Maru, is without a doubt one, a living legend of StarCraft II. Throughout his long and rich career, Maru has achieved almost all there is to achieve in StarCraft II, from playing in the first ever GSL, helping his team win GSTL and ProLeague championships, and winning individual champions in every major domestic league (OSL, SSL, Code S).
Yet, for all his greatness, there is one achievement which has eluded Maru for his entire career: The WCS Global Finals championship. A peerless, standout player in almost every other way, Maru is but one of many great players who are still looking for this one final piece to their career puzzle.
It was 2013, and expectations were low for MaruPrime going into the OnGameNet Starleague. The kid had made his broadcast debut three years prior, but his career thus far suggested he was doomed to be one of those forever prospects. But, befitting its name, the OnGameNet Starleague has a reputation for making stars. As the tournament went on, round after round, Maru kept winning. He might have seemed lucky to survive the group stages, but then he beat Code S finalist Symbol in his first playoff match. Oh, this might be happening. Maru might be walking the Royal Road. Maru continued to shine brightly, defeating the invincible INnoVation 4-0 in the semifinals. Finally, he defeated Rain—himself a Royal Roader—to take his place in the sky.
This particular star has always been prone to a bit of flickering in and out. Maru ended his breakout year with a glut of top four finishes in major tournaments, impressing with his gameplay but ultimately losing to more solid players. At the end of 2013, Maru moved on from Prime and signed with Jin Air Green Wings. Joining a KeSPA team gave Maru the opportunity to take his career to the next level, which he did... in a sense.
From 2014 to 2016 Maru was absolutely indispensable for Jin Air in Proleague, always toward the top of the performance charts in terms of games played, games won, and win-rate. His results in Proleague only got better as time went along. The 2016 season saw him record an obscene 22-4 record and win finals MVP in Jin Air's first championship-winning campaign.
Yet, during that time, the only individual gold Maru was able to obtain was his SSL Season 1 title (he also took two second place finishes at IEM Taipei 2014 and WESG 2016). Some of it might have been due to style reasons. Despite possessing the micro and multitasking skills to beat most players to a pulp with bio and medivacs, Maru wasn't perfectly suited to play in the mech-heavy era of late Heart of the Swarm. 2016 also brought the advent of a new expansion, and Maru wouldn't have been alone in struggling to adapt to Legacy of the Void.
But really, none of that explains the difference between Proleague and individual league Maru, with his domination of the 2016 Proleague coinciding with his worst individual league slump yet (just one Ro16 finish in SSL/GSL). These disappointments might simply have been a matter of conflicting priorities, with Maru and Jin Air opting to focus his energies on Proleague instead of overextending him in a vain grab for more glory. 2017, the first year without Proleague, saw Maru perform better in individual leagues, but ultimately end the year with Ro32 elimination in Code S and no ticket to BlizzCon.
Maru has said that loss was a wake-up call, the reason he got his s*** together and tore off the greatest Code S year ever in 2018. He somehow managed to make winning Code S look easy, setting a new record by winning three consecutive Code S events. He did this despite facing the toughest opponents Korea had to offer, defeating all seven of Korea's BlizzCon representatives in a playoff match.
Maru showed off impressive strategic range, whether it was extreme late-game turtling against Zerg (as seen earlier in 2018 against the likes of Serral and Dark) or proxying every single building against Protoss. While it could look like Maru was simply trying to abuse whatever strategies were most overpowered at the time, those strategies were also strong in part because Maru was perfecting them.
Clearly, as the best player in GSL Code S, Maru had to be the best player in the world. But in August, an inkling of doubt started to creep in. For while Maru was carving up Korea, WCS Circuit champion Serral had recovered from winter losses at IEM Katowice and WESG, and was looking even more dominant on the Circuit. He shocked the StarCraft II world by winning August's GSL vs. The World, defeating three of Korea's best in Dark, INnoVation, and Stats to claim a championship on Korean soil. While Maru avoided a direct confrontation with Serral as he was eliminated by Stats in the semis, he let the seed of doubt sprout roots when he lost a best-of-one to Serral in the showmatch portion of GSL vs. The World.
