I m creating a poll concerning Nydus and his proposed change by Blizzard about duration between summoning. It s only to ask opinions from members, but as it comes from Blizzard I feel right without explications ? isn t it ?
Hello from France, members, I don t want to create a thread with bullshit discussion around nydus, so please doesn t answer to the post, i just wanna know how much this proposal is great, and if it could be changed before Blizzcon.
Poll: Summon Nydus Worm ability cooldown increased from 0 to 14
Urgently needed, before Blizzcon ! (238)
26%
Let s wait and see, after Blizzcon (79)
9%
It s no necessary ! Never (584)
65%
901 total votes
Your vote: Summon Nydus Worm ability cooldown increased from 0 to 14
(Vote): Urgently needed, before Blizzcon ! (Vote): Let s wait and see, after Blizzcon (Vote): It s no necessary ! Never
Increase the cost as well. I was thinking all this time (i play toss primarily) that the nydus cost somewhere around 150-200 minerals and that a zerg spamming it would eventually spend so much money that he would be in a big deficit if he didn't get much damage done . I only found out recently that it actually costs 50 mins 50 gas. Absolutely incredible it made its way into the game in this state. It's basically free, and can be spammed with 0 cooldown. Not usually very vocal about balance because I generally think its fine, but nydus is downright retarded in it's current state. Shame on the balance crew for letting this into the game.
Does Serral even nydus that much in non-ZvZ. He definitely uses it, but he has a pretty wide range of plays that he uses. Just curious if it would have that much of an effect on him since he is so good all around.
On October 10 2019 08:19 TentativePanda wrote: 14 seconds? Seems a bit too long. That's a long time in SC2
Its zero seconds if your first nydus worm completes. 14 is if the worm starts to form and 5 preemptive nukes hit that exact spot as it emerges. (Correct me if I am wrong please)
I would not endorse a patch before Blizcon. Let the tournament run on what people have been practicing. Pre tournament patches are not a good idea. Look at LCS (league of legends esports) They used to do a big patch right before worlds evrey year leading to ocasionaly broken game states being on the biggest stage their game has.
Id rather except the broken game state we currently have and maintain the competitive integrity of Blizcon.
On October 10 2019 08:19 TentativePanda wrote: 14 seconds? Seems a bit too long. That's a long time in SC2
Its zero seconds if your first nydus worm completes. 14 is is the worm starts to form and 5 preemptive nukes hit that exact spot as it emerges. (Correct me if I am wrong please)
You are correct as far as my understanding is. The cooldown starts immediately. If the worm completes, there is no change between now and post patch. If it gets killed early, there will be x amount of seconds before it can be recast.
On October 10 2019 08:52 washikie wrote: I would not endorse a patch before Blizcon. Let the tournament run on what people have been practicing. Pre tournament patches are not a good idea. Look at LCS (league of legends esports) They used to do a big patch right before worlds evrey year leading to ocasionaly broken game states being on the biggest stage their game has.
Id rather except the broken game state we currently have and maintain the competitive integrity of Blizcon.
It s not as you re changing everything right ?
Then, AlphaStar should probably use this ability too many times...
On October 10 2019 08:52 washikie wrote: I would not endorse a patch before Blizcon. Let the tournament run on what people have been practicing. Pre tournament patches are not a good idea. Look at LCS (league of legends esports) They used to do a big patch right before worlds evrey year leading to ocasionaly broken game states being on the biggest stage their game has.
Id rather except the broken game state we currently have and maintain the competitive integrity of Blizcon.
Yeah I watched LCS a lot in 2015 as well as the worlds and their right before Worlds patch was downright stupid, with the broken Gangplank and one side (it matters for picks and bans) having a way better winrate than the other. This and the pink ward "bug" that made fnatic lose against the koreans.
Having a patch right before the biggest tournament of the world is a bad idea, and they won't do it. BUT they should have acted on some things before imho. We'll have to see how it unfolds at BlizzCon but I sure hope it won't be a ZvZ finals.
On October 10 2019 08:52 washikie wrote: I would not endorse a patch before Blizcon. Let the tournament run on what people have been practicing. Pre tournament patches are not a good idea. Look at LCS (league of legends esports) They used to do a big patch right before worlds evrey year leading to ocasionaly broken game states being on the biggest stage their game has.
Id rather except the broken game state we currently have and maintain the competitive integrity of Blizcon.
