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With performances like this I bet he'll even manage to get to the second place on the power rank and piss off more people.
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On July 01 2019 12:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
With performances like this I bet he'll even manage to get to the second place on the power rank and piss off more people.
yeah he'll definitely be second. if TL is edgy enough maybe he'll be first
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Canada8988 Posts
Great job by Serral, barring a massive patch or meta shift, I'm starting to really beleive in another sweep of GSLvsTW and Blizzcon.
But appart from him I have to say it was an abysmal performance by the rest of the foreing crew: 28-93 in map and 9-40 in match vs koreans. (with almost half the losses beeing on Creator) It really feel like they aren't getting any closer.
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TY won every game he proxied and lost every game he didn't. Clearly Maru was right all along.
TY also copied Inno's 2base tank push that won WESG (same build, same map, same opponent, same Game 7 decider). But then he chickened out and backed off. And lost.
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Serral is the best player in SC2 history. Undisputed champion!
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Germany25649 Posts
This Serral guy is pretty good at this game.
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It's crazy to me that Serral can be so consistently great when his day-to-day Europe/America opponents can't provide him with the same level of competition as top tier Koreans. Seriously impressive.
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Great job Serral! Still the champ!
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Serral is only person on the planet that can improve just by theory crafting. He does not even need opponents.
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Another insane win by Serral - he is amazing!
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Great Games and great fun as always!
Hoping for #1 Powerrank for the memes but i guess #2 it is because no Dark/Classic/Maru at HSC.
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Serral did show some weakness that last series, but I believe most of it can be explain by that it was late at night at the end of a long tournament.
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Congratulations to the winner of this particular tournament. A strong performance.
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United States33161 Posts
On July 01 2019 13:39 MockHamill wrote:
Serral is only person on the planet that can improve just by theory crafting. He does not even need opponents.
Well, Dark did say he practiced against the AI in preparation for the GSL finals, so maybe there is something to the idea 
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On July 01 2019 16:15 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 13:39 MockHamill wrote:
Serral is only person on the planet that can improve just by theory crafting. He does not even need opponents. Well, Dark did say he practiced against the AI in preparation for the GSL finals, so maybe there is something to the idea
Reminds me of how smash pros practice against Lvl 3 AI (very weak), just to hone their combos. If you have a clear idea of some specific target and improving execution thereof, that works fine. Maybe it's enough for Starcraft too.
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On July 01 2019 16:15 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 13:39 MockHamill wrote:
Serral is only person on the planet that can improve just by theory crafting. He does not even need opponents. Well, Dark did say he practiced against the AI in preparation for the GSL finals, so maybe there is something to the idea
INno does it as well!
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it kinda makes me cry T_T. The times of proleague with a lot of teams, and lot of people in EU playing. And players like Puma, Thorzain,MVP, there was a time with a lot of terrans and mid range practice partners, I guess time goes forward and eSports its not like sports where a game stabilizes and grows steadily like football.
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On July 01 2019 16:15 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 13:39 MockHamill wrote:
Serral is only person on the planet that can improve just by theory crafting. He does not even need opponents. Well, Dark did say he practiced against the AI in preparation for the GSL finals, so maybe there is something to the idea
That's how I practiced for my first LRSL finals too. Great minds think alike 
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Serral did bleed against Stats and were taken to the brink by TY but he looked incredibly dominant. I missed the games vs Stats but against TY even if it was close score wise in the finals he looked clearly the better player. He is just too good and it doesn't even look like he breaks a sweat. Not a Serral fan but how can anyone stay not a Serral fan
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How much money was collected with the donation run for hsc20?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 01 2019 17:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
Serral did bleed against Stats and were taken to the brink by TY but he looked incredibly dominant. I missed the games vs Stats but against TY even if it was close score wise in the finals he looked clearly the better player. He is just too good and it doesn't even look like he breaks a sweat. Not a Serral fan but how can anyone stay not a Serral fan
It's actually easy when you have some fanboys who make it impossible
Some preivous cases with similar zealous fans - JD, FlasH
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this tournaments always delivers great games. Congrats Serral for taking down some beasts and all the rest for some amazing games. I am looking at you Elazer vs Zest.
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On July 01 2019 17:23 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 17:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
Serral did bleed against Stats and were taken to the brink by TY but he looked incredibly dominant. I missed the games vs Stats but against TY even if it was close score wise in the finals he looked clearly the better player. He is just too good and it doesn't even look like he breaks a sweat. Not a Serral fan but how can anyone stay not a Serral fan It's actually easy when you have some fanboys who make it impossible Some preivous cases with similar zealous fans - JD, FlasH
I rather enjoy Serral's play and his interviews. He's a solid macro player with a dry sense of humor, doesn't cheese all the time or talk trash. He has great scouting, reactions, and composure. At his strongest he reminds me of Flash in the old days. And he doesn't let it go to his head. I can say very little against Serral the player or Serral the man.
But Serral the avatar as created by the community, the mythical, legendary, godlike outline onto which rabid fanboys project their every dream of personal invincibility–well, not so much. You can't get in a word edgewise. Anything less than sycophantic fawning or unctuous worship draws the ire of a surprising number of people with apparently nothing better to do than patrol every last thread and comment to defend their lord and saviour from the slightest stain on his honor. Which of course then brings in his detractors, and both sides then argue back and forth ad infinitum, on any and every topic related in the slightest way and many that are unrelated at all, until a random passer-by who happened to wander into the Starcraft community could be forgiven for thinking that the name is actually Serralcraft.
WCS? Serral is playing there, better talk about him even though he's in the other qualifier, or on the opposite side of the bracket, or already finished his series, and won't play until next day or week or month.
GSL? Serral should play there against the Koreans and oh by the way here is how I think Serral will perform or win or lose or juggle with his feet while walking on his hands and playing the ukulele.
Tournament results? Well Serral won again, or he wasn't there and he would have won, or he got knocked out due to bad bracket luck and he should have won. Or it's actually Fortnite but yknow Serral would do great there too. And win. Did I mention winning?
Power rankings? Reeee why isn't Serral here instead of there which is obviously the only correct and perfectly objective and absolutely unquestionably right place.
And on, and on, and on, and on. I remind myself that Serral is not responsible for the actions of his obnoxious fans, but even so I struggle not to think worse of him for it, and often wish he'll lose just to silence them. Which is a real shame, because none of it is his fault. It's not unique to Serral, of course. Maru was nearly as bad last year, and the same applied to JD and Flash in their heyday. Still, I would contend that any one player who dictates the flow of almost every conversation related to the game he plays comes at the detriment of the rest of the players and the community.
Anyhow, that's my rant.
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Germany3367 Posts
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Congratz Serral, but also fantastic showing from Zest and TY. I missed Inno though 
+ Show Spoiler +no smoke without fire tho. Serral's fanbase reacts to those few who go around this forum entering every thread celebrating his victories (which were plenty) just only so they could sell their hurt opinions as facts, meanwhile cautiously ignoring real facts all to turn celebrations into shit throwing contest. Its OK to be a fan of anyone. Even an "overzealos" fan - that happens in every sport. Its not ok to be an anti-fan. In ANY sport. That's just bad taste and lack of social awareness imo.
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how did elazer beat solar?
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On July 01 2019 18:13 RatzBarcode wrote:
how did elazer beat solar?
Reynor beat him too in group stage. Daily practice with Serral does that to your ZvZ
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On July 01 2019 12:37 Nakajin wrote:
Great job by Serral, barring a massive patch or meta shift, I'm starting to really beleive in another sweep of GSLvsTW and Blizzcon.
But appart from him I have to say it was an abysmal performance by the rest of the foreing crew: 28-93 in map and 9-40 in match vs koreans. (with almost half the losses beeing on Creator) It really feel like they aren't getting any closer.
There's really 4 tiers of foreigners.
Serral
Neeb, Scarlett, Special, Reynor
uthermal, dns, elazer, etc
rest of NA and EU
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China6327 Posts
HSC is like the GDQ of Starcraft.
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On July 01 2019 12:45 pvsnp wrote:
TY won every game he proxied and lost every game he didn't. Clearly Maru was right all along.
TY also copied Inno's 2base tank push that won WESG (same build, same map, same opponent, same Game 7 decider). But then he chickened out and backed off. And lost.
TY decided to not do the all-in cuz serral countered it perfectly with roach/ravangers. If he would have committed, he would have been crushed.
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On July 01 2019 18:20 RatzBarcode wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 12:37 Nakajin wrote:
Great job by Serral, barring a massive patch or meta shift, I'm starting to really beleive in another sweep of GSLvsTW and Blizzcon.
But appart from him I have to say it was an abysmal performance by the rest of the foreing crew: 28-93 in map and 9-40 in match vs koreans. (with almost half the losses beeing on Creator) It really feel like they aren't getting any closer. There's really 4 tiers of foreigners. Serral Neeb, Scarlett, Special, Reynor uthermal, dns, elazer, etc rest of NA and EU
What rest of NA?
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Do we know how much they raise in the end for HSC xx ?
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TY was in good spot but sometimes his defaults didn't allow him to win. He has very good build and various builds. He is very smart but sometimes his execution isn't good enough and his macro to. I think in some moment if you replace him by Innovation just for a few moments he would won this final.
But congrats Serral for this trophy. I think without a balance patch or something like a very big meta switch
Serral will win pretty every big tournament of the of the year he looked very dominant even against top players like soO or TY ( GSL vs the World Asus rog and Blizzcon. )
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On July 01 2019 17:59 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 17:23 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 17:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
Serral did bleed against Stats and were taken to the brink by TY but he looked incredibly dominant. I missed the games vs Stats but against TY even if it was close score wise in the finals he looked clearly the better player. He is just too good and it doesn't even look like he breaks a sweat. Not a Serral fan but how can anyone stay not a Serral fan It's actually easy when you have some fanboys who make it impossible Some preivous cases with similar zealous fans - JD, FlasH I rather enjoy Serral's play and his interviews. He's a solid macro player with a dry sense of humor, doesn't cheese all the time or talk trash. He has great scouting, reactions, and composure. At his strongest he reminds me of Flash in the old days. And he doesn't let it go to his head. I can say very little against Serral the player or Serral the man. But Serral the avatar as created by the community, the mythical, legendary, godlike outline onto which rabid fanboys project their every dream of personal invincibility–well, not so much. You can't get in a word edgewise. Anything less than sycophantic fawning or unctuous worship draws the ire of a surprising number of people with apparently nothing better to do than patrol every last thread and comment to defend their lord and saviour from the slightest stain on his honor. Which of course then brings in his detractors, and both sides then argue back and forth ad infinitum, on any and every topic related in the slightest way and many that are unrelated at all, until a random passer-by who happened to wander into the Starcraft community could be forgiven for thinking that the name is actually Serralcraft. WCS? Serral is playing there, better talk about him even though he's in the other qualifier, or on the opposite side of the bracket, or already finished his series, and won't play until next day or week or month. GSL? Serral should play there against the Koreans and oh by the way here is how I think Serral will perform or win or lose or juggle with his feet while walking on his hands and playing the ukulele. Tournament results? Well Serral won again, or he wasn't there and he would have won, or he got knocked out due to bad bracket luck and he should have won. Or it's actually Fortnite but yknow Serral would do great there too. And win. Did I mention winning? Power rankings? Reeee why isn't Serral here instead of there which is obviously the only correct and perfectly objective and absolutely unquestionably right place. And on, and on, and on, and on. I remind myself that Serral is not responsible for the actions of his obnoxious fans, but even so I struggle not to think worse of him for it, and often wish he'll lose just to silence them. Which is a real shame, because none of it is his fault. It's not unique to Serral, of course. Maru was nearly as bad last year, and the same applied to JD and Flash in their heyday. Still, I would contend that any one player who dictates the flow of almost every conversation related to the game he plays comes at the detriment of the rest of the players and the community. Anyhow, that's my rant.
You are new to TeamLiquid? :D
Jokes aside, this is true.
Also for so many other players here that got hyped to the biggest spheres.
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On July 01 2019 18:20 RatzBarcode wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 12:37 Nakajin wrote:
Great job by Serral, barring a massive patch or meta shift, I'm starting to really beleive in another sweep of GSLvsTW and Blizzcon.
But appart from him I have to say it was an abysmal performance by the rest of the foreing crew: 28-93 in map and 9-40 in match vs koreans. (with almost half the losses beeing on Creator) It really feel like they aren't getting any closer. There's really 4 tiers of foreigners. Serral Neeb, Scarlett, Special, Reynor uthermal, dns, elazer, etc rest of NA and EU
this is so wrong talk to the pros check check the results and u get other picture
typical usa view putting reynor and scarlet to high
also heromarine is nr 1 eu terran since ages
uthermal getting crushed by heromarine and lambo on a regular bases
tier 1 serral
tier 2 neeb showtime heromarine elazer lambo reynor special
tier 3 uthermal harstem scarlett ,,,etc
rest of na is a joke there are like at least 20 eu players before the next na player
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Serral the savior of sc2. Congrats!
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On July 01 2019 18:55 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 18:20 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 01 2019 12:37 Nakajin wrote:
Great job by Serral, barring a massive patch or meta shift, I'm starting to really beleive in another sweep of GSLvsTW and Blizzcon.
But appart from him I have to say it was an abysmal performance by the rest of the foreing crew: 28-93 in map and 9-40 in match vs koreans. (with almost half the losses beeing on Creator) It really feel like they aren't getting any closer. There's really 4 tiers of foreigners. Serral Neeb, Scarlett, Special, Reynor uthermal, dns, elazer, etc rest of NA and EU What rest of NA?
Good to know Lambo, Mlord, Clem, Showtime are na tier or the etc is that extended ?
(And wtf dns, he is not even the best french protoss, not the same categorie as the others mentionned)
Edit : Gratz Serral, I prefered Stephano/Life but it feels good to have a foreigner doing consistently well against the koreans.
