal with corruptors, spores, and hydras adding late-game incentive to go for the unit as opposed to only making 1-2 for anti-armor. And in TvP it would be far less oppressive to play against and give Terrans an actual answer to dealing with units like the tempest in the extreme late-game when they need their libs to stay up but don't have an immediate answer.
Why the old 2017 raven that has seeker missile?: Back in 2017, the raven saw a lot of healthy play meta wise with some strong points only being in maps having too much dead airspace and auto-turrets range being too great. With both of those things being gone, I think the 2017 raven would perform better and be more fun than today's raven + with seeker missile terran has a viable form of AOE damage that affects more than shields/energy. And in the expansion legacy of the void, the main design goal was to include more late-game action. I see seeker missile as a large part of Terrans late game.
Conclusion: Thank you for reading this far, given my analysis of the raven and my suggestions what do you think about it? Do you think my suggestions are good, bad? Do you have any of your own? And most importantly do you think the current design of the raven negatively impacts the game? Please share your thoughts below
Edit: I think in general this video by beastyQT is really good and I think some of the points can positively be applied to this thread
The 2018 instant seekers were really badly designed, but the old seeker from hots to 2017 was extremely balanced as it gave 4 seconds for the opponent to reactively micro. This is the kind of interaction the devs should promote instead of this mass thor/BC + a move BS.
Great ideas! This is a very positive approach to discussing balance. I also think emphasizing the role of being a support unit rather than an offensive unit would add a fresh take on the unit by adding PDD
I quite like interference matrix personally, especially with the added cost+time, it put a lot of emphasis on the decision to cast the spell, which unit you chose to disable, when you decide to pull the trigger. You also need to decide how you will decide to spend your energy in the fight, with all three spell offering various advantage. Having pdd back revive the threat of those mass raven/air style, with the BC being better than in 2017 I wonder if mass air turtle style wouldn't become to powerful. And I can't really imagine something worst for SC2. It also make it possible to anchor an early game defense in tvt and sometime even in tvp I dunno if reverting back to pdd would bring back more proxy play. (I honestly don't know)
Personally (and has a shit tier terran) I really feel like the raven is pretty much in the best place it has ever been, it's a very useful and powerful spell caster to have and you can develop a big array of build and timing around it, but it's also a unit that can't really be massed, at least at the professional level. I fact I'd say it's probably one of the best designed spell caster in the game right now, next to the LOTV sentry.
Not gonna lie for years I was an advocate of just deleting the raven from the game altogether (along with the infestor but that's another topic) since it had a tendency of outright breaking the game, or being absolutely useless, but now I quite like what they did with it.
Edit: With that said part of it is design preference, I don't think spell caster should ever be a major part of your army, which was my problem with the old raven and also with the infestor in general and with High Templar or the old mass sentry pvz style.
I don't understand why so many people have issues with interference matrix when it's a less powerful version of Lockdown which exists in Brood War and is totally fine.
I guess maybe if there WAS a problem with the spell you could solve it by just making it require research. I don't think that's neccessary though.
On March 04 2020 04:30 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't understand why so many people have issues with interference matrix when it's a less powerful version of Lockdown which exists in Brood War and is totally fine.
I guess maybe if there WAS a problem with the spell you could solve it by just making it require research. I don't think that's neccessary though.
I think you got the wrong idea of my post the issue is that conceptually speaking anti-armor missile is not a good ability to play against nor is it that fun to use (In my personal experience) the unit is currently too powerful for its early on role in contrast to other starport units I think by changing the way the raven works you could increase the likelihood for people to go into other units such as banshees, medivacs or liberators. But instead, if you do go banshee raven hard counters that same with medivacs. Liberators if proxied can find damage but get shut down by other things such as scouting.
On March 04 2020 04:30 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't understand why so many people have issues with interference matrix when it's a less powerful version of Lockdown which exists in Brood War and is totally fine.
I guess maybe if there WAS a problem with the spell you could solve it by just making it require research. I don't think that's neccessary though.