Maru's GSL vs. The World performance, combined with two early eliminations in GSL Super Tournament, put fans in a perplexing spot. While it seemed that Maru could win GSL Code S at will, it didn't necessarily mean that ability applied to any tournament, even a lesser one. Then what about a bigger one?
Conveniently, every was set up perfectly to be resolved at the 2018 Global Finals. Maru and Serral were clearly the best players from their respective regions. There was no way BlizzCon was ending without a conclusive battle to decide who was the undisputed, best player in the world.
And then, in the quarterfinals of BlizzCon, sOs ran Maru over in barely 15 minutes of in-game time, with Maru falling apart completely against his teammate's aggressive strategies. If Maru had tripped and broke his hand on his way to the venue, it couldn't have been more anti-climatic an ending. As for Serral, well, we all know what happened there.
If Maru's rock-bottom ending to 2017 inspired his 2018 run, then 2019 seemed to begin in a similar way. Maru looked hungry for redemption as he took his fourth consecutive Code S title, shattering his own record in the process. It seemed for a moment that Maru was made from even sterner stuff than we had imagined, with the disappointment of BlizzCon 2018 birthing an even more motivated Maru that would take his rightful championship in 2019. But then, his performance for the rest of the year took a sharp and unexpected nosedive, with a shocking elimination in the Ro32 of the very next Code S.
The 3rd season of Code S had the potential to be another special one for Maru, as he landed a nearly perfect bracket road to the final. Yet in a reversal of the first season of Code S, Maru was beaten by his teammate, Trap and was denied a shot at the mythic G5L trophy.
While Maru's total domination over GSL Code S in 2018 will stand forever as one of the greatest feats in StarCraft II, it's also tinged with regret. Without a BlizzCon championship to wrap it all up, it's like a work of art that's been left incomplete. Maru almost had the greatest calendar year in StarCraft history. Maru almost seized the title of greatest of all time. Instead, he was 'merely' unbelievably great, which was just not good enough to meet our lofty expectations. No, a victory at BlizzCon 2019 won't redeem the failed quest of 2018. But, at least, it could complete the even longer journey started in 2010.
On October 23 2019 15:27 DinosaurJones wrote: Holy crap, I forgot about the G5L trophy. At this point, Maru is the only person that could conceivably win it, at least for quite a long time.
INno still exists, and he could (conceivably) start playing well again.
On October 23 2019 15:27 DinosaurJones wrote: Holy crap, I forgot about the G5L trophy. At this point, Maru is the only person that could conceivably win it, at least for quite a long time.
INno still exists, and he could (conceivably) start playing well again.
Keep on dreaming, people like you changed the world! They had a dream and they followed the dream and... uh, forced other people to do what they wanted? I personally think that LotV isn't a good expansion for Inno. Can't tell why, it's just a feeling.
On October 23 2019 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote: It's locally in Afreeca studios with some time to prepare, so at least for the groups there aren't even the usual set of excuses for Maru.
Absolutely a tournament favorite, hope to see the man lift the trophy. If he gets out of his group convincingly I don't see him losing to anyone to be honest.
On October 23 2019 14:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote: It's locally in Afreeca studios with some time to prepare, so at least for the groups there aren't even the usual set of excuses for Maru.
He had weeks to prepare for sOs in 2018... well, sOs had weeks to prepare for Maru ^^
On October 23 2019 18:02 Akio wrote: Absolutely a tournament favorite, hope to see the man lift the trophy. If he gets out of his group convincingly I don't see him losing to anyone to be honest.
Although last year he lost 3-0 to sOs so...
I can see him losing to any of the Korean players other than soO.
Conveniently, every was set up perfectly to be resolved at the 2018 Global Finals. Maru and Serral were clearly the best players from their respective regions. There was no way BlizzCon was ending without a conclusive battle to decide who was the undisputed, best player in the world.
