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On November 28 2019 07:12 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 05:14 Elentos wrote:On November 28 2019 04:54 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Queen were giving extra range so libs cant deny mining til spire unit.
Queens were given extra range primarily for this, but also the strength of tankivacs and possibly 2-1-1 back in 2016. 2-1-1 is a dead build, tankivacs were removed a few months after the queen buff and liberators no longer have the range they used to. On top of that, mapmakers in this day and age are very aware that liberators exist and have that in their mind when they set up their maps. Functionally, the 8 range anti-air queen is a relic from a time where Zerg had it a lot worse. It has outlived every reason it was implemented for. So I think the question of whether it's still necessary to have that +1 extra range that snipes air units in the middle of the map from the natural is at the very least justified. True,It could maybe be reverted to 7 range, especially with WP pick up nerf, lib range nerf, and tankivacs removal. Too bad they had to break the game even more by adding free teleport battlecruisers that can shoot while moving and be in your main base at the 5minute mark. Now if you remove 1 range from queens, BCs can just kite them away and kill everything on their path while moving away. Lmao. Its kind of ridiculous that its viable way to open is with a BC as your first gas unit, and harass workers with it. Why does every damn terran unit has to be a worker harass unit.
Dont mean to offend anyone, but this is what happen when our game is balanced by the ppl in charge of coop commander. I really think they are the same ppl, and probably dont have the resources they need to properly balance this game or change the design...
Your last sentence is kind of funny. You realize that Terran economy is terrible early game. All things equal: Protoss will have 25% more workers in the first 5 minutes without disruption; Zerg will have even more. This is why Terran's are not winning. There are maps that take almost a minute to cross and Zerg units that trade evenly AND have a better economy...similar with Protoss.
I would enjoy games where Terran does not have to kill 10+ workers to be even.
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Now show me some S H R O U D zergbois, you'll only have to evolve through the entire tech tree to get it!
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Bisutopia17491 Posts
On November 28 2019 13:42 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 10:59 BisuDagger wrote:On November 28 2019 07:12 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 28 2019 05:14 Elentos wrote:On November 28 2019 04:54 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Queen were giving extra range so libs cant deny mining til spire unit.
Queens were given extra range primarily for this, but also the strength of tankivacs and possibly 2-1-1 back in 2016. 2-1-1 is a dead build, tankivacs were removed a few months after the queen buff and liberators no longer have the range they used to. On top of that, mapmakers in this day and age are very aware that liberators exist and have that in their mind when they set up their maps. Functionally, the 8 range anti-air queen is a relic from a time where Zerg had it a lot worse. It has outlived every reason it was implemented for. So I think the question of whether it's still necessary to have that +1 extra range that snipes air units in the middle of the map from the natural is at the very least justified. True,It could maybe be reverted to 7 range, especially with WP pick up nerf, lib range nerf, and tankivacs removal. Too bad they had to break the game even more by adding free teleport battlecruisers that can shoot while moving and be in your main base at the 5minute mark. Now if you remove 1 range from queens, BCs can just kite them away and kill everything on their path while moving away. Lmao. Its kind of ridiculous that its viable way to open is with a BC as your first gas unit, and harass workers with it. Why does every damn terran unit has to be a worker harass unit. Dont mean to offend anyone, but this is what happen when our game is balanced by the ppl in charge of coop commander. I really think they are the same ppl, and probably dont have the resources they need to properly balance this game or change the design... This is just theory crafting: I'm not opposed to going a step further to make hydras attainable. Zergs get the least units unlocked per structure built. Pool, hydra den, lurker den, ultra etc... All are buildings that unlock one unit. I would be okay if the roach warren (renamed?) also unlocked hydras that way they can be built without the extra building investment and provide the extra has for more just as earlier. Not to nitpick but a roach warren unlocks 2 units right - roach and ravagers?
I didn't list Roach Warren as I agree with you, even though you need lair to get to the second unit. I only mention roach warren as an option for where the hydra could come out.
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On November 28 2019 19:42 Penev wrote:
Now show me some S H R O U D zergbois, you'll only have to evolve through the entire tech tree to get it!
Hmmm ... since we have that ability now anyway and nobody uses it. How about some early game harass defense vs Protoss / Terran air?
Like Queens can cast shroud (upgradable in Hatcheries?) now and we move Transfuse to Infestors and buff it slightly.
Would help vs all sorts of air harass, be it Lib, Banshee, BC, Oracle, VR. Situation with Phoenix is different since they lift above the shroud. Or they can't lift things under shroud period.