I think you got the wrong idea of my post the issue is that conceptually speaking anti-armor missile is not a good ability to play against nor is it that fun to use (In my personal experience) the unit is currently too powerful for its early on role in contrast to other starport units I think by changing the way the raven works you could increase the likelihood for people to go into other units such as banshees, medivacs or liberators. But instead, if you do go banshee raven hard counters that same with medivacs. Liberators if proxied can find damage but get shut down by other things such as scouting.
If your argument is that spell casters are too effective in SC2, then I agree. But I'll say that about ALL Spellcasters not just the Raven.
I don't think the Raven is any more of a problem than the Viper, High Templar, or Ghost is. I do think the Banshee is too weak right now, but that has more to do with the Queen being OP than a problem with the unit itself.
On March 04 2020 04:23 Nakajin wrote: I quite like interference matrix personally, especially with the added cost+time, it put a lot of emphasis on the decision to cast the spell, which unit you chose to disable, when you decide to pull the trigger. You also need to decide how you will decide to spend your energy in the fight, with all three spell offering various advantage. Having pdd back revive the threat of those mass raven/air style, with the BC being better than in 2017 I wonder if mass air turtle style wouldn't become to powerful. And I can't really imagine something worst for SC2. It also make it possible to anchor an early game defense in tvt and sometime even in tvp I dunno if reverting back to pdd would bring back more proxy play. (I honestly don't know)
Personally (and has a shit tier terran) I really feel like the raven is pretty much in the best place it has ever been, it's a very useful and powerful spell caster to have and you can develop a big array of build and timing around it, but it's also a unit that can't really be massed, at least at the professional level. I fact I'd say it's probably one of the best designed spell caster in the game right now, next to the LOTV sentry.
Not gonna lie for years I was an advocate of just deleting the raven from the game altogether (along with the infestor but that's another topic) since it had a tendency of outright breaking the game, or being absolutely useless, but now I quite like what they did with it.
Edit: With that said part of it is design preference, I don't think spell caster should ever be a major part of your army, which was my problem with the old raven and also with the infestor in general and with High Templar or the old mass sentry pvz style.
Having pdd back revive the threat of those mass raven/air style, with the BC being better than in 2017 I wonder if mass air turtle style wouldn't become to powerful. And I can't really imagine something worst for SC2.
There are two games I can find you between soO and Gumiho back in 2017 (GSL Season 2 Finals 2017 Game 1, Blizzcon 2017 Quarter Finals game 5) Where gumiho does manage to get up to ravens twice and they both won a game each. I think PDD alone is not enough to make skymech too powerful but you do bring up a good argument that the BC is stronger now however I think without both seeker and PDD its not too op.
Also, the raven losing interference matrix would not change how strong cheese is or incentivize it simply because you don't proxy a raven and if you're being proxied you don't make a raven to defend it. Usually a viking or banshee is more preferable.
Not gonna lie for years I was an advocate of just deleting the raven from the game altogether (along with the infestor but that's another topic) since it had a tendency of outright breaking the game, or being absolutely useless, but now I quite like what they did with it.
Edit: With that said part of it is design preference, I don't think spell caster should ever be a major part of your army, which was my problem with the old raven and also with the infestor in general and with High Templar or the old mass sentry pvz style.
I think deleting spellcasters like the old raven, high templar and infestor would be a bad idea in SC2. Spellcasters while very niche do serve a very good purpose in creating efficient ways to clear armies with time as a resource and are key aspects to the late-game. Arguably the high templar is a mid to late-game unit the infestor and raven are both late-game units and in an expansion focussed around rushing tier 3 or the late game I think all 3 races having viable energy/time removal options is fair. Granted the raven does not need seeker when we have the ghost, liberator and bc it should still serve a function outside of making 1-2 early game and then neglecting it. The reason the raven was able to break the game in the past was usually due to the fact that turtle terran was very hard to break and ravens were very strong disengage options as an army engaging would not only eat shots from things like libs/tanks/p.f's but they'd also have to run away or eat a seeker. But there are situations in which the other races can put each other into similar positions I find that just terran lacks that right now in the form of an offensive splash caster but if we have just PDD or another possible spell that adds utility (Without removing a unit from existence for 9 or 11 seconds) that would work too.