And one of the most tragically comical things for me was the fact of Blizzard rigging the bracket to set up the perfect finals between Serral and Maru and then sOs basically b-slapping Maru out, and then fizzling out against stats. Seriously, who writes scripts like this?
Conveniently, every was set up perfectly to be resolved at the 2018 Global Finals. Maru and Serral were clearly the best players from their respective regions. There was no way BlizzCon was ending without a conclusive battle to decide who was the undisputed, best player in the world.
And one of the most tragically comical things for me was the fact of Blizzard rigging the bracket to set up the perfect finals between Serral and Maru and then sOs basically b-slapping Maru out, and then fizzling out against stats. Seriously, who writes scripts like this?
Conveniently, every was set up perfectly to be resolved at the 2018 Global Finals. Maru and Serral were clearly the best players from their respective regions. There was no way BlizzCon was ending without a conclusive battle to decide who was the undisputed, best player in the world.
And one of the most tragically comical things for me was the fact of Blizzard rigging the bracket to set up the perfect finals between Serral and Maru and then sOs basically b-slapping Maru out, and then fizzling out against stats. Seriously, who writes scripts like this?
If TIME or Stats win their matches, I'm gonna cry
If TIME and Stats win their matches, I'm gonna party like it's 1998
On October 23 2019 18:02 Akio wrote: Absolutely a tournament favorite, hope to see the man lift the trophy. If he gets out of his group convincingly I don't see him losing to anyone to be honest.
Although last year he lost 3-0 to sOs so...
I can see him losing to any of the Korean players other than soO.
In a sense yes, his performance can be super volatile. An on-form Maru is unstoppable though
On October 23 2019 18:02 Akio wrote: Absolutely a tournament favorite, hope to see the man lift the trophy. If he gets out of his group convincingly I don't see him losing to anyone to be honest.
Although last year he lost 3-0 to sOs so...
I can see him losing to any of the Korean players other than soO.
In a sense yes, his performance can be super volatile. An on-form Maru is unstoppable though
His game is based on a very volatile play. He plays on a knife-edge and all it takes is one fail. Except for the teamkills, which are weird as usual.
Conveniently, every was set up perfectly to be resolved at the 2018 Global Finals. Maru and Serral were clearly the best players from their respective regions. There was no way BlizzCon was ending without a conclusive battle to decide who was the undisputed, best player in the world.
And one of the most tragically comical things for me was the fact of Blizzard rigging the bracket to set up the perfect finals between Serral and Maru and then sOs basically b-slapping Maru out, and then fizzling out against stats. Seriously, who writes scripts like this?
If TIME or Stats win their matches, I'm gonna cry
If TIME and Stats win their matches, I'm gonna party like it's 1998
Conveniently, every was set up perfectly to be resolved at the 2018 Global Finals. Maru and Serral were clearly the best players from their respective regions. There was no way BlizzCon was ending without a conclusive battle to decide who was the undisputed, best player in the world.
And one of the most tragically comical things for me was the fact of Blizzard rigging the bracket to set up the perfect finals between Serral and Maru and then sOs basically b-slapping Maru out, and then fizzling out against stats. Seriously, who writes scripts like this?
If TIME or Stats win their matches, I'm gonna cry
If TIME and Stats win their matches, I'm gonna party like it's 1998
Wouldn't that be somethind ^^
I wonder how my 11 yr old self was partying XD
Hopefully you were partying by going on a hard BW binge
No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Then go and rewrite history when sOs' 2 wins were not that impressive Do the 1984 revision!
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Then go and rewrite history when sOs' 2 wins were not that impressive Do the 1984 revision!
You're one of the religious zealots, but that is okay, at least you accept it!
