Rogue became the first player in StarCraft II history to imprint his name on the IEM Katowice championship trophy twice, winning a decisive 4-1 victory over Zest in the finals of the 2020 edition of the tournament. The Jin Air Zerg looked impressive from start to finish in the grand finals, deflecting Zest's harassment and ripping through his defenses with ease.
Zest had entered the finals after upsetting Serral 3-2 in the semis, an exclamation point in a brilliant comeback run where he played some of his best StarCraft II in years. Unfortunately for Zest, his five PvZ sets over the course of the tournament seemed to catch up to him in the grand finals, with Rogue's reads and gambles hitting with remarkable accuracy.
Serral had started off his series against Zest with a 2-1 lead, defending solidly against the glaive-adept play Zest had favored throughout the competition. However, he abruptly came undone in game four, being caught completely off guard by yet another twist on glaive-adepts from Zest. Zest closed the series out in game five, splitting Serral's defenses with warp prism tactics before overpowering him with chargelot-archon.
Somehow, Rogue entered the final day of matches as a somewhat understated championship candidate, despite accumulating a tournament-best 13-2 map record over the course of the group stage and quarterfinals. After topping his group to earn a bye to the quarterfinals, he had also crushed BlizzCon champ Dark 3-0 to secure his spot on the Spodek stage.
Rogue had to face teammate Maru in the semifinal match on his side of the bracket, with the two players trading blows in an offensive-minded series. The series ended in a traditional clash between muta-ling-bane and marine-medivac-mine, with Rogue able to overpower his teammate to secure the 3-2 victory.
Zest's five consecutive PvZ match victories—including one against Rogue in the group stage—may have made him look the favorite on paper, but in the end it only made him overexposed. Early game aggression was the name of the game for the finals, with most of the matches either being decided outright in the first few minutes, or seeing one player take an insurmountable advantage. Zest drew first blood with a quick cannon rush into proxy-robo immortal drop on Ephemeron, but that would prove to be his only win of the series. Be it by simply defending against Zest's glaive-adept timings or exploiting Zest's porous early-game defense with quick zergling attacks, Rogue steamrollered his way to four straight wins to claim the mantle of two-time IEM Katowice champion.
With his win in Poland, Rogue secured himself a seed at the Masters Championship at IEM Katowice 2021, and another $150,000 to add to his already significant career earnings. At the end of a playoffs where many expected either Maru or Serral to further their legacies, we've instead been left to wonder where Rogue must rank on the list of all-time greats.
Congrats Rogue. You looked villain to some due to your aggressive and unorthodox game plays, but you still managed to claim the throne more than others can do. Arguably the best Zerg player in the modern times.
On March 02 2020 01:47 Ej_ wrote: It is a very peculiar talent of Rogue to make every final he particilates in shit. And he wins them too!
5 of those were ZvP and I can't remember the last time that was a non-terrible match up. The other 2 were ZvZ and that's never been a non-terrible match up.
Never talk about Maru vs Serral again: Kaelaris and Artosis both had to go and open their big mouths. Although Maynarde looking visibly pissed on the desk was a fun photo grab after we knew we’d lost it again.
Maru vs Serral is now like Fight Club. And you do not talk about Fight Club.
On March 02 2020 01:41 Boggyb wrote: Rogue is both the best and sexiest SC2 player alive. An impressive accomplishment for someone TL labeled a patch Zerg.
He practically labeled himself a patchzerg last year
On March 02 2020 01:47 Ej_ wrote: It is a very peculiar talent of Rogue to make every final he particilates in shit. And he wins them too!
It's like he saw what soO did and thought "Imagine that but winning" :D
Rogue is the exact opposite of soO, he seems to be working less than everyone else, stomp all of his final and he pretty much has no fans, and someday he's going to finally lose a final and everyone will be ecstatic lol.
On March 02 2020 01:47 Ej_ wrote: It is a very peculiar talent of Rogue to make every final he particilates in shit. And he wins them too!
It's like he saw what soO did and thought "Imagine that but winning" :D
Rogue is the exact opposite of soO, he seems to be working less than everyone else, stomp all of his final and he pretty much has no fans, and someday he's going to finally lose a final and everyone will be ecstatic lol.
Rogue was one of my favourite players during HotS and he pretty much stayed there until he actually started winning tournaments in 2017.
Rogue is underrated. This guy can take ANYONE out, can play with a poker face while being down 0-2 to reverse sweep and he's (from what I read) is unbeatable in bo7. Sexy boy rising!
Another Torney won by Z... Looks like Z is still dominating the very high world class ranks - the current patch looks more balanced than the one before, though. Therefore I assume the current direction is the best one
On March 02 2020 01:47 Ej_ wrote: It is a very peculiar talent of Rogue to make every final he particilates in shit. And he wins them too!
It's like he saw what soO did and thought "Imagine that but winning" :D
Rogue is the exact opposite of soO, he seems to be working less than everyone else, stomp all of his final and he pretty much has no fans, and someday he's going to finally lose a final and everyone will be ecstatic lol.
If you're not a fan of Rogue it pretty much means you didn't watched the last 2 years of JAGW in Proleague. Definitely one of the most creative/entertaining players. + his wall of ro8 story is pretty cool.
Well, I spoke way too soon and I'm eating my shoe. I think Serral slept on Zest, thinking too much about his match against Maru or Rogue. Much like I did. Awh man. Well, 3/4 is still a great result... But yeah, Can't call him Flash after all.
Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Zest v Serral was a fun series, Serral appeared really frustrated at the end.
Grats to Rogue, though. Crazy to think that he, Serral and Maru are all within 6k$ of each other in total earnings. That accounts for less than 1% of their totals. And all three of them were in the semis of this tourney.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
yeah that's why he was the only T to get into ro16 during the blink era. Inno has won titles almost every year. Patch Terran. You're pathetic.
It really looks like you started watching SC2 with LotV.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
yeah that's why he was the only T to get into ro16 during the blink era. Inno has won titles almost every year. Patch Terran. You're pathetic.
It really looks like you started watching SC2 with LotV.
This idea of patch Terran Inno is yours entirely, jumping to conclusions is pathetic, isn't it? Inno, unlike Maru, tends not to shine when Terran is weak; this doesn't mean he never did, but his career as a top player(not merely as a sc2) is much longer than Rogue's, and more successful.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
yeah that's why he was the only T to get into ro16 during the blink era. Inno has won titles almost every year. Patch Terran. You're pathetic.
It really looks like you started watching SC2 with LotV.
This idea of patch Terran Inno is yours entirely, jumping to conclusions is pathetic, isn't it? Inno, unlike Maru, tends not to shine when Terran is weak; this doesn't mean he never did, but his career as a top player(not merely as a sc2) is much longer than Rogue's, and more successful.
Yup if you think that Maru shined when Terran was weak you're definitely a LotV only watcher. There are probably less than 10 pro who were extremely good when their race was stupidly weak .Nestea, Mvp, MC, Polt for the first 5 years were good example at some points but it was easier for Nestea/MC since the game was young, I don't know who would be the best P against BL/Infestor in 2012 for that. Polt was the only Terran with one good run in the Blink era and I won't comment on PvZ imbalance by ignorance and lack of memory. Terran since then has always been ok and a race you could win with, with ups (late HotS mech vZ, dropping on colossi vP, Liberators bonanza and raven patch in LotV) and down but nothing that would cripple a top player into ro16/8.
Maru never had anything close to Polt's miraculous run at IEM Cologne which is probably the best showing of anyone fighting stupid imbalance.
That's Maru first win for you, definitely a not Terran favored era :D :D :D (and what a lovely 2rax in game 3) 2013 WCS Season 2 Korea OSL/Premier
On March 02 2020 01:47 Ej_ wrote: It is a very peculiar talent of Rogue to make every final he particilates in shit. And he wins them too!
It's like he saw what soO did and thought "Imagine that but winning" :D
Rogue is the exact opposite of soO, he seems to be working less than everyone else, stomp all of his final and he pretty much has no fans, and someday he's going to finally lose a final and everyone will be ecstatic lol.
If you're not a fan of Rogue it pretty much means you didn't watched the last 2 years of JAGW in Proleague. Definitely one of the most creative/entertaining players. + his wall of ro8 story is pretty cool.
I was a soO fan boy and those two apparently had a grudge back in the days and Rogue was always beeting him, so I was hill equipped to love him haha. I also was salty every time people said Life was the best zerg But in all fairness the round 8 + invicibility in bo7 in a really good and he do has some incredibly sick build
On March 02 2020 01:47 Ej_ wrote: It is a very peculiar talent of Rogue to make every final he particilates in shit. And he wins them too!
It's like he saw what soO did and thought "Imagine that but winning" :D
Rogue is the exact opposite of soO, he seems to be working less than everyone else, stomp all of his final and he pretty much has no fans, and someday he's going to finally lose a final and everyone will be ecstatic lol.
If you're not a fan of Rogue it pretty much means you didn't watched the last 2 years of JAGW in Proleague. Definitely one of the most creative/entertaining players. + his wall of ro8 story is pretty cool.
I was a soO fan boy and those two apparently had a grudge back in the days and Rogue was always beeting him, so I was hill equipped to love him haha. I also was salty every time people said Life was the best zerg But in all fairness the round 8 + invicibility in bo7 in a really good and he do has some incredibly sick build
Disliking a player because he keeps dunking your favorite player is one of the best reason to dislike someone :D
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
yeah that's why he was the only T to get into ro16 during the blink era. Inno has won titles almost every year. Patch Terran. You're pathetic.
It really looks like you started watching SC2 with LotV.
This idea of patch Terran Inno is yours entirely, jumping to conclusions is pathetic, isn't it? Inno, unlike Maru, tends not to shine when Terran is weak; this doesn't mean he never did, but his career as a top player(not merely as a sc2) is much longer than Rogue's, and more successful.
Yup if you think that Maru shined when Terran was weak you're definitely a LotV only watcher. There are probably less than 10 pro who were extremely good when their race was stupidly weak .Nestea, Mvp, MC, Polt for the first 5 years were good example at some points but it was easier for Nestea/MC since the game was young, I don't know who would be the best P against BL/Infestor in 2012 for that. Polt was the only Terran with one good run in the Blink era and I won't comment on PvZ imbalance by ignorance and lack of memory. Terran since then has always been ok and a race you could win with, with ups (late HotS mech vZ, dropping on colossi vP, Liberators bonanza and raven patch in LotV) and down but nothing that would cripple a top player into ro16/8.
