EPT4.11.0 Patch - Major balance changes, Mengsk Commander - P…
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franzji
United States583 Posts
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ilax30
720 Posts
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On November 29 2019 10:41 ilax30 wrote: Have people actually played with the new chargelots? Soo good roaches cant kite them off creep them. Harstem even said in one of his pre hsc streams that he told the balance team they are a bit too good now. People really like to overreact yes they are good in those cases, but in other cases they have gotten seriously nerfed, like later in the game when the zealots die very fast after they hit their "charge" +damage boost vs. terran. I would say it's still a nerf. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Instead, they made zealots just slow enough to be bad and just weak enough to call it a nerf. I hope they increase the lot speed a little more. Or give it more damage. The adept is a great concept unit ... but it is a gimmick unit and ... protoss deserve better. Imo. I play zerg, I just want my opponents to have a good, fair and enjoyable opportunity to win games. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On November 29 2019 10:41 ilax30 wrote: Have people actually played with the new chargelots? Soo good roaches cant kite them off creep them. Harstem even said in one of his pre hsc streams that he told the balance team they are a bit too good now. People really like to overreact Yeah, that's what I meant when I said they seemed good versus zerg from the bit I've seen on stream and played. If roaches aren't on creep the zerg has to stutter step micro them now to kill the zealots or the roaches will just die as they try to retreat. Just retreating doesn't cut it because the zealots are faster now, even with roach speed when off creep.They're also quite good against ravagers since ravagers are slower. They certainly seem to make roach/ravager busts on the third much bigger of a risk that they previously were as retreating is much harder, especially with the ravagers. I've already had a game where the zerg did a ravager bust, lost everything but the ravagers, tried to retreat with their ravagers, and lost all of the ravagers to zealots. It was pretty satisfying. They also are significantly better against hydras with or without speed off creep. The zerg player now has to be way more careful with their banelings when doing a hydra/ling/bane all-in because of the banelings gets wasted on an archons or immortals, the zealots will be much more likely to clean up the rest of the units before the zerg can retreat back to creep. If there isn't a critical mass of hydras, they're borderline bad against zealots now if they don't have other units with them to keep the zealots away. But then against terran it's a completely different story so it's hard to say overall at this point if they're too good or not. | ||
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papapanda
Taiwan326 Posts
On November 29 2019 12:03 youngjiddle wrote: yes they are good in those cases, but in other cases they have gotten seriously nerfed, like later in the game when the zealots die very fast after they hit their "charge" +damage boost vs. terran. I would say it's still a nerf. What changes make zealots less tanky vs terran? Your statement is grammatically chaotic so I'm not quite sure what you mean with all the "they's", but I'm assuming you are making a joke about stim since zealot's have no damage boost. Are you referencing the 21 second reduction in stim upgrade time (from Patch 4.10.1) as "seriously nerf[ing]" zealots specifically? A valid complaint is zealots not being able to deal extra burst damage with charge, but they still fulfill their role as a front line tank. | ||
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Slydie
1923 Posts
On November 29 2019 15:39 papapanda wrote: What changes make zealots less tanky vs terran? Your statement is grammatically chaotic so I'm not quite sure what you mean with all the "they's", but I'm assuming you are making a joke about stim since zealot's have no damage boost. Are you referencing the 21 second reduction in stim upgrade time (from Patch 4.10.1) as "seriously nerf[ing]" zealots specifically? A valid complaint is zealots not being able to deal extra burst damage with charge, but they still fulfill their role as a front line tank. They are not less tanky, but I think he meant they initially off kill less bio quickly now to reduce the DPS of the bioball. I guess you could consider lategame zealots one-hit-wonders lategame, as they would often not survive after their initial charge attack. Speed of units is very important in SC2. My feeling is that the charge change will be considered a fair trade or buff when everything is said and done. | ||
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LHK
204 Posts