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
On October 23 2019 14:23 TL.net ESPORTS wrote: Despite possessing the micro and multitasking skills to beat most players to a pulp with bio and medivacs, Maru wasn't perfectly suited to play in the mech-heavy era of late Heart of the Swarm. 2016 also brought the advent of a new expansion, and Maru wouldn't have been alone in struggling to adapt to Legacy of the Void.
I'm still saying Maru was a top 3 player at the start of LotV. Maybe even #2 at the very start (behind Zest).
It's hard to argue he struggled in adapting to LoTV when his proleague performance was absolutely insane. Going 22-4 against players including like Dark, Solar, Dear, Zest, INno, TY (x3), Stats (x2), aLive, Gumiho, Bunny, ByuL, and Classic. Those were basically all the best performers in korea that year (minus ByuN I guess) and Maru was still untouchable.
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
What year do you live in, actually? If BlizzCon wasn't held in high regard in the past, it was a wrong decision back then; and Code S being by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet...maybe it was true once, it's not the case anymore.
Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply
HeroMarine isn't anything close to Gumiho. Elazer only matches Solar in ZvZ (even then it's questionable). ShowTimE doesn't have the skill ceiling of Dear but I guess he's more consistant?
TIME's TvZ matches TY? Rofl.
Overall all four of those koreans have accomplished and shown much greater things than their foreign counterparts. They just don't have the same opportunities. Put it this way, you think any of those foreigners are making ro8 in Code S? I don't.
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply
HeroMarine isn't anything close to Gumiho. Elazer only matches Solar in ZvZ (even then it's questionable). ShowTimE doesn't have the skill ceiling of Dear but I guess he's more consistant?
TIME's TvZ matches TY? Rofl.
Overall all four of those koreans have accomplished and shown much greater things than their foreign counterparts. They just don't have the same opportunities. Put it this way, you think any of those foreigners are making ro8 in Code S? I don't.
If Serral would be in the situation of winning GSL but not winning BlizzCon he would defend the position of BerserkSword I’m pretty sure of that. Maybe HM/Elazer/ShoWTimE/TIME are closer now to Gumiho/Solar/Dear/TY but no way they are close.
BlizzCon is still prestigious because there are still a lot of good Koreans + the best foreigners in it, the highest amount of viewers and some nice prize money. Probably the most prestigious along with IEM and GSL Code S.
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply
HeroMarine isn't anything close to Gumiho. Elazer only matches Solar in ZvZ (even then it's questionable). ShowTimE doesn't have the skill ceiling of Dear but I guess he's more consistant?
TIME's TvZ matches TY? Rofl.
Overall all four of those koreans have accomplished and shown much greater things than their foreign counterparts. They just don't have the same opportunities. Put it this way, you think any of those foreigners are making ro8 in Code S? I don't.
If Serral would be in the situation of winning GSL but not winning BlizzCon he would defend the position of BerserkSword I’m pretty sure of that. Maybe HM/Elazer/ShoWTimE/TIME are closer now to Gumiho/Solar/Dear/TY but no way they are close.
You are pretty sure, Poopi? You are pretty wrong, then.
Elazer's ZvZ is better than Solar's(he won the H2H at HSC, twice, and guess who beat Dark? Definitely not Solar…), and that's not even questionable. I said TIME's TvZ(at his best), might match TY's, judging by how they respectively fared against Serral, but that might not be the case and I would never pick TIME over TY. I don't even like the biggest of Gabes that much, but this year he was constantly stopped by Serral and Reynor, the two strongest players in WCS, evenly traded series against Gumiho and he went 2-3 overall against Trap's PvT, the best in the world. ShowTime had a weak showing this year, but I instead think his potential is higher than Dear's(unless we speak of godly 2013 Dear, but I fear that player is long gone).
They are close enough, and they might definitely reach ro8 in Code S. Do I have to remind you that Bunny, Keen, Ragnarok and Hurricane(who even advanced to the ro4) did this year?
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply
HeroMarine isn't anything close to Gumiho. Elazer only matches Solar in ZvZ (even then it's questionable). ShowTimE doesn't have the skill ceiling of Dear but I guess he's more consistant?