Maru never had anything close to Polt's miraculous run at IEM Cologne which is probably the best showing of anyone fighting stupid imbalance.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
yeah that's why he was the only T to get into ro16 during the blink era. Inno has won titles almost every year. Patch Terran. You're pathetic.
It really looks like you started watching SC2 with LotV.
This idea of patch Terran Inno is yours entirely, jumping to conclusions is pathetic, isn't it? Inno, unlike Maru, tends not to shine when Terran is weak; this doesn't mean he never did, but his career as a top player(not merely as a sc2) is much longer than Rogue's, and more successful.
Yup if you think that Maru shined when Terran was weak you're definitely a LotV only watcher. There are probably less than 10 pro who were extremely good when their race was stupidly weak .Nestea, Mvp, MC, Polt for the first 5 years were good example at some points but it was easier for Nestea/MC since the game was young, I don't know who would be the best P against BL/Infestor in 2012 for that. Polt was the only Terran with one good run in the Blink era and I won't comment on PvZ imbalance by ignorance and lack of memory. Terran since then has always been ok and a race you could win with, with ups (late HotS mech vZ, dropping on colossi vP, Liberators bonanza and raven patch in LotV) and down but nothing that would cripple a top player into ro16/8.
Maru never had anything close to Polt's miraculous run at IEM Cologne which is probably the best showing of anyone fighting stupid imbalance.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
yeah that's why he was the only T to get into ro16 during the blink era. Inno has won titles almost every year. Patch Terran. You're pathetic.
It really looks like you started watching SC2 with LotV.
This idea of patch Terran Inno is yours entirely, jumping to conclusions is pathetic, isn't it? Inno, unlike Maru, tends not to shine when Terran is weak; this doesn't mean he never did, but his career as a top player(not merely as a sc2) is much longer than Rogue's, and more successful.
Yup if you think that Maru shined when Terran was weak you're definitely a LotV only watcher. There are probably less than 10 pro who were extremely good when their race was stupidly weak .Nestea, Mvp, MC, Polt for the first 5 years were good example at some points but it was easier for Nestea/MC since the game was young, I don't know who would be the best P against BL/Infestor in 2012 for that. Polt was the only Terran with one good run in the Blink era and I won't comment on PvZ imbalance by ignorance and lack of memory. Terran since then has always been ok and a race you could win with, with ups (late HotS mech vZ, dropping on colossi vP, Liberators bonanza and raven patch in LotV) and down but nothing that would cripple a top player into ro16/8.
Maru never had anything close to Polt's miraculous run at IEM Cologne which is probably the best showing of anyone fighting stupid imbalance.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
yeah that's why he was the only T to get into ro16 during the blink era. Inno has won titles almost every year. Patch Terran. You're pathetic.
It really looks like you started watching SC2 with LotV.
This idea of patch Terran Inno is yours entirely, jumping to conclusions is pathetic, isn't it? Inno, unlike Maru, tends not to shine when Terran is weak; this doesn't mean he never did, but his career as a top player(not merely as a sc2) is much longer than Rogue's, and more successful.
Yup if you think that Maru shined when Terran was weak you're definitely a LotV only watcher. There are probably less than 10 pro who were extremely good when their race was stupidly weak .Nestea, Mvp, MC, Polt for the first 5 years were good example at some points but it was easier for Nestea/MC since the game was young, I don't know who would be the best P against BL/Infestor in 2012 for that. Polt was the only Terran with one good run in the Blink era and I won't comment on PvZ imbalance by ignorance and lack of memory. Terran since then has always been ok and a race you could win with, with ups (late HotS mech vZ, dropping on colossi vP, Liberators bonanza and raven patch in LotV) and down but nothing that would cripple a top player into ro16/8.
Maru never had anything close to Polt's miraculous run at IEM Cologne which is probably the best showing of anyone fighting stupid imbalance.
the WESG 2017 finals was actually played in 2018 where Maru was the only terran in the ro8 in 2 consecutive tournaments and won them both. I stand corrected on the GSL but it doesn't really matter because the balance was just as bad in the season where he got ro4 as it was in the season where he got ro8.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
I feel rogue was even nervous than zest before the last game starts, it's like "what if he reverse sweep me now?" Still, contrats to rogue, being the one and only iem Katowice two time champion
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
It's really evil to use facts. But what gets me - they actually mentioned 2018 champion Rogue in the finals. So he should have known at least that.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
It's really evil to use facts. But what gets me - they actually mentioned 2018 champion Rogue in the finals. So he should have known at least that.
It's really pointless to use facts not disproving what I have been saying, and really hilarious thinking to be smart while mentioning them.
All these results took place before Serral ascended(MID 2018 tells you anything?);Dark lost to Stats at Super Tournament I in April 2018, before Serral lost 0-2 to soO during Nation Wars. After that, Serral didn't lose a series until Katowice in 2019 and won 6 consecutive tournaments while korean Zerg couldn't reach ro4 in seasons 2 and 3 of Code S and Reynor was the only other Zerg getting to a final, at WCS Montreal.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
It's really evil to use facts. But what gets me - they actually mentioned 2018 champion Rogue in the finals. So he should have known at least that.
It's really pointless to use facts not disproving what I have been saying, and really hilarious thinking to be smart while mentioning them.
All these results took place before Serral ascended(MID 2018 tells you anything?);Dark lost to Stats at Super Tournament I in April 2018, before Serral lost 0-2 to soO during Nation Wars. After that, Serral didn't lose a series until Katowice in 2019 and won 6 consecutive tournaments while korean Zerg couldn't reach ro4 in seasons 2 and 3 of Code S and Reynor was the only other Zerg getting to a final, at WCS Montreal.
And Zerg's been dominating since 2017, Serral does well when Zerg does well, that's all. And yes, concerning Reynor, he wasn't full time at the time, but he managed to make it to the final, maybe because he only faced P and T from ro32 ? There is something wrong, but we can't complain on tl.net or blizzard forums, so here we are, with this dreadful meta.
On March 02 2020 03:32 Vindicare605 wrote: JIN AIR!!!!! GREEENNNNN!!!! WWWWWWWWWWWWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGSSSSS!!!
I like Jin Air as a team, but I really hope Trap/Creator can deliver one day, they need to inherit sOs' legacy since he will be the first to retire. The legend of Jin Air trio has to be continued to the end of this game.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
It's really evil to use facts. But what gets me - they actually mentioned 2018 champion Rogue in the finals. So he should have known at least that.
It's really pointless to use facts not disproving what I have been saying, and really hilarious thinking to be smart while mentioning them.
All these results took place before Serral ascended(MID 2018 tells you anything?);Dark lost to Stats at Super Tournament I in April 2018, before Serral lost 0-2 to soO during Nation Wars. After that, Serral didn't lose a series until Katowice in 2019 and won 6 consecutive tournaments while korean Zerg couldn't reach ro4 in seasons 2 and 3 of Code S and Reynor was the only other Zerg getting to a final, at WCS Montreal.
Am I the only one who is curious why didn't Inno or Maru tried mech? I mean, they had 8 series combined against zerg, and not even one try to go for it. Also they barely tried to go for late game. Not long ago (1,5 - 2 years ago) Maru destroyed almost every zerg late game, with his overwhelming Micro, Macro, Mechanic.. Inno even recently beat Serral in WESG and Katowice group stage super late game..
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
It's really evil to use facts. But what gets me - they actually mentioned 2018 champion Rogue in the finals. So he should have known at least that.
It's really pointless to use facts not disproving what I have been saying, and really hilarious thinking to be smart while mentioning them.
All these results took place before Serral ascended(MID 2018 tells you anything?);Dark lost to Stats at Super Tournament I in April 2018, before Serral lost 0-2 to soO during Nation Wars. After that, Serral didn't lose a series until Katowice in 2019 and won 6 consecutive tournaments while korean Zerg couldn't reach ro4 in seasons 2 and 3 of Code S and Reynor was the only other Zerg getting to a final, at WCS Montreal.
Also Dark and Rogue would have reached the finals of GSL vs the world/Blizzcon if they didn't lose to Serral. "No other Zerg was doing well" lol
Just weird circumstance but we didn’t really get too many quality series in the Ro12 onwards, can’t be helped but still disappointing. Quite a few 3-0 stomps, pretty atrocious finals. sOs against Maru was at least enjoyable in a clown fiesta way.
On March 02 2020 06:40 Wombat_NI wrote: Fucking hell this thread is well on topic
WP Rogue. Pretty underwhelming tournament for me.
Just weird circumstance but we didn’t really get too many quality series in the Ro12 onwards, can’t be helped but still disappointing. Quite a few 3-0 stomps, pretty atrocious finals. sOs against Maru was at least enjoyable in a clown fiesta way.
Cure and TY was probably the pick of ones I saw.
Cure Ty was "good" in that the decisive engagements were particularly close and well microed, which made those engagements sick to watch, but in between those engagements it was still 35 minute TvT missile turret turtle hell
On March 02 2020 06:40 Wombat_NI wrote: Fucking hell this thread is well on topic
WP Rogue. Pretty underwhelming tournament for me.
Just weird circumstance but we didn’t really get too many quality series in the Ro12 onwards, can’t be helped but still disappointing. Quite a few 3-0 stomps, pretty atrocious finals. sOs against Maru was at least enjoyable in a clown fiesta way.
Cure and TY was probably the pick of ones I saw.
Cure Ty was "good" in that the decisive engagements were particularly close and well microed, which made those engagements sick to watch, but in between those engagements it was still 35 minute TvT missile turret turtle hell
There was the turret hell game too, although that was more tolerable as we had relatively few super late games across all the matchups that I can recall.
Congratulations Rogue, best zerg in 2020 so far, thanks for being honest even though you made a lot of money from favorable meta Jin Air still super strong, and even though Protoss is good right now especially in PvT, it’s funny how people were saying they should have kept Cure and fired sOs instead -> he qualified over him after a h2h win
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
It's really evil to use facts. But what gets me - they actually mentioned 2018 champion Rogue in the finals. So he should have known at least that.
It's really pointless to use facts not disproving what I have been saying, and really hilarious thinking to be smart while mentioning them.