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On November 28 2019 20:17 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 13:42 AttackZerg wrote:On November 28 2019 10:59 BisuDagger wrote:On November 28 2019 07:12 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 28 2019 05:14 Elentos wrote:On November 28 2019 04:54 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Queen were giving extra range so libs cant deny mining til spire unit.
Queens were given extra range primarily for this, but also the strength of tankivacs and possibly 2-1-1 back in 2016. 2-1-1 is a dead build, tankivacs were removed a few months after the queen buff and liberators no longer have the range they used to. On top of that, mapmakers in this day and age are very aware that liberators exist and have that in their mind when they set up their maps. Functionally, the 8 range anti-air queen is a relic from a time where Zerg had it a lot worse. It has outlived every reason it was implemented for. So I think the question of whether it's still necessary to have that +1 extra range that snipes air units in the middle of the map from the natural is at the very least justified. True,It could maybe be reverted to 7 range, especially with WP pick up nerf, lib range nerf, and tankivacs removal. Too bad they had to break the game even more by adding free teleport battlecruisers that can shoot while moving and be in your main base at the 5minute mark. Now if you remove 1 range from queens, BCs can just kite them away and kill everything on their path while moving away. Lmao. Its kind of ridiculous that its viable way to open is with a BC as your first gas unit, and harass workers with it. Why does every damn terran unit has to be a worker harass unit. Dont mean to offend anyone, but this is what happen when our game is balanced by the ppl in charge of coop commander. I really think they are the same ppl, and probably dont have the resources they need to properly balance this game or change the design... This is just theory crafting: I'm not opposed to going a step further to make hydras attainable. Zergs get the least units unlocked per structure built. Pool, hydra den, lurker den, ultra etc... All are buildings that unlock one unit. I would be okay if the roach warren (renamed?) also unlocked hydras that way they can be built without the extra building investment and provide the extra has for more just as earlier. Not to nitpick but a roach warren unlocks 2 units right - roach and ravagers? I didn't list Roach Warren as I agree with you, even though you need lair to get to the second unit. I only mention roach warren as an option for where the hydra could come out.
You don’t need Lair to unlock Ravagers...
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Bisutopia17491 Posts
On November 28 2019 21:03 Majick wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 20:17 BisuDagger wrote:On November 28 2019 13:42 AttackZerg wrote:On November 28 2019 10:59 BisuDagger wrote:On November 28 2019 07:12 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 28 2019 05:14 Elentos wrote:On November 28 2019 04:54 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Queen were giving extra range so libs cant deny mining til spire unit.
Queens were given extra range primarily for this, but also the strength of tankivacs and possibly 2-1-1 back in 2016. 2-1-1 is a dead build, tankivacs were removed a few months after the queen buff and liberators no longer have the range they used to. On top of that, mapmakers in this day and age are very aware that liberators exist and have that in their mind when they set up their maps. Functionally, the 8 range anti-air queen is a relic from a time where Zerg had it a lot worse. It has outlived every reason it was implemented for. So I think the question of whether it's still necessary to have that +1 extra range that snipes air units in the middle of the map from the natural is at the very least justified. True,It could maybe be reverted to 7 range, especially with WP pick up nerf, lib range nerf, and tankivacs removal. Too bad they had to break the game even more by adding free teleport battlecruisers that can shoot while moving and be in your main base at the 5minute mark. Now if you remove 1 range from queens, BCs can just kite them away and kill everything on their path while moving away. Lmao. Its kind of ridiculous that its viable way to open is with a BC as your first gas unit, and harass workers with it. Why does every damn terran unit has to be a worker harass unit. Dont mean to offend anyone, but this is what happen when our game is balanced by the ppl in charge of coop commander. I really think they are the same ppl, and probably dont have the resources they need to properly balance this game or change the design... This is just theory crafting: I'm not opposed to going a step further to make hydras attainable. Zergs get the least units unlocked per structure built. Pool, hydra den, lurker den, ultra etc... All are buildings that unlock one unit. I would be okay if the roach warren (renamed?) also unlocked hydras that way they can be built without the extra building investment and provide the extra has for more just as earlier. Not to nitpick but a roach warren unlocks 2 units right - roach and ravagers? I didn't list Roach Warren as I agree with you, even though you need lair to get to the second unit. I only mention roach warren as an option for where the hydra could come out. You don’t need Lair to unlock Ravagers...
