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Die4Ever
United States17750 Posts
On October 24 2019 01:57 Fango wrote: They mentioned the slew of ro4 finishes. Shame they didn't mention how much of a dead race terran was during that time, Maru's performance was insane in that context (3-4 terrans in GSL ro32). Too controversial lol, he's often the only terran in the playoffs | ||
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loft
United States344 Posts
Also, all the debate about what tier Blizzcon falls into relies on Serral. Without him then sure, GSL is the top, but Serral is the champ right now and we get to see who can challenge him. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On October 24 2019 00:54 Xain0n wrote: What year do you live in, actually? If BlizzCon wasn't held in high regard in the past, it was a wrong decision back then; and Code S being by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet...maybe it was true once, it's not the case anymore. Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply I'm not saying that Blizzcon was not/should not be held in high regard. I'm saying that with regards to prestige in terms of skill, Code S is the king. It's the biggest tournament in the Mecca of Starcraft. The talent and skill level of Code S is off the charts....the depth is insane. Saying code S is not more prestigious than blizzcon is like saying the NBA championship is not more prestigious than the olympic gold medal in basketball. Look I love the foreign players and they sure as hell narrowed the gap. But the gap is still there and it's significant. Heromarine over Gumiho is completely unreasonable lol. One is a terran player from a region infamous for having weak terran players, the other is basically a byun's replacement terran horseman. Showtime over Dear isnt acceptable at all. Dear ranges from rock solid to complete beast in all matchups and does so in korea. Elazer vs Solar...it's solar and not even close. Even if we concede that elazer a better ZvZ than solar, Solar's ZvT and ZvP completely blow Elazer's out of the water. Korea is not the same as the zerg dominated WCS. Korean Zergs have to run the gauntlet of all the monster Korean Protoss and Terran players If Heromarine, showtime, elazer, and time had to CONSTANTLY compete against elite korean talent it would be a different matter. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
It’s a different beast where you need to be consistently good over a long stretch to get in, versus having a real hot streak of form at a good time or a favourable meta. I wouldn’t go as far as saying it places it above Code S at all, but you don’t have (relatively) bad Blizzcon champs like you do with some in Code S. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On October 24 2019 02:55 BerserkSword wrote: I'm not saying that Blizzcon was not/should not be held in high regard. I'm saying that with regards to prestige in terms of skill, Code S is the king. It's the biggest tournament in the Mecca of Starcraft. The talent and skill level of Code S is off the charts....the depth is insane. Saying code S is not more prestigious than blizzcon is like saying the NBA championship is not more prestigious than the olympic gold medal in basketball. Look I love the foreign players and they sure as hell narrowed the gap. But the gap is still there and it's significant. Heromarine over Gumiho is completely unreasonable lol. One is a terran player from a region infamous for having weak terran players, the other is basically a byun's replacement terran horseman. Showtime over Dear isnt acceptable at all. Dear ranges from rock solid to complete beast in all matchups and does so in korea. Elazer vs Solar...it's solar and not even close. Even if we concede that elazer a better ZvZ than solar, Solar's ZvT and ZvP completely blow Elazer's out of the water. Korea is not the same as the zerg dominated WCS. Korean Zergs have to run the gauntlet of all the monster Korean Protoss and Terran players If Heromarine, showtime, elazer, and time had to CONSTANTLY compete against elite korean talent it would be a different matter. Man, the Code S you are speaking of simply does not exist anymore; compared to the past, its depth is greatly reduced despite the later stages of the competition being as competitive as ever. In 2015 your basketball comparison would have made sense, but, in 2019, that's not the case. The, very different, idea we have of nowadays GSL affects how we respectively value the fairness of the Global Final spots given to those WCS players; Korea is ahead, the gap exists and it is significant. It's no way as large as you are trying to tell me. In any of case, while Solar's ZvT is immensely better than Elazer's while his ZvP is very good but we didn't get to see much of Elazer's after the patch, and it generally is Elazer's best. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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greenturtle23
86 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On October 24 2019 03:23 DieuCure wrote: Yep, we saw it at Katowice (the only real global tournament), the gap isn't immense, Showtime is better than Dear, and Elazer than Solar ! We saw it at GSL vs the World where no korean reached the final and foreigners came out ahead in map score? | ||
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ZugzwangSC
87 Posts
Did I mention I was stoked... | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On October 24 2019 03:33 Xain0n wrote: We saw it at GSL vs the World where no korean reached the final and foreigners came out ahead in map score? Sure, compare an invitational with the biggest tournament of the year. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On October 24 2019 04:31 DieuCure wrote: Sure, compare an invitational with the biggest tournament of the year. Sure, being invited to a tournament cIoses the gap by itself, it's not like you need to have reached a certain level to beat top tier players. I bet you were one of those predicting an easy 3-0 victory for Dark over Elazer. | ||
Poopi
France13022 Posts
On October 24 2019 04:42 Xain0n wrote: Sure, being invited to a tournament cIoses the gap by itself, it's not like you need to have reached a certain level to beat top tier players. I bet you were one of those predicting an easy 3-0 victory for Dark over Elazer. GSL vs The World only has ro16, do you really use that against IEM which has like a trillion foreigner vs koreans battle? Last IEM was a fucking blood bath, a lot of top players dropped left and right like flies. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