All these results took place before Serral ascended(MID 2018 tells you anything?);Dark lost to Stats at Super Tournament I in April 2018, before Serral lost 0-2 to soO during Nation Wars. After that, Serral didn't lose a series until Katowice in 2019 and won 6 consecutive tournaments while korean Zerg couldn't reach ro4 in seasons 2 and 3 of Code S and Reynor was the only other Zerg getting to a final, at WCS Montreal.
Lets count Serrals results only from the time he stared winning guys, that seems like a really good metric ! The Xianoin logic in practice
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
It's really evil to use facts. But what gets me - they actually mentioned 2018 champion Rogue in the finals. So he should have known at least that.
It's really pointless to use facts not disproving what I have been saying, and really hilarious thinking to be smart while mentioning them.
All these results took place before Serral ascended(MID 2018 tells you anything?);Dark lost to Stats at Super Tournament I in April 2018, before Serral lost 0-2 to soO during Nation Wars. After that, Serral didn't lose a series until Katowice in 2019 and won 6 consecutive tournaments while korean Zerg couldn't reach ro4 in seasons 2 and 3 of Code S and Reynor was the only other Zerg getting to a final, at WCS Montreal.
Lets count Serrals results only from the time he stared winning guys, that seems like a really good metric ! The Xianoin logic in practice
If you did not notice, the discussion started because someone said Serral won/wins when Zerg is strong so it should seem logical to everyone that I start counting from there.
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
It's really evil to use facts. But what gets me - they actually mentioned 2018 champion Rogue in the finals. So he should have known at least that.
It's really pointless to use facts not disproving what I have been saying, and really hilarious thinking to be smart while mentioning them.
All these results took place before Serral ascended(MID 2018 tells you anything?);Dark lost to Stats at Super Tournament I in April 2018, before Serral lost 0-2 to soO during Nation Wars. After that, Serral didn't lose a series until Katowice in 2019 and won 6 consecutive tournaments while korean Zerg couldn't reach ro4 in seasons 2 and 3 of Code S and Reynor was the only other Zerg getting to a final, at WCS Montreal.
Lets count Serrals results only from the time he stared winning guys, that seems like a really good metric ! The Xianoin logic in practice
If you did not notice, the discussion started because someone said Serral won/wins when Zerg is strong so it should seem logical to everyone that I start counting from there.
On a side note, "Xiainoin" genuinely amused me
If Zerg was weak when Classic spanked Serral like a little bitch, how did Rogue make Classic look like a complete clown about two hours later to win a world title?
If Zerg was weak when Maru made Serral call him daddy, how did Dark manage to push Maru to his limit such that he had to proxy rax him twice in a row to win WESG?
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
yeah that's why he was the only T to get into ro16 during the blink era. Inno has won titles almost every year. Patch Terran. You're pathetic.
It really looks like you started watching SC2 with LotV.
This idea of patch Terran Inno is yours entirely, jumping to conclusions is pathetic, isn't it? Inno, unlike Maru, tends not to shine when Terran is weak; this doesn't mean he never did, but his career as a top player(not merely as a sc2) is much longer than Rogue's, and more successful.
Yup if you think that Maru shined when Terran was weak you're definitely a LotV only watcher. There are probably less than 10 pro who were extremely good when their race was stupidly weak .Nestea, Mvp, MC, Polt for the first 5 years were good example at some points but it was easier for Nestea/MC since the game was young, I don't know who would be the best P against BL/Infestor in 2012 for that. Polt was the only Terran with one good run in the Blink era and I won't comment on PvZ imbalance by ignorance and lack of memory. Terran since then has always been ok and a race you could win with, with ups (late HotS mech vZ, dropping on colossi vP, Liberators bonanza and raven patch in LotV) and down but nothing that would cripple a top player into ro16/8.
Maru never had anything close to Polt's miraculous run at IEM Cologne which is probably the best showing of anyone fighting stupid imbalance.
Doing well in an unfavored era doesn't mean necessarily actually winning trophies. Late 2013 until mid 2014 was brutally dominated by Protoss and Zerg. All 7 premier events which Maru played at that time were won by a Protoss. In 2 of those events Maru was one of the two last Terrans in the other 5 events he was the last Terran standing. He was called Terran messiah for a reason still in 2015 when Maru had a good performance again and Protoss also had an upswing again. Also many forget that Maru was absoluty killing it in Proleague in 2014 and 2015, continiously performing great no matter how disfavorable the meta may have been for terran at times.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
and with Serral
Lies.
It is just a coincidence that he was nothing as a player until 2017 when the world champion was called a patch Zerg, that 2018 had Scarlett who had never won or come close to winning anything ever win her first premiere championship, and that 2019 had soO break his Kong curse, Dark break his worse than soO Kong curse, and Rogue break his GSL curse.
Blatant, gratuitous lies in fact. Serral went full time in 2017, ascended to god tier level mid 2018 when no other Zerg was doing well and won HSC when every Zerg, Rogue included was getting stomped by Terran. Aren't you bored of hating for the sake of it? That's something Imre would call pathetic.
In 2018: Scarlett won IEM PyeongChang Rogue won IEM Katowice Dark made 5 top 4s, two of which he made the finals and lost 4:3.
It's really evil to use facts. But what gets me - they actually mentioned 2018 champion Rogue in the finals. So he should have known at least that.
It's really pointless to use facts not disproving what I have been saying, and really hilarious thinking to be smart while mentioning them.
All these results took place before Serral ascended(MID 2018 tells you anything?);Dark lost to Stats at Super Tournament I in April 2018, before Serral lost 0-2 to soO during Nation Wars. After that, Serral didn't lose a series until Katowice in 2019 and won 6 consecutive tournaments while korean Zerg couldn't reach ro4 in seasons 2 and 3 of Code S and Reynor was the only other Zerg getting to a final, at WCS Montreal.
Lets count Serrals results only from the time he stared winning guys, that seems like a really good metric ! The Xianoin logic in practice
If you did not notice, the discussion started because someone said Serral won/wins when Zerg is strong so it should seem logical to everyone that I start counting from there.
On a side note, "Xiainoin" genuinely amused me
If Zerg was weak when Classic spanked Serral like a little bitch, how did Rogue make Classic look like a complete clown about two hours later to win a world title?
If Zerg was weak when Maru made Serral call him daddy, how did Dark manage to push Maru to his limit such that he had to proxy rax him twice in a row to win WESG?
That's being dull and/or not reading what I am writing.
Pyeonchang, Katowice, WESG tournaments took place before Serral fully expressed his potential; at the time, Rogue and Dark simply were stronger players.
Serral reached his peak months later, on a different patch that saw other Zerg players not winning any tournament; I didn't and would not say that the race was weak but it certainly wasn't very strong or dominant like you guys are claiming.
Those unnecessarily provocative terms you are using are simply out of place.
On March 02 2020 03:08 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is very strong when Zerg is strong, and he openly says that. When Zerg is not strong, he drops 0-4 out of Code S. You could forgive Mizen when he called him a patch Zerg because that was just the first patch in which Rogue shone.
In reality, Rogue is kind of a Zerg version of Inno, and he doesn't have many fans because of his extremely abusive playstyle. At his best he is much stronger than Dark in ZvZ and more aggressive and more clutch than Serral(of the current version of Serral, at least).
I think we can consider LoTV as a Z patch. INno has a lot of fans.
Inno shares with Rogue the fact that he is very strong when his race is strong, not his playstyle.
yeah that's why he was the only T to get into ro16 during the blink era. Inno has won titles almost every year. Patch Terran. You're pathetic.
It really looks like you started watching SC2 with LotV.
This idea of patch Terran Inno is yours entirely, jumping to conclusions is pathetic, isn't it? Inno, unlike Maru, tends not to shine when Terran is weak; this doesn't mean he never did, but his career as a top player(not merely as a sc2) is much longer than Rogue's, and more successful.
Yup if you think that Maru shined when Terran was weak you're definitely a LotV only watcher. There are probably less than 10 pro who were extremely good when their race was stupidly weak .Nestea, Mvp, MC, Polt for the first 5 years were good example at some points but it was easier for Nestea/MC since the game was young, I don't know who would be the best P against BL/Infestor in 2012 for that. Polt was the only Terran with one good run in the Blink era and I won't comment on PvZ imbalance by ignorance and lack of memory. Terran since then has always been ok and a race you could win with, with ups (late HotS mech vZ, dropping on colossi vP, Liberators bonanza and raven patch in LotV) and down but nothing that would cripple a top player into ro16/8.
Maru never had anything close to Polt's miraculous run at IEM Cologne which is probably the best showing of anyone fighting stupid imbalance.
Doing well in an unfavored era doesn't mean necessarily actually winning trophies. Late 2013 until mid 2014 was brutally dominated by Protoss and Zerg. All 7 premier events which Maru played at that time were won by a Protoss. In 2 of those events Maru was one of the two last Terrans in the other 5 events he was the last Terran standing. He was called Terran messiah for a reason still in 2015 when Maru had a good performance again and Protoss also had an upswing again. Also many forget that Maru was absoluty killing it in Proleague in 2014 and 2015, continiously performing great no matter how disfavorable the meta may have been for terran at times.
There might be some sweet spot for him that’s somewhere between Terran being absolutely garbage and on par with the other races.
Bad for the game sure, probably not bad for Maru if it’s slightly unbalanced. His potential opponents get less vT practice in general and Mary has to practice less vT if they aren’t around.