I sure hope it won't be a ZvZ finals.
Better hope Dark, Rogue, and Serral end up on the same side of the bracket. I don't see any of the current protoss or terran beating them.
On October 10 2019 08:52 washikie wrote: I would not endorse a patch before Blizcon. Let the tournament run on what people have been practicing. Pre tournament patches are not a good idea. Look at LCS (league of legends esports) They used to do a big patch right before worlds evrey year leading to ocasionaly broken game states being on the biggest stage their game has.
Id rather except the broken game state we currently have and maintain the competitive integrity of Blizcon.
I sure hope it won't be a ZvZ finals.
Better hope Dark, Rogue, and Serral end up on the same side of the bracket. I don't see any of the current protoss or terran beating them.
I dunno about Rogue. He's not shown anything substantial in the ZvT match-up like basically all year. In online cups he perpetually sucks against mech (and has done so for the past 3 years), including those his total score is 0-4, 1-8 vs TY this year, and if you disregard those, he's barely played any matches against Terran. Let alone ones he could play at Blizzcon. And just assuming he's strong because the meta favors Zerg is thin ice.
On October 10 2019 08:19 TentativePanda wrote: 14 seconds? Seems a bit too long. That's a long time in SC2
Its zero seconds if your first nydus worm completes. 14 is is the worm starts to form and 5 preemptive nukes hit that exact spot as it emerges. (Correct me if I am wrong please)
You are correct as far as my understanding is. The cooldown starts immediately. If the worm completes, there is no change between now and post patch. If it gets killed early, there will be x amount of seconds before it can be recast.
Ah ok thanks for the clarification. In that case I approve of that change as well as a decrease in unload speed
On October 11 2019 05:37 royalroadweed wrote: I dont think we should have a patch so soon to Blizzcon. Not opposed to less a zerg favored map pool though.
Agreed. It would be cool if the Blizzcon map pool was made up of maps from throughout the year's ladder seasons rather than just this season. That would solve the map problem without requiring a bunch of new maps, plus they already know the statistics of those old maps so they could pick the most evenly balanced of them all.
On October 11 2019 05:37 royalroadweed wrote: I dont think we should have a patch so soon to Blizzcon. Not opposed to less a zerg favored map pool though.
The Broodlord fix would be fine IMO. (range leash broken stuff, it seems Blizzard wasn't thinking about this when they assigned Thors to counter BLs)
On October 11 2019 08:09 RealityTheGreat wrote: Macro teleportation should be limited. Just have a look at the mothership and BC.
Normally I wouldn't suggest any changes so close to Blizzcon but with how inevitable a ZvZ finals feel (Honestly with the right bracket an all zerg top 4 is possible with this meta) I will take any changes to prevent that.
The main nydus should get destroyed once the exit is destroyed. You have to make it harder for progamers to use nydus'. At the moment players can just hotkey it once and spam nydus exits whenever the CD is up.. at their level of play that's just too easy to do.
By destroying the main nydus players would need to remake and re-hotkey it. High lvl games are hectic so this change would not only nerf nydus play, it would also increase the skill ceiling. It might sound like an easy thing to execute but it does make a difference. Well, at least we're making progress right? We went from having invincible spawning nydus' to where we are now. That's progress.. even tho it's at a snail's pace.
Sadly this has always been a huge issue with SC2 balancing. It takes them 1-2 years to make straightforward/obvious changes. As a progamer (general mindset of one) there's no worse feeling than seeing a game you understand on a different level being balanced based on community sentiment or ladder data (data is important to an extent but it's still not representative of the highest level of play). There's only so much knowledge you can have without having played the game at the highest level.
There's so much i can say about this topic but out of respect to the previous balance team (back in WoL) i choose not to. They really do care about putting out the best product, unfortunately that's not always enough.
On October 11 2019 05:37 royalroadweed wrote: I dont think we should have a patch so soon to Blizzcon. Not opposed to less a zerg favored map pool though.