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On July 01 2019 19:38 tilhorizon wrote:
this is so wrong talk to the pros check check the results and u get other picture
typical usa view putting reynor and scarlet to high
also heromarine is nr 1 eu terran since ages
uthermal getting crushed by heromarine and lambo on a regular bases
tier 1 serral
tier 2 neeb showtime heromarine elazer lambo reynor special
tier 3 uthermal harstem scarlett ,,,etc
rest of na is a joke there are like at least 20 eu players before the next na player
You say its typical usa view to put Reynor too high (tier 2) and then you go on to put him equally high (tier 2). lol so funny 
Hope to see Serral keep up these results, would be fun if TY starts making some progress in GSL as well!
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On July 01 2019 17:59 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 17:23 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 17:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
Serral did bleed against Stats and were taken to the brink by TY but he looked incredibly dominant. I missed the games vs Stats but against TY even if it was close score wise in the finals he looked clearly the better player. He is just too good and it doesn't even look like he breaks a sweat. Not a Serral fan but how can anyone stay not a Serral fan It's actually easy when you have some fanboys who make it impossible Some preivous cases with similar zealous fans - JD, FlasH I rather enjoy Serral's play and his interviews. He's a solid macro player with a dry sense of humor, doesn't cheese all the time or talk trash. He has great scouting, reactions, and composure. At his strongest he reminds me of Flash in the old days. And he doesn't let it go to his head. I can say very little against Serral the player or Serral the man. But Serral the avatar as created by the community, the mythical, legendary, godlike outline onto which rabid fanboys project their every dream of personal invincibility–well, not so much. You can't get in a word edgewise. Anything less than sycophantic fawning or unctuous worship draws the ire of a surprising number of people with apparently nothing better to do than patrol every last thread and comment to defend their lord and saviour from the slightest stain on his honor. Which of course then brings in his detractors, and both sides then argue back and forth ad infinitum, on any and every topic related in the slightest way and many that are unrelated at all, until a random passer-by who happened to wander into the Starcraft community could be forgiven for thinking that the name is actually Serralcraft. WCS? Serral is playing there, better talk about him even though he's in the other qualifier, or on the opposite side of the bracket, or already finished his series, and won't play until next day or week or month. GSL? Serral should play there against the Koreans and oh by the way here is how I think Serral will perform or win or lose or juggle with his feet while walking on his hands and playing the ukulele. Tournament results? Well Serral won again, or he wasn't there and he would have won, or he got knocked out due to bad bracket luck and he should have won. Or it's actually Fortnite but yknow Serral would do great there too. And win. Did I mention winning? Power rankings? Reeee why isn't Serral here instead of there which is obviously the only correct and perfectly objective and absolutely unquestionably right place. And on, and on, and on, and on. I remind myself that Serral is not responsible for the actions of his obnoxious fans, but even so I struggle not to think worse of him for it, and often wish he'll lose just to silence them. Which is a real shame, because none of it is his fault. It's not unique to Serral, of course. Maru was nearly as bad last year, and the same applied to JD and Flash in their heyday. Still, I would contend that any one player who dictates the flow of almost every conversation related to the game he plays comes at the detriment of the rest of the players and the community. Anyhow, that's my rant.
Good writing.
But cant you see why this is happening ? Years after years after years we have been waiting for a foreinger player, that does regularly go head to head with Koreans and even win sometimes. All these years Korean "elitists" have shunned any foreingers or even belittled their plays all the time. I cant remember all the names here of course, but Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett.......and the other few that have shown talent and ambition to match the Koreans. All the time you have had to read "they are fluke" or "they never win a tournament, when xxxxx Korean player is participating" etc. Then there comes Serral from nowhere and suddenly stomps all Koreans to the ground. I can propably speak for many of the "zealots" here to say that it felt Gooooooooooood.
Still, even in 2018, there were some active writers here that liked to point out the terms "Fluke"...."Joke compared to Maru"....."Only wins in foreinger tournaments". This tournament finally kinda put an end to the speculations, where the last of the Titans called "TY" would wipe the floor with Serral if they ever met or played a decent macro game. And yeah, after having a bit rocky start in 2019 (meaning he didnt win all tournaments), he still managed to swipe TY twice with no sweat at all. Of course now the excuse propably is that "TY wasnt at his best" or "Serral just luckied out" or some other bullshit.
Cant you guys really even once say, that he was the best player in this tournament ? Or that he is one of the best if not the best player in the world atm ? You dont have to admit he is the best, but for gods sake he is up there and at any given day he can challenge any player in the world head to head without being afraid to lose. That doesnt mean that he doesnt lose to anybody or that he is invincible, which he clearly isnt. But for the first time ever in Starcraft we have a player outside of Korea, that can dominate tournaments like no one has before.
Altough it of course introduces over the top fanatics and fanboys too, but so what ? So have all the other great champions done in the past. It isnt Serrals fault, and it should never, ever downgrade his accomplishments. When you try to deny or belittle his wins, dont you see that you just throw more gasoline to these fanatics ? Or is that just what you are hoping for ??
Anyways, GG WP to Serral yet again. Amazing victory 
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On July 01 2019 17:59 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 17:23 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 17:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
Serral did bleed against Stats and were taken to the brink by TY but he looked incredibly dominant. I missed the games vs Stats but against TY even if it was close score wise in the finals he looked clearly the better player. He is just too good and it doesn't even look like he breaks a sweat. Not a Serral fan but how can anyone stay not a Serral fan It's actually easy when you have some fanboys who make it impossible Some preivous cases with similar zealous fans - JD, FlasH I rather enjoy Serral's play and his interviews. He's a solid macro player with a dry sense of humor, doesn't cheese all the time or talk trash. He has great scouting, reactions, and composure. At his strongest he reminds me of Flash in the old days. And he doesn't let it go to his head. I can say very little against Serral the player or Serral the man. But Serral the avatar as created by the community, the mythical, legendary, godlike outline onto which rabid fanboys project their every dream of personal invincibility–well, not so much. You can't get in a word edgewise. Anything less than sycophantic fawning or unctuous worship draws the ire of a surprising number of people with apparently nothing better to do than patrol every last thread and comment to defend their lord and saviour from the slightest stain on his honor. Which of course then brings in his detractors, and both sides then argue back and forth ad infinitum, on any and every topic related in the slightest way and many that are unrelated at all, until a random passer-by who happened to wander into the Starcraft community could be forgiven for thinking that the name is actually Serralcraft. WCS? Serral is playing there, better talk about him even though he's in the other qualifier, or on the opposite side of the bracket, or already finished his series, and won't play until next day or week or month. GSL? Serral should play there against the Koreans and oh by the way here is how I think Serral will perform or win or lose or juggle with his feet while walking on his hands and playing the ukulele. Tournament results? Well Serral won again, or he wasn't there and he would have won, or he got knocked out due to bad bracket luck and he should have won. Or it's actually Fortnite but yknow Serral would do great there too. And win. Did I mention winning? Power rankings? Reeee why isn't Serral here instead of there which is obviously the only correct and perfectly objective and absolutely unquestionably right place. And on, and on, and on, and on. I remind myself that Serral is not responsible for the actions of his obnoxious fans, but even so I struggle not to think worse of him for it, and often wish he'll lose just to silence them. Which is a real shame, because none of it is his fault. It's not unique to Serral, of course. Maru was nearly as bad last year, and the same applied to JD and Flash in their heyday. Still, I would contend that any one player who dictates the flow of almost every conversation related to the game he plays comes at the detriment of the rest of the players and the community. Anyhow, that's my rant.
You actually got it backwards. Serral isn't really celebrated that much on Team Liquid(Reddit is a totally different thing); actually, the anti-Serral minority was making a disproportionate amount of similarly oriented post when I was still lurking. I have rarely seen a player so contested after his victories and so discredited after his rare losses(WESG 2018 and how Serral was "crushed").
If you want to see true veneration just look at how the people here worship Maru as the perfect korean specimen winning the ultimate competition multiple times; his losses were followed by a choir of despair(as it should be the case), I saw veery few attempts to show how overrated he was(as a player, he wasn't, his skill is superb; his accomplishments someway are, but that's my opinion), unlike it happened many times after Serral's victories.
The fact Serral is not a korean makes it more difficult to compare his level and his accomplishments to the other greats, as well as leading people to consider him the favourite in tournaments where koreans participate less often than it should if we would simply look at results; too bad that too little facts(win ratios and statistics) and too many opinions("Olimoleagues are more prestigious than WCS", "Serral would have never beaten a korean Terran, such bracket luck") are taken into the discussion when one happens to start(way too frequently).
To answer to some of your points: the request that Serral plays in Code S comes more from the anti-fans, his losses are justified way less than it happens with other players, the Power Ranking is in debt of at least one(if not two) glaring first place Serral had to be given(the obnoxious "Drunk Rank").
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Glad TYTY is up there again. Also really good plays from the Zester. Congratz to Serral. Looked a bit shaky after TY has thrown every strat possible his way, but collected himself and won anyway.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 01 2019 19:38 tilhorizon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 18:20 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 01 2019 12:37 Nakajin wrote:
Great job by Serral, barring a massive patch or meta shift, I'm starting to really beleive in another sweep of GSLvsTW and Blizzcon.
But appart from him I have to say it was an abysmal performance by the rest of the foreing crew: 28-93 in map and 9-40 in match vs koreans. (with almost half the losses beeing on Creator) It really feel like they aren't getting any closer. There's really 4 tiers of foreigners. Serral Neeb, Scarlett, Special, Reynor uthermal, dns, elazer, etc rest of NA and EU this is so wrong talk to the pros check check the results and u get other picture typical usa view putting reynor and scarlet to high also heromarine is nr 1 eu terran since ages uthermal getting crushed by heromarine and lambo on a regular bases tier 1 serral tier 2 neeb showtime heromarine elazer lambo reynor special tier 3 uthermal harstem scarlett ,,,etc rest of na is a joke there are like at least 20 eu players before the next na player
Considering Scarlett manages to qualify quite regularly to the Code S and even advance to Ro16 on her good days I say she's T2. She had good WESG run and not bad IEM results(where was showtime, elazer or reynor at IEM? )
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Here comes the people pvsnp talking about
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On July 01 2019 20:00 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 19:38 tilhorizon wrote:
this is so wrong talk to the pros check check the results and u get other picture
typical usa view putting reynor and scarlet to high
also heromarine is nr 1 eu terran since ages
uthermal getting crushed by heromarine and lambo on a regular bases
tier 1 serral
tier 2 neeb showtime heromarine elazer lambo reynor special
tier 3 uthermal harstem scarlett ,,,etc
rest of na is a joke there are like at least 20 eu players before the next na player
You say its typical usa view to put Reynor too high (tier 2) and then you go on to put him equally high (tier 2). lol so funny Hope to see Serral keep up these results, would be fun if TY starts making some progress in GSL as well!
no
he thinks reynor is on a different tier than other top europeans like heromarine elazer lambo
he is putting other europeans on tier 3 and reynor on 2, there is the important difference
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 01 2019 20:10 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 17:59 pvsnp wrote:On July 01 2019 17:23 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 17:01 Shuffleblade wrote:
Serral did bleed against Stats and were taken to the brink by TY but he looked incredibly dominant. I missed the games vs Stats but against TY even if it was close score wise in the finals he looked clearly the better player. He is just too good and it doesn't even look like he breaks a sweat. Not a Serral fan but how can anyone stay not a Serral fan It's actually easy when you have some fanboys who make it impossible Some preivous cases with similar zealous fans - JD, FlasH I rather enjoy Serral's play and his interviews. He's a solid macro player with a dry sense of humor, doesn't cheese all the time or talk trash. He has great scouting, reactions, and composure. At his strongest he reminds me of Flash in the old days. And he doesn't let it go to his head. I can say very little against Serral the player or Serral the man. But Serral the avatar as created by the community, the mythical, legendary, godlike outline onto which rabid fanboys project their every dream of personal invincibility–well, not so much. You can't get in a word edgewise. Anything less than sycophantic fawning or unctuous worship draws the ire of a surprising number of people with apparently nothing better to do than patrol every last thread and comment to defend their lord and saviour from the slightest stain on his honor. Which of course then brings in his detractors, and both sides then argue back and forth ad infinitum, on any and every topic related in the slightest way and many that are unrelated at all, until a random passer-by who happened to wander into the Starcraft community could be forgiven for thinking that the name is actually Serralcraft. WCS? Serral is playing there, better talk about him even though he's in the other qualifier, or on the opposite side of the bracket, or already finished his series, and won't play until next day or week or month. GSL? Serral should play there against the Koreans and oh by the way here is how I think Serral will perform or win or lose or juggle with his feet while walking on his hands and playing the ukulele. Tournament results? Well Serral won again, or he wasn't there and he would have won, or he got knocked out due to bad bracket luck and he should have won. Or it's actually Fortnite but yknow Serral would do great there too. And win. Did I mention winning? Power rankings? Reeee why isn't Serral here instead of there which is obviously the only correct and perfectly objective and absolutely unquestionably right place. And on, and on, and on, and on. I remind myself that Serral is not responsible for the actions of his obnoxious fans, but even so I struggle not to think worse of him for it, and often wish he'll lose just to silence them. Which is a real shame, because none of it is his fault. It's not unique to Serral, of course. Maru was nearly as bad last year, and the same applied to JD and Flash in their heyday. Still, I would contend that any one player who dictates the flow of almost every conversation related to the game he plays comes at the detriment of the rest of the players and the community. Anyhow, that's my rant. + Show Spoiler +Good writing.
But cant you see why this is happening ? Years after years after years we have been waiting for a foreinger player, that does regularly go head to head with Koreans and even win sometimes. All these years Korean "elitists" have shunned any foreingers or even belittled their plays all the time. I cant remember all the names here of course, but Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett.......and the other few that have shown talent and ambition to match the Koreans. All the time you have had to read "they are fluke" or "they never win a tournament, when xxxxx Korean player is participating" etc. Then there comes Serral from nowhere and suddenly stomps all Koreans to the ground. I can propably speak for many of the "zealots" here to say that it felt Gooooooooooood.