I dare say, despite the Blizzcon win that Dark would be a beneficiary if Zerg was a bit weaker now and brackets were less Zerg stacked.
function count(header, c) { var table = header.parent().nextAll('table')[0]; table = $(table); var t = table.find('[title=Terran]').length; var p = table.find('[title=Protoss]').length; var z = table.find('[title=Zerg]').length; if(!c) c={t:t,p:p,z:z}; else { c.t+=t; c.p+=p; c.z+=z; } c.total = c.t+c.p+c.z; return c; }
function percent(v, total) { return Math.round(v/total*100)+"%"; }
var out='counting finalists\n'; for(var i=2010; i<=2020; i++) { var h=$('#'+i); var c = count(h); if( $('#'+i+"_2").length ) { h=$('#'+i+"_2"); c = count(h, c); } out += i+", T="+c.t+", P="+c.p+", Z="+c.z; out += "\n percents: "; out += "T="+percent(c.t, c.total)+", P="+percent(c.p, c.total)+", Z="+percent(c.z, c.total)+"\n\n"; } console.log(out);
2019 is the worst percentage with zerg at 62%, otherwise no race has gotten over 50% for any year, and the only 50% was back in 2010 with terran (excluding this year of course)
function count(header, c) { var table = header.parent().nextAll('table')[0]; table = $(table); var t = table.find('[title=Terran]').length; var p = table.find('[title=Protoss]').length; var z = table.find('[title=Zerg]').length; if(!c) c={t:t,p:p,z:z}; else { c.t+=t; c.p+=p; c.z+=z; } c.total = c.t+c.p+c.z; return c; }
function percent(v, total) { return Math.round(v/total*100)+"%"; }
var out='counting finalists\n'; for(var i=2010; i<=2020; i++) { var h=$('#'+i); var c = count(h); if( $('#'+i+"_2").length ) { h=$('#'+i+"_2"); c = count(h, c); } out += i+", T="+c.t+", P="+c.p+", Z="+c.z; out += "\n percents: "; out += "T="+percent(c.t, c.total)+", P="+percent(c.p, c.total)+", Z="+percent(c.z, c.total)+"\n\n"; } console.log(out);
2019 is the worst percentage with zerg at 62%, otherwise no race has gotten over 50% for a year, and the only 50% was back in 2010 with terran (excluding this year of course)
terran has been the lowest race since 2014 lol
Terran representation would be even lower if you were to expand the range to quarter-finals instead of finals. The brackets in this IEM were stacked with mirror MUs which gives us the impression that Terrans can make it deep into tourneys because of Maru and Inno.
function count(header, c) { var table = header.parent().nextAll('table')[0]; table = $(table); var t = table.find('[title=Terran]').length; var p = table.find('[title=Protoss]').length; var z = table.find('[title=Zerg]').length; if(!c) c={t:t,p:p,z:z}; else { c.t+=t; c.p+=p; c.z+=z; } c.total = c.t+c.p+c.z; return c; }
function percent(v, total) { return Math.round(v/total*100)+"%"; }
var out='counting finalists\n'; for(var i=2010; i<=2020; i++) { var h=$('#'+i); var c = count(h); if( $('#'+i+"_2").length ) { h=$('#'+i+"_2"); c = count(h, c); } out += i+", T="+c.t+", P="+c.p+", Z="+c.z; out += "\n percents: "; out += "T="+percent(c.t, c.total)+", P="+percent(c.p, c.total)+", Z="+percent(c.z, c.total)+"\n\n"; } console.log(out);
2019 is the worst percentage with zerg at 62%, otherwise no race has gotten over 50% for a year, and the only 50% was back in 2010 with terran (excluding this year of course)
terran has been the lowest race since 2014 lol
Terran representation would be even lower if you were to expand the range to quarter-finals instead of finals. The brackets in this IEM were stacked with mirror MUs which gives us the impression that Terrans can make it deep into tourneys because of Maru and Inno.
Maru is almost always the last terran standing, it's insane
function count(header, c) { var table = header.parent().nextAll('table')[0]; table = $(table); var t = table.find('[title=Terran]').length; var p = table.find('[title=Protoss]').length; var z = table.find('[title=Zerg]').length; if(!c) c={t:t,p:p,z:z}; else { c.t+=t; c.p+=p; c.z+=z; } c.total = c.t+c.p+c.z; return c; }
function percent(v, total) { return Math.round(v/total*100)+"%"; }
var out='counting finalists\n'; for(var i=2010; i<=2020; i++) { var h=$('#'+i); var c = count(h); if( $('#'+i+"_2").length ) { h=$('#'+i+"_2"); c = count(h, c); } out += i+", T="+c.t+", P="+c.p+", Z="+c.z; out += "\n percents: "; out += "T="+percent(c.t, c.total)+", P="+percent(c.p, c.total)+", Z="+percent(c.z, c.total)+"\n\n"; } console.log(out);
2019 is the worst percentage with zerg at 62%, otherwise no race has gotten over 50% for a year, and the only 50% was back in 2010 with terran (excluding this year of course)
terran has been the lowest race since 2014 lol
Terran representation would be even lower if you were to expand the range to quarter-finals instead of finals. The brackets in this IEM were stacked with mirror MUs which gives us the impression that Terrans can make it deep into tourneys because of Maru and Inno.
Maru is almost always the last terran standing, it's insane
As a Terran player, it's rare for me to randomly turn on a tournament stream and find a Terran. I know it should be like 33% ideally, but realistically, it feels like 10% or less.
I think the design for Terran has to be more forgiving with the same potential at near-max (maru) skill level. That way, there will be plenty of Terran games to watch, and Maru doesn't bankrupt all other SC2 pros. lol
function count(header, c) { var table = header.parent().nextAll('table')[0]; table = $(table); var t = table.find('[title=Terran]').length; var p = table.find('[title=Protoss]').length; var z = table.find('[title=Zerg]').length; if(!c) c={t:t,p:p,z:z}; else { c.t+=t; c.p+=p; c.z+=z; } c.total = c.t+c.p+c.z; return c; }
function percent(v, total) { return Math.round(v/total*100)+"%"; }
var out='counting finalists\n'; for(var i=2010; i<=2020; i++) { var h=$('#'+i); var c = count(h); if( $('#'+i+"_2").length ) { h=$('#'+i+"_2"); c = count(h, c); } out += i+", T="+c.t+", P="+c.p+", Z="+c.z; out += "\n percents: "; out += "T="+percent(c.t, c.total)+", P="+percent(c.p, c.total)+", Z="+percent(c.z, c.total)+"\n\n"; } console.log(out);
2019 is the worst percentage with zerg at 62%, otherwise no race has gotten over 50% for a year, and the only 50% was back in 2010 with terran (excluding this year of course)
terran has been the lowest race since 2014 lol
Terran representation would be even lower if you were to expand the range to quarter-finals instead of finals. The brackets in this IEM were stacked with mirror MUs which gives us the impression that Terrans can make it deep into tourneys because of Maru and Inno.
Maru is almost always the last terran standing, it's insane
I think part of it come from the relatively bad performance of Terran in Korea during Hots, there doesn't seem to have been a lot of Kespa terran who stuck around for long compare to the Protoss and Zerg.(especially protoss since they did so well in the Kespa-era) In 2016 we pretty much only had TY, Cure, INno and Bunny left, with of course the pre-kespa crew but most of them ended up on losing team during proleague and the top teams had very few terran player in their squad, Maru going from Prime to JinAir is the only transfer of a terran to a big team I can think of. Losing Bbyong and Yoda to match fixing didn't help either.
Maybe if Terran had did better during HOTS we would have seen guys like Dream, SuperNova and Fantasy wait longer to go to the military, or Flash, Reality and Skyhigh stick around a bit, or maybe we could have seen aLive and Ryung in the SKT or JinAir team house.
those who think serral sucks simply because he lost to zest, trust me, it is just that zest being lucky. if the competition goes like everyone has to play with all other opponents. i suppose serral will win most of the games. and trust me, because of time and budget issue, these esports companies simply wont do it, triggering unfairness.
cant they run esports just like English Premier League... so stupid
How many were watching the finals? Unfortunately I couldn't catch any games on sunday but the days before felt like there wasn't too much interest in the tournament.
On March 02 2020 02:04 StarcraftSquall wrote: Never talk about Maru vs Serral again: Kaelaris and Artosis both had to go and open their big mouths. Although Maynarde looking visibly pissed on the desk was a fun photo grab after we knew we’d lost it again.
Maru vs Serral is now like Fight Club. And you do not talk about Fight Club.
function count(header, c) { var table = header.parent().nextAll('table')[0]; table = $(table); var t = table.find('[title=Terran]').length; var p = table.find('[title=Protoss]').length; var z = table.find('[title=Zerg]').length; if(!c) c={t:t,p:p,z:z}; else { c.t+=t; c.p+=p; c.z+=z; } c.total = c.t+c.p+c.z; return c; }
function percent(v, total) { return Math.round(v/total*100)+"%"; }
var out='counting finalists\n'; for(var i=2010; i<=2020; i++) { var h=$('#'+i); var c = count(h); if( $('#'+i+"_2").length ) { h=$('#'+i+"_2"); c = count(h, c); } out += i+", T="+c.t+", P="+c.p+", Z="+c.z; out += "\n percents: "; out += "T="+percent(c.t, c.total)+", P="+percent(c.p, c.total)+", Z="+percent(c.z, c.total)+"\n\n"; } console.log(out);
2019 is the worst percentage with zerg at 62%, otherwise no race has gotten over 50% for any year, and the only 50% was back in 2010 with terran (excluding this year of course)
terran has been the lowest race since 2014 lol
Interesting. Could you do the same count for Top4? And maybe also Top8?
On March 02 2020 15:43 Harris1st wrote: Also: Damn guys, the hate in this thread... dafuq is going on?
Yeah, and it's just ridiculous that it's the same group of people who redo this debate after every single event. Reminds me of the Terminator movies or something, just let it go already.
function count(header, c) { var table = header.parent().nextAll('table')[0]; table = $(table); var t = table.find('[title=Terran]').length; var p = table.find('[title=Protoss]').length; var z = table.find('[title=Zerg]').length; if(!c) c={t:t,p:p,z:z}; else { c.t+=t; c.p+=p; c.z+=z; } c.total = c.t+c.p+c.z; return c; }
function percent(v, total) { return Math.round(v/total*100)+"%"; }
var out='counting finalists\n'; for(var i=2010; i<=2020; i++) { var h=$('#'+i); var c = count(h); if( $('#'+i+"_2").length ) { h=$('#'+i+"_2"); c = count(h, c); } out += i+", T="+c.t+", P="+c.p+", Z="+c.z; out += "\n percents: "; out += "T="+percent(c.t, c.total)+", P="+percent(c.p, c.total)+", Z="+percent(c.z, c.total)+"\n\n"; } console.log(out);
2019 is the worst percentage with zerg at 62%, otherwise no race has gotten over 50% for any year, and the only 50% was back in 2010 with terran (excluding this year of course)
terran has been the lowest race since 2014 lol
Interesting. Could you do the same count for Top4? And maybe also Top8?
function count(header, c) { var table = header.parent().nextAll('table')[0]; table = $(table); var t = table.find('[title=Terran]').length; var p = table.find('[title=Protoss]').length; var z = table.find('[title=Zerg]').length; if(!c) c={t:t,p:p,z:z}; else { c.t+=t; c.p+=p; c.z+=z; } c.total = c.t+c.p+c.z; return c; }
function percent(v, total) { return Math.round(v/total*100)+"%"; }
var out='counting finalists\n'; for(var i=2010; i<=2020; i++) { var h=$('#'+i); var c = count(h); if( $('#'+i+"_2").length ) { h=$('#'+i+"_2"); c = count(h, c); } out += i+", T="+c.t+", P="+c.p+", Z="+c.z; out += "\n percents: "; out += "T="+percent(c.t, c.total)+", P="+percent(c.p, c.total)+", Z="+percent(c.z, c.total)+"\n\n"; } console.log(out);
2019 is the worst percentage with zerg at 62%, otherwise no race has gotten over 50% for any year, and the only 50% was back in 2010 with terran (excluding this year of course)
terran has been the lowest race since 2014 lol
Interesting. Could you do the same count for Top4? And maybe also Top8?