The Broodlord fix would be fine IMO. (range leash broken stuff, it seems Blizzard wasn't thinking about this when they assigned Thors to counter BLs)
tbh, i prefer a zvz finals over a final like dark vs ty.
what people forget is, that the BEST players should be in the final and if be best players are atm dark and serral (wouldnt count rogue at the same skill level), then so be it a zvz final. and tbh, everytime i watch a high lvl zvz, its an absolutely great match to watch. especially if serral is one of the zergs. almost all serral vs reynor matches were great (the last one wasnt, where reynor got squashed 0-4). the last korean zvz between dark and rogue was just great. and if you remember that zvz between rogue and serral last year at blizzcon.. it was also an absolute great series to watch.
so i dont really get the hat about zvz.. its BY FAR the best mirror matchup to watch on high lvl. and again, just the way ty got crushed by dark.. which toss/terran should stand a chance against dark/serral atm? with innovation not even being at blizzcon this year.. only maru and stats come to my mind. and if classic makes it to blizzcon, one of these three will fall out in groupstage.
On October 14 2019 02:05 dalaiisc2 wrote: tbh, i prefer a zvz finals over a final like dark vs ty.
what people forget is, that the BEST players should be in the final and if be best players are atm dark and serral (wouldnt count rogue at the same skill level), then so be it a zvz final. and tbh, everytime i watch a high lvl zvz, its an absolutely great match to watch. especially if serral is one of the zergs. almost all serral vs reynor matches were great (the last one wasnt, where reynor got squashed 0-4). the last korean zvz between dark and rogue was just great. and if you remember that zvz between rogue and serral last year at blizzcon.. it was also an absolute great series to watch.
so i dont really get the hat about zvz.. its BY FAR the best mirror matchup to watch on high lvl. and again, just the way ty got crushed by dark.. which toss/terran should stand a chance against dark/serral atm? with innovation not even being at blizzcon this year.. only maru and stats come to my mind. and if classic makes it to blizzcon, one of these three will fall out in groupstage.
if they are so good and outperform than all the others, a nerf on Nydus will not a problem for them. Normally a balance adjustment before the biggest event of the year is terrible, but the current balance is totally broken, I don’t expect the game will be worse if the Nydus get nerfed.
Today’s CTC final is really painful to watch. No matter how good the terran play, unstopped nydus can save the Zerg back to game.
On October 14 2019 02:05 dalaiisc2 wrote:so i dont really get the hat about zvz.. its BY FAR the best mirror matchup to watch on high lvl. and again, just the way ty got crushed by dark.. which toss/terran should stand a chance against dark/serral atm? with innovation not even being at blizzcon this year.. only maru and stats come to my mind. and if classic makes it to blizzcon, one of these three will fall out in groupstage.
Convenient how the best players end up being the same race. Terran and toss having no players likely to win championships right now must be because they all got lazy at the same time.
On October 14 2019 02:05 dalaiisc2 wrote:so i dont really get the hat about zvz.. its BY FAR the best mirror matchup to watch on high lvl. and again, just the way ty got crushed by dark.. which toss/terran should stand a chance against dark/serral atm? with innovation not even being at blizzcon this year.. only maru and stats come to my mind. and if classic makes it to blizzcon, one of these three will fall out in groupstage.
Convenient how the best players end up being the same race. Terran and toss having no players likely to win championships right now must be because they all got lazy at the same time.
Funny how that happens right after they nerf a race which was statistically underperforming to begin with
On October 11 2019 14:40 TT1 wrote: The main nydus should get destroyed once the exit is destroyed. You have to make it harder for progamers to use nydus'. At the moment players can just hotkey it once and spam nydus exits whenever the CD is up.. at their level of play that's just too easy to do.
By destroying the main nydus players would need to remake and re-hotkey their nydus. High lvl games are hectic so this change would not only nerf nydus play, it would also increase the skill ceiling. It might sound like an easy thing to execute but it does make a difference. Well, at least we're making progress right? We went from having invincible spawning nydus' to where we are now. That's progress.. even tho it's at a snail's pace.
Sadly this has always been a huge issue with SC2 balancing. It takes them 1-2 years to make straightforward/obvious changes. As a progamer (general mindset of one) there's no worse feeling than seeing a game you understand on a different level being balanced based on community sentiment or ladder data (data is important to an extent but it's still not representative of the highest level of play). There's only so much knowledge you can have without having played the game at the highest level.
There's so much i can say about this topic but out of respect to the previous balance team (back in WoL) i choose not to. They really do care about putting out the best product, unfortunately that's not always enough.
You'd have to significantly lower the cost of nydus, I'm talking to something like 50/50.
Each nydus attempt would be 150/100 with that proposed change, even that is probably not enough, it'd really just never get used again, not because of the "APM", because if it's good zergs will just build multiple, but because of the cost.