Still, even in 2018, there were some active writers here that liked to point out the terms "Fluke"...."Joke compared to Maru"..... "Only wins in foreinger tournaments". This tournament finally kinda put an end to the speculations, where the last of the Titans called "TY" would wipe the floor with Serral + Show Spoiler +if they ever met or played a decent macro game. And yeah, after having a bit rocky start in 2019 (meaning he didnt win all tournaments), he still managed to swipe TY twice with no sweat at all. Of course now the excuse propably is that "TY wasnt at his best" or "Serral just luckied out" or some other bullshit. Cant you guys really even once say, that he was the best player in this tournament ? Or that he is one of the best if not the best player in the world atm ? You dont have to admit he is the best, but for gods sake he is up there and at any given day he can challenge any player in the world head to head without being afraid to lose. That doesnt mean that he doesnt lose to anybody or that he is invincible, which he clearly isnt. But for the first time ever in Starcraft we have a player outside of Korea, that can dominate tournaments like no one has before. Altough it of course introduces over the top fanatics and fanboys too, but so what ? So have all the other great champions done in the past. It isnt Serrals fault, and it should never, ever downgrade his accomplishments. When you try to deny or belittle his wins, dont you see that you just throw more gasoline to these fanatics ? Or is that just what you are hoping for ?? Anyways, GG WP to Serral yet again. Amazing victory
Serral wins mostly in foreigner tournaments, what's so wrong in stating that? And up until GSL vs TW it was true, he got beaten by Koreans up until that match but he was being hyped way before that(and he lost in the NW before that either).
Also no one in their right mind would consider TY giant ATM. He has worse results than Maru and Maru is very questionable at best. Let's hope TY will follow Innovation's path and will be only better onwards but currently it reminds me HSC18. And usually not that many people were denying the Serral form at the tournament while they were denying "the best player of the world" which cannot be decided from his rare games against Koreans when he doesn't play the top while he is at the top. He should be defeating these Koreans if we consider him top4. NONE of the Koreans there were top4 Koreans except Stats. (edit> Classic, Stats, Innovation, Dark IMO and I am not sure about Stats)
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how surprising.
It's not normal to win every event you enter. like really. in the past 1 1/2 years, he won like 10/12 events he entered. Granted, only 4 of those had top korean participation, but he's 3/4 in those as well.
It boggles my mind there is ppl who don't think serral is #1 worldwide. Dark #1 cuz he just won a GSL? Do you know how many attemps Dark needed to win a GSL?
In the past 18 months, Serral would probably need 1 or 2 attempts at that, let's be honest.
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Fantastic! Thanks
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On July 01 2019 20:32 KalWarkov wrote:
how surprising.
It's not normal to win every event you enter. like really. in the past 1 1/2 years, he won like 10/12 events he entered. Granted, only 4 of those had top korean participation, but he's 3/4 in those as well.
It boggles my mind there is ppl who don't think serral is #1 worldwide. Dark #1 cuz he just won a GSL? Do you know how many attemps Dark needed to win a GSL?
In the past 18 months, Serral would probably need 1 or 2 attempts at that, let's be honest.
Serral did not spawn out of nowhere. He is playing since 2012
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On July 01 2019 20:14 tilhorizon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 20:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 01 2019 19:38 tilhorizon wrote:
this is so wrong talk to the pros check check the results and u get other picture
typical usa view putting reynor and scarlet to high
also heromarine is nr 1 eu terran since ages
uthermal getting crushed by heromarine and lambo on a regular bases
tier 1 serral
tier 2 neeb showtime heromarine elazer lambo reynor special
tier 3 uthermal harstem scarlett ,,,etc
rest of na is a joke there are like at least 20 eu players before the next na player
You say its typical usa view to put Reynor too high (tier 2) and then you go on to put him equally high (tier 2). lol so funny Hope to see Serral keep up these results, would be fun if TY starts making some progress in GSL as well! no he thinks reynor is on a different tier than other top europeans like heromarine elazer lambo he is putting other europeans on tier 3 and reynor on 2, there is the important difference
uthermal has a way higher chance of beating serral than heromarine. I would also say uthermal is more likely to beat top end koreans. Heromarine is more consistant against other foreigners.
They are pretty close, i'd put uthermal slightly above Heromarine still. Not only cuz he has a higher potential, he's also the only one who is close-ish to serral's Ladder MMR with a peak of almost 7.2k - Serral: almost 7.6k btw LUL.
Special is slightly above both of them.
Reynor and Neeb are in the same tier. Reynor challanges Serral on a constant basis, even beat him to win a WCS once. clearly #2 in europe, no quesiton about it at this point. Neeb sadly has way less competition to prove himself in Challangers.
Watch my foreigner ranking from last week if ur interested in my view
https://tl.net/blogs/549241-subjective-foreigner-ranking-june-2019
with last tournament, i would slightly tweak A Tier:
4-Special / 5-uthermal / 6-Scarlett / 7-Lambo / 8-Elazer / 9-Heromarine / 10-ShoWTimE / 11-Time
Showtime has the potential to even get into the A+ Tier, and he was there 18 months ago, but sadly, he doesn't perform in tournaments. Seems to be a mental blockade
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On July 01 2019 20:41 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 20:14 tilhorizon wrote:On July 01 2019 20:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 01 2019 19:38 tilhorizon wrote:
this is so wrong talk to the pros check check the results and u get other picture
typical usa view putting reynor and scarlet to high
also heromarine is nr 1 eu terran since ages
uthermal getting crushed by heromarine and lambo on a regular bases
tier 1 serral
tier 2 neeb showtime heromarine elazer lambo reynor special
tier 3 uthermal harstem scarlett ,,,etc
rest of na is a joke there are like at least 20 eu players before the next na player
You say its typical usa view to put Reynor too high (tier 2) and then you go on to put him equally high (tier 2). lol so funny Hope to see Serral keep up these results, would be fun if TY starts making some progress in GSL as well! no he thinks reynor is on a different tier than other top europeans like heromarine elazer lambo he is putting other europeans on tier 3 and reynor on 2, there is the important difference uthermal has a way higher chance of beating serral than heromarine.
Top kek. Heromarine 2-0'd Serral a few months ago, and he 3-0'd Reynor yesterday
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Well at least until next Blizzcon, Serral IS the best sc2 player on the world. That's what this title means. There shouldn't be argue about that. And comparing Stephano and Scarlett to him is also little bit too much, as they never get close to what Serral achieved as a foreigner in sc2 or Broodwar world. He won Blizzcon for god sake. Also he doesn't seem to stop there, as he dominates this year too. That's why he gets so much hype, and I'm not suprised. He deserves it.
Even TY said before the finals: "Serral is god". So not only psychofans are stating this :-)
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 01 2019 21:09 hiroshOne wrote:
Well at least until next Blizzcon, Serral IS the best sc2 player on the world. That's what this title means. There shouldn't be argue about that. And comparing Stephano and Scarlett to him is also little bit too much, as they never get close to what Serral achieved as a foreigner in sc2 or Broodwar world. He won Blizzcon for god sake. Also he doesn't seem to stop there, as he dominates this year too. That's why he gets so much hype, and I'm not suprised. He deserves it.
Even TY said before the finals: "Serral is god". So not only psychofans are stating this :-)
Why not? The top4 players are Classic, Serral, Dark, and Innovation. We can discuss the Inno part and replacing him with Stats(maybe? not sure). Except Seral none of these were present at HSC so I don't know how you can say he's the best when he did beat players he's supposed to beat if we consider him at least being in the top4.
Or you can elevate all the players being at the HSC to godlike status and even then Classic still has the best argument for being the best player of the world at this moment
Edit>
I, personally, would put Serral at the 2nd place right after Classic as Inno isn't exactly the greatest and Serral appears to have Dark's number(and he isn't the greatest either). Dark/Inno 3rd/4th (the same with Innovation -> Stats)
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On July 01 2019 21:09 hiroshOne wrote:
Well at least until next Blizzcon, Serral IS the best sc2 player on the world. That's what this title means. There shouldn't be argue about that. And comparing Stephano and Scarlett to him is also little bit too much, as they never get close to what Serral achieved as a foreigner in sc2 or Broodwar world. He won Blizzcon for god sake. Also he doesn't seem to stop there, as he dominates this year too. That's why he gets so much hype, and I'm not suprised. He deserves it.
Even TY said before the finals: "Serral is god". So not only psychofans are stating this :-)
As much as I loved Serrals play here and I'm very impressed by his play this doesn't make him the best in the world. Never ever has anyone claimed a player was the greatest because of a HSC win, its just too small.
The only top players he defeated were soO (got BO8 last season GSL, not even in the last powerrank and not even close to top 4) and TY twice (whom got knocked out in the RO32 in the last GSL season by sOs and Ragnarok and isn't even placed in the powerrank either, also far from top4)
So Serral defeated two good koreans (and lots of foreigners) whom aren't even top 10 players and therefore he is obviously world champion?
lol I don't want to belittle Serrals accomplishment because his result and gameplay is awesome but this result says nothing about best in the world. He lost to Stats and haven't played Classic, Maru, Innovation, Trap or Dark.
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On July 01 2019 22:09 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 21:09 hiroshOne wrote:
Well at least until next Blizzcon, Serral IS the best sc2 player on the world. That's what this title means. There shouldn't be argue about that. And comparing Stephano and Scarlett to him is also little bit too much, as they never get close to what Serral achieved as a foreigner in sc2 or Broodwar world. He won Blizzcon for god sake. Also he doesn't seem to stop there, as he dominates this year too. That's why he gets so much hype, and I'm not suprised. He deserves it.
Even TY said before the finals: "Serral is god". So not only psychofans are stating this :-) As much as I loved Serrals play here and I'm very impressed by his play this doesn't make him the best in the world. Never ever has anyone claimed a player was the greatest because of a HSC win, its just too small. The only top players he defeated were soO (got BO8 last season GSL, not even in the last powerrank and not even close to top 4) and TY twice (whom got knocked out in the RO32 in the last GSL season by sOs and Ragnarok and isn't even placed in the powerrank either, also far from top4) So Serral defeated two good koreans (and lots of foreigners) whom aren't even top 10 players and therefore he is obviously world champion? lol I don't want to belittle Serrals accomplishment because his result and gameplay is awesome but this result says nothing about best in the world. He lost to Stats and haven't played Classic, Maru, Innovation, Trap or Dark.
Shuffle, people have different metrics for judging who they think is the best in the world. There is should be no imperative for you to argue with an open opinon :-) A simple: I disagree will suffice in closing the conversation, or rather not comment on it. And if you want a true conversation you need to first state what your qualifications for "the best" are.
Now if they are like mine: fluid and volatile, you won't be able to say X player is the best. Thus it may annoy you when people show their undying love for someone - but you need to let that annoyance go.
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On July 01 2019 22:15 Noa Greenini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 22:09 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 01 2019 21:09 hiroshOne wrote:
Well at least until next Blizzcon, Serral IS the best sc2 player on the world. That's what this title means. There shouldn't be argue about that. And comparing Stephano and Scarlett to him is also little bit too much, as they never get close to what Serral achieved as a foreigner in sc2 or Broodwar world. He won Blizzcon for god sake. Also he doesn't seem to stop there, as he dominates this year too. That's why he gets so much hype, and I'm not suprised. He deserves it.
Even TY said before the finals: "Serral is god". So not only psychofans are stating this :-) As much as I loved Serrals play here and I'm very impressed by his play this doesn't make him the best in the world. Never ever has anyone claimed a player was the greatest because of a HSC win, its just too small. The only top players he defeated were soO (got BO8 last season GSL, not even in the last powerrank and not even close to top 4) and TY twice (whom got knocked out in the RO32 in the last GSL season by sOs and Ragnarok and isn't even placed in the powerrank either, also far from top4) So Serral defeated two good koreans (and lots of foreigners) whom aren't even top 10 players and therefore he is obviously world champion? lol I don't want to belittle Serrals accomplishment because his result and gameplay is awesome but this result says nothing about best in the world. He lost to Stats and haven't played Classic, Maru, Innovation, Trap or Dark. Shuffle, people have different metrics for judging who they think is the best in the world. There is should be no imperative for you to argue with an open opinon :-) A simple: I disagree will suffice in closing the conversation, or rather not comment on it. And if you want a true conversation you need to first state what your qualifications for "the best" are. Now if they are like mine: fluid and volatile, you won't be able to say X player is the best. Thus it may annoy you when people show their undying love for someone - but you need to let that annoyance go.
Don't be so petty, you make it sound like someone said: "I love Serral, I think he is the best ever" and I went on to rage on him how he is wrong....
That is not what happened, he posted:
On July 01 2019 21:09 hiroshOne wrote:
Well at least until next Blizzcon, Serral IS the best sc2 player on the world. That's what this title means. There shouldn't be argue about that.
So he himself is stating his opinion as a fact and even challenges for a discussion by staying that no one should be able to have a different opinion than him.
I didn't argue with an open opinion, I argued with a written statement that was constructed as a fact. If he would have said he himself personally is of an opinion _I wouldn't have replied. Or maybe I would have, because you know this a forum and if someone posts their opinion that should indicate they want to discuss, right?
If you want to write your opinion or feelings down but dont want anyone to answer you my advice is to either write it on an actual physical paper and then discard it or write it in a word document on your computer and keep it there.
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New year, same beast. I know it's very unlikely, but winning Blizzcon again would be fantastic
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On July 01 2019 22:31 raff100 wrote:
New year, same beast. I know it's very unlikely, but winning Blizzcon again would be fantastic
I don't know if it's that unlikely. He looks like he has the best versus Zerg in the world, which already puts him favored vs Dark, and then it just matter of a tiny bit of bracket luck and 1 good match vs Classic/Stats/Maru/Trap. He's one of the Blizzcon favorites in my eyes, at least if he keeps playing like he did at HSC.
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On July 01 2019 22:31 raff100 wrote:
New year, same beast. I know it's very unlikely, but winning Blizzcon again would be fantastic
Honestly, I don't think it's that unlikely. He's the heavy favourite to win it by a pretty big margin given who's likely to qualify.
Assuming he peaks in form like he did last year, I don't see him losing a ZvZ to Dark or soO.
For ZvP Stats certainly has the skill to beat him but has been inconsistant this year. Neeb could as well but I don't see him getting deep enough to show it (like almost every event they both play in). Classic probably won't be able to attend. Trap and Dear have a shot but I wouldn't bet on them in a big series.
And the only korean terran that's gonna qualify is Maru and he never shows his best form outside of korea anyway.