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I guess all the more "recent" Zergs like Dark, Rogue and Serral have gained a few places
"Gained a few places", the casters openly talk about how the two GOATs got knocked out in to RO4.... Such brazen BS, Serral and Maru regarded as equal GOATs while no mention of Inno…. I don't even like Inno and it makes me fume
Edit: On the topic, yes Rogue has to be in the top 10 now, as weird as that sounds. I'm a Rogue fan but it still feels so wrong to have a player win the Championship go yeah I was planning to take it easy and not play so much since I don't really feel the passion for the game anymore but heh well, guess I won huh
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I guess all the more "recent" Zergs like Dark, Rogue and Serral have gained a few places
"Gained a few places", the casters openly talk about how the two GOATs got knocked out in to RO4.... Such brazen BS, Serral and Maru regarded as equal GOATs while no mention of Inno…. I don't even like Inno and it makes me fume
Edit: On the topic, yes Rogue has to be in the top 10 now, as weird as that sounds. I'm a Rogue fan but it still feels so wrong to have a player win the Championship go yeah I was planning to take it easy and not play so much since I don't really feel the passion for the game anymore but heh well, guess I won huh
Well, in some cases if people do care they tend to overdo shit. Maybe not caring enough and playing fun builds you actually like delivers more than overpracticing and overthinking stuff. I believe that's what was behind the success of Parting/sOs/Maru. They play how they like, not how the meta dictates(unless, of course, they're dictating the meta )
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I guess all the more "recent" Zergs like Dark, Rogue and Serral have gained a few places
"Gained a few places", the casters openly talk about how the two GOATs got knocked out in to RO4.... Such brazen BS, Serral and Maru regarded as equal GOATs while no mention of Inno…. I don't even like Inno and it makes me fume
Edit: On the topic, yes Rogue has to be in the top 10 now, as weird as that sounds. I'm a Rogue fan but it still feels so wrong to have a player win the Championship go yeah I was planning to take it easy and not play so much since I don't really feel the passion for the game anymore but heh well, guess I won huh
Let the caters hype a bit. After all, that is part of why we pay them
Maru and Serral do make for some good storylines IMO. Specially because they never meet
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I guess all the more "recent" Zergs like Dark, Rogue and Serral have gained a few places
"Gained a few places", the casters openly talk about how the two GOATs got knocked out in to RO4.... Such brazen BS, Serral and Maru regarded as equal GOATs while no mention of Inno…. I don't even like Inno and it makes me fume
Edit: On the topic, yes Rogue has to be in the top 10 now, as weird as that sounds. I'm a Rogue fan but it still feels so wrong to have a player win the Championship go yeah I was planning to take it easy and not play so much since I don't really feel the passion for the game anymore but heh well, guess I won huh
Let the caters hype a bit. After all, that is part of why we pay them
Maru and Serral do make for some good storylines IMO. Specially because they never meet
I understand what you mean but I strongly disagree.
If the casters angle whoever advances as the strongest players ever that just makes SC2 seem cheap and fake. I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that it is these kinds of statements that shape the whole communities opinions. Not every SC2 fan will know the whole history of the game, not everyone will know the complete legacies of every player. The fact is the casters shape the communities perception to a big degree, if you believe majority vote/opinion decides who is the greatest and the commentators literally shape the public opinion.....
Obviously ones or twice is not a problem but believe me if the commentators decided together they would call Maru/Serral the GOAT consequently for a year+ the community at large would think he is the GOAT even if they didn't before.
I don't Think we should let the commentators shape the way we look at the players just because they themselves have an opinion and state it as a fact when it is actually very controversial.
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era
The more I think about it, the more that I believe Rogue was playing the mindset metagame. He looked so shy and humble in al lthe intervirews saying things like "I want maru vs Serrla Finals" "Dark best player" "I am taking this easy" To the point no caster was expecting rogue to perform. And I suspect no other pro players neither. And them BAM! he wins.
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era
Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT.
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I guess all the more "recent" Zergs like Dark, Rogue and Serral have gained a few places
It is worth noting that both Dark and Rogue had success in HotS though obviously not as much as they have recently. That's in comparison to players who only really arrived during the, uh, most balanced period in SC2 history.
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era
So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most.
Interesting criteria. Let's agree to disagree here.
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era
Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT.
Sorry for my language but that comment is bullshit. First, all Serrals WCS are not worth much in terms of achievements. Id say winning 3 WCS is less impressive than winning 1 GSL.
Second, one of the most, if not the most important aspect to dermine the GOAT is to analyze how they performed through different eras, patches and meta. In that category, Maru is the undisputed GOAT. From his time in PRIME, hes been great. That is also why Inno cant be goat imo. He was always insane when Terrans were strong, but struggled when his race did. Serral and Rogue also only started to be great when Zerg were clearly overpowered (even Rogue said it)
Lastly, your metaphor about football shows that either you are clueless about the NFL,or you are clueless about Maru. Maru has won again and again and again at the highest level (4 gsl in a row not enough), won Proleague (one of the most prestigious competition in Korea), SSL, OSL and many more.
Peyton was a god in seasons, but only won the SuperBowl twice, and his win with Denver, even I could have won since the defense did all the job.
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era
Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT.
Rogue wins finals. Cool. But he struggles to get there. Check why everybody is worried about him at RO8 of Code S. Maybe then you understand.
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era
Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT.
Sorry for my language but that comment is bullshit. First, all Serrals WCS are not worth much in terms of achievements. Id say winning 3 WCS is less impressive than winning 1 GSL.
Second, one of the most, if not the most important aspect to dermine the GOAT is to analyze how they performed through different eras, patches and meta. In that category, Maru is the undisputed GOAT. From his time in PRIME, hes been great. That is also why Inno cant be goat imo. He was always insane when Terrans were strong, but struggled when his race did. Serral and Rogue also only started to be great when Zerg were clearly overpowered (even Rogue said it)
Lastly, your metaphor about football shows that either you are clueless about the NFL,or you are clueless about Maru. Maru has won again and again and again at the highest level (4 gsl in a row not enough), won Proleague (one of the most prestigious competition in Korea), SSL, OSL and many more.
Peyton was a god in seasons, but only won the SuperBowl twice, and his win with Denver, even I could have won since the defense did all the job.
sOs and Zest has similar result to Rogue and therefore they cant be above Rogue, but Rogue can be above them? What that doesnt't make any sense. Also saying their results are "similar" is too broad of a statement, Zest has many more trophies than Rogue, argueably just as valuable ones. Zest should be above them both if you ask me, if you want to say they have "similar" results please explain what you mean by that.
While I agree Maru is the GOAT, he is not the undisputed GOAT, because that would mean there is no one else in the discussion, there is other players in the discussion and many posters disagree with Maru being the GOAT. You are underestimating Innovation a lot here, he is the clear number two after Maru and sure he mainly won Championships when terran was strong but he did not "struggle" when terran wasn't great, he struggled during those rare periods when terrans were noneexistent in RO8 and forward. SC2 is not filled with terran weak periods and terran strong periods, there are a lot of time when terran was just inbetween doing "okay" and Inno never delivered when the race was actually weak. Its the opposite of being only performing when the race is strong, he never delivered when the race was weak. Two very different things
People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era
Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT.
Sorry for my language but that comment is bullshit. First, all Serrals WCS are not worth much in terms of achievements. Id say winning 3 WCS is less impressive than winning 1 GSL.
Second, one of the most, if not the most important aspect to dermine the GOAT is to analyze how they performed through different eras, patches and meta. In that category, Maru is the undisputed GOAT. From his time in PRIME, hes been great. That is also why Inno cant be goat imo. He was always insane when Terrans were strong, but struggled when his race did. Serral and Rogue also only started to be great when Zerg were clearly overpowered (even Rogue said it)
Lastly, your metaphor about football shows that either you are clueless about the NFL,or you are clueless about Maru. Maru has won again and again and again at the highest level (4 gsl in a row not enough), won Proleague (one of the most prestigious competition in Korea), SSL, OSL and many more.
Peyton was a god in seasons, but only won the SuperBowl twice, and his win with Denver, even I could have won since the defense did all the job.
sOs and Zest has similar result to Rogue and therefore they cant be above Rogue, but Rogue can be above them? What that doesnt't make any sense. Also saying their results are "similar" is too broad of a statement, Zest has many more trophies than Rogue, argueably just as valuable ones. Zest should be above them both if you ask me, if you want to say they have "similar" results please explain what you mean by that.
While I agree Maru is the GOAT, he is not the undisputed GOAT, because that would mean there is no one else in the discussion, there is other players in the discussion and many posters disagree with Maru being the GOAT. You are underestimating Innovation a lot here, he is the clear number two after Maru and sure he mainly won Championships when terran was strong but he did not "struggle" when terran wasn't great, he struggled during those rare periods when terrans were noneexistent in RO8 and forward. SC2 is not filled with terran weak periods and terran strong periods, there are a lot of time when terran was just inbetween doing "okay" and Inno never delivered when the race was actually weak. Its the opposite of being only performing when the race is strong, he never delivered when the race was weak. Two very different things
you maybe replied to the wrong person in the first part of your comment
As for Inno, he is defenitlly in my top 3 all time, but what really made Maru stood out for me (except his obvious 4 GSL), was during the blink era. I remember raging my life, trying hard to go from top 8 master to GM, and losing almost every TvP to blink.
Then there was that kid, maru, who was always the only terran in round of 8, crushing protoss in GSL and PL. (polt and taeja were the 2 other inspiring players, but they did it at a weaker level).
Maru was the only one being able to beat the imbalance, and even before his 4 gsl wins, I was ready to put him in the top 10 all time. (granted not goat)
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era
Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT.