On March 04 2020 04:30 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't understand why so many people have issues with interference matrix when it's a less powerful version of Lockdown which exists in Brood War and is totally fine.
I guess maybe if there WAS a problem with the spell you could solve it by just making it require research. I don't think that's neccessary though.
i think the context of the problems that people have is that the raven is a unit you can easily build because it is so strong at a certain point. it makes 600+ resources in units a non factor and so it shuts down early tank pressure that would have been possible before, forcing you to make your own just to even it out.
that's all to say that no matter what you do, the raven is build between 3:30 and 4:00 even for the threat of losing to your opponent's raven. because it's strong and the counterplay is usually a narrow corridor. going off what OP is saying (and he states it very well in his TvT paragraph), because it limits options, you have games that converge into raven + viking primarily.
i don't think you can compare it to ghost lockdown in BW because you would practically never build it to try and lockdown tanks (or opposing vikings) in early game timings, nor is it a flying unit that needs other flying units to deal with it.
On March 04 2020 04:30 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't understand why so many people have issues with interference matrix when it's a less powerful version of Lockdown which exists in Brood War and is totally fine.
I guess maybe if there WAS a problem with the spell you could solve it by just making it require research. I don't think that's neccessary though.
I think you got the wrong idea of my post the issue is that conceptually speaking anti-armor missile is not a good ability to play against nor is it that fun to use (In my personal experience) the unit is currently too powerful for its early on role in contrast to other starport units I think by changing the way the raven works you could increase the likelihood for people to go into other units such as banshees, medivacs or liberators. But instead, if you do go banshee raven hard counters that same with medivacs. Liberators if proxied can find damage but get shut down by other things such as scouting.
If your argument is that spell casters are too effective in SC2, then I agree. But I'll say that about ALL Spellcasters not just the Raven.
I don't think the Raven is any more of a problem than the Viper, High Templar, or Ghost is. I do think the Banshee is too weak right now, but that has more to do with the Queen being OP than a problem with the unit itself.
No spellcasters are fine, the infestor was strong but that has been solved I think microbial shrouds useless unfortunately but it is what it is. My argument is more so that the raven feels too oppressive in certain matchups and in TvT forces you to make them. I'll give an example in almost any TvT you find you'll 8/10 times see the first starport unit is a raven and that number goes anywhere from 1-3 with the average being 2. The 1/10 other choices are a medivac or a liberator either from a fast starport or a proxied starport. But the followup after those units usually then also ends up being ravens. Units such as the banshee in TvZ whilst not that great in comparison to a lib and bc these days is fine in the role its in for TvZ. TvT however you won't see people opt for a banshee just because it relies on your opponent to make a mistake more so than it does your own skill to find damage. 1 Raven and a Cyclone can easily beat banshees and then you're behind by not having a banshee yourself. The raven in TvT is the better choice for defensive and aggressive play because it holds stuff like banshees, medivacs and libs and it disables enemy tanks in key positions. As for TvT if you do a tank push with ravens and your opponent went colossi they usually are in a really shit spot as they cannot really fight without the colossus. In TvZ there is no incentive for building the raven other than clearing creep and the alternative builds such as hellion lib or hellion bc are just stronger builds
I love the Raven and how it fits into the current balance/meta, I rarely use it myself because I am shit tier but I believe it fits really good into the game at the moment.
I remember listening to Special talk about the Raven (at HSC maybe while casting), he said he really enjoyed it as it was then (50 mana cost for interference matric but it lasted shorter time) if I remember correctly he said it encouraged proactive play and made terran able to do aggressive moves on the map that werent possible before.
I remember this because it really made sense to me, in TvT if your opponent has put up a siege line and has some marines there for defense you cant attack. It doesn't matter if you have more units (unless it is like massively more), therefore TvT was more static and all about setting up a defensive third or a contain before the opponent because ones it was up its over. This also made it even more about vikings because if we have static tank line against static tank line you need air control. With the raven you can sacrifice the raven, matrix to tanks and go with heavy bio. Raven unlocks plasystyles in TvT that weren't possible before when it was either go tanks and static or doomdrop (which isn't fun either).