On November 29 2019 17:52 Slydie wrote: They are not less tanky, but I think he meant they initially off kill less bio quickly now to reduce the DPS of the bioball. I guess you could consider lategame zealots one-hit-wonders lategame, as they would often not survive after their initial charge attack. Speed of units is very important in SC2. My feeling is that the charge change will be considered a fair trade or buff when everything is said and done. I believe they want the goal of Zealots to be more similar to BW - where more surface area = more damage. Splitting / Flanking etc being necessary to maximize the unit. Where before, the charge in would kill say 5% of the bio-ball on engage (cos insta-gibbing marines), now in order to get value you have to have surface area and/or flanking similar to lings. Will it work in practice? Not super sure on that, but that to me seems like the goal. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On November 30 2019 02:32 washikie wrote: I for one am quite enjoying this patch. The changes they made have done a lot to improve ballance. I think I might enjoy a few more radical changes that shake up late game. But overall this was good. I agree that this patch is a major improvement. Zealot change improved TvP and Nydus went from OP to strong. The only thing I do not like is that TvT is still about who can mass the most vikings. Thors do absolutely nothing against vikings or liberators. Basically if I see my opponent trying to mix in Thors instead of just massing more vikings, it is a free win, given similar skill level. | ||
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BabelFish1
186 Posts
On November 29 2019 18:06 LHK wrote: I believe they want the goal of Zealots to be more similar to BW - where more surface area = more damage. Splitting / Flanking etc being necessary to maximize the unit. Where before, the charge in would kill say 5% of the bio-ball on engage (cos insta-gibbing marines), now in order to get value you have to have surface area and/or flanking similar to lings. Will it work in practice? Not super sure on that, but that to me seems like the goal. Problem with this idea is that Terran bio has waaaaay too much dps density for that to ever work. You'd have to buff the crap out of Zealot health or shields, like by 50, for that dynamic to work and I'm pretty sure that would break PvZ. Z wouldn't be able to trade with those Zealots early on. I really, really think the balance team should revert their Zealot and Adept ideas. They're poorly thought through and have hilarious implementation. I also hope that they really, really consider the impacts of their changes going forward because these changes indicate to me that they've no clue what they're doing when it comes to Protoss. | ||
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BabelFish1
186 Posts
On November 30 2019 02:57 MockHamill wrote: I agree that this patch is a major improvement. Zealot change improved TvP and Nydus went from OP to strong. The only thing I do not like is that TvT is still about who can mass the most vikings. Thors do absolutely nothing against vikings or liberators. Basically if I see my opponent trying to mix in Thors instead of just massing more vikings, it is a free win, given similar skill level. The heck? The Zealot is a total unmitigated failure in TvP after the Charge nerf. Chargelots cannot contest bio now and that was a fairly important dynamic. | ||
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Slydie
1923 Posts
On November 30 2019 03:40 BabelFish1 wrote: The heck? The Zealot is a total unmitigated failure in TvP after the Charge nerf. Chargelots cannot contest bio now and that was a fairly important dynamic. Well, PvT had a fantastic overall winrate at homestory cup, which was played on the patch, and both Terran and Protoss pros stated they think the new Zealot is too strong. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25622 Posts
On November 30 2019 04:12 Slydie wrote: Well, PvT had a fantastic overall winrate at homestory cup, which was played on the patch, and both Terran and Protoss pros stated they think the new Zealot is too strong. Which pros said that? While not absolute consensus most of what I’ve heard (from P) is that new Zealot is pretty bad for vT in certain aspects, although runbys are good and that the extra mobility is a good tool vZ We’ll see how it settles down. My instinct would be that the loss of the bonus damage will be bad for the vT matchup, but good for the vZ (looking at it as a neutral not as a P here as before) vT I think the burst damage is really important and even with the extra speed Zealots aren’t fast enough to compensate entirely via increased micro ability. vZ, while certainly nice the unit and composition interactions mean I don’t think the bonus damage is as critical, and the increased mobility helps P in other ways like sharking around and clearing creep. Plus the nerf neuters some of the sillier early chargelot Immortal timings too which I’m not really a fan of as a player or a viewer | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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BabelFish1
186 Posts
On November 30 2019 04:12 Slydie wrote: Well, PvT had a fantastic overall winrate at homestory cup, which was played on the patch, and both Terran and Protoss pros stated they think the new Zealot is too strong. I'm not the kind of guy to just accept what pros say without analysis. If I did, then I'd agree with Special that ObSeRvErS ArE ToO StRoNg. As one example of insane pro bias and why critical thought is very important. Homestory cup wasn't a good indicator of anything. New patch, small sample size and it's the 1st tournament on the new patch. The meta has absolutely zero refinement right now. But on paper and in practice, Zealots are bad vs bio now. Very, very bad and it's because without the +8 damage on charge, they don't kill as fast which means they have to tank more. Even double forge chrono'd constantly doesn't make up for that loss. In PvZ it's more of a redesign though. Not entirely sure how the speed works out vs Roaches but Roaches off creep could kite before whereas they can't now so it probably ends up being about the same. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On November 30 2019 05:09 BabelFish1 wrote: I'm not the kind of guy to just accept what pros say without analysis. If I did, then I'd agree with Special that ObSeRvErS ArE ToO StRoNg. As one example of insane pro bias and why critical thought is very important. Homestory cup wasn't a good indicator of anything. New patch, small sample size and it's the 1st tournament on the new patch. The meta has absolutely zero refinement right now. But on paper and in practice, Zealots are bad vs bio now. Very, very bad and it's because without the +8 damage on charge, they don't kill as fast which means they have to tank more. Even double forge chrono'd constantly doesn't make up for that loss. In PvZ it's more of a redesign though. Not entirely sure how the speed works out vs Roaches but Roaches off creep could kite before whereas they can't now so it probably ends up being about the same. New Zealot is superstrong now. The -8 damage dont do much. Even 20 Zealots charging will do 160 dmg = 1 marine 1 marauder...but them being able to runby a lot faster, pull back faster means stronger lategame zealots and also forcing out just 1 more stim out of Terran because stimmed bio is only slightly faster now is WAY more damage than the +8. Overall more speedy zealots ist just insane vs any Z unit offcreep and vs stimmed bio and lategame vs all races. Lets see if it stays as speedy in the next months. | ||
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BabelFish1
186 Posts
On November 30 2019 05:52 Decendos wrote: New Zealot is superstrong now. The -8 damage dont do much. Even 20 Zealots charging will do 160 dmg = 1 marine 1 marauder...but them being able to runby a lot faster, pull back faster means stronger lategame zealots and also forcing out just 1 more stim out of Terran because stimmed bio is only slightly faster now is WAY more damage than the +8. Overall more speedy zealots ist just insane vs any Z unit offcreep and vs stimmed bio and lategame vs all races. Lets see if it stays as speedy in the next months. I'll give it more of a try later on, maybe I'm just not doing something right but for my preferred opener, which is fast charge on 1 gas and a fast 3rd before grabbing 3 additional gas, it's nowhere near as good. Terran 2 base allins just shred the chargelots without that +8 damage during that timing window. Especially if it involves bio. | ||
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Slydie
1923 Posts
On November 30 2019 05:09 BabelFish1 wrote: I'm not the kind of guy to just accept what pros say without analysis. If I did, then I'd agree with Special that ObSeRvErS ArE ToO StRoNg. As one example of insane pro bias and why critical thought is very important. Homestory cup wasn't a good indicator of anything. New patch, small sample size and it's the 1st tournament on the new patch. The meta has absolutely zero refinement right now. But on paper and in practice, Zealots are bad vs bio now. Very, very bad and it's because without the +8 damage on charge, they don't kill as fast which means they have to tank more. Even double forge chrono'd constantly doesn't make up for that loss. In PvZ it's more of a redesign though. Not entirely sure how the speed works out vs Roaches but Roaches off creep could kite before whereas they can't now so it probably ends up being about the same. It was early of the patch, but I think the PvT overall winrate was the best of the tournament, way in th 60s, so it should be a good indicator, even considering the Korean P vs European T matchups. Some individual winrates in PvT: Parting: 4-3 Showtime: 5-4 MaNa: 9-3 Trap: 12-4 Stats: 4-0 Zest: 4-0 On the flipside, Cure, Innovation and uThermal went 5-1, 5-0 and 7-4 respectively, but Clem, who is famous for being one of the best TvP players in Europe, recently beating MaNa in nationwars, only managed a 5-4 record, and solid players like souL and Marinelord did not win a TvP. As for the pros, I have heard Harstem, Demuslim and Heromarine state that they think the new zealots are very strong after the patch released, which are pretty much all the ones I have heard talk about the issue lately. Yes, the sample sizes could have been bigger, but it is still a lot more data and qualified opinions than what you came up with. I think what they lose in dps in main fights is more than made up for by a massive improvement as a catchup, flanking, runby and harassment unit. | ||
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Slydie
1923 Posts
On November 30 2019 08:29 Slydie wrote: It was early of the patch, but I think the PvT overall winrate was the best of the tournament, way in th 60s, so it should be a good indicator, even considering the Korean P vs European T matchups. Some individual winrates in PvT: Parting: 4-3 Showtime: 5-4 MaNa: 9-3 Trap: 12-4 Stats: 4-0 Zest: 4-0 On the flipside, Cure, Innovation and uThermal went 5-1, 5-0 and 7-4 respectively, but Clem, who is famous for being one of the best TvP players in Europe, recently beating MaNa in nationwars, only managed a 5-4 record, and solid players like souL and Marinelord did not win a TvP. As for the pros, I have heard Harstem, Demuslim and Heromarine state that they think the new zealots are very strong after the patch released, which are pretty much all the ones I have heard talk about the issue lately. Yes, the sample sizes could have been bigger, but it is still a lot more data and qualified opinions than what you came up with. I think what they lose in dps in main fights is more than made up for by a massive improvement as a catchup, flanking, runby and harassment unit. The last game I saw on stream, a slightly distracted Heromarine got owned by a charge/warp prism plays right as he was about to move out for his 2-base push. Maybe try that instead (just not vs me, plz!) | ||
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