The last three IEM Katowice : -> 2017 two foreigners in ro12 (Nerchio and Serral) -> 2018 one foreigner in ro12 (Serral) -> 2019 two foreigners in ro12 (Neeb and Serral) | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Dear: 60.40% (61/101) Showtime: 43.75% (7/16) GuMiho: 53.47% (54/101) Heromarine: 39.47% (15/38) Solar: 61.11% (99/162) Elazer: 39.29% (11/28) As extra, Special has 51.81% (43/83) winrate so I would say he is top 20 player but based on all of these winrates, I cannot honestly say the same for the other foreigners. Note: In fairness, the foreigners had fewer opportunities than the Koreans and if they participated in GSL qualifiers and GSL ro32, I bet their winrate probably would've been higher. That's probably why Special has much higher winrates than the other foreigners. Overall, it seems to me that it is harder to get high vs-Korean offline winrates if you are a foreigner who does not participate in GSL, which makes Serral's winrates even more impressive. That also explains to me why Serral has worser winrates than Rogue or Dark but is still the favourite to win Blizzcon (and interestingly enough, he is entering Blizzcon with around the same winrate as last year). That said, I don't think this consideration is enough to close the gap in winrates that we're seeing here. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
At IEM Katowice, foreigners performed very bad both in 2018 and 2019, years in which their overall performance was considerably better than the one they had in 2017; that's a fact. While the fact Katowice has open qualifiers justifies a reduced foreigner presence at the tournament, it can't justify their absimal qualification rate to the playoff stage; if their level of skill would truly be that lower, no invitational would save them(see GSL vs The World, for example). | ||
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Kitai
United States886 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33708 Posts
On October 24 2019 01:49 Ej_ wrote: Showtime better than Dear, this is a truly hot take finally. Waxangel is right, TL.net is a forum of Korean elitists. Fans are here to make lore and arbitrary skill judgments. Pros are here to make money. Ergo, I include pros and their prioritization of the most monied tournaments into my lore and arbitrary skill judgments  | ||
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ProFalseIdol
70 Posts
On October 24 2019 06:58 Kitai wrote: I remember last year it seemed like Serral was the only one that had a chance of standing between Maru and his global championship. Then Maru got bopped harder than he bopped Zest in the Code S finals by a player everyone thought he would steamroll. Now he enters the tournament with lots of players that I think would be favored against him if they ever meet up. I hope he can flip expectations in a more positive direction this time. At least we'll (probably) finally get to see him face Serral in a meaningful BoX for the first time in almost 2 years. Maru has a history of getting destroyed by his team mates. One bitter defeat was in BlizzCon 2015 against Rogue. Does everyone think he would steamroll a team mate? | ||
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ProFalseIdol
70 Posts
On October 24 2019 00:54 Xain0n wrote: What year do you live in, actually? If BlizzCon wasn't held in high regard in the past, it was a wrong decision back then; and Code S being by far the most prestigious tournament on the planet...maybe it was true once, it's not the case anymore. Let's just look at the names you mentioned: Heromarine over Gumiho? Not unreasonable. Showtime over Dear? Acceptable. Elazer over Solar? Any day in a Zerg heavy meta. TIME over TY? Well, that's hard to justify, even if TIME's TvZ might match TY's. Overall, it's definitely not scandalous as you seem to imply Both Dear and Solar is a GSL Code S and SSL champions respectively. Showtime and Elazer are simply just WCS champions when MC, Hydra, Polt etc left. TIME is still new, no championship yet? I've never heard of Heromarine. Lols. Has any of these players even got a ro16 Code S? Just last year when Serral was a nobody as well, you can't even imagine comparing them given the results they have during korean-allowed tournaments as is evident with Showtime results in the current Blizzcon. Serral's hyped and amazing rise gives credit to those who he steamrolls. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 24 2019 05:26 Anc13nt wrote: I compared the Aligulac offline vs-Korean winrate (starting from beginning of this year, 1/1/2019) between Solar and Elazer, GuMiho and Heromarine, and finally Dear and Showtime. Dear: 60.40% (61/101) Showtime: 43.75% (7/16) GuMiho: 53.47% (54/101) Heromarine: 39.47% (15/38) Solar: 61.11% (99/162) Elazer: 39.29% (11/28) As extra, Special has 51.81% (43/83) winrate so I would say he is top 20 player but based on all of these winrates, I cannot honestly say the same for the other foreigners. Note: In fairness, the foreigners had fewer opportunities than the Koreans and if they participated in GSL qualifiers and GSL ro32, I bet their winrate probably would've been higher. That's probably why Special has much higher winrates than the other foreigners. Overall, it seems to me that it is harder to get high vs-Korean offline winrates if you are a foreigner who does not participate in GSL, which makes Serral's winrates even more impressive. That also explains to me why Serral has worser winrates than Rogue or Dark but is still the favourite to win Blizzcon (and interestingly enough, he is entering Blizzcon with around the same winrate as last year). That said, I don't think this consideration is enough to close the gap in winrates that we're seeing here. Probably not, good data though. Form fluctuates and matchups and brackets factor in, very difficult to sift through it all. Still compared to previous eras there’s a fair few foreigners now who you could see on a good run making GSL Ro16 or further. They all have weaknesses of various kinds but just from watching their actual gameplay it’s a lot cleaner and closer to what Koreans bring than in years passed. Plus perhaps some of the mental block of ‘going full foreigner’ has been broken through. Showtime when he plays good just looks really good, which isn’t always but even in defeat he can show great games (such as vs Dark). Special is great when he has a plan to bring, Elazer had his miracle run already etc. HeroMarine I think is the weakest for a GSL format because he plays very solidly but really predictably too and can be abused. If Blizzard ever do decide to pull out from funding the scene it would be awesome if the last year had a more unified circuit so we got to see the best foreigners facing the best Koreans more regularly. | ||
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