Sorry for my language but that comment is bullshit. First, all Serrals WCS are not worth much in terms of achievements. Id say winning 3 WCS is less impressive than winning 1 GSL.
Second, one of the most, if not the most important aspect to dermine the GOAT is to analyze how they performed through different eras, patches and meta. In that category, Maru is the undisputed GOAT. From his time in PRIME, hes been great. That is also why Inno cant be goat imo. He was always insane when Terrans were strong, but struggled when his race did. Serral and Rogue also only started to be great when Zerg were clearly overpowered (even Rogue said it)
Lastly, your metaphor about football shows that either you are clueless about the NFL,or you are clueless about Maru. Maru has won again and again and again at the highest level (4 gsl in a row not enough), won Proleague (one of the most prestigious competition in Korea), SSL, OSL and many more.
Peyton was a god in seasons, but only won the SuperBowl twice, and his win with Denver, even I could have won since the defense did all the job.
Maybe you are the clueless here about NFL and SC after all. Maru is clearly superior in terms of talent, just as Peyton was better than Brady. However Maru's 4 GSL (Preparation tourney just like NFL regular season wins) can be compared to Peyton's regular season MVP-s, while Rogue performance when it matters the most is like Tom Brady in the playoff. He simply just wins. Sometimes it is not pretty, sometimes he plays godlike, but he does it anyway. Just like Rogue. Rogue wins the big one aka superbowls = wcs, katowice. Maybe zerg overpowered. But what is he supposed to do about it? Should he apologize? Did ever Brady apologized because he had the best coach in the game by his side for his whole career? Or when the def bailed out him from trouble? He just took advantage of the situation, and delivered, as Rogue did. Not like he had an easy road in any of his championship runs. He beat Maru. Or Maru beat himself, it depends on who you ask... Also nobody can be the the GOAT without results. And compared to the rest of the field, Maru does not have that many tournament wins, or significantly more than the rest of the players. And i am not talking about balance here, and how a 4th place finish counts as a win since he plays terran. There were so many occasions, when he was the superior player and yet still lost. Also, you cannot be the GOAT just based on your results, you need to the best at your race/year/period. And your argument about Maru has a clear flaw. When terran was the best race, Inno dominated, not Maru. Even Byun and TY won WCS and IEM, not Maru. Why is that? Even when terran was strong (your words), he was not undisputed number 1 player at his race, let alone counting all races. Being good in all patches does not mean you are the best. It just simply means he has better/quicker adaptation skills. His qualities as a player carries over patches better than other terrans. But this does not make him the GOAT. I am not saying, Rogue is the GOAT, but he needs to be in the discussion, and not at the 10th place or below. He was the best player for a longer period of time. Check. He won the biggest tournaments. Check. He won across multiple patches. Check. He beat 3-0 the world champ Dark, who happens to play zerg. Check. Last but not least, we simply just cannot dismiss Serrals last two year when we are talkin about GOAT. Even many top Korean players call him the best right now. He is better, than the best zergs in Korea. So you cannot call him a simply patchzerg, since the korean zerg players are playing the same f***ng game, so the playing fields are even.
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
It's not bullshit at all. Winning a GSL in 2014 was objectively much harder than winning a GSL right now. I remember back then there was a CODE A (!) group with Zest, herO, Squirtle and Inno while nowadays we struggle to fill the GSL with 32 competitive players. You can't tell me a GSL win nowadays is worth as much as it was back then just because it has the same name. For Maru this doesn't matter much because his results in the Kespa era were only slightly behind those of Life, Zest and Inno but it's definitely an argument against Serral and Rogue and why I will never see them on the same level as the aforementioned players unless they win like 4-5 more tier 1 tournaments.
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
It's not bullshit at all. Winning a GSL in 2014 was objectively much harder than winning a GSL right now. I remember back then there was a CODE A (!) group with Zest, herO, Squirtle and Inno while nowadays we struggle to fill the GSL with 32 competitive players. You can't tell me a GSL win nowadays is worth as much as it was back then just because it has the same name. For Maru this doesn't matter much because his results in the Kespa era were only slightly behind those of Life, Zest and Inno but it's definitely an argument against Serral and Rogue and why I will never see them on the same level as the aforementioned players unless they win like 4-5 more tier 1 tournaments.
Well it might not be bullshit entirely but I believe most posters mentioning "the hardest era" exaggerate this a lot. More players making the game harder is only true if you actually believe the game is mostly or significantly dependent on luck.
Today, as well as in the "hardest era" there are a handful of players that are doing well or reasonably well every season. The reason for that is that they were obviously better than the other players on average even though upsets do happen, what I am saying is that even if we would have code A today the same players would rise to the occasion and climb out of it anyway which is also (mostly) what happened back in the day.
It is true there was a broader range of "low to middle" class pros, because they were training partners or scouted "talents" but those rarely upset the big fishes anyway. I will also have to mention the seeding, if you reach RO8 in GSL it didn't even matter that there was a code A. You just focus on your thing and prepare for the opponents that come out of there, as long as you reached RO8 there was equal amount of wins to be champion you needed back then as you need now.
I could also argue the opposite, there were so many low-mid tier pros because the game was so young that it was "easy" to be good. The RO16 GSL of today have refined their skills over so many years that it is much harder for anyone new to break in, because NOW is actually the higher skill era. Tbh do you really think it is easier to win GSL against all the experience, cunning and practise that the players that prowl GSL of today have compared to winning against the comparatively inexperienced and unpractised players of 2014?
Yeah yeah I know none of these arguments won't convince anyone, because you all are very set in your opinion. But consider what you are really saying here is that "It was harder to win then because then everyone was equally bad, now there are a smaller group of extremely skilled and practiced players and when we compare other players to them they obviously look weaker.".
Some player have gotten so insanely good that you believe there is a lack to fill a code A, actually there isn't. If code A actually is implemented trust me every single player there will likely be more skilled than the majority in code S of 2014. They will however clearly be weaker than the top dogs of today, because they have just become too good.
On March 02 2020 18:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue now has to be included in a GOAT discussion right? Has to be in the top 10 / top 8 at this point.
I don't think I'd place him above any of Maru, Inno, Life, soO, Stats, Zest, sOs, Dark, Mvp Maybe 10th tied with Classic. He has a few big wins but isn't consistent (not a lot of ro4 finishes compared to other players) and had success mostly in a weaker era
Also I don't think you can place any of these players above Rogue without an argument. His peak was as high as the mentioned player, or even the highest ever below Serral's. I would take Rogues career any day of the week from your list, even he is not as talented as Maru or Dark. I don't want to get into balance discussion, so just based on the facts. Rogue has never lost a final, while winning 2 IEM Katowice, 1 WCS Global final and also a GSL. These are the most competitive tourneys. He performs when the stakes are the highest. That is also a very important quality/talent. So in my eyes, Dark, Stats, soO cannot be placed above Rogue just based on their performances when it matters the most. Zest and sOs are as inconsistent as Rogue, so they definitely cannot be higher, with similar results. Inno however has never won IEM Katowice or WCS Global Finals, but he can be comparable to Rogue in terms of achievements, but his peak was never that high as Maru's or Darks. We need to appreciate and enjoy his longevity, however this quality alone does not make him the GOAT. Mvp is in between Rogue and Inno in terms of achievements, peak and longevity, but most of his results came in a much different era. Maru is the most talented from the list i think, however he underperforms too many times to call him the GOAT. He is the Peyton Manning of the SC2, while Rogue is Tom Brady. Who must not be named career was too short to call him the GOAT.
Sorry for my language but that comment is bullshit. First, all Serrals WCS are not worth much in terms of achievements. Id say winning 3 WCS is less impressive than winning 1 GSL.
Second, one of the most, if not the most important aspect to dermine the GOAT is to analyze how they performed through different eras, patches and meta. In that category, Maru is the undisputed GOAT. From his time in PRIME, hes been great. That is also why Inno cant be goat imo. He was always insane when Terrans were strong, but struggled when his race did. Serral and Rogue also only started to be great when Zerg were clearly overpowered (even Rogue said it)
Lastly, your metaphor about football shows that either you are clueless about the NFL,or you are clueless about Maru. Maru has won again and again and again at the highest level (4 gsl in a row not enough), won Proleague (one of the most prestigious competition in Korea), SSL, OSL and many more.
Peyton was a god in seasons, but only won the SuperBowl twice, and his win with Denver, even I could have won since the defense did all the job.
Maybe you are the clueless here about NFL and SC after all. Maru is clearly superior in terms of talent, just as Peyton was better than Brady. However Maru's 4 GSL (Preparation tourney just like NFL regular season wins) can be compared to Peyton's regular season MVP-s, while Rogue performance when it matters the most is like Tom Brady in the playoff. He simply just wins. Sometimes it is not pretty, sometimes he plays godlike, but he does it anyway. Just like Rogue. Rogue wins the big one aka superbowls = wcs, katowice. Maybe zerg overpowered. But what is he supposed to do about it? Should he apologize? Did ever Brady apologized because he had the best coach in the game by his side for his whole career? Or when the def bailed out him from trouble? He just took advantage of the situation, and delivered, as Rogue did. Not like he had an easy road in any of his championship runs. He beat Maru. Or Maru beat himself, it depends on who you ask... Also nobody can be the the GOAT without results. And compared to the rest of the field, Maru does not have that many tournament wins, or significantly more than the rest of the players. And i am not talking about balance here, and how a 4th place finish counts as a win since he plays terran. There were so many occasions, when he was the superior player and yet still lost. Also, you cannot be the GOAT just based on your results, you need to the best at your race/year/period. And your argument about Maru has a clear flaw. When terran was the best race, Inno dominated, not Maru. Even Byun and TY won WCS and IEM, not Maru. Why is that? Even when terran was strong (your words), he was not undisputed number 1 player at his race, let alone counting all races. Being good in all patches does not mean you are the best. It just simply means he has better/quicker adaptation skills. His qualities as a player carries over patches better than other terrans. But this does not make him the GOAT. I am not saying, Rogue is the GOAT, but he needs to be in the discussion, and not at the 10th place or below. He was the best player for a longer period of time. Check. He won the biggest tournaments. Check. He won across multiple patches. Check. He beat 3-0 the world champ Dark, who happens to play zerg. Check. Last but not least, we simply just cannot dismiss Serrals last two year when we are talkin about GOAT. Even many top Korean players call him the best right now. He is better, than the best zergs in Korea. So you cannot call him a simply patchzerg, since the korean zerg players are playing the same f***ng game, so the playing fields are even.