A better solution really is postponing the nydus strength to later on, which os what blizz is doing.
kind of a silly poll. why would terrans or protoss want to keep nydus strong? Only zergs would vote for that. also 1 yes option and 2 no options to split the votes is rigged. the global finals are a week away. why would u remove the metagame for zergs?
On October 14 2019 07:57 CicadaSC wrote: kind of a silly poll. why would terrans or protoss want to keep nydus strong? Only zergs would vote for that. also 1 yes option and 2 no options to split the votes is rigged. the global finals are a week away. why would u remove the metagame for zergs?
I'd bet $100 that even with a nydus nerf a Zerg would still win Blizzcon. You could remove Serral and nerf nydus and I'd still be confident in a Zerg victory.
On October 14 2019 07:57 CicadaSC wrote: kind of a silly poll. why would terrans or protoss want to keep nydus strong? Only zergs would vote for that. also 1 yes option and 2 no options to split the votes is rigged. the global finals are a week away. why would u remove the metagame for zergs?
I'd bet $100 that even with a nydus nerf a Zerg would still win Blizzcon. You could remove Serral and nerf nydus and I'd still be confident in a Zerg victory.
Feels like balance is going back towards WOL days of people complaining nonstop about Zerg, BL / Infestor =p
Guys, it's too late! Besides, IMO, ZvZ is the best mirror match up right now. I hate PvP with the silly protoss shenanigans (unless it's SoS playing) and TvT is kind of meh.
On October 14 2019 17:11 Poaktree wrote: Guys, it's too late! Besides, IMO, ZvZ is the best mirror match up right now. I hate PvP with the silly protoss shenanigans (unless it's SoS playing) and TvT is kind of meh.
Yeah, it's like there's only mirrors to be played... don't get the response... it's to balance ZvX where X isn't Z...
On October 14 2019 07:57 CicadaSC wrote: kind of a silly poll. why would terrans or protoss want to keep nydus strong? Only zergs would vote for that. also 1 yes option and 2 no options to split the votes is rigged. the global finals are a week away. why would u remove the metagame for zergs?
I'd bet $100 that even with a nydus nerf a Zerg would still win Blizzcon. You could remove Serral and nerf nydus and I'd still be confident in a Zerg victory.
Feels like balance is going back towards WOL days of people complaining nonstop about Zerg, BL / Infestor =p
And for good reason...
Did you watch the first WCS? It was a huge blow to SC2 because it ended up being an almost unwatchable broodlord/infestor vs immortal/sentry all-in fest. The top 3 being devided by Korean pvps did not help the slightest either.
On October 10 2019 08:52 washikie wrote: I would not endorse a patch before Blizcon. Let the tournament run on what people have been practicing. Pre tournament patches are not a good idea. Look at LCS (league of legends esports) They used to do a big patch right before worlds evrey year leading to ocasionaly broken game states being on the biggest stage their game has.
Id rather except the broken game state we currently have and maintain the competitive integrity of Blizcon.
I sure hope it won't be a ZvZ finals.
Better hope Dark, Rogue, and Serral end up on the same side of the bracket. I don't see any of the current protoss or terran beating them.
I dunno about Rogue. He's not shown anything substantial in the ZvT match-up like basically all year. In online cups he perpetually sucks against mech (and has done so for the past 3 years), including those his total score is 0-4, 1-8 vs TY this year, and if you disregard those, he's barely played any matches against Terran. Let alone ones he could play at Blizzcon. And just assuming he's strong because the meta favors Zerg is thin ice.
Since start of GSL S3, where Rogues resurgence this year started, he is 14-7 against Terran. Not bad considering its historically his worst matchup by far. And who from the Blizzcon terrans can really pose a threat to top form Rogue? Only Maru, right? Even if TY went in the end, I would not bet on him to beat current Rogue. Just remember 2017 and 2018 Blizzcon and 2018 Katowice. Rogue eliminated TY in all 3.
Lol why did everything vote yes in the poll, that's just such a terrible opinion.
Nydus is definitely too strong/too cheap/too easy to execute but at this point it's not centralising the meta like it was before the original nerfs. And even if it was, it's still way too close to Blizzcon to even consider it to be a good idea. Nydus is an aspect of what makes zerg a bit too strong right now but it's not THE aspect, so to do a quick fix before Blizzcon for just the nydus would actually be so dumb and can't believe you guys think that would be a good idea.