TIME's TvZ matches TY? Rofl.
Overall all four of those koreans have accomplished and shown much greater things than their foreign counterparts. They just don't have the same opportunities. Put it this way, you think any of those foreigners are making ro8 in Code S? I don't.
If Serral would be in the situation of winning GSL but not winning BlizzCon he would defend the position of BerserkSword I’m pretty sure of that. Maybe HM/Elazer/ShoWTimE/TIME are closer now to Gumiho/Solar/Dear/TY but no way they are close.
They are close enough, and they might definitely reach ro8 in Code S. Do I have to remind you that Bunny, Keen, Ragnarok and Hurricane(who even advanced to the ro4) did this year?
Bunny, Hurricane, Keen, and Ragnarok all had to play in Code S a million times and have made ro8 like once each. You think if HeroMarine, Elazer, or TIME would have a good chance?
Hell SpeCial is better than all of those guys and it look him 7 (I think) attempts just to make ro16
On October 24 2019 01:30 Die4Ever wrote: Surprised there was no mention of Maru vs Jaedong in the Blizzcon 2013 semifinals
They mentioned the slew of ro4 finishes. Shame they didn't mention how much of a dead race terran was during that time, Maru's performance was insane in that context (3-4 terrans in GSL ro32).
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply
HeroMarine isn't anything close to Gumiho. Elazer only matches Solar in ZvZ (even then it's questionable). ShowTimE doesn't have the skill ceiling of Dear but I guess he's more consistant?
TIME's TvZ matches TY? Rofl.
Overall all four of those koreans have accomplished and shown much greater things than their foreign counterparts. They just don't have the same opportunities. Put it this way, you think any of those foreigners are making ro8 in Code S? I don't.
If Serral would be in the situation of winning GSL but not winning BlizzCon he would defend the position of BerserkSword I’m pretty sure of that. Maybe HM/Elazer/ShoWTimE/TIME are closer now to Gumiho/Solar/Dear/TY but no way they are close.
They are close enough, and they might definitely reach ro8 in Code S. Do I have to remind you that Bunny, Keen, Ragnarok and Hurricane(who even advanced to the ro4) did this year?
Bunny, Hurricane, Keen, and Ragnarok all had to play in Code S a million times and have made ro8 like once each. You think if HeroMarine, Elazer, or TIME would have a good chance?
Hell SpeCial is better than all of those guys and it look him 7 (I think) attempts just to make ro16
Yet Special made it to ro16 twice consecutively this year. Keen&co reaching ro8 wasn't a case, they all were playing well when they went that far in Code S; and I wouldn't pick Ragnarok over Elazer, Hurricane over Showtime, Keen over Heromarine and Bunny over TIME.
Also, you are surely mistaken. WCS Korea S3 in 2013 had 11 Terran in the ro32, and there were 8 Terran out of 16 at BlizzCon; such a dead race!
On October 24 2019 01:30 Die4Ever wrote: Surprised there was no mention of Maru vs Jaedong in the Blizzcon 2013 semifinals
They mentioned the slew of ro4 finishes. Shame they didn't mention how much of a dead race terran was during that time, Maru's performance was insane in that context (3-4 terrans in GSL ro32).
Too controversial lol, he's often the only terran in the playoffs
Also, all the debate about what tier Blizzcon falls into relies on Serral. Without him then sure, GSL is the top, but Serral is the champ right now and we get to see who can challenge him.
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
What year do you live in, actually? If BlizzCon wasn't held in high regard in the past, it was a wrong decision back then; and Code S being by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet...maybe it was true once, it's not the case anymore.
Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply
I'm not saying that Blizzcon was not/should not be held in high regard.
I'm saying that with regards to prestige in terms of skill, Code S is the king. It's the biggest tournament in the Mecca of Starcraft. The talent and skill level of Code S is off the charts....the depth is insane. Saying code S is not more prestigious than blizzcon is like saying the NBA championship is not more prestigious than the olympic gold medal in basketball.