Lol, you are an idiot and theres no point in arguing with you. You are comparing winning GSL with a regular NFL season, really? Thats the best thing you came up with? You dont win GSL (and multiple other tournaments) by being a ''choker'' like peyton, you do it by being one of the best like Brady. Comparing Rogue to Brady doesnt make sense. Rogue won when his race was on top. He was infamous for never being able to make it past round of 8 before. That really reminds you of Brady?
Honestly dont bother answering this. You have shown your lack of sc2 knowledge and I will certainly not bother arguing with someone whos clearly clueless on the topic.
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
Progamers all have their own peak time. Got that?
So you are saying you believe that past Inno and Zest in their "peak" would be able to defeat themselves right now because they were better before? That is simply not true the players are at a much higher level now than before which is why new players are seen as not good enough, because most fo them havent had 6 years of fulltime progaming sc2. Most of them just don't seem able to catch up.
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
Your logic has so many flaws. First of all you cannot compare skill level across different period. For exp: Mongol was one of the greatest empire in history and their calvary would easily be destroyed by any modern army if being put in today's world. Inno, Zest and Life were so great because they dominated in the most competitive era when there were so many champion contenders. If you take out any of Inno, Zest, Life on their prime, there were more than dozen of players who could win premier. Look at the current scene, who can win premier league beside the three strongest Zerg and possibly 1 Terran and 1 Protoss?
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
Your logic has so many flaws. First of all you cannot compare skill level across different period. For exp: Mongol was one of the greatest empire in history and their calvary would easily be destroyed by any modern army if being put in today's world. Inno, Zest and Life were so great because they dominated in the most competitive era when there were so many champion contenders. If you take out any of Inno, Zest, Life on their prime, there were more than dozen of players who could win premier. Look at the current scene, who can win premier league beside the three strongest Zerg and possibly 1 Terran and 1 Protoss?
So you argue back then was the most competitive because you had 3 players "dominate" but now it's not competitive because you have ONLY 5 players "dominate".... wait what?
EDIT: Also, that metaphor... dude How about using chess as a metaphor or sth? Did Chess evolve in the last 10 years? Are the best Chess players 10 years ago still the best (minus any AI's obviously)?
The "most competetive era" thing is most likely an illusion. Yes, we had more top pro players back then. But to maintain a certain skill level or to even get better, only requires a certain amount of competition. While the situation in Korea is worrying me, it still has enough great players to let them become better. This also is the opinion of every Pro i heard/read being asked about this in an interview: we are better players now than we were before. As a top player it may have been harder to win something in 2013 just because there were more players on your level, but this doesn't mean that the champions of that time were better players. They weren't. Also one underestimates easily how much of a factor the GSL system with up&down matches and such was back then. It was way harder to get into CodeS back then which gave quite some bad performing CodeS-regulars 2nd and 3rd chances to not fall out of CodeS. Another point is: from Ro16 on the competition is still as tough as it always has been. One could argue about Ro32 but I think that the necessity of winning 5 matches vs top players to win a GSL is not an easier feat today than in the socalled "most competetive era".
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
Your logic has so many flaws. First of all you cannot compare skill level across different period. For exp: Mongol was one of the greatest empire in history and their calvary would easily be destroyed by any modern army if being put in today's world. Inno, Zest and Life were so great because they dominated in the most competitive era when there were so many champion contenders. If you take out any of Inno, Zest, Life on their prime, there were more than dozen of players who could win premier. Look at the current scene, who can win premier league beside the three strongest Zerg and possibly 1 Terran and 1 Protoss?
So you argue back then was the most competitive because you had 3 players "dominate" but now it's not competitive because you have ONLY 5 players "dominate".... wait what?
EDIT: Also, that metaphor... dude How about using chess as a metaphor or sth? Did Chess evolve in the last 10 years? Are the best Chess players 10 years ago still the best (minus any AI's obviously)?
How long have you been watching the game competitively mate? In Kespa era there were countless amount of players who could take series off the champion contenders and the top (Inno/Life/Zest) had to work so hard to maintain the positions, there was no back to back GSL champion and even the code A was still competitive. Team houses helped analyzing gameplay and finding counter to any player. The fact that they won that many titles over such that many strong players was truly impressive. Now, Rogue, Serral, Dark are the only ones that can win tourney, put they any where in the bracket you want and they'd still meet in the finals. The player pool is now tiny as hell. Chess is not comparable to Starcraft. This video game is about mechanic skill and biological peak just as it's about strategies.
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
It's not bullshit at all. Winning a GSL in 2014 was objectively much harder than winning a GSL right now. I remember back then there was a CODE A (!) group with Zest, herO, Squirtle and Inno while nowadays we struggle to fill the GSL with 32 competitive players. You can't tell me a GSL win nowadays is worth as much as it was back then just because it has the same name. For Maru this doesn't matter much because his results in the Kespa era were only slightly behind those of Life, Zest and Inno but it's definitely an argument against Serral and Rogue and why I will never see them on the same level as the aforementioned players unless they win like 4-5 more tier 1 tournaments.
Well it might not be bullshit entirely but I believe most posters mentioning "the hardest era" exaggerate this a lot. More players making the game harder is only true if you actually believe the game is mostly or significantly dependent on luck.
Today, as well as in the "hardest era" there are a handful of players that are doing well or reasonably well every season. The reason for that is that they were obviously better than the other players on average even though upsets do happen, what I am saying is that even if we would have code A today the same players would rise to the occasion and climb out of it anyway which is also (mostly) what happened back in the day.
It is true there was a broader range of "low to middle" class pros, because they were training partners or scouted "talents" but those rarely upset the big fishes anyway. I will also have to mention the seeding, if you reach RO8 in GSL it didn't even matter that there was a code A. You just focus on your thing and prepare for the opponents that come out of there, as long as you reached RO8 there was equal amount of wins to be champion you needed back then as you need now.
I could also argue the opposite, there were so many low-mid tier pros because the game was so young that it was "easy" to be good. The RO16 GSL of today have refined their skills over so many years that it is much harder for anyone new to break in, because NOW is actually the higher skill era. Tbh do you really think it is easier to win GSL against all the experience, cunning and practise that the players that prowl GSL of today have compared to winning against the comparatively inexperienced and unpractised players of 2014?
Yeah yeah I know none of these arguments won't convince anyone, because you all are very set in your opinion. But consider what you are really saying here is that "It was harder to win then because then everyone was equally bad, now there are a smaller group of extremely skilled and practiced players and when we compare other players to them they obviously look weaker.".
Some player have gotten so insanely good that you believe there is a lack to fill a code A, actually there isn't. If code A actually is implemented trust me every single player there will likely be more skilled than the majority in code S of 2014. They will however clearly be weaker than the top dogs of today, because they have just become too good.
We are talking about 2014 here, not about 2010/11. The players back then were already extremely refined and imo more skilled than today because they were younger and today a lot of players have lost their motivation and don't practice as hard anymore.
On March 03 2020 22:43 Charoisaur wrote: The players back then were already extremely refined and imo more skilled than today because they were younger.
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
Your logic has so many flaws. First of all you cannot compare skill level across different period. For exp: Mongol was one of the greatest empire in history and their calvary would easily be destroyed by any modern army if being put in today's world. Inno, Zest and Life were so great because they dominated in the most competitive era when there were so many champion contenders. If you take out any of Inno, Zest, Life on their prime, there were more than dozen of players who could win premier. Look at the current scene, who can win premier league beside the three strongest Zerg and possibly 1 Terran and 1 Protoss?
So you argue back then was the most competitive because you had 3 players "dominate" but now it's not competitive because you have ONLY 5 players "dominate".... wait what?
EDIT: Also, that metaphor... dude How about using chess as a metaphor or sth? Did Chess evolve in the last 10 years? Are the best Chess players 10 years ago still the best (minus any AI's obviously)?
How long have you been watching the game competitively mate? In Kespa era there were countless amount of players who could take series off the champion contenders and the top (Inno/Life/Zest) had to work so hard to maintain the positions, there was no back to back GSL champion and even the code A was still competitive. Team houses helped analyzing gameplay and finding counter to any player. The fact that they won that many titles over such that many strong players was truly impressive. Now, Rogue, Serral, Dark are the only ones that can win tourney, put they any where in the bracket you want and they'd still meet in the finals. The player pool is now tiny as hell. Chess is not comparable to Starcraft. This video game is about mechanic skill and biological peak just as it's about strategies.
So it's okay to compare Starcraft to the mongolian empire but not to chess. Ok cool
Honestly , the only point I can only give to Kespa era above now is the amount of practice and maybe motivation (for some players). On the other hand, maybe people like Inno are not motivated. But there are still a lot of players hungry. During Kespa they practised 12+ hours a day, yet we have Serral who does like 6+ hours of playing and still wins
We'll never find out I guess. We can only look forward to 3 more awesome years of Starcraft and hope that damn virus gets stopped soon
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
Your logic has so many flaws. First of all you cannot compare skill level across different period. For exp: Mongol was one of the greatest empire in history and their calvary would easily be destroyed by any modern army if being put in today's world. Inno, Zest and Life were so great because they dominated in the most competitive era when there were so many champion contenders. If you take out any of Inno, Zest, Life on their prime, there were more than dozen of players who could win premier. Look at the current scene, who can win premier league beside the three strongest Zerg and possibly 1 Terran and 1 Protoss?
So you argue back then was the most competitive because you had 3 players "dominate" but now it's not competitive because you have ONLY 5 players "dominate".... wait what?
EDIT: Also, that metaphor... dude How about using chess as a metaphor or sth? Did Chess evolve in the last 10 years? Are the best Chess players 10 years ago still the best (minus any AI's obviously)?
How long have you been watching the game competitively mate? In Kespa era there were countless amount of players who could take series off the champion contenders and the top (Inno/Life/Zest) had to work so hard to maintain the positions, there was no back to back GSL champion and even the code A was still competitive. Team houses helped analyzing gameplay and finding counter to any player. The fact that they won that many titles over such that many strong players was truly impressive. Now, Rogue, Serral, Dark are the only ones that can win tourney, put they any where in the bracket you want and they'd still meet in the finals. The player pool is now tiny as hell. Chess is not comparable to Starcraft. This video game is about mechanic skill and biological peak just as it's about strategies.