*facepalm* Can I blame my two year old for my brain deadness? To explain where my head was, I've always thought ravagers would be a better lair unit and hydras a tier 1. It's part of the SC1 in me that wants hydras available sooner.
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i wish hydra to be a 1 supply unit on hatch level, probably ~50 hp until the lair level research is done
(speed+hp like banes, or hp distributed to the 2 upgrades, like each gives +20 hp so hopefully there would not be too sharp spikes in hydra power level, and no unstoppable early allins with hydra).
hmm this looks like a zerg marine
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On November 28 2019 22:12 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 21:03 Majick wrote:On November 28 2019 20:17 BisuDagger wrote:On November 28 2019 13:42 AttackZerg wrote:On November 28 2019 10:59 BisuDagger wrote:On November 28 2019 07:12 Snakestyle11 wrote:On November 28 2019 05:14 Elentos wrote:On November 28 2019 04:54 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Queen were giving extra range so libs cant deny mining til spire unit.
Queens were given extra range primarily for this, but also the strength of tankivacs and possibly 2-1-1 back in 2016. 2-1-1 is a dead build, tankivacs were removed a few months after the queen buff and liberators no longer have the range they used to. On top of that, mapmakers in this day and age are very aware that liberators exist and have that in their mind when they set up their maps. Functionally, the 8 range anti-air queen is a relic from a time where Zerg had it a lot worse. It has outlived every reason it was implemented for. So I think the question of whether it's still necessary to have that +1 extra range that snipes air units in the middle of the map from the natural is at the very least justified. True,It could maybe be reverted to 7 range, especially with WP pick up nerf, lib range nerf, and tankivacs removal. Too bad they had to break the game even more by adding free teleport battlecruisers that can shoot while moving and be in your main base at the 5minute mark. Now if you remove 1 range from queens, BCs can just kite them away and kill everything on their path while moving away. Lmao. Its kind of ridiculous that its viable way to open is with a BC as your first gas unit, and harass workers with it. Why does every damn terran unit has to be a worker harass unit. Dont mean to offend anyone, but this is what happen when our game is balanced by the ppl in charge of coop commander. I really think they are the same ppl, and probably dont have the resources they need to properly balance this game or change the design... This is just theory crafting: I'm not opposed to going a step further to make hydras attainable. Zergs get the least units unlocked per structure built. Pool, hydra den, lurker den, ultra etc... All are buildings that unlock one unit. I would be okay if the roach warren (renamed?) also unlocked hydras that way they can be built without the extra building investment and provide the extra has for more just as earlier. Not to nitpick but a roach warren unlocks 2 units right - roach and ravagers? I didn't list Roach Warren as I agree with you, even though you need lair to get to the second unit. I only mention roach warren as an option for where the hydra could come out. You don’t need Lair to unlock Ravagers... *facepalm* Can I blame my two year old for my brain deadness? To explain where my head was, I've always thought ravagers would be a better lair unit and hydras a tier 1. It's part of the SC1 in me that wants hydras available sooner.
This.
Queens+creep and no early hydras have been the strangest adjustments for me. That and muta control being way, way less dangerous.
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On November 28 2019 23:26 bela.mervado wrote:
i wish hydra to be a 1 supply unit on hatch level, probably ~50 hp until the lair level research is done
(speed+hp like banes, or hp distributed to the 2 upgrades, like each gives +20 hp so hopefully there would not be too sharp spikes in hydra power level, and no unstoppable early allins with hydra).
hmm this looks like a zerg marine
Exactly. Makes it boring and generic. I'm against it 
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On November 28 2019 19:42 Penev wrote:
Now show me some S H R O U D zergbois, you'll only have to evolve through the entire tech tree to get it!
Have. To. Resist. The. Urge. To. Link. The. SWTOR. Videos. Where. I. Used. The. Shroud.
Nghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,
Fine, I made it.
(I simply love the fact I used shroud so many times, although in a different Star* game  )
I just don't get the usage, like at all. What was the intention? That you group your hydras and f2 them under carriers? While they don't melt to storms, big boom balls, archons or colossi? With a radius 3? (IIRC) Even on lair it's useless as the issue of airtoss strength always was the splash damage melting your units not the airtoss itself.