Look I love the foreign players and they sure as hell narrowed the gap. But the gap is still there and it's significant.
Heromarine over Gumiho is completely unreasonable lol. One is a terran player from a region infamous for having weak terran players, the other is basically a byun's replacement terran horseman.
Showtime over Dear isnt acceptable at all. Dear ranges from rock solid to complete beast in all matchups and does so in korea.
Elazer vs Solar...it's solar and not even close. Even if we concede that elazer a better ZvZ than solar, Solar's ZvT and ZvP completely blow Elazer's out of the water. Korea is not the same as the zerg dominated WCS. Korean Zergs have to run the gauntlet of all the monster Korean Protoss and Terran players
If Heromarine, showtime, elazer, and time had to CONSTANTLY compete against elite korean talent it would be a different matter.
I don’t honestly recall periods where Blizzcon was not considered rather bloody prestigious.
It’s a different beast where you need to be consistently good over a long stretch to get in, versus having a real hot streak of form at a good time or a favourable meta.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying it places it above Code S at all, but you don’t have (relatively) bad Blizzcon champs like you do with some in Code S.
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
What year do you live in, actually? If BlizzCon wasn't held in high regard in the past, it was a wrong decision back then; and Code S being by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet...maybe it was true once, it's not the case anymore.
Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply
I'm not saying that Blizzcon was not/should not be held in high regard.
I'm saying that with regards to prestige in terms of skill, Code S is the king. It's the biggest tournament in the Mecca of Starcraft. The talent and skill level of Code S is off the charts....the depth is insane. Saying code S is not more prestigious than blizzcon is like saying the NBA championship is not more prestigious than the olympic gold medal in basketball.
Look I love the foreign players and they sure as hell narrowed the gap. But the gap is still there and it's significant.
Heromarine over Gumiho is completely unreasonable lol. One is a terran player from a region infamous for having weak terran players, the other is basically a byun's replacement terran horseman.
Showtime over Dear isnt acceptable at all. Dear ranges from rock solid to complete beast in all matchups and does so in korea.
Elazer vs Solar...it's solar and not even close. Even if we concede that elazer a better ZvZ than solar, Solar's ZvT and ZvP completely blow Elazer's out of the water. Korea is not the same as the zerg dominated WCS. Korean Zergs have to run the gauntlet of all the monster Korean Protoss and Terran players
If Heromarine, showtime, elazer, and time had to CONSTANTLY compete against elite korean talent it would be a different matter.
Man, the Code S you are speaking of simply does not exist anymore; compared to the past, its depth is greatly reduced despite the later stages of the competition being as competitive as ever. In 2015 your basketball comparison would have made sense, but, in 2019, that's not the case.
The, very different, idea we have of nowadays GSL affects how we respectively value the fairness of the Global Final spots given to those WCS players; Korea is ahead, the gap exists and it is significant. It's no way as large as you are trying to tell me.
In any of case, while Solar's ZvT is immensely better than Elazer's while his ZvP is very good but we didn't get to see much of Elazer's after the patch, and it generally is Elazer's best.
I believe Maru is the most mechanically talented player that has ever played the game. That being said I think terran is in a bit of a weak spot right now and I don't like his chances.
On October 24 2019 03:23 DieuCure wrote: Yep, we saw it at Katowice (the only real global tournament), the gap isn't immense, Showtime is better than Dear, and Elazer than Solar !
We saw it at GSL vs the World where no korean reached the final and foreigners came out ahead in map score?
Maru will have to fight not just his opponents but also the map pool every step of the way. Only thing is, it's not out of the question that he could pull it off.
On October 24 2019 03:23 DieuCure wrote: Yep, we saw it at Katowice (the only real global tournament), the gap isn't immense, Showtime is better than Dear, and Elazer than Solar !
We saw it at GSL vs the World where no korean reached the final and foreigners came out ahead in map score?