The change to increase the cost of the matrix is a nerf to it in TvT because there if you matrix and go the tank usually died before it ended even before the time was increased.
TvP however we have different situation, the change was a buff (in my opinion) to raven vs P because fights against in TvP last longer and protoss has an easier time to move the colossus away when it is matrixed compared to moving sieged tanks away (lol). But even in TvP I think it unlocks playstyles instead of limiting it, before the raven matrix terran couldn't push a competent protoss player with bio if the protoss when colossi, it was very safe in a straight up fight. Now terran has more options but protoss still has the same options open too, maybe protoss needs to scout more properly or counterattack so that he is not taken by surprise by a big terran army diving his third and matrixing his colossus.
If being able to disable a unit is a problem how about phoenix, they unlock great harassment options are cheaper and can disable units just like the raven (well not colossus but most other ones). Raven is really fine in my opinion, while you state they have all these great abilities if they go and harass their energy is used up and they cant matrix, its a very expensive unit 100/200 and if it goes into a fight locks down two units for a short time and then dies that doesn't sound too strong. Like every energy unit if it stays alive it gets value overtime obviously.
If we are talking energy units that are almost always made and are too versatile and powerful I'd say templar and queen are picks to look at before the raven. I don't think there is an issue with any of these units just saying...
Not a Terran player, as someone said earlier Ravens have historically been an awkward unit as they’re either too strong and abused, or too niche and barely used.
At present they feel close to being the perfect spellcaster (well mine anyway), where a few augment your army but you can’t mass em up
They do feel too strong/omnipresent in TvT though and have made that matchup worse in their current form.
I liked the 2017 Raven, I think with the speed buff it would be broken tho. Raven should have the same speed as Viking for ease of use IMO. I think Raven should have 4 spells like the Viper, just gate the Seeker missile behind an upgrade and it's pretty cool. If too many players go turtle style, then remove the energy upgrade, Energy upg's in SC2 only rly help in promoting mass spellcaster usage, they don't rly do anything interesting except for Khaydarin Amulet, Khaydarin actually had an effect on playstyle. My wish: Raven same speed as Viking. 1: Auto Turret: I think Auto Turret should be like the BW perdition turret so it unburrows and then goes on a short timer. So you would place it like Stasis Ward and when it activates it goes on timer like how it does currently. It should block pathing the way it currently does and have way longer cast range. That way you can use this spell to block Ultras and shit, but it's power in fight and mineral lines would be way less because it has an activation time, so the enemy can just run away and it times out. 2: PDD, it should be a pretty mild version and it should work more positionally than it should work in straight up battles, tho using it vs missile turrets to get dropships through would be cool if it could work. 3: I would still let it have Disabling Matrix, I think it's pretty cool, though because there's 4 abilities now it would feel more taxing to use, also with nerfed movespeed on Raven it would work less well in TvT. 4: Seeker missile gated behind upg. EXPLOSIONS ARE COOL. Also Terran should have a cool late game and it's way cooler than mass Viking TvT's.
Edit: You could make Raven Armoured so that it gets shot down by Vikings harder in TvT, if it's rly that much of a problem. It would be less hard countered by Phoenix, but also die more to Stalkers, so not sure if that's positive in TvP, but ye.. This I'm unsure about.