Fine, it will help lower league players against "airtoss" players, but this is usually decided with +2/+2 hydra push on lair before they can mass the critical mass(or get splash to it). So, uh. Yeah, then we return to the hive reminder :D
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On November 29 2019 00:14 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 19:42 Penev wrote:
Now show me some S H R O U D zergbois, you'll only have to evolve through the entire tech tree to get it! Have. To. Resist. The. Urge. To. Link. The. SWTOR. Videos. Where. I. Used. The. Shroud. Nghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Fine, I made it. (I simply love the fact I used shroud so many times, although in a different Star* game ) I just don't get the usage, like at all. What was the intention? That you group your hydras and f2 them under carriers? While they don't melt to storms, big boom balls, archons or colossi? With a radius 3? (IIRC) Even on lair it's useless as the issue of airtoss strength always was the splash damage melting your units not the airtoss itself. Fine, it will help lower league players against "airtoss" players, but this is usually decided with +2/+2 hydra push on lair before they can mass the critical mass(or get splash to it). So, uh. Yeah, then we return to the hive reminder :D
Well so far it seems like Zerg is still the strongest race. So until Zerg starts to stuggle in the late game I see no reason to improve the shroud ability.
Maybe a switch could be made where Vipers can not abduct massive units, then I could see an improved shroud ability. It would also be a design improvement.
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On November 28 2019 23:34 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2019 23:26 bela.mervado wrote:
i wish hydra to be a 1 supply unit on hatch level, probably ~50 hp until the lair level research is done
(speed+hp like banes, or hp distributed to the 2 upgrades, like each gives +20 hp so hopefully there would not be too sharp spikes in hydra power level, and no unstoppable early allins with hydra).
hmm this looks like a zerg marine Exactly. Makes it boring and generic. I'm against it
hehe good point there
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liberators dont hit burrowed lurkers. is that intended?
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On November 29 2019 00:26 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2019 00:14 deacon.frost wrote:On November 28 2019 19:42 Penev wrote:
Now show me some S H R O U D zergbois, you'll only have to evolve through the entire tech tree to get it! Have. To. Resist. The. Urge. To. Link. The. SWTOR. Videos. Where. I. Used. The. Shroud. Nghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Fine, I made it. (I simply love the fact I used shroud so many times, although in a different Star* game ) I just don't get the usage, like at all. What was the intention? That you group your hydras and f2 them under carriers? While they don't melt to storms, big boom balls, archons or colossi? With a radius 3? (IIRC) Even on lair it's useless as the issue of airtoss strength always was the splash damage melting your units not the airtoss itself. Fine, it will help lower league players against "airtoss" players, but this is usually decided with +2/+2 hydra push on lair before they can mass the critical mass(or get splash to it). So, uh. Yeah, then we return to the hive reminder :D Well so far it seems like Zerg is still the strongest race. So until Zerg starts to stuggle in the late game I see no reason to improve the shroud ability. Maybe a switch could be made where Vipers can not abduct massive units, then I could see an improved shroud ability. It would also be a design improvement.
having a uselss ability is a design flaw,not a balance problem.
if you're claiming that design flaws should not be dealt with until balance is resolved i can't agree with you.
also, declaring zerg is still the strongest race only 2 days after the patch was released is rather doubtful,
even when considering the tournament played on it prior to it's release (olimo weekly, HSC).
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Not a fan of what they did to Protoss. Chargelots are awful now, Adepts may as well not be a unit and Flux Void Rays are kinda silly. You can juggle your opponent using 2 squads of them the same way Terran juggles their opponents with alternating drops...
Blizzard. If I want fast, disposable units, I'll play Zerg. If I want to harass the entire game and piss my opponent off with juggling drops, I'll play Terran. Why the heck are you screwing with racial identity and making weird changes nobody asked for? Charge wasn't overpowered and if your intent was for the Zealot to be a front line meat shield instead of a front line damage dealer, you failed because you didn't understand that the reason the +8 damage Chargelot tanked well wasn't because it actually tanked. It was because it killed stuff fast enough to reduce the damage it had to tank. And that was a variable you didn't think through. I am a little disappointed in you. Do better please.
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On November 29 2019 04:26 BabelFish1 wrote:
Adepts may as well not be a unit.
They're shockingly bad now. You used to at least be able to get glaives and do a bit of harass against zerg while also being able to use them defensively afterward if the zerg countered with a bunch of lings or even a few roaches, but now that upgrade is basically useful for that one first surprise shot of harass then the adepts are useless afterward. It's turned the adept into this crappy all-or-nothing unit where either the zerg is unprepared for the harass and they lose all their drones and the game since 4-6 adepts can basically wipe out a mineral line in that 6 seconds, or the zerg defends the adepts and then the protoss is at a big disadvantage because the upgrade isn't really useful defensively. I can only really see adepts being used offensively in all-ins now and that's about it. If the time with boosted attack speed was longer they might be more useful in other scenarios, but as is they're not.