Sure, compare an invitational with the biggest tournament of the year.
On October 24 2019 03:23 DieuCure wrote: Yep, we saw it at Katowice (the only real global tournament), the gap isn't immense, Showtime is better than Dear, and Elazer than Solar !
We saw it at GSL vs the World where no korean reached the final and foreigners came out ahead in map score?
Sure, compare an invitational with the biggest tournament of the year.
Sure, being invited to a tournament cIoses the gap by itself, it's not like you need to have reached a certain level to beat top tier players.
I bet you were one of those predicting an easy 3-0 victory for Dark over Elazer.
On October 24 2019 03:23 DieuCure wrote: Yep, we saw it at Katowice (the only real global tournament), the gap isn't immense, Showtime is better than Dear, and Elazer than Solar !
We saw it at GSL vs the World where no korean reached the final and foreigners came out ahead in map score?
Sure, compare an invitational with the biggest tournament of the year.
Sure, being invited to a tournament cIoses the gap by itself, it's not like you need to have reached a certain level to beat top tier players.
I bet you were one of those predicting an easy 3-0 victory for Dark over Elazer.
GSL vs The World only has ro16, do you really use that against IEM which has like a trillion foreigner vs koreans battle? Last IEM was a fucking blood bath, a lot of top players dropped left and right like flies.
The truth is that without these invitationals (Blizzcons, GSLvsTheWorld, PyeongChang,...), foreigners wouldnt have a shot (Serral appart).
The last three IEM Katowice : -> 2017 two foreigners in ro12 (Nerchio and Serral) -> 2018 one foreigner in ro12 (Serral) -> 2019 two foreigners in ro12 (Neeb and Serral)
I compared the Aligulac offline vs-Korean winrate (starting from beginning of this year, 1/1/2019) between Solar and Elazer, GuMiho and Heromarine, and finally Dear and Showtime.
As extra, Special has 51.81% (43/83) winrate so I would say he is top 20 player but based on all of these winrates, I cannot honestly say the same for the other foreigners.
Note: In fairness, the foreigners had fewer opportunities than the Koreans and if they participated in GSL qualifiers and GSL ro32, I bet their winrate probably would've been higher. That's probably why Special has much higher winrates than the other foreigners. Overall, it seems to me that it is harder to get high vs-Korean offline winrates if you are a foreigner who does not participate in GSL, which makes Serral's winrates even more impressive. That also explains to me why Serral has worser winrates than Rogue or Dark but is still the favourite to win Blizzcon (and interestingly enough, he is entering Blizzcon with around the same winrate as last year).
That said, I don't think this consideration is enough to close the gap in winrates that we're seeing here.
It's easier to have higher win ratio against koreans if you get to play mid and low tier korean players more often; look at the average rank of the opponents faced.
At IEM Katowice, foreigners performed very bad both in 2018 and 2019, years in which their overall performance was considerably better than the one they had in 2017; that's a fact.
While the fact Katowice has open qualifiers justifies a reduced foreigner presence at the tournament, it can't justify their absimal qualification rate to the playoff stage; if their level of skill would truly be that lower, no invitational would save them(see GSL vs The World, for example).
I remember last year it seemed like Serral was the only one that had a chance of standing between Maru and his global championship. Then Maru got bopped harder than he bopped Zest in the Code S finals by a player everyone thought he would steamroll. Now he enters the tournament with lots of players that I think would be favored against him if they ever meet up. I hope he can flip expectations in a more positive direction this time. At least we'll (probably) finally get to see him face Serral in a meaningful BoX for the first time in almost 2 years.
On October 24 2019 06:58 Kitai wrote: I remember last year it seemed like Serral was the only one that had a chance of standing between Maru and his global championship. Then Maru got bopped harder than he bopped Zest in the Code S finals by a player everyone thought he would steamroll. Now he enters the tournament with lots of players that I think would be favored against him if they ever meet up. I hope he can flip expectations in a more positive direction this time. At least we'll (probably) finally get to see him face Serral in a meaningful BoX for the first time in almost 2 years.