I quite liked the WOL raven, long duration PDD / Turrets / Missle. That specific version of PDD turned some games into absolute trash, but I did like the conceptual idea of leaving Turrets and a PDD at your expansions to defensively support a planetary fortress. I think having long-duration turrets could help Terran with the problem of defending late game run by's everywhere. Problem is these things sound good in theory but ultimately players find the most abusive strategy for anything and run it into the ground (which is fine, its a competitive game and this must happen)
On March 04 2020 10:21 LHK wrote: I quite liked the WOL raven, long duration PDD / Turrets / Missle. That specific version of PDD turned some games into absolute trash, but I did like the conceptual idea of leaving Turrets and a PDD at your expansions to defensively support a planetary fortress. I think having long-duration turrets could help Terran with the problem of defending late game run by's everywhere. Problem is these things sound good in theory but ultimately players find the most abusive strategy for anything and run it into the ground (which is fine, its a competitive game and this must happen)
Personally I've always liked watching the extreme lategame of viking raven vs viking raven in TvT. If you go back and watch games like Flash vs INnoVation on Deadwing SPL, Riddle vs Avilo at WCS , Ty vs Maru at GSL Finals all of these were games with different versions of the raven each of those games whilst long were dynamic and had an intense build up. They weren't just games where one person rushed out the army. It was a tech choice to go into for late game efficiency. In a lot of those games the fun part of them was watching that more didn't always mean more and sometimes the underdog if they played a very intelligent technical game was able to come back. Granted that is strictly TvT and in TvZ with the AAM that did seeker damage that was much harder for Zergs to beat just due to how strong turtle terran is at high level. I think by giving players the 4 second reaction time it is still strong but you can micro against it. However I do think leaving energy based turrets as defense is very bad for the game, PDD however with your own unit investment seems better cause then you still invested in actual unit defense to be there.
I have always wanted a cheaper but weaker raven. I think that giving Terran access to a bit cheaper detection unit that offer some utility would have been a better design then the unit we have. Nerf its spells a bit if but make it cheaper and hence more accessible as a detection option.
Two years ago I made this thread about the raven. At the time, I pleaded for the reintroduction of the auto-turret, buffing the repair drone instead of removing it, removing the interference matrix and reworking the anti-armor spell.
My views have evolved a bit since then. The auto-turret is thankfully back in a more balanced form. I don't think the repair drone was an elegantly designed unit, but I think the current raven still lacks one defensive spell instead of three offensive ones. What hasn't changed is I still hate interference matrix and it seems I was right predicting that anti-armor missile is mostly useless except in TvT.
So while I completely share your view regarding interference matrix, I don't think replacing it with the old PDD would be good for the game, nor reinstalling the old seeker missile. The problem with those two spells were that they were both too strong in their respective roles. PDD promoted turtling and stalemate gameplay. Seeker missile also promoted turtling (as a way to reach critical mass of ravens) and game-ending burst damage with little to no counter play (like what the disruptor has turned into in PvT). Those are bad for the games.
Here is my idea of the 2020 Raven™:
- Removed interference matrix and anti-armor missile abilities.
- Added interference missile and plasma shield drone.
- Interference missile: Deploys a Missile which activates after 2 seconds and pursues the target units, silences all affected units rendering them unable to use abilities for 9 seconds. Targets mechanical and psionic units.
- Plasma shield drone: The raven drops a plasma shield drone at the target location. The drone deploys a plasma shield bubble giving +3 armor to all units inside the bubble for 15 seconds.
Now here's why I suggest those two new abilities.
Interference missile: This ability effectively combines and replace both interference matrix and anti-armor missile into a single offensive ability. Unlike the interference matrix, affected units can still attack but can no longer use abilities. This would make the raven stronger in PvT and useful against both HTs and disruptors (their damage is ability-based) but colossus and immortals wouldn't be affected by it. In TvZ, I believe this could provide very interesting late game interaction between spell casters, with ravens able to disable infestors or vipers, or maybe even swarmhosts. In TvT, it would be a direct nerf to ravens, which could no longer easily break siege tank lines by disabling them. On the other hand, one raven could disable many enemy ravens or BCs, potentially discouraging massing them in the late game.
Plasma shield drone: This is basically a toned-down version of the PDD that would function as a static protoss guardian shield. Instead of negating a 100% of damage over a short period of time, this would allow to negate a sizable amount of damage when used defensively, but would be ineffective against an overwhelming army force. The ability could also be used offensively but with the added risk of getting your ravens exposed while setting the drones up.
I'd love to hear people's thoughts. I think my proposal would fix a lot of problems with the current raven but I'm sure I've missed some unexpected consequences.
On March 04 2020 16:39 fastr wrote: Two years ago I made this thread about the raven. At the time, I pleaded for the reintroduction of the auto-turret, buffing the repair drone instead of removing it, removing the interference matrix and reworking the anti-armor spell.