After Blizzcon is done we can go crazy on the nerfs but a week before Blizzcon? lol
On October 14 2019 19:49 blooblooblahblah wrote: Lol why did everything vote yes in the poll, that's just such a terrible opinion.
Nydus is definitely too strong/too cheap/too easy to execute but at this point it's not centralising the meta like it was before the original nerfs. And even if it was, it's still way too close to Blizzcon to even consider it to be a good idea. Nydus is an aspect of what makes zerg a bit too strong right now but it's not THE aspect, so to do a quick fix before Blizzcon for just the nydus would actually be so dumb and can't believe you guys think that would be a good idea.
After Blizzcon is done we can go crazy on the nerfs but a week before Blizzcon? lol
The current balance is already broken and you prefer like 4 zergs are in the top 4? Since Zerg is already a little op in the late game because of broodlord + infestors, a nerf on nydus won’t make Zerg unplayable.
All fans just want a exciting Blizzcon and I personally don’t want a Reynor vs Serral final (dark Serral rogue eliminate all other races and Reynor takes Korean Zerg down)
On October 10 2019 08:52 washikie wrote: I would not endorse a patch before Blizcon. Let the tournament run on what people have been practicing. Pre tournament patches are not a good idea. Look at LCS (league of legends esports) They used to do a big patch right before worlds evrey year leading to ocasionaly broken game states being on the biggest stage their game has.
Id rather except the broken game state we currently have and maintain the competitive integrity of Blizcon.
I sure hope it won't be a ZvZ finals.
Better hope Dark, Rogue, and Serral end up on the same side of the bracket. I don't see any of the current protoss or terran beating them.
I dunno about Rogue. He's not shown anything substantial in the ZvT match-up like basically all year. In online cups he perpetually sucks against mech (and has done so for the past 3 years), including those his total score is 0-4, 1-8 vs TY this year, and if you disregard those, he's barely played any matches against Terran. Let alone ones he could play at Blizzcon. And just assuming he's strong because the meta favors Zerg is thin ice.
Rogue in late 2017 was a god against mech. Going much against him was the reason INno lost to him in that super tournament (the one without which his blizzcon run would have never happened).
It's true he's barely played ZvT this year, but Rogue is the kind who usually shows up in the big weekenders. And terran is the kind of race that doesn't.
On October 14 2019 20:23 CraigWT wrote: The current balance is already broken and you prefer like 4 zergs are in the top 4? Since Zerg is already a little op in the late game because of broodlord + infestors, a nerf on nydus won’t make Zerg unplayable.
All fans just want a exciting Blizzcon and I personally don’t want a Reynor vs Serral final (dark Serral rogue eliminate all other races and Reynor takes Korean Zerg down)
Don't know about you guys, but I'd love to see 8 zergs in top 8. And reynor vs serral is for sure one of the best grand finals possible.
On October 14 2019 19:49 blooblooblahblah wrote: Lol why did everything vote yes in the poll, that's just such a terrible opinion.
Nydus is definitely too strong/too cheap/too easy to execute but at this point it's not centralising the meta like it was before the original nerfs. And even if it was, it's still way too close to Blizzcon to even consider it to be a good idea. Nydus is an aspect of what makes zerg a bit too strong right now but it's not THE aspect, so to do a quick fix before Blizzcon for just the nydus would actually be so dumb and can't believe you guys think that would be a good idea.
After Blizzcon is done we can go crazy on the nerfs but a week before Blizzcon? lol
The current balance is already broken and you prefer like 4 zergs are in the top 4? Since Zerg is already a little op in the late game because of broodlord + infestors, a nerf on nydus won’t make Zerg unplayable.
All fans just want a exciting Blizzcon and I personally don’t want a Reynor vs Serral final (dark Serral rogue eliminate all other races and Reynor takes Korean Zerg down)
You just can't patch a game a week before Blizzcon lol, it's absurd. This change has huge implications on every matchup, but the matchup it affects the most if ZvZ lmao so you're completely compromising the results of the tournament and these pro player's lives for your own entertainment.
It's not about making zerg unplayable, changing the meta a week before blizzcon invalidates a lot of the practice that the players have been doing (again, especially in ZvZ lol). And you'll still see broodlord/infestor anyway.
EPT