As is, when attacking, the opponent can bait out a shade from the adepts, retreat until either the shade is cancelled and put on cooldown or until the adepts shade, then attack a second or two later and at most deal with a couple seconds of adepts at boosted attack speed before they're on cooldown and back to attacking super slowly until the next shade completes. At best, an adept can be in their boosted attack speed around 6 of every 18 seconds, but that requires perfectly timed shades and for the adepts to be able to be utilized for the entire 6 seconds. I just don't see how it's a worthwhile upgrade to consider anymore outside of all-in timings.
I can't really judge charge zealots yet. They definitely seem better against zerg off-creep and for running into mineral lines. Terran is a different story. From what I've seen so far, charge zealots seem much worse when used how we used old zealots against Terran, but there are likely to be other ways of using them that we haven't fully figured out yet. Trapping armies with flanks and things like that will likely become much more common I expect.
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On November 29 2019 06:21 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2019 04:26 BabelFish1 wrote:
Adepts may as well not be a unit. They're shockingly bad now. You used to at least be able to get glaives and do a bit of harass against zerg while also being able to use them defensively afterward if the zerg countered with a bunch of lings or even a few roaches, but now that upgrade is basically useful for that one first surprise shot of harass then the adepts are useless afterward. It's turned the adept into this crappy all-or-nothing unit where either the zerg is unprepared for the harass and they lose all their drones and the game since 4-6 adepts can basically wipe out a mineral line in that 6 seconds, or the zerg defends the adepts and then the protoss is at a big disadvantage because the upgrade isn't really useful defensively. I can only really see adepts being used offensively in all-ins now and that's about it. If the time with boosted attack speed was longer they might be more useful in other scenarios, but as is they're not. As is, when attacking, the opponent can bait out a shade from the adepts, retreat until either the shade is cancelled and put on cooldown or until the adepts shade, then attack a second or two later and at most deal with a couple seconds of adepts at boosted attack speed before they're on cooldown and back to attacking super slowly until the next shade completes. At best, an adept can be in their boosted attack speed around 6 of every 18 seconds, but that requires perfectly timed shades and for the adepts to be able to be utilized for the entire 6 seconds. I just don't see how it's a worthwhile upgrade to consider anymore outside of all-in timings. I can't really judge charge zealots yet. They definitely seem better against zerg off-creep and for running into mineral lines. Terran is a different story. From what I've seen so far, charge zealots seem much worse when used how we used old zealots against Terran, but there are likely to be other ways of using them that we haven't fully figured out yet. Trapping armies with flanks and things like that will likely become much more common I expect.
My issue with the chargelot in TvP is sure, we can flank with them but they just evaporate to everything now. The front loaded damage on charge reduced the amount of units the chargelot had to tank.
And with Tanks, Mines, Liberators and PFs...where's the runby potential? Terran is uniquely designed to be nigh immune to runbys.
As for Zerg, sure they're good at chasing down zerg units off creep but the old chargelots already did that and actually killed what they chased. You kited or you lost all your Roaches during the retreat. Now you can just stand still and force the chargelots to run away.
It was a very poorly thought through change...which is kinda par for all the Protoss changes. Poorly thought through.
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Bisutopia17491 Posts
Adepts and zealots need synergy in the late game. What if you could shade onto a unit and the shade would absorb damage as if it were a d-matrix for the duration of the shade attached to the unit/zealot. Adepts would then be useful in equal numbers with zealots, but frail damage dealers left alone.
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On November 29 2019 06:48 BisuDagger wrote:
Adepts and zealots need synergy in the late game. What if you could shade onto a unit and the shade would absorb damage as if it were a d-matrix for the duration of the shade attached to the unit/zealot. Adepts would then be useful in equal numbers with zealots, but frail damage dealers left alone.
Sounds complicated. Why doesn't the balance team just follow through and make the Adept actually deal damage and the Zealot actually tank damage?
Charge giving +30 or 40 shields and take away some of that meme worthy Zealot speed currently on charge and Adepts dealing bonus damage to targets they consecutively attack with Shade active would be enough, along with reverting that Glavies change they did.
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On November 28 2019 06:25 Allred wrote:
well from a balance point of view. zealots are now officially awful units...
"These were the kind of bold balance changes Protoss needed to have chance in PvZ." - Random Terran Player
I called it when I saw the notes, these changes hurt Protoss more than they help.
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EPT