My views have evolved a bit since then. The auto-turret is thankfully back in a more balanced form. I don't think the repair drone was an elegantly designed unit, but I think the current raven still lacks one defensive spell instead of three offensive ones. What hasn't changed is I still hate interference matrix and it seems I was right predicting that anti-armor missile is mostly useless except in TvT.
So while I completely share your view regarding interference matrix, I don't think replacing it with the old PDD would be good for the game, nor reinstalling the old seeker missile. The problem with those two spells were that they were both too strong in their respective roles. PDD promoted turtling and stalemate gameplay. Seeker missile also promoted turtling (as a way to reach critical mass of ravens) and game-ending burst damage with little to no counter play (like what the disruptor has turned into in PvT). Those are bad for the games.
Here is my idea of the 2020 Raven™:
- Removed interference matrix and anti-armor missile abilities.
- Added interference missile and plasma shield drone.
- Interference missile: Deploys a Missile which activates after 2 seconds and pursues the target units, silences all affected units rendering them unable to use abilities for 9 seconds. Targets mechanical and psionic units.
- Plasma shield drone: The raven drops a plasma shield drone at the target location. The drone deploys a plasma shield bubble giving +3 armor to all units inside the bubble for 15 seconds.
Now here's why I suggest those two new abilities.
Interference missile: This ability effectively combines and replace both interference matrix and anti-armor missile into a single offensive ability. Unlike the interference matrix, affected units can still attack but can no longer use abilities. This would make the raven stronger in PvT and useful against both HTs and disruptors (their damage is ability-based) but colossus and immortals wouldn't be affected by it. In TvZ, I believe this could provide very interesting late game interaction between spell casters, with ravens able to disable infestors or vipers, or maybe even swarmhosts. In TvT, it would be a direct nerf to ravens, which could no longer easily break siege tank lines by disabling them. On the other hand, one raven could disable many enemy ravens or BCs, potentially discouraging massing them in the late game.
Plasma shield drone: This is basically a toned-down version of the PDD that would function as a static protoss guardian shield. Instead of negating a 100% of damage over a short period of time, this would allow to negate a sizable amount of damage when used defensively, but would be ineffective against an overwhelming army force. The ability could also be used offensively but with the added risk of getting your ravens exposed while setting the drones up.
I'd love to hear people's thoughts. I think my proposal would fix a lot of problems with the current raven but I'm sure I've missed some unexpected consequences.
Anti armor missile isn't useless, when I Watch progames it seems to be even more used that the matrix. Its really powerful against both protoss gateway units and zerg roach based compositions and are used against them.
In regards to your proposed changes I could see the plasma shield work and be a cool spell, its basically a an improved static version of sentrys Guardian shield.
The interference missile on the other hand..... Just what? It Actives after 2 secondsand then travel time on top of that? It literally useless against Everything, hey there viper in 3 seconds you cant use your abilities… What you just janked me and I am dead? Hey there infestor in..... ops my army is already fungled/neurlaed. Hey there templar, ops I have no energy left. Disruptor same thing, if you see your disruptor is about to get intereferences missiled you either go agro and trigger it Before the missile hit or you just back away. Since the terran need to wait at least 3 seconds for the missile to hit you cant just attack the moment you deploy it so the enemy can Always just back away unless its siege tanks, err yeah right its useless against tanks.
Also you would see it used in TvT against other Ravens? Why no one would make ravens if they are useless, you would simply not have any ravens in TvT , if you got one you can intereference missile units that the enemy wont even have? Against BC they would be useless, if you deploy it when the BC is low they will just jump Before the missile hit, remember 3 second delay or if you hit it preemptively just take it if they think the BC can survive through the time it is intereference matrixed.
The only way this would even be viable to use against things like vipers, templars, infestors and such is if the Raven gets insane range on it so it can easily stay beyond feedback/yank which have 9 range, it would need at least 10 range to make it even usable which is crazy.
Plasma shield drone: This is basically a toned-down version of the PDD that would function as a static protoss guardian shield. Instead of negating a 100% of damage over a short period of time, this would allow to negate a sizable amount of damage when used defensively, but would be ineffective against an overwhelming army force. The ability could also be used offensively but with the added risk of getting your ravens exposed while setting the drones up.