During Kespa they practised 12+ hours a day, yet we have Serral who does like 6+ hours of playing and still wins
On March 03 2020 01:38 parksonsc wrote: People are starting to underestimate Innovation just because he's not smashing everyone anymore. His peak was as high as anyone else if not above. Remember his style is macro oriented and positioning which has no weakness if executes perfectly, that's what he did in his peak. He made anyone else look surprisingly bad back then. He, among all the GOAT contenders, was dominating much longer in the Kespa era, THE MOST COMPETITIVE ERA of SC2, do not argue with me on this if you watched the game from the beginning. To me only people who dominate in such era can be considered GOAT, and they are Inno, Life and Zest. From the three obviously Inno is the best in terms of achievement. Maru was also very good back then but his Kespa success was no where near Innovaion's.
It is kinda funny, to say Zest is greater than Maru because he got his result during Kespa era. So your "greatest of all time player" is great because he got the result when it was the most competitive. Yet for some reason he has (up until this IEM) been a straight up average player for years.
So Marus result doesn't matter because he got them in a time when the competition was so easy that the greater player Zest failed to get any result at all. Seriously, if your Innovation and Zest were so much greater they would be the ones winning everything in this "easy" era, they are not.
The most competetive era is bullshit when judging results and GOATs. An equally bullshit argument would be if I tried to argue that any results after lotv doesn't matter. Hey WoL and HotS was the most competetive era, lotv dumbed down the economy, made creepspreading faster and easier, inject larva stackable, removed mules for terran ease (yes they reverted it pretty fast though) and made chronoboost crazy easy, protoss got recall and so on... Really the game was much too easy after lotv for the results to really count, pros that do well in lotv are simply less skilled than players that did well in wol and hots....
Its bullshit, any of these "most competetive era" arguments doesn't understand how winning works, only one player can win, only one player can be the best player. There are still a lot of players playing sc2.
You realize they are not the same age at all right? Some are past their prime and can still put up good results, some are in their prime. Younger INno would fare better today than actual INno, that’s for sure Maru still GOAT because 4 GSL in a row across patches is unprecedented and probably can’t be done again, even the zergs couldn’t do it on last year patch (+ his previous achievements of course)
I think we are of different opinions in regards to how important age is in sc2, you make it sounds players "not in their prime" meaning old generally are worse at the game than younger players. That simply isn't true, there are way too many of the "some are past their prime can still put up good result" for that to be true, Maru is basically the only korean player in "prime" years. Stats and Zest 27, Rogue and Innovation 26, Classic is 28, TY 25, Dark 24.
So basically all the best players in the world besides Maru and Serral are "past their prime", if age really mattered as much as you say it would be the other way around. There would two players above 22 and the rest would be young but that is not how the RO8 in GSL looks at all. Younger players are breaking through and improving but just being faster is not enough.
Don't forget what Stephano said, after making his comeback he failed to get any results and was asked if he had gotten rusty after a lengthy break. He just answered no, he puts much more effort into SC2 now than he ever did when he got his great success but cant seem to reach the same level because everyone have improved as such a fast pace.
Younger Inno wouldn't even get into RO32 current GSL, the level is much much higher than before, not because of there being more players but because the same players have continued to improve their game for years. For a progamer there are much more important skills than just youth and reaction time. Clutch factor, controlling nerves on the stage, planning longer series, making your own builds. Many things are built over years of training. Sure if Inno somehow could warp his current skills into his younger body he would be better but that is not possible. We cant invest many years into a craft and then still keep our youth.
Your logic has so many flaws. First of all you cannot compare skill level across different period. For exp: Mongol was one of the greatest empire in history and their calvary would easily be destroyed by any modern army if being put in today's world. Inno, Zest and Life were so great because they dominated in the most competitive era when there were so many champion contenders. If you take out any of Inno, Zest, Life on their prime, there were more than dozen of players who could win premier. Look at the current scene, who can win premier league beside the three strongest Zerg and possibly 1 Terran and 1 Protoss?
So you argue back then was the most competitive because you had 3 players "dominate" but now it's not competitive because you have ONLY 5 players "dominate".... wait what?
EDIT: Also, that metaphor... dude How about using chess as a metaphor or sth? Did Chess evolve in the last 10 years? Are the best Chess players 10 years ago still the best (minus any AI's obviously)?
How long have you been watching the game competitively mate? In Kespa era there were countless amount of players who could take series off the champion contenders and the top (Inno/Life/Zest) had to work so hard to maintain the positions, there was no back to back GSL champion and even the code A was still competitive. Team houses helped analyzing gameplay and finding counter to any player. The fact that they won that many titles over such that many strong players was truly impressive. Now, Rogue, Serral, Dark are the only ones that can win tourney, put they any where in the bracket you want and they'd still meet in the finals. The player pool is now tiny as hell. Chess is not comparable to Starcraft. This video game is about mechanic skill and biological peak just as it's about strategies.
So it's okay to compare Starcraft to the mongolian empire but not to chess. Ok cool
Honestly , the only point I can only give to Kespa era above now is the amount of practice and maybe motivation (for some players). On the other hand, maybe people like Inno are not motivated. But there are still a lot of players hungry. During Kespa they practised 12+ hours a day, yet we have Serral who does like 6+ hours of playing and still wins
We'll never find out I guess. We can only look forward to 3 more awesome years of Starcraft and hope that damn virus gets stopped soon
Can you source the 12 hours|?
From the few interviews/videos I saw it appears that KeSPA teams were not doing such things. They forced players to eat away from PC, to have some sport regime etc. But maybe it was just some teams/coaches(still remember the interview of the coach Park in EG). Practicing 12h a day isn't nowhere near healthy and doesn't seem fit for this teams.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
That explains why those foreigners dominated the inefficiently practicing koreans in all those tournaments.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
That explains why those foreigners dominated the inefficiently practicing koreans in all those tournaments.
Nah, that's because they're born in Korea. Check the region lock. It doesn't matter what skill you have, only what's your country of origin!
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
That explains why those foreigners dominated the inefficiently practicing koreans in all those tournaments.
They never said, that korean training environment were inefficient as a whole. Of course living in a team house, having social control to actual practice a lot, having team partners to do custom games with and to discuss strategies and buildorders and such is an huge advantage. Also having so many players in such a small region (compared to everywhere else) is a huge bonus factor, making this region very competetive. But this doesn't mean that there aren't details which were problematic and if changed could've made the practice even more efficient. Otherwise something like Byun winning GSL and WCS could never have happened. Also it would be hard to explain why Serral is/was able to compete with the Jinair guys. Taeja is another example - being competetive in your socalled "most competetive era" despite not being in team houses for a very long time. Problem with korean practive regimen was: it wasn't individually refined for each player with his individual needs and thus was bound to hinder some players from getting even better.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
It's also a Starcraft thing apparently. There's an interview out there of Iloveoov when he became the coach of the Afreeca Freecs lol team after leaving SKT and he saw that the lol team didn't practice enough and he decided to sign more practice partner and change the way practice was structured to make his team put in more hours than anyone else. There was something along the lines of him saying that it was normal for Starcraft player to put in 10-11 hours everyday then more when there was an event coming up, but that his lol team normally only put in 8ish hours before he came. His philosophy was that players shouldn't think about anything else than the game
His team has pretty good success so apparently there's some truth to that.
Edit: Here's the quote: "You just told me that 13 hours of practice is impressive. My immediate reaction is "Isn't that the norm?"" iloveoov said when we discuss an anecdote of a former Starcraft II pro practicing upwards of 13 hours a day.
It's a system that asks a lot of its players. Kim "Cure" Doh Wook explained that well, saying "The team house promotes 8.5 hours of practice a day, and I keep to that. Also, I do about 3 hours of additional practice on my own."
Maybe I can look up some more when I'm at home
EDIT: There are some video interviews about practice regiment but I can't watch them at work :/
Would be nice to source this, because I am under the impression what you cited - 8,5h of work , the rest is the players choice to be the bestest everest. BTW part of the practice was game analysis, strategy preparation and shit, so it wasn't just massing games. Not sure if Serral counts his thinking about the game as practice
I remember some Foreigners who went to Korea critisizing the Teamhouse practice regimen as not very efficient. To much time invested in pure practice, not enough breaks, not enough physical and psychological balance. But that may have changed over time.
It's also a Starcraft thing apparently. There's an interview out there of Iloveoov when he became the coach of the Afreeca Freecs lol team after leaving SKT and he saw that the lol team didn't practice enough and he decided to sign more practice partner and change the way practice was structured to make his team put in more hours than anyone else. There was something along the lines of him saying that it was normal for Starcraft player to put in 10-11 hours everyday then more when there was an event coming up, but that his lol team normally only put in 8ish hours before he came. His philosophy was that players shouldn't think about anything else than the game
His team has pretty good success so apparently there's some truth to that.
Edit: Here's the quote: "You just told me that 13 hours of practice is impressive. My immediate reaction is "Isn't that the norm?"" iloveoov said when we discuss an anecdote of a former Starcraft II pro practicing upwards of 13 hours a day.
That's interesting. Bust still - it doesn't mean that more practice automatically is the best way to get better. It will help of course, but perhaps investing the time differently could've greater effect. Also while Afreeca Freecs are quite successful they aren't the top dogs of anything. Quite some nonkorean teams are more successful - but I don't know anything about their practice, of course.
On March 02 2020 01:47 Ej_ wrote: It is a very peculiar talent of Rogue to make every final he particilates in shit. And he wins them too!
It's like he saw what soO did and thought "Imagine that but winning" :D
Rogue is the exact opposite of soO, he seems to be working less than everyone else, stomp all of his final and he pretty much has no fans, and someday he's going to finally lose a final and everyone will be ecstatic lol.
Not if you've watch Rogue's sexyboi plays during ProLeague days. I still remember Wolf saying "Balls of Iron" when he went proxy hatch inside Classic (then SSL Champion) main at matchpoint in group decider match:
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/ept2020_21/eptbanner734.jpg)
Rogue became the first player in StarCraft II history to imprint his name on the IEM Katowice championship trophy twice, winning a decisive 4-1 victory over 
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iuYZ0Yv.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://preview.redd.it/05i86eenm6k41.png?width=1007&auto=webp&s=6eac6d359fb5dd148bd20a1782b17b6a7d1429a5)