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On July 01 2019 22:43 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 22:31 raff100 wrote:
New year, same beast. I know it's very unlikely, but winning Blizzcon again would be fantastic Honestly, I don't think it's that unlikely. He's the heavy favourite to win it by a pretty big margin given who's likely to qualify. Assuming he peaks in form like he did last year, I don't see him losing a ZvZ to Dark or soO. For ZvP Stats certainly has the skill to beat him but has been inconsistant this year. Neeb could as well but I don't see him getting deep enough to show it (like almost every event they both play in). Classic probably won't be able to attend. Trap and Dear have a shot but I wouldn't bet on them in a big series. And the only korean terran that's gonna qualify is Maru and he never shows his best form outside of korea anyway.
In ZvZ, foreigners(especially Reynor if he specifically prepares instead of believing he can play standard and win) are as menacing as koreans to Serral but apparently he is once more in complete control of the matchup.
ZvP is where Serral is struggling(ironic, considering it was the matchup that carried him the most last year) and there will be many korean Protoss, as well as Neeb, at Anaheim.
ZvT seems decently comfortable for Serral; Maru outside of Korea is a big question mark and Inno should have to reach very good results to qualify for BlizzCon.
However, before BlizzCon there will be one balance patch that could change how the matchups are played but I don't see Serral not being among the favourites for the title.
Also, believing Classic won't be able to attend and that Maru will be the only Terran to get to BlizzCon is kind of contradictory, Gumiho is already placed well enough and could easily qualify by slightly outperforming Dear. One season of Code S and one Super Tournament are more than enough for turning the table(Trap and Classic, if they let him go, should be safe already tho), it's all a little too premature.
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At the end it is a lot of probability... Even if Serral is favored with a winning probability of 70 per cent for each elimination match, he still would be likely to lose with a probability of around 1-0.7*0.7*0.7 which is well over 50per cent.
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Barely beating a GSL caster, Serral needs to step up if he wants to do well for the rest of the year
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Congrats Serral, business as usual I guess. Can't wait for asus rog and gsl vs the world.
I was surprised by how good TY and Zest looked, they really showed some great games.
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On July 01 2019 23:52 Musicus wrote:
Congrats Serral, business as usual I guess. Can't wait for asus rog and gsl vs the world.
I was surprised by how good TY and Zest looked, they really showed some great games.
Zest was the most entertaining player this HSC in his games IMO. But he also really stepped it up from group stage to bracket stage. A ton. Never expected him to make it to 3rd after his group stage performance.
I'd like them to slightly rework the schedule or have more flexibility though. Like, TY played a close BO5 against Zest. Then has to wait an hour to start the finals. Serral had like 4 hours to spend between winners final and grand final. The grand finals started over 10 hours after the first series of the day. In due part because of internet troubles that persisted throughout the weekend. Do we really expect players to still fire on all cylinders in the finals at that point?
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On July 01 2019 19:38 tilhorizon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 18:20 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 01 2019 12:37 Nakajin wrote:
Great job by Serral, barring a massive patch or meta shift, I'm starting to really beleive in another sweep of GSLvsTW and Blizzcon.
But appart from him I have to say it was an abysmal performance by the rest of the foreing crew: 28-93 in map and 9-40 in match vs koreans. (with almost half the losses beeing on Creator) It really feel like they aren't getting any closer. There's really 4 tiers of foreigners. Serral Neeb, Scarlett, Special, Reynor uthermal, dns, elazer, etc rest of NA and EU this is so wrong talk to the pros check check the results and u get other picture typical usa view putting reynor and scarlet to high also heromarine is nr 1 eu terran since ages uthermal getting crushed by heromarine and lambo on a regular bases tier 1 serral tier 2 neeb showtime heromarine elazer lambo reynor special tier 3 uthermal harstem scarlett ,,,etc rest of na is a joke there are like at least 20 eu players before the next na player
When is the last time showtime has put in a result to place him at tier 2?
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Serral is a god of this game
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Very happy to see Zest play as well as he did, a lot of great games by him!
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I would have liked to see all 7 games played instead of having the 1 map advantage for the winner's bracket. I feel like having to play fewer series to reach the finals should be advantage enough.
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There's TL power ranks. An in-transparent method done by a (at least to me) unknown group of people that comes up some result, usually matching the last GSL results. Basically, it feels like results in GSL count 10 times as much as any other results for TL power ranks. That is only the regular GSL, GSL vs TW doesn't really count. Trap is #4 on TL powerranks? Really? All he has done is win some PvPs and one meaningful PvT against Inno. This and a lucky bracket got him to the GSL finals. Apparently, that's enough for TL to rank him high.
And there's Aligulac, which is extremely predictive, based on actual statistics of hundreds of thousands of games, where people don't jump around in the rankings for winning or losing one game.
TL Power Rank vs Aligulac is like religion vs science. Why ask the crystal ball when we have a method which is proven by statistics and experience to be correct?
Right now, Serral is the best player in the world. He had a tiny "slump" earlier this year, during which Aligulac correctly placed him second behind Maru. Trap is #16 on Aligulac. This discrepancy shows quite nicely how TL power ranks are weighted.
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On July 02 2019 01:55 finalius wrote:
There's TL power ranks. An in-transparent method done by a (at least to me) unknown group of people that comes up some result, usually matching the last GSL results. Basically, it feels like results in GSL count 10 times as much as any other results for TL power ranks. That is only the regular GSL, GSL vs TW doesn't really count. Trap is #4 on TL powerranks? Really? All he has done is win some PvPs and one meaningful PvT against Inno. This and a lucky bracket got him to the GSL finals. Apparently, that's enough for TL to rank him high.
And there's Aligulac, which is extremely predictive, based on actual statistics of hundreds of thousands of games, where people don't jump around in the rankings for winning or losing one game.
TL Power Rank vs Aligulac is like religion vs science. Why ask the crystal ball when we have a method which is proven by statistics and experience to be correct?
Right now, Serral is the best player in the world. He had a tiny "slump" earlier this year, during which Aligulac correctly placed him second behind Maru. Trap is #16 on Aligulac. This discrepancy shows quite nicely how TL power ranks are weighted.
Agreed. I also think that Solar is better than Classic right now. It's science.
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On July 02 2019 02:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 01:55 finalius wrote:
There's TL power ranks. An in-transparent method done by a (at least to me) unknown group of people that comes up some result, usually matching the last GSL results. Basically, it feels like results in GSL count 10 times as much as any other results for TL power ranks. That is only the regular GSL, GSL vs TW doesn't really count. Trap is #4 on TL powerranks? Really? All he has done is win some PvPs and one meaningful PvT against Inno. This and a lucky bracket got him to the GSL finals. Apparently, that's enough for TL to rank him high.
And there's Aligulac, which is extremely predictive, based on actual statistics of hundreds of thousands of games, where people don't jump around in the rankings for winning or losing one game.
TL Power Rank vs Aligulac is like religion vs science. Why ask the crystal ball when we have a method which is proven by statistics and experience to be correct?
Right now, Serral is the best player in the world. He had a tiny "slump" earlier this year, during which Aligulac correctly placed him second behind Maru. Trap is #16 on Aligulac. This discrepancy shows quite nicely how TL power ranks are weighted. Agreed. I also think that Solar is better than Classic right now. It's science.
And Neeb is better than Stats, obviously.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 01 2019 22:37 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 22:31 raff100 wrote:
New year, same beast. I know it's very unlikely, but winning Blizzcon again would be fantastic I don't know if it's that unlikely. He looks like he has the best versus Zerg in the world, which already puts him favored vs Dark, and then it just matter of a tiny bit of bracket luck and 1 good match vs Classic/Stats/Maru/Trap. He's one of the Blizzcon favorites in my eyes, at least if he keeps playing like he did at HSC.
Inno can get in form, Classic can get a permit, Stats won over him at HSC. Rogue can stop doing w/e he's doing and start some serious shit again.
It's not unlikely and unless Blizzard does their stupid shit again it may be interesting.
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Whatever all people think, all that whine from T and Z players against protoss since 2010 made the game worse. Now with legacy release Protoss got a massive nerf. That´s 4 years of absolute underperforming, making things like a retired prime player like Byun can win a Blizzcon, or serral, a Myi player who never won nothing on his entire life now is world champion.
Looking 4 years ago no protosses would have bought this expansion. It is(was) simply a waste of time and money.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 02 2019 03:39 EESCLuna wrote:
Whatever all people think, all that whine from T and Z players against protoss since 2010 made the game worse. Now with legacy release Protoss got a massive nerf. That´s 4 years of absolute underperforming, making things like a retired prime player like Byun can win a Blizzcon, or serral, a Myi player who never won nothing on his entire life now is world champion.
Looking 4 years ago no protosses would have bought this expansion. It is(was) simply a waste of time and money.
Get a job
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I also love that Serral is doing as well as he does as a foreigner. However, the Korean scene is very far from what Stephano was up against in his heyday, pro-teams, team houses, number of established and aspiring players... Doing what Serral still does is not easy, but there are some uncomfortable reasons why it happens now, many years from the SC2 release.
There should really be many more foreigners who can expect to win vs anyone at this point.
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On July 02 2019 03:39 EESCLuna wrote:
Whatever all people think, all that whine from T and Z players against protoss since 2010 made the game worse. Now with legacy release Protoss got a massive nerf. That´s 4 years of absolute underperforming, making things like a retired prime player like Byun can win a Blizzcon, or serral, a Myi player who never won nothing on his entire life now is world champion.
Looking 4 years ago no protosses would have bought this expansion. It is(was) simply a waste of time and money.
Yes! make a completely unrelated thread somehow about Protoss victimizing!
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On July 02 2019 03:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 03:39 EESCLuna wrote:
Whatever all people think, all that whine from T and Z players against protoss since 2010 made the game worse. Now with legacy release Protoss got a massive nerf. That´s 4 years of absolute underperforming, making things like a retired prime player like Byun can win a Blizzcon, or serral, a Myi player who never won nothing on his entire life now is world champion.
Looking 4 years ago no protosses would have bought this expansion. It is(was) simply a waste of time and money. Yes! make a completely unrelated thread somehow about Protoss victimizing!
Hopefully Serral take the note and offrace with Protoss in StarCraft2.fi 9V cup just to show how it goes and make some people happy. Last year it was Terran, and there are not much challenge if he plays Zerg.
Then generally, I don't think Serral would be that far from being somewhat competitive regardless of the race at least in minor/European tournaments, if there would exist any incentives to do so.
Serral being so good as Zerg shouldn't ever be used as an argument of imba for Protoss.
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On July 02 2019 04:05 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 03:52 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2019 03:39 EESCLuna wrote:
Whatever all people think, all that whine from T and Z players against protoss since 2010 made the game worse. Now with legacy release Protoss got a massive nerf. That´s 4 years of absolute underperforming, making things like a retired prime player like Byun can win a Blizzcon, or serral, a Myi player who never won nothing on his entire life now is world champion.
Looking 4 years ago no protosses would have bought this expansion. It is(was) simply a waste of time and money. Yes! make a completely unrelated thread somehow about Protoss victimizing! Hopefully Serral take the note and offrace with Protoss in StarCraft2.fi 9V cup just to show how it goes and make some people happy. Last year it was Terran, and there are not much challenge if he plays Zerg. Then generally, I don't think Serral would be that far from being somewhat competitive regardless of the race at least in minor/European tournaments, if there would exist any incentives to do so. Serral being so good as Zerg shouldn't ever be used as an argument of imba for Protoss.
Do you think serral would have had the same success if he played protoss? I don't.
Protoss win the fewest premier tournaments in LOTV. Protoss rarely win those lucrative weekenders
Look at the only Protoss player who is near the level of earnings as Maru, innovation, ty, dark, serral, soo, rogue (aka above half a mil) It's sOs, whose peak was during HOTS when Protoss was not a weak race.
I honestly don't think serral will be as dominant at blizzcon as he was last year though. Zerg creep got nerfed. That is a huge hit to macro Zerg like serral and rogue. Stats just destroyed serral ,and TY, the weakest horseman, took him to the brink. Innovation has his number this year too. Serral also lost to soo reynor and neeb before and said that he thinks neeb is the favorite against him in a bo7
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On July 02 2019 04:28 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 04:05 UnLarva wrote:On July 02 2019 03:52 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2019 03:39 EESCLuna wrote:
Whatever all people think, all that whine from T and Z players against protoss since 2010 made the game worse. Now with legacy release Protoss got a massive nerf. That´s 4 years of absolute underperforming, making things like a retired prime player like Byun can win a Blizzcon, or serral, a Myi player who never won nothing on his entire life now is world champion.
Looking 4 years ago no protosses would have bought this expansion. It is(was) simply a waste of time and money. Yes! make a completely unrelated thread somehow about Protoss victimizing! Hopefully Serral take the note and offrace with Protoss in StarCraft2.fi 9V cup just to show how it goes and make some people happy. Last year it was Terran, and there are not much challenge if he plays Zerg. Then generally, I don't think Serral would be that far from being somewhat competitive regardless of the race at least in minor/European tournaments, if there would exist any incentives to do so. Serral being so good as Zerg shouldn't ever be used as an argument of imba for Protoss.
Do you think serral would have had the same success if he played protoss? I don't. Protoss win the fewest premier tournaments in LOTV. Protoss rarely win those lucrative weekenders Look at the only Protoss player who is near the level of earnings as Maru, innovation, ty, dark, serral, soo, rogue (aka above half a mil) It's sOs, whose peak was during HOTS when Protoss was not a weak race. I honestly don't think serral will be as dominant at blizzcon as he was last year though. Zerg creep got nerfed. That is a huge hit to macro Zerg like serral and rogue. Stats just destroyed serral ,and TY, the weakest horseman, took him to the brink. Innovation has his number this year too. Serral also lost to soo reynor and neeb before and said that he thinks neeb is the favorite against him in a bo7
No. I don't think that and didn't claim it either.
However, if there would be some reason for Serral to start training systematically and play hard with either Protoss or Terran, I think he could become truly competitive with these races too.