Maru has a history of getting destroyed by his team mates. One bitter defeat was in BlizzCon 2015 against Rogue.
Does everyone think he would steamroll a team mate?
On October 23 2019 22:08 ProFalseIdol wrote: No so long ago, BlizzCon wasn't even mentioned when decribing sOs. And mind you, those two wins was when BlizzCon only had 1 foreigner able to make it. Now suddenly BlizzCon is that important when half of it almost doesn't have any championships that is not WCS.
Just Two or Three years ago, you wouldn't really consider BlizzCon as causing a "tinge of regret".
Blizzcon beside money is not as prestige as IEM Katowice and GSL code S coz you have nearly half of the players who are there just because of region lock.
Look, just because we're posting on the most Korean-elitist corner of the SC2 community doesn't mean you should really believe that. Not even the Korean forums believe this . This is like some TL.net BW forums level of 'somehow the people who don't even live there are more religiously devoted to Korean StarCraft' stuff.
Code S is by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet. IEM katowice has better players and is more difficult to win than Blizzcon so it's more prestigious in that sense as well.
TY, Solar, Gumiho, Dear are staying at home while Time, Elazer, Heromarine, and Showtime are in the WCS global finals. Let that sink in.
What year do you live in, actually? If BlizzCon wasn't held in high regard in the past, it was a wrong decision back then; and Code S being by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet...maybe it was true once, it's not the case anymore.
Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply
Both Dear and Solar is a GSL Code S and SSL champions respectively. Showtime and Elazer are simply just WCS champions when MC, Hydra, Polt etc left. TIME is still new, no championship yet? I've never heard of Heromarine. Lols. Has any of these players even got a ro16 Code S?
Just last year when Serral was a nobody as well, you can't even imagine comparing them given the results they have during korean-allowed tournaments as is evident with Showtime results in the current Blizzcon. Serral's hyped and amazing rise gives credit to those who he steamrolls.
On October 24 2019 05:26 Anc13nt wrote: I compared the Aligulac offline vs-Korean winrate (starting from beginning of this year, 1/1/2019) between Solar and Elazer, GuMiho and Heromarine, and finally Dear and Showtime.
As extra, Special has 51.81% (43/83) winrate so I would say he is top 20 player but based on all of these winrates, I cannot honestly say the same for the other foreigners.
Note: In fairness, the foreigners had fewer opportunities than the Koreans and if they participated in GSL qualifiers and GSL ro32, I bet their winrate probably would've been higher. That's probably why Special has much higher winrates than the other foreigners. Overall, it seems to me that it is harder to get high vs-Korean offline winrates if you are a foreigner who does not participate in GSL, which makes Serral's winrates even more impressive. That also explains to me why Serral has worser winrates than Rogue or Dark but is still the favourite to win Blizzcon (and interestingly enough, he is entering Blizzcon with around the same winrate as last year).
That said, I don't think this consideration is enough to close the gap in winrates that we're seeing here.
Probably not, good data though.
Form fluctuates and matchups and brackets factor in, very difficult to sift through it all.
Still compared to previous eras there’s a fair few foreigners now who you could see on a good run making GSL Ro16 or further.
They all have weaknesses of various kinds but just from watching their actual gameplay it’s a lot cleaner and closer to what Koreans bring than in years passed. Plus perhaps some of the mental block of ‘going full foreigner’ has been broken through.
Showtime when he plays good just looks really good, which isn’t always but even in defeat he can show great games (such as vs Dark). Special is great when he has a plan to bring, Elazer had his miracle run already etc.
HeroMarine I think is the weakest for a GSL format because he plays very solidly but really predictably too and can be abused.
If Blizzard ever do decide to pull out from funding the scene it would be awesome if the last year had a more unified circuit so we got to see the best foreigners facing the best Koreans more regularly.