While I did read this whole post and I did really enjoy reading it I think this part specifically stood out to me as possibly too strong. Imagine a hellbat raven push with this, even though it is a small bubble it wouldn't really be that useful outside of turtling against LB in small engagements or for very aggressive openers. I think the main issue the ravens always had is the way its damage from seeker missile happens. Storm can be cast instantly and does 80 damage however it's over 2 seconds and not instantly, Fungal Slows units and does its damage (50 I think?) over like 2 or 3 seconds. The Raven requires the units to be close to the missile (Which means if you retreat likelihood is you took damage from other units) before it goes off this is a cancer interaction similar to how in some games a protoss can kite you with colossi stalker, poke you with tempest and if you chase zone you out with disruptors. Perhaps lowering the amount done over a missile could work but I don't know how one would go about it and the more I do consider it I do think PDD would create and cause cancer games but my end goal is to ultimately make a raven that favors defensive play and adds late game utility and take away its role of being a must-make unit in matchups like TvT.
On March 04 2020 18:29 ilikeredheads wrote: I rather have defensive matrix over PDD. PDD doesn't work against units that instant fire, such as tanks, immortals, and colosuss.
That is the point, you don't want to stop all damage just projectile damage. Interference matrix removes key units which is an issue. PDD however would only stop something like vikings/libs in TvT for a while (Negating some damage) but still allowing key units that players often need such as colossus, tanks, or immortals to still do their proper DPS. In late game it stops corruptors from just walking up and killing you or killing a viking army if you're too busy micromanaging say a bio army vs lingbane. Either way I don't think PDD and Seeker should ever both be in the game but I don't think 2017s raven was too great of an issue in the metagame. In proplay and my own personal games, it was really rare to see.
I think Interference Matrix is a bit of a double-edged sword, since with it the tank positioning doesn't matter as much, but it also encourages proactive play, not leading to mass turtle snooze-fests
I'm all for a pure support version of the Raven: Abilities: * Anti-Armor Missile * PDD * Defense Matrix - as mentioned in this thread, let's make TvT tanks matter again. D-Matrix could really boost the power of tanks in all matchups.
Possibly Include: * SC2 campaign heal mech - As very expensive late game ability
while i agree with you that the matrix is unhealthy for the game, i disagree with your solutions. the PDD was absolute cancer. i would like to see a totally new spell to replace the matrix, one that is thought out better.
On March 05 2020 02:45 BisuDagger wrote: I'm all for a pure support version of the Raven: Abilities: * Anti-Armor Missile * PDD * Defense Matrix - as mentioned in this thread, let's make TvT tanks matter again. D-Matrix could really boost the power of tanks in all matchups.
Possibly Include: * SC2 campaign heal mech - As very expensive late game ability
I would love healing mech, that'd be so hot.
A single raven in TvZ can wreck a mid game zerg Roach/Hydra deathball and buy the terran enough time to build up a critical mass of Mech or allow them to defend the near-max midgame crush from Z.
On March 05 2020 05:08 freelifeffs wrote: while i agree with you that the matrix is unhealthy for the game, i disagree with your solutions. the PDD was absolute cancer. i would like to see a totally new spell to replace the matrix, one that is thought out better.
This is a missconception from a previus era, early HotS PDD lasted 180 whole HotS seconds, 128 current seconds.
Thats 2 WHOLE MINUTES. Considering it took a raven about 190 ingame seconds to gather 100 energy for another PDD.
And had a mana regeneration of 1 to 1 in HotS seconds (the drone had 200 started energy and every proyectile it stopped costed 10 energy)
So not only it lasted 2 whole minutes on the battlefield but after stopping its initial 20 shots it could gather energy to stopped another additional 18 shot and by the time the first PDD died the same raven would have enough energy for a second one.
Compare that to post patch PDD, only lasted 20 seconds, 14 current seconds, it could only gather energy for 2 extra shots and it would take another whole 160 HotS seconds to gather enough energy for another PDD.
EPT