His basic technical level, knowledge and insight to the game is that high level that I take it entirely plausible he would do rather well (again: with adequate training and adaptation to a race) with Protoss and Terran too. "Know your enemies" certainly applies to Serral in the context of SC2.
But winning Blizzcon with Protoss, Nooooo!
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On July 02 2019 04:39 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 04:28 BerserkSword wrote:On July 02 2019 04:05 UnLarva wrote:On July 02 2019 03:52 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2019 03:39 EESCLuna wrote:
Whatever all people think, all that whine from T and Z players against protoss since 2010 made the game worse. Now with legacy release Protoss got a massive nerf. That´s 4 years of absolute underperforming, making things like a retired prime player like Byun can win a Blizzcon, or serral, a Myi player who never won nothing on his entire life now is world champion.
Looking 4 years ago no protosses would have bought this expansion. It is(was) simply a waste of time and money. Yes! make a completely unrelated thread somehow about Protoss victimizing! Hopefully Serral take the note and offrace with Protoss in StarCraft2.fi 9V cup just to show how it goes and make some people happy. Last year it was Terran, and there are not much challenge if he plays Zerg. Then generally, I don't think Serral would be that far from being somewhat competitive regardless of the race at least in minor/European tournaments, if there would exist any incentives to do so. Serral being so good as Zerg shouldn't ever be used as an argument of imba for Protoss.
Do you think serral would have had the same success if he played protoss? I don't. Protoss win the fewest premier tournaments in LOTV. Protoss rarely win those lucrative weekenders Look at the only Protoss player who is near the level of earnings as Maru, innovation, ty, dark, serral, soo, rogue (aka above half a mil) It's sOs, whose peak was during HOTS when Protoss was not a weak race. I honestly don't think serral will be as dominant at blizzcon as he was last year though. Zerg creep got nerfed. That is a huge hit to macro Zerg like serral and rogue. Stats just destroyed serral ,and TY, the weakest horseman, took him to the brink. Innovation has his number this year too. Serral also lost to soo reynor and neeb before and said that he thinks neeb is the favorite against him in a bo7 No. I don't think that and didn't claim it either. However, if there would be some reason for Serral to start training systematically and play hard with either Protoss or Terran, I think he could become truly competitive with these races too. His basic technical level, knowledge and insight to the game is that high level that I take it entirely plausible he would do rather well (again: with adequate training and adaptation to a race) with Protoss and Terran too. "Know your enemies" certainly applies to Serral in the context of SC2. But winning Blizzcon with Protoss, Nooooo!
I mean if serral mailed Protoss do you think he'd be as successful
Any of the top pros can be competitive with other races if they practice enough lol
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On July 02 2019 05:10 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 04:39 UnLarva wrote:On July 02 2019 04:28 BerserkSword wrote:On July 02 2019 04:05 UnLarva wrote:On July 02 2019 03:52 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2019 03:39 EESCLuna wrote:
Whatever all people think, all that whine from T and Z players against protoss since 2010 made the game worse. Now with legacy release Protoss got a massive nerf. That´s 4 years of absolute underperforming, making things like a retired prime player like Byun can win a Blizzcon, or serral, a Myi player who never won nothing on his entire life now is world champion.
Looking 4 years ago no protosses would have bought this expansion. It is(was) simply a waste of time and money. Yes! make a completely unrelated thread somehow about Protoss victimizing! Hopefully Serral take the note and offrace with Protoss in StarCraft2.fi 9V cup just to show how it goes and make some people happy. Last year it was Terran, and there are not much challenge if he plays Zerg. Then generally, I don't think Serral would be that far from being somewhat competitive regardless of the race at least in minor/European tournaments, if there would exist any incentives to do so. Serral being so good as Zerg shouldn't ever be used as an argument of imba for Protoss.
Do you think serral would have had the same success if he played protoss? I don't. Protoss win the fewest premier tournaments in LOTV. Protoss rarely win those lucrative weekenders Look at the only Protoss player who is near the level of earnings as Maru, innovation, ty, dark, serral, soo, rogue (aka above half a mil) It's sOs, whose peak was during HOTS when Protoss was not a weak race. I honestly don't think serral will be as dominant at blizzcon as he was last year though. Zerg creep got nerfed. That is a huge hit to macro Zerg like serral and rogue. Stats just destroyed serral ,and TY, the weakest horseman, took him to the brink. Innovation has his number this year too. Serral also lost to soo reynor and neeb before and said that he thinks neeb is the favorite against him in a bo7 No. I don't think that and didn't claim it either. However, if there would be some reason for Serral to start training systematically and play hard with either Protoss or Terran, I think he could become truly competitive with these races too. His basic technical level, knowledge and insight to the game is that high level that I take it entirely plausible he would do rather well (again: with adequate training and adaptation to a race) with Protoss and Terran too. "Know your enemies" certainly applies to Serral in the context of SC2. But winning Blizzcon with Protoss, Nooooo! I mean if serral mailed Protoss do you think he'd be as successful Any of the top pros can be competitive with other races if they practice enough lol
A level of dominance he has demonstrated over 18 months while playing Protoss? No I don't think that. However, if he would've played last 18 months with Protoss, that wouldn't be considered off-race for him anymore.
What we are exactly arguing here? Best players tend to be best in training too, and if being god-tier with one race, makes at minimum very good with other races too by default. Training and competitive practice in that game required ofc for everyone to become good in any Esports.
Funny thing, when people talk about top players, Koreans particularly, they list usually a player's wins. When same people talk about Serral they list his losses (apparently easier to do than list his wins). That good he is.
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Ok, let's take a look at the numbers.....
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dLRcqrO.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/7CP0odU.png)
Note: Data from HSC IX to XVIII are from www.fuzic.nl. Unfortunately it seems that fuzic did not record this HSC correctly. Therefore I had to use the data for the HSC XIX from sullygnome.com. I had to collect the data from each individual channel for the HSC XIX. I hope I didn't make a mistake...
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Bit unfortunate if those numbers are accurate, but like you said fuzic was having issues since the stream went down a few times and probably really hurts the final numbers. Hopefully 20 is more like 18
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Like Naruto said on his stream and as you can also see in the picture, Homestory Cup usually has less viewers in summer editions. The winter edition at HSC 20 is the one we have to compare with HSC 18. VxH looks like it was a huge drop though. Then again, I'm also sure the times of the last day did not help. The grand final and even the game before it were at a too late time to achieve higher viewer numbers.
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Canada8988 Posts
On July 02 2019 04:28 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 04:05 UnLarva wrote:On July 02 2019 03:52 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2019 03:39 EESCLuna wrote:
Whatever all people think, all that whine from T and Z players against protoss since 2010 made the game worse. Now with legacy release Protoss got a massive nerf. That´s 4 years of absolute underperforming, making things like a retired prime player like Byun can win a Blizzcon, or serral, a Myi player who never won nothing on his entire life now is world champion.
Looking 4 years ago no protosses would have bought this expansion. It is(was) simply a waste of time and money. Yes! make a completely unrelated thread somehow about Protoss victimizing! Hopefully Serral take the note and offrace with Protoss in StarCraft2.fi 9V cup just to show how it goes and make some people happy. Last year it was Terran, and there are not much challenge if he plays Zerg. Then generally, I don't think Serral would be that far from being somewhat competitive regardless of the race at least in minor/European tournaments, if there would exist any incentives to do so. Serral being so good as Zerg shouldn't ever be used as an argument of imba for Protoss. Do you think serral would have had the same success if he played protoss? I don't. Protoss win the fewest premier tournaments in LOTV. Protoss rarely win those lucrative weekenders Look at the only Protoss player who is near the level of earnings as Maru, innovation, ty, dark, serral, soo, rogue (aka above half a mil) It's sOs, whose peak was during HOTS when Protoss was not a weak race. I honestly don't think serral will be as dominant at blizzcon as he was last year though. Zerg creep got nerfed. That is a huge hit to macro Zerg like serral and rogue. Stats just destroyed serral ,and TY, the weakest horseman, took him to the brink. Innovation has his number this year too. Serral also lost to soo reynor and neeb before and said that he thinks neeb is the favorite against him in a bo7
Earning is a shitty way to rank success in SC2, Zest got 65K for his IEM katowice, sOs 100k while soO and Rogue got 150k for there's, a GSL can be worth 25K or 70K depending on the time, a KC/ST 10K or 20K ect... plus Inno-TY-Maru-Dark all got stupidly big paycheck from WESG.
Also Stats and MC have earn more than half a million, so there's at least 3 of them.
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On July 02 2019 05:48 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Bit unfortunate if those numbers are accurate, but like you said fuzic was having issues since the stream went down a few times and probably really hurts the final numbers. Hopefully 20 is more like 18
How is it unfortunate? It looks like it was the most popular Summer HSC since 2014
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On July 02 2019 05:56 Need wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 05:48 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Bit unfortunate if those numbers are accurate, but like you said fuzic was having issues since the stream went down a few times and probably really hurts the final numbers. Hopefully 20 is more like 18 How is it unfortunate? It looks like it was the most popular Summer HSC since 2014
that is true, i wasn't looking at the months of the events. wonder why the summer ones aren't as popular.
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$4000 for 1st prize is a bit underwhelming, especially for the Koreans who had to travel thousands of miles away from home. I bet a few of them were thinking, "Okay, let's grab some easy chump change from these chobo foreigners, then go home," before Serral came along. That might be why Zest always had the expression on his face that says, "Why do I have to deal with jetlag and work hard just to collect a couple coins?" lol I'm half-facetious, and I'm sure many were just having fun, and didn't mind the traveling and crappy prize pool.
Congratulations to Serral. In my personal top 5 ranking, which is not based not so much on achievements as individual games analysis, Serral is #1, and the rest are all Korean. That speaks to the immense gap I believe to be between Serral and the rest of the foreigners. Someone differentiated Serral from the others as Rank S vs Rank A+, but to me if people like Neeb, Special and Reynor are A+, then Serral is more like SS. Serral is the product of extreme mechanical mastery + strategic genius. His brother (protosser) is a mathematician, so I suspect Serral has a similar IQ required of mathematicians.
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On July 02 2019 06:01 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 05:56 Need wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Bit unfortunate if those numbers are accurate, but like you said fuzic was having issues since the stream went down a few times and probably really hurts the final numbers. Hopefully 20 is more like 18 How is it unfortunate? It looks like it was the most popular Summer HSC since 2014 that is true, i wasn't looking at the months of the events. wonder why the summer ones aren't as popular.
I guess because some people don't want to sit at home watching streams during summer (not that there's something wrong with that)
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On July 02 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 06:01 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On July 02 2019 05:56 Need wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Bit unfortunate if those numbers are accurate, but like you said fuzic was having issues since the stream went down a few times and probably really hurts the final numbers. Hopefully 20 is more like 18 How is it unfortunate? It looks like it was the most popular Summer HSC since 2014 that is true, i wasn't looking at the months of the events. wonder why the summer ones aren't as popular. I guess because some people don't want to sit at home watching streams during summer (not that there's something wrong with that)
What losers, doing things with people and shit when they could be watching Starcraft.
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people love watching serral and people love watching scarlett. those are always the peak viewer counts. i was really hoping scarlett would come to this hsc but you can't be everywhere all the time playing in every tournament.
On July 02 2019 07:25 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 07:10 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2019 06:01 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On July 02 2019 05:56 Need wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Bit unfortunate if those numbers are accurate, but like you said fuzic was having issues since the stream went down a few times and probably really hurts the final numbers. Hopefully 20 is more like 18 How is it unfortunate? It looks like it was the most popular Summer HSC since 2014 that is true, i wasn't looking at the months of the events. wonder why the summer ones aren't as popular. I guess because some people don't want to sit at home watching streams during summer (not that there's something wrong with that) What losers, doing things with people and shit when they could be watching Starcraft.
agreed 1000%
this sunday was asl with flash, wgl with happy and hsc with the whole cast and crew. i could get used to this.
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This kid is just phenomenal. This is arguably the best run anyone has had over a years time. I'd love to see him try GSL just once
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Man, I hate when the person from the winners bracket gets a map advantage.. it's dumb.
The advantage you get for staying in the winners bracket is a much shorter path to the finals.
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On July 02 2019 13:03 BronzeKnee wrote:
Man, I hate when the person from the winners bracket gets a map advantage.. it's dumb.
The advantage you get for staying in the winners bracket is a much shorter path to the finals.
If TY had won the grand final with a 4-3 score, it could be considered highly contentious due to the fact that their total score would be 6-5 in Serral's favor.
Also, I'm not sure it's justifiable that one should to be able to have a chance to still win the tournament after taking a lost match just because one defeated the 3rd place holder, without some kind of additional hurdle. Ironically, the winner of the winners bracket but loser of the grand final doesn't get such opportunity to earn a chance to get back at winning 1st place after having taken his only lost match.
Imagine this dialogue of the "winner" toward the "runner up":
"Hey, look at that. I won the tournament even though you technically kicked my ass overall in the playoff...just because I also happened to beat the 3rd place guy, who by definition is worse than you. LooooL"
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Serral will definitely win blizzcon this year. He is toOo good. Superior player and human being. Strongest will power, presence and intelligence. When you watch him, you can definitely see aura of wisdom. He has seen things to come. When korean boys watch him, they will definitely see aura of flaming death. Serral is our god and saviour. Serral gives us hope and light. Serral is sun and moon, our father and mother. He saves us from korean tyranny and breed our children. I will give all my wifes to serral. Serral will win all the money and smix as well.
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On July 02 2019 15:06 435 wrote:
Serral will definitely win blizzcon this year. He is toOo good. Superior player and human being. Strongest will power, presence and intelligence. When you watch him, you can definitely see aura of wisdom. He has seen things to come. When korean boys watch him, they will definitely see aura of flaming death. Serral is our god and saviour. Serral gives us hope and light. Serral is sun and moon, our father and mother. He saves us from korean tyranny and breed our children. I will give all my wifes to serral. Serral will win all the money and smix as well.
Aside from implying that Smix would be okay with the undignified position of being part of a harem, you may have won the internet.
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Having 2 chances to try win the tournament after already losing one match in playoffs is easily worth of one game.
TY got 2nd chance against Serral, and used it pretty well. If Serral would have lost the grand finals to TY, 1 game advantage would look rather bad compensation compared to chance to play again after already losing entire playoffs match. If anything winner advantage should be more than one map, not less to it be fair to a winner for him maintaining his position in winner bracket.
I don't get what troubles so many people here exactly.
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Bias note - new fan of Serral.
I dislike the +1 map in the finals. I think regardless of how many paths to the finals, once there, the players have earned their place and as such deserve an even match.
I don't buy the "losers should be punished" or the converse logic. Serral, like all the other players, had the safety net of the losers bracket if he lost match ups to a certain point. The safety net of the losers bracket is supposed to give good players a second shot and to reduce randomness.
Instead of +1 in a bo7, which is a huge advantage, winner of the winners bracket, should get 25% of the prize fund. Reward it with cash. Making pro gamers play handicapped matches is unfair and unsportsmen-like.
This time it worked to a player I admires advantage, and I am still against it.
The current reward for the winners bracket - less games, is already enough without adding a cash bonus.
Please consider changing the system.
Serral or TY or whoever else, do not deserve to have their result besmirched or their matches viewed with asterisks, the only advantage that a player should have is A) racial or B) Map or C) Matchup.
That said, Great event, had a blast. TY in the first match looked like a much worse player then he is. Very confusing play. Thanks to the hosts for hosting.
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On July 02 2019 17:08 AttackZerg wrote:
Bias note - new fan of Serral.
I dislike the +1 map in the finals. I think regardless of how many paths to the finals, once there, the players have earned their place and as such deserve an even match.
I don't buy the "losers should be punished" or the converse logic. Serral, like all the other players, had the safety net of the losers bracket if he lost match ups to a certain point. The safety net of the losers bracket is supposed to give good players a second shot and to reduce randomness.
Instead of +1 in a bo7, which is a huge advantage, winner of the winners bracket, should get 25% of the prize fund. Reward it with cash. Making pro gamers play handicapped matches is unfair and unsportsmen-like.
This time it worked to a player I admires advantage, and I am still against it.
The current reward for the winners bracket - less games, is already enough without adding a cash bonus.
Please consider changing the system.
Serral or TY or whoever else, do not deserve to have their result besmirched or their matches viewed with asterisks, the only advantage that a player should have is A) racial or B) Map or C) Matchup.
That said, Great event, had a blast. TY in the first match looked like a much worse player then he is. Very confusing play. Thanks to the hosts for hosting.
Okay, so you either didn't read my post, or didn't understand it. So let me break it down further for you. The +1 "advantage" isn't really to punish the guy from the loser's bracket, or handicap him. The +1 is just to ensure that the winner of the winners bracket doesn't get screwed over, since everybody in the tournament except him was given a second chance at winning 1st place. He himself doesn't get that luxury. If anything, +1 may be unfair because it's not enough compensation! In the past (WoL days), the guy who crawls back from the losers bracket would have to win 2 series in the grand final to win the tournament; because now even the winner of the winners bracket gets to have his 2nd chance. In this format, everyone gets their 2nd chance.
If things went your way, Serral wouldn't win the tournament despite having a 6-5 score against TY; and what would TY have to show for that discrepancy? Oh, he defeated the 3rd placer. How would that demonstrate that he outperformed Serral???
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I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please.
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On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please.
The first game of the grand final was basically the the winners bracket final. How limited are you to not grasp this? If you say that a match is a finite thing then TY should never get a second chance vs Serral as he already lost a series...
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No need for personal attacks. Serral actually won TY twice in the tournament where all players were on equal standings corresponding very well their relative prominences.
TY is bigger hero there than Serral for being capable to really crack Serral to make it very close. That said, +1 map is BS reward for the final if other guy have chance to repeat attempt.
Think it that way. You can lose BO5 match in playoffs (even intentionally) to ensure you need make only one map come back in the finals of BO7.
Serral should do that every time he see it fitting considering players sent already to loser bracket.
1 map is nothing for the chance to be able to get 2nd chance. Serral managed to get his worst enemies obliterated by outplaying them from the winner bracket. Luckily it was TY who was the primary tool.
In other scenarios its easy to see that Serral could voluntarily lose a winner bracket spot for making it to Finals.
Thats it where it sucks. Best players have incentive to lose a playoffs match in certain scenarios.
+3 Maps in B07 would make and do better. It should never be beneficial to lose the match in a winner bracket.
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It's okay. Winning semi-finals still is (much) better than losing. Nobody would intentionally drop a game to play the 3rd place guy. No way losing is better than winning as the poster above me claims. It's not +1 game vs second chance, but +1 game AND ticket to the finals for the winner vs only a chance to the finals for the loser.
Double elimination is better than single elimination in my opinion and +1 is also better than a second series.
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Yes. But +2 or even +3 maps in Bo7 would make the too viewer unfriendly since it could be over too fast. If you make it a Bo9, it could potentially take way too long if it goes the whole distance.
I think the way HSC did it this time is the best way possible.
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On July 02 2019 21:05 DSh1 wrote:
It's okay. Winning semi-finals still is (much) better than losing. Nobody would intentionally drop a game to play the 3rd place guy. No way losing is better than winning as the poster above me claims.
Double elimination is better than single elimination in my opinion and +1 is also better than a second series.
'Poster above' just said that "It should never be beneficial to lose in winner bracket" and that to ensure it would be better to value Winner pracket winner (guy who actually won all of his/hers matches) until The Final more than +1 map.
Thats what I said.
TY would've been worthy to win this one. Thats said too.
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On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please.
The concept of a tournament is to pit players together, under fair rules that apply equally to all participants, in order to determine who the best performers are, as accurately as possible. Suggesting to monetarily compensate the upper bracket winner, who was unfairly treated by a flawed tournament format, while of good intention is nothing more than offering apology money, or "Hey, we feel bad for robbing you of your fair chance for taking 1st prize, (and in this case you proven that you're better than the official crowned victor), but here, have some money." An advantage in having map decision is peanuts in compensation (imo).
"A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared."
Except this isn't a normal Bo7, nor should it be. There is absolutely no reason why player B should be crowned the victor over player A, when player A is so blatantly handicapped by having no 2nd chance which player B enjoyed. The problem is that you are perceiving the +1 as the organizers having decided a real game was won, when really it should just be considered as merely a placeholder value. I would agree that the +1 score can be confusing for those unfamiliar with the tournament format, as it suggests the winners-bracket player won more games than he actually did. In my opinion, the +1 should be left out, and the match win should simply be awarded to the winners-bracket player if he wins 3 games, or the lower bracket player if he wins 4 games, and also NOT call it a Bo7. (Perhaps add an asterisk.)
If fairness was strictly adhered to, we wouldn't have any losers bracket, provided that the players were properly seated, so that a top elite player doesn't get knocked out of the tournament in the Ro8 because he was unluckily placed against the eventually tournament winner. The reason why we have a losers bracket is that we also want to have the additional factor of accuracy of measuring relative skill, to prevent the suspicions of "player X won due to a fluke of circumstances," or "player Y should've placed much higher but got really unlucky."
Now I acknowledge the argument that the losers bracket player oftens has to slug his way back to the top, having to win many more matches. However, these matches are all against players that are by default lower in standing than the winners bracket finalist. Now the fact these players all have a chance at taking a series even off of the supposed best player in the tournament, doesn't make it a probable occurrence, and no tournament can prevent a weaker player from defeating a stronger player. So, the fact that the lower bracket winner has beaten so many of them should not have any bearing on his merit aside from the fact that he'd earned his right to challenge the upper bracket winner.
Stripping away the best-performing winners bracket player's critical 2nd chance without just compensation is absolutely the worst possible scenario. Consoling him with money is insulting, and offering arbitrary advantages may work if they're enough, but that's largely a subjective decision, just as the +1 placeholder was a subjectively arrived upon decision. Map decisions alone is nowhere near enough, but that is also just my subjective opinion, as no one has quantified the statistical advantage of being able to dictate what maps and their order are to be played.
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On July 02 2019 21:16 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The concept of a tournament is to pit players together, under fair rules that apply equally to all participants, in order to determine who the best performers are, as accurately as possible. Suggesting to monetarily compensate the upper bracket winner, who was unfairly treated by a flawed tournament format, while of good intention is nothing more than offering apology money, or "Hey, we feel bad for robbing you of your fair chance for taking 1st prize, (and in this case you proven that you're better than the official crowned victor), but here, have some money." An advantage in having map decision is peanuts in compensation (imo). " A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared." Except this isn't a normal Bo7, nor should it be. There is absolutely no reason why player B should be crowned the victor over player A, when player A is so blatantly handicapped by having no 2nd chance which player B enjoyed. The problem is that you are perceiving the +1 as the organizers having decided a real game was won, when really it should just be considered as merely a placeholder value. I would agree that the +1 score can be confusing for those unfamiliar with the tournament format, as it suggests the winners-bracket player won more games than he actually did. In my opinion, the +1 should be left out, and the match win should simply be awarded to the winners-bracket player if he wins 3 games, or the lower bracket player if he wins 4 games, and also NOT call it a Bo7. (Perhaps add an asterisk.) If fairness was strictly adhered to, we wouldn't have any losers bracket, provided that the players were properly seated, so that a top elite player doesn't get knocked out of the tournament in the Ro8 because he was unluckily placed against the eventually tournament winner. The reason why we have a losers bracket is that we also want to have the additional factor of accuracy of measuring relative skill, to prevent the suspicions of "player X won due to a fluke of circumstances," or "player Y should've placed much higher but got really unlucky." Now I acknowledge the argument that the losers bracket player oftens has to slug his way back to the top, having to win many more matches. However, these matches are all against players that are by default lower in standing than the winners bracket finalist. Now the fact these players all have a chance at taking a series even off of the supposed best player in the tournament, doesn't make it a probable occurrence, and no tournament can prevent a weaker player from defeating a stronger player. So, the fact that the lower bracket winner has beaten so many of them should not have any bearing on his merit aside from the fact that he'd earned his right to challenge the upper bracket winner. Stripping away the best-performing winners bracket player's critical 2nd chance without just compensation is absolutely the worst possible scenario. Consoling him with money is insulting, and offering arbitrary advantages may work if they're enough, but that's largely a subjective decision, just as the +1 placeholder was a subjectively arrived upon decision. Map decisions alone is nowhere near enough, but that is also just my subjective opinion, as no one has quantified the statistical advantage of being able to dictate what maps and their order are to be played.
Wisdom. As it is.
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On July 02 2019 12:39 meorcmespam wrote:
This kid is just phenomenal. This is arguably the best run anyone has had over a years time. I'd love to see him try GSL just once
I hope he doesn't. The top Koreans are too savvy on their own turf and in a format they know very well, including extremely specific preparation. I would like to not risk the disappointment.
Maru is the opposite, as he thrives in the prep-heavy GSL format but not so much in Weekend tournaments with more games and opponents in a shorter timeframe.
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On July 02 2019 22:49 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 12:39 meorcmespam wrote:
This kid is just phenomenal. This is arguably the best run anyone has had over a years time. I'd love to see him try GSL just once I hope he doesn't. The top Koreans are too savvy on their own turf and in a format they know very well, including extremely specific preparation. I would like to not risk the disappointment. Maru is the opposite, as he thrives in the prep-heavy GSL format but not so much in Weekend tournaments with more games and opponents in a shorter timeframe.
I hope instead he does multiple times, it's good to see Serral tested. The format will be new for him but I would be extremely surprised to see him perform poorly; ofc, he could not win, but that's a different story.
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Decide a lower bracket finalist in a series vs. 2 best lower bracket players and the Winner of winner bracket with +1 map for all matches, BO5. The Winner of Winner bracket could even lose that series as its just to determine Who is the second finalist.
The Final would be then fair, clean, plain BO7, if The winner is the loser. Otherwise it would be the defense of that +1 for the Winner. (If being 2nd, then +/- 0 for the the Winner of the Winner Bracket).
Tired as hell they would be, but...
From the start it would be clear that you can fight for your win, even if tired as fuck.
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Some alcometer measured factor to determine who is more "handicapped"... 
Serral! Kick their arses, be pleased!
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Even with the tricky start and close end nice to see Serral get the win. Also glad to see all kinds of productive discussions about him after it.
On July 02 2019 06:01 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 05:56 Need wrote:On July 02 2019 05:48 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Bit unfortunate if those numbers are accurate, but like you said fuzic was having issues since the stream went down a few times and probably really hurts the final numbers. Hopefully 20 is more like 18 How is it unfortunate? It looks like it was the most popular Summer HSC since 2014 that is true, i wasn't looking at the months of the events. wonder why the summer ones aren't as popular.
In addition to people having other things to do, the prize pools have been half of the winter ones the last few years, while the player line-ups have pretty much always been clearly better at the end of the year editions.
When it comes to the difference between this HSC and the last one there were the additional differences of Serral riding the recent Blizzcon hypetrain, not having Incontrol there, delays with internet issues, and maybe having the wacky Mexican theme. Also not sure if the additional streams did better last time with probably having better variety of games and casters?
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the extended series issue will never die. kinda had something happen in the premiere wc3 tournament this weekend where happy was 2-2 against focus? i think? but he eliminated focus. no format is ever going to be perfect. you play by the tournament rules. period. anyhow.. serral is so damn good at starcraft 2. i don't blame him for not playing in gsl. he doesn't have to. imo being a weekender is probably more convenient for him and he makes cash over cash doing so. if it ain't broke don't fix it
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I believe winners bracket deserves the advantage, because it's pretty unfair to come from winners bracket without getting any advantage, compared to all the other players who fell down to lower bracket and had that one loss available to them.
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On July 01 2019 13:13 KadaverBB wrote:
This Serral guy is pretty good at this game.
He's a pretty good guy and he doesn't afraid of anything.
Great result for Serral, Ence and Finland.
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Seeing allthe controverse about the +1 rule i have to say i find it completely fair. If anytthing, the winner bracket player should have more advantage, like a whole series, since the loser bracket player already lost one series and the winnerbracket player didnt. The +1 rule is a good compromise, although i like the idea of the winnerbracket Winner already getting a part of the prizepool and then going to an even final for the rest of the money.
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On July 03 2019 01:43 IArako wrote:
Seeing allthe controverse about the +1 rule i have to say i find it completely fair. If anytthing, the winner bracket player should have more advantage, like a whole series, since the loser bracket player already lost one series and the winnerbracket player didnt. The +1 rule is a good compromise, although i like the idea of the winnerbracket Winner already getting a part of the prizepool and then going to an even final for the rest of the money.
I agree that it is fair but it's a little bit anticlimatic when a series is tied 3-3 and then suddenly one player gets declared the victor.
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On July 02 2019 20:02 Majick wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The first game of the grand final was basically the the winners bracket final. How limited are you to not grasp this? If you say that a match is a finite thing then TY should never get a second chance vs Serral as he already lost a series...
It is almost as if they are seperate matches? It is almost like there is a 20 year history where that has been the case.
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On July 03 2019 04:10 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 20:02 Majick wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The first game of the grand final was basically the the winners bracket final. How limited are you to not grasp this? If you say that a match is a finite thing then TY should never get a second chance vs Serral as he already lost a series... It is almost as if they are seperate matches? It is almost like there is a 20 year history where that has been the case.
Not your tournament, none of your bees wax. Imaginated 2 decades of DE brackets in Starcraft or not.
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On July 02 2019 21:16 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The concept of a tournament is to pit players together, under fair rules that apply equally to all participants, in order to determine who the best performers are, as accurately as possible. Suggesting to monetarily compensate the upper bracket winner, who was unfairly treated by a flawed tournament format, while of good intention is nothing more than offering apology money, or "Hey, we feel bad for robbing you of your fair chance for taking 1st prize, (and in this case you proven that you're better than the official crowned victor), but here, have some money." An advantage in having map decision is peanuts in compensation (imo). " A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared." Except this isn't a normal Bo7, nor should it be. There is absolutely no reason why player B should be crowned the victor over player A, when player A is so blatantly handicapped by having no 2nd chance which player B enjoyed. The problem is that you are perceiving the +1 as the organizers having decided a real game was won, when really it should just be considered as merely a placeholder value. I would agree that the +1 score can be confusing for those unfamiliar with the tournament format, as it suggests the winners-bracket player won more games than he actually did. In my opinion, the +1 should be left out, and the match win should simply be awarded to the winners-bracket player if he wins 3 games, or the lower bracket player if he wins 4 games, and also NOT call it a Bo7. (Perhaps add an asterisk.) If fairness was strictly adhered to, we wouldn't have any losers bracket, provided that the players were properly seated, so that a top elite player doesn't get knocked out of the tournament in the Ro8 because he was unluckily placed against the eventually tournament winner. The reason why we have a losers bracket is that we also want to have the additional factor of accuracy of measuring relative skill, to prevent the suspicions of "player X won due to a fluke of circumstances," or "player Y should've placed much higher but got really unlucky." Now I acknowledge the argument that the losers bracket player oftens has to slug his way back to the top, having to win many more matches. However, these matches are all against players that are by default lower in standing than the winners bracket finalist. Now the fact these players all have a chance at taking a series even off of the supposed best player in the tournament, doesn't make it a probable occurrence, and no tournament can prevent a weaker player from defeating a stronger player. So, the fact that the lower bracket winner has beaten so many of them should not have any bearing on his merit aside from the fact that he'd earned his right to challenge the upper bracket winner. Stripping away the best-performing winners bracket player's critical 2nd chance without just compensation is absolutely the worst possible scenario. Consoling him with money is insulting, and offering arbitrary advantages may work if they're enough, but that's largely a subjective decision, just as the +1 placeholder was a subjectively arrived upon decision. Map decisions alone is nowhere near enough, but that is also just my subjective opinion, as no one has quantified the statistical advantage of being able to dictate what maps and their order are to be played.
You provided no new points. You are arguing for something that no other sport that is credible in the world does.
Your argument is "Well we must stack the deck in the finals to make it fair".
Thank you for pulling back from your "I'm so smart tone" but unfortunately you added more words with less content.
Why do your sc2 groupies feel the need to bandwagon. I pointed out the merits to my argument. The entire tournament world operates closer to my ideas then yours.
Only this sport has such a moronic "+1 in the finals advantage".
Nobody else does that because it literally ruins the finals.
The finals, that goal of a tournament is to produce a finals. That's it. The finals of the tournament were champions are made.
The finals of this tournament ended with 3/3. That is stupid.
I made it clear that I am not susceptible to arguments that "This is the best way".
To the polish guy who said "can't get this through your head"
Listen Mr. Second language. Holding a separate opinion doesn't make someone stupid.
I never asked for your or anyone else opinion. I stated mine. Fully aware of yours.
Yours is the way the tournament was run and why the finals were a sad affair with 6 games played.
If you want to imply that someone is stupid .... it is probably the people in a niche sport adding fake games in order to falsely quantify the difference between winners and losers brackets.
If you want to go that route .... You would have to be a real barnacle of a person to support back rubs for the winners bracket at the cost of a fair finals.
Also your argument starts off stupid, There is a losers bracket for every round but the finals. Penalizing someone for having a worse earlier tournament or handicapping the finals is unjustifiable.
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On July 03 2019 04:28 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 04:10 AttackZerg wrote:On July 02 2019 20:02 Majick wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The first game of the grand final was basically the the winners bracket final. How limited are you to not grasp this? If you say that a match is a finite thing then TY should never get a second chance vs Serral as he already lost a series... It is almost as if they are seperate matches? It is almost like there is a 20 year history where that has been the case. Not your tournament, none of your bees wax. Imaginated 2 decades of DE brackets in Starcraft or not.
Woah buddy. Never said it was. Read my posts in full and respond in correct English.
Also, since I contributed to the prize pool ... I can SURELY posts about the tournament in the tournament thread.
Also, you added nothing..... 50k posts of one liner garbage.
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On July 03 2019 04:40 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 04:28 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 04:10 AttackZerg wrote:On July 02 2019 20:02 Majick wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The first game of the grand final was basically the the winners bracket final. How limited are you to not grasp this? If you say that a match is a finite thing then TY should never get a second chance vs Serral as he already lost a series... It is almost as if they are seperate matches? It is almost like there is a 20 year history where that has been the case. Not your tournament, none of your bees wax. Imaginated 2 decades of DE brackets in Starcraft or not. Woah buddy. Never said it was. Read my posts in full and respond in correct English. Also, since I contributed to the prize pool ... I can SURELY posts about the tournament in the tournament thread. Also, you added nothing..... 50k posts of one liner garbage.
I don't think I need to make an elaborate multi paragraph post to explain that it's down to preference of the tournament's organizer and it's absolutely just your personal preference that you don't like it.
Why is it relevant what other competitions do? Dota does 0 advantage for UB winner and FGC requires the LB winner to win 2 series in the finals. It's the the middleground that was decided upon by HSC organizers as the optimal for Starcraft, given the time constraints of the tournament.
In the end it does come out as the proverbial old man shouting at a cloud, only amplified by your aggressive tone, calling people who hold a different opinion "sc2 gropies" or "barnacles of a person". Don't be a fucking dick and expect polite treatment.
Also, if you, as a native speaker, feel the need to tell me to use "correct English", then at least spell "than" properly.
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Obviously you post more then you read.
The aggressive tone and insults did not start with me.
Being told "shhh not your issue" by a spam poster is offensive. Almost as offensive as the polish guy calling me stupid or the other guy 'Let me break it down for your since your a moron".
The entire sc2 community is overly aggressive and combative. I won't be shushed by a spam poster like you, or hinted that my opinions are based upon me being stupid.
My original post, "please consider changing it".
People started being condescending dicks and got treated like it.
You have been a jerk up and down TL.net for a long time. I am treating you like you clearly deserve. You were a dick in every thread for the last week. Don't be shocked when someone responded to your shit.
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On July 03 2019 04:53 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 04:40 AttackZerg wrote:On July 03 2019 04:28 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 04:10 AttackZerg wrote:On July 02 2019 20:02 Majick wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The first game of the grand final was basically the the winners bracket final. How limited are you to not grasp this? If you say that a match is a finite thing then TY should never get a second chance vs Serral as he already lost a series... It is almost as if they are seperate matches? It is almost like there is a 20 year history where that has been the case. Not your tournament, none of your bees wax. Imaginated 2 decades of DE brackets in Starcraft or not. Woah buddy. Never said it was. Read my posts in full and respond in correct English. Also, since I contributed to the prize pool ... I can SURELY posts about the tournament in the tournament thread. Also, you added nothing..... 50k posts of one liner garbage. Also, if you, as a native speaker, feel the need to tell me to use "correct English", then at least spell "than" properly.
I made a spelling error, you wrote a mangled babblefish sentence.
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On July 03 2019 05:05 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 04:53 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 04:40 AttackZerg wrote:On July 03 2019 04:28 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 04:10 AttackZerg wrote:On July 02 2019 20:02 Majick wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
0
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The first game of the grand final was basically the the winners bracket final. How limited are you to not grasp this? If you say that a match is a finite thing then TY should never get a second chance vs Serral as he already lost a series... It is almost as if they are seperate matches? It is almost like there is a 20 year history where that has been the case. Not your tournament, none of your bees wax. Imaginated 2 decades of DE brackets in Starcraft or not. Woah buddy. Never said it was. Read my posts in full and respond in correct English. Also, since I contributed to the prize pool ... I can SURELY posts about the tournament in the tournament thread. Also, you added nothing..... 50k posts of one liner garbage. Also, if you, as a native speaker, feel the need to tell me to use "correct English", then at least spell "than" properly. I made a spelling error, you wrote a mangled babblefish sentence.
You made it again in your previous post btw.
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On July 03 2019 05:06 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:05 AttackZerg wrote:On July 03 2019 04:53 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 04:40 AttackZerg wrote:On July 03 2019 04:28 Ej_ wrote:On July 03 2019 04:10 AttackZerg wrote:On July 02 2019 20:02 Majick wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
0
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The first game of the grand final was basically the the winners bracket final. How limited are you to not grasp this? If you say that a match is a finite thing then TY should never get a second chance vs Serral as he already lost a series... It is almost as if they are seperate matches? It is almost like there is a 20 year history where that has been the case. Not your tournament, none of your bees wax. Imaginated 2 decades of DE brackets in Starcraft or not. Woah buddy. Never said it was. Read my posts in full and respond in correct English. Also, since I contributed to the prize pool ... I can SURELY posts about the tournament in the tournament thread. Also, you added nothing..... 50k posts of one liner garbage. Also, if you, as a native speaker, feel the need to tell me to use "correct English", then at least spell "than" properly. I made a spelling error, you wrote a mangled babblefish sentence. You made it again in your previous post btw.
I should not be attacking people for writing poorly and then doing it myself.
Good point. I'll retire from the thread on that one.
Thanks for the reality check sir (or Mrs.)
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On July 03 2019 04:36 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 21:16 tigon_ridge wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The concept of a tournament is to pit players together, under fair rules that apply equally to all participants, in order to determine who the best performers are, as accurately as possible. Suggesting to monetarily compensate the upper bracket winner, who was unfairly treated by a flawed tournament format, while of good intention is nothing more than offering apology money, or "Hey, we feel bad for robbing you of your fair chance for taking 1st prize, (and in this case you proven that you're better than the official crowned victor), but here, have some money." An advantage in having map decision is peanuts in compensation (imo). " A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared." Except this isn't a normal Bo7, nor should it be. There is absolutely no reason why player B should be crowned the victor over player A, when player A is so blatantly handicapped by having no 2nd chance which player B enjoyed. The problem is that you are perceiving the +1 as the organizers having decided a real game was won, when really it should just be considered as merely a placeholder value. I would agree that the +1 score can be confusing for those unfamiliar with the tournament format, as it suggests the winners-bracket player won more games than he actually did. In my opinion, the +1 should be left out, and the match win should simply be awarded to the winners-bracket player if he wins 3 games, or the lower bracket player if he wins 4 games, and also NOT call it a Bo7. (Perhaps add an asterisk.) If fairness was strictly adhered to, we wouldn't have any losers bracket, provided that the players were properly seated, so that a top elite player doesn't get knocked out of the tournament in the Ro8 because he was unluckily placed against the eventually tournament winner. The reason why we have a losers bracket is that we also want to have the additional factor of accuracy of measuring relative skill, to prevent the suspicions of "player X won due to a fluke of circumstances," or "player Y should've placed much higher but got really unlucky." Now I acknowledge the argument that the losers bracket player oftens has to slug his way back to the top, having to win many more matches. However, these matches are all against players that are by default lower in standing than the winners bracket finalist. Now the fact these players all have a chance at taking a series even off of the supposed best player in the tournament, doesn't make it a probable occurrence, and no tournament can prevent a weaker player from defeating a stronger player. So, the fact that the lower bracket winner has beaten so many of them should not have any bearing on his merit aside from the fact that he'd earned his right to challenge the upper bracket winner. Stripping away the best-performing winners bracket player's critical 2nd chance without just compensation is absolutely the worst possible scenario. Consoling him with money is insulting, and offering arbitrary advantages may work if they're enough, but that's largely a subjective decision, just as the +1 placeholder was a subjectively arrived upon decision. Map decisions alone is nowhere near enough, but that is also just my subjective opinion, as no one has quantified the statistical advantage of being able to dictate what maps and their order are to be played. You provided no new points. You are arguing for something that no other sport that is credible in the world does. Your argument is "Well we must stack the deck in the finals to make it fair". Thank you for pulling back from your "I'm so smart tone" but unfortunately you added more words with less content. Why do your sc2 groupies feel the need to bandwagon. I pointed out the merits to my argument. The entire tournament world operates closer to my ideas then yours. Only this sport has such a moronic "+1 in the finals advantage". Nobody else does that because it literally ruins the finals. The finals, that goal of a tournament is to produce a finals. That's it. The finals of the tournament were champions are made. The finals of this tournament ended with 3/3. That is stupid. I made it clear that I am not susceptible to arguments that "This is the best way". To the polish guy who said "can't get this through your head" Listen Mr. Second language. Holding a separate opinion doesn't make someone stupid. I never asked for your or anyone else opinion. I stated mine. Fully aware of yours. Yours is the way the tournament was run and why the finals were a sad affair with 6 games played. If you want to imply that someone is stupid .... it is probably the people in a niche sport adding fake games in order to falsely quantify the difference between winners and losers brackets. If you want to go that route .... You would have to be a real barnacle of a person to support back rubs for the winners bracket at the cost of a fair finals. Also your argument starts off stupid, There is a losers bracket for every round but the finals. Penalizing someone for having a worse earlier tournament or handicapping the finals is unjustifiable.
SC2 bandwagon groupies? This sport? One tournament format and the people who defend it disagree with your (much less popular by far, trust me) opinion, and you associate it with an entire esport? Right after criticizing me for my condescension (it was justified btw), you decide to one-up me on it, except even directing your negative judgment toward entire swaths of people. You're showing your lack of acuity more and more. Being respectful to people like you isn't warranted.
"Your argument is "Well we must stack the deck in the finals to make it fair"."
Yes. Yes, it is. You advocated it as well, with your "maps order decision" suggestion. And your argument is that it's fine to stack the deck against the most consistent winner, as long as you pay him out. You also failed to address my argument that simply going through losers bracket is not enough to justify having only a single series rematch against the true winner of the single-elimination format, without some additional handicap. If the tournament was a purely single-eliminations format (which is the case for EVERY bigger premier SC2 tournament), the tournament would've ended after the first Serral v TY series, albeit it would be a Bo7 instead of Bo5, and the winner would've been Serral. Merely defeating the 3RD place holder (by definition, A LOSER two rungs below the winner) is nowhere near enough justification for being able to have a no-strings-attached single series rematch with the winner. If you still don't understand this logic by now, I'll just declare you utterly hopeless.
"There is a losers bracket for every round but the finals." Yes, that's why it's unfair for the single-elimination winner...how do you not understand that???
"Penalizing someone for having a worse earlier tournament or handicapping the finals is unjustifiable." NO. He simply hasn't earned a no-strings-attached match against the single-elimination winner is the argument.
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On July 03 2019 05:40 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 04:36 AttackZerg wrote:On July 02 2019 21:16 tigon_ridge wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The concept of a tournament is to pit players together, under fair rules that apply equally to all participants, in order to determine who the best performers are, as accurately as possible. Suggesting to monetarily compensate the upper bracket winner, who was unfairly treated by a flawed tournament format, while of good intention is nothing more than offering apology money, or "Hey, we feel bad for robbing you of your fair chance for taking 1st prize, (and in this case you proven that you're better than the official crowned victor), but here, have some money." An advantage in having map decision is peanuts in compensation (imo). " A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared." Except this isn't a normal Bo7, nor should it be. There is absolutely no reason why player B should be crowned the victor over player A, when player A is so blatantly handicapped by having no 2nd chance which player B enjoyed. The problem is that you are perceiving the +1 as the organizers having decided a real game was won, when really it should just be considered as merely a placeholder value. I would agree that the +1 score can be confusing for those unfamiliar with the tournament format, as it suggests the winners-bracket player won more games than he actually did. In my opinion, the +1 should be left out, and the match win should simply be awarded to the winners-bracket player if he wins 3 games, or the lower bracket player if he wins 4 games, and also NOT call it a Bo7. (Perhaps add an asterisk.) If fairness was strictly adhered to, we wouldn't have any losers bracket, provided that the players were properly seated, so that a top elite player doesn't get knocked out of the tournament in the Ro8 because he was unluckily placed against the eventually tournament winner. The reason why we have a losers bracket is that we also want to have the additional factor of accuracy of measuring relative skill, to prevent the suspicions of "player X won due to a fluke of circumstances," or "player Y should've placed much higher but got really unlucky." Now I acknowledge the argument that the losers bracket player oftens has to slug his way back to the top, having to win many more matches. However, these matches are all against players that are by default lower in standing than the winners bracket finalist. Now the fact these players all have a chance at taking a series even off of the supposed best player in the tournament, doesn't make it a probable occurrence, and no tournament can prevent a weaker player from defeating a stronger player. So, the fact that the lower bracket winner has beaten so many of them should not have any bearing on his merit aside from the fact that he'd earned his right to challenge the upper bracket winner. Stripping away the best-performing winners bracket player's critical 2nd chance without just compensation is absolutely the worst possible scenario. Consoling him with money is insulting, and offering arbitrary advantages may work if they're enough, but that's largely a subjective decision, just as the +1 placeholder was a subjectively arrived upon decision. Map decisions alone is nowhere near enough, but that is also just my subjective opinion, as no one has quantified the statistical advantage of being able to dictate what maps and their order are to be played. You provided no new points. You are arguing for something that no other sport that is credible in the world does. Your argument is "Well we must stack the deck in the finals to make it fair". Thank you for pulling back from your "I'm so smart tone" but unfortunately you added more words with less content. Why do your sc2 groupies feel the need to bandwagon. I pointed out the merits to my argument. The entire tournament world operates closer to my ideas then yours. Only this sport has such a moronic "+1 in the finals advantage". Nobody else does that because it literally ruins the finals. The finals, that goal of a tournament is to produce a finals. That's it. The finals of the tournament were champions are made. The finals of this tournament ended with 3/3. That is stupid. I made it clear that I am not susceptible to arguments that "This is the best way". To the polish guy who said "can't get this through your head" Listen Mr. Second language. Holding a separate opinion doesn't make someone stupid. I never asked for your or anyone else opinion. I stated mine. Fully aware of yours. Yours is the way the tournament was run and why the finals were a sad affair with 6 games played. If you want to imply that someone is stupid .... it is probably the people in a niche sport adding fake games in order to falsely quantify the difference between winners and losers brackets. If you want to go that route .... You would have to be a real barnacle of a person to support back rubs for the winners bracket at the cost of a fair finals. Also your argument starts off stupid, There is a losers bracket for every round but the finals. Penalizing someone for having a worse earlier tournament or handicapping the finals is unjustifiable. SC2 bandwagon groupies? This sport? One tournament format and the people who defend it disagree with your (much less popular by far, trust me) opinion, and you associate it with an entire esport? Right after criticizing me for my condescension (it was justified btw), you decide to one-up me on it, except even directing your negative judgment toward entire swaths of people. You're showing your lack of acuity more and more. Being respectful to people like you isn't warranted. "Your argument is "Well we must stack the deck in the finals to make it fair"."Yes. Yes, it is. You advocated it as well, with your "maps order decision" suggestion. And your argument is that it's fine to stack the deck against the most consistent winner, as long as you pay him out. You also failed to address my argument that simply going through losers bracket is not enough to justify having only a single series rematch against the true winner of the single-elimination format, without some additional handicap. If the tournament was a purely single-eliminations format (which is the case for EVERY bigger premier SC2 tournament), the tournament would've ended after the first Serral v TY series, albeit it would be a Bo7 instead of Bo5, and the winner would've been Serral. Merely defeating the 3RD place holder (by definition, A LOSER two rungs below the winner) is nowhere near enough justification for being able to have a no-strings-attached single series rematch with the winner. If you still don't understand this logic by now, I'll just declare you utterly hopeless. "There is a losers bracket for every round but the finals." Yes, that's why it's unfair for the single-elimination winner...how do you not understand that??? "Penalizing someone for having a worse earlier tournament or handicapping the finals is unjustifiable." NO. He simply hasn't earned a no-strings-attached match against the single-elimination winner is the argument.
You are repeating your same points in an ever more stupid manner.
I did not agree with you. I said " I would entertain the idea" that is not agreement.
3 people are not swaths.
This sport has catered to fanboys and thus has some gabage features such as unbalanced finals.
I spoke against it.
The idea did not come from top players. It came from over catering to fans.
You were an ass, I responded to you like you were one. And now it is my lack of acuity that has earned me so many words and so little respect.
I got it. You are right. Will that make you stop humping a dead horse.
Your words have all been wasted. I said from the beginning that I am against the format full stop.
You have done nothing to move the agenda except to go out of your way to provoke a fight and then cry about the tone, after I asked you to first stop being a dick.
My first post had nothing to do with you.
My second did.
You write your essays. Nobody has changed their mind.
You did help lower the quality of the thread.
Keep being smart. Doesn't make you right. Doesn't make me wrong.
You did engage in discussion just a "oh my god I'm right wtf guy".
Gj. You are the king of the thread.
Still fucking stupid format.
User was warned for this post.
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On July 03 2019 06:07 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2019 05:40 tigon_ridge wrote:On July 03 2019 04:36 AttackZerg wrote:On July 02 2019 21:16 tigon_ridge wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The concept of a tournament is to pit players together, under fair rules that apply equally to all participants, in order to determine who the best performers are, as accurately as possible. Suggesting to monetarily compensate the upper bracket winner, who was unfairly treated by a flawed tournament format, while of good intention is nothing more than offering apology money, or "Hey, we feel bad for robbing you of your fair chance for taking 1st prize, (and in this case you proven that you're better than the official crowned victor), but here, have some money." An advantage in having map decision is peanuts in compensation (imo). " A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared." Except this isn't a normal Bo7, nor should it be. There is absolutely no reason why player B should be crowned the victor over player A, when player A is so blatantly handicapped by having no 2nd chance which player B enjoyed. The problem is that you are perceiving the +1 as the organizers having decided a real game was won, when really it should just be considered as merely a placeholder value. I would agree that the +1 score can be confusing for those unfamiliar with the tournament format, as it suggests the winners-bracket player won more games than he actually did. In my opinion, the +1 should be left out, and the match win should simply be awarded to the winners-bracket player if he wins 3 games, or the lower bracket player if he wins 4 games, and also NOT call it a Bo7. (Perhaps add an asterisk.) If fairness was strictly adhered to, we wouldn't have any losers bracket, provided that the players were properly seated, so that a top elite player doesn't get knocked out of the tournament in the Ro8 because he was unluckily placed against the eventually tournament winner. The reason why we have a losers bracket is that we also want to have the additional factor of accuracy of measuring relative skill, to prevent the suspicions of "player X won due to a fluke of circumstances," or "player Y should've placed much higher but got really unlucky." Now I acknowledge the argument that the losers bracket player oftens has to slug his way back to the top, having to win many more matches. However, these matches are all against players that are by default lower in standing than the winners bracket finalist. Now the fact these players all have a chance at taking a series even off of the supposed best player in the tournament, doesn't make it a probable occurrence, and no tournament can prevent a weaker player from defeating a stronger player. So, the fact that the lower bracket winner has beaten so many of them should not have any bearing on his merit aside from the fact that he'd earned his right to challenge the upper bracket winner. Stripping away the best-performing winners bracket player's critical 2nd chance without just compensation is absolutely the worst possible scenario. Consoling him with money is insulting, and offering arbitrary advantages may work if they're enough, but that's largely a subjective decision, just as the +1 placeholder was a subjectively arrived upon decision. Map decisions alone is nowhere near enough, but that is also just my subjective opinion, as no one has quantified the statistical advantage of being able to dictate what maps and their order are to be played. You provided no new points. You are arguing for something that no other sport that is credible in the world does. Your argument is "Well we must stack the deck in the finals to make it fair". Thank you for pulling back from your "I'm so smart tone" but unfortunately you added more words with less content. Why do your sc2 groupies feel the need to bandwagon. I pointed out the merits to my argument. The entire tournament world operates closer to my ideas then yours. Only this sport has such a moronic "+1 in the finals advantage". Nobody else does that because it literally ruins the finals. The finals, that goal of a tournament is to produce a finals. That's it. The finals of the tournament were champions are made. The finals of this tournament ended with 3/3. That is stupid. I made it clear that I am not susceptible to arguments that "This is the best way". To the polish guy who said "can't get this through your head" Listen Mr. Second language. Holding a separate opinion doesn't make someone stupid. I never asked for your or anyone else opinion. I stated mine. Fully aware of yours. Yours is the way the tournament was run and why the finals were a sad affair with 6 games played. If you want to imply that someone is stupid .... it is probably the people in a niche sport adding fake games in order to falsely quantify the difference between winners and losers brackets. If you want to go that route .... You would have to be a real barnacle of a person to support back rubs for the winners bracket at the cost of a fair finals. Also your argument starts off stupid, There is a losers bracket for every round but the finals. Penalizing someone for having a worse earlier tournament or handicapping the finals is unjustifiable. SC2 bandwagon groupies? This sport? One tournament format and the people who defend it disagree with your (much less popular by far, trust me) opinion, and you associate it with an entire esport? Right after criticizing me for my condescension (it was justified btw), you decide to one-up me on it, except even directing your negative judgment toward entire swaths of people. You're showing your lack of acuity more and more. Being respectful to people like you isn't warranted. "Your argument is "Well we must stack the deck in the finals to make it fair"."Yes. Yes, it is. You advocated it as well, with your "maps order decision" suggestion. And your argument is that it's fine to stack the deck against the most consistent winner, as long as you pay him out. You also failed to address my argument that simply going through losers bracket is not enough to justify having only a single series rematch against the true winner of the single-elimination format, without some additional handicap. If the tournament was a purely single-eliminations format (which is the case for EVERY bigger premier SC2 tournament), the tournament would've ended after the first Serral v TY series, albeit it would be a Bo7 instead of Bo5, and the winner would've been Serral. Merely defeating the 3RD place holder (by definition, A LOSER two rungs below the winner) is nowhere near enough justification for being able to have a no-strings-attached single series rematch with the winner. If you still don't understand this logic by now, I'll just declare you utterly hopeless. "There is a losers bracket for every round but the finals." Yes, that's why it's unfair for the single-elimination winner...how do you not understand that??? "Penalizing someone for having a worse earlier tournament or handicapping the finals is unjustifiable." NO. He simply hasn't earned a no-strings-attached match against the single-elimination winner is the argument. You are repeating your same points in an ever more stupid manner. I did not agree with you. I said " I would entertain the idea" that is not agreement. 3 people are not swaths. This sport has catered to fanboys and thus has some gabage features such as unbalanced finals. I spoke against it. The idea did not come from top players. It came from over catering to fans. You were an ass, I responded to you like you were one. And now it is my lack of acuity that has earned me so many words and so little respect. I got it. You are right. Will that make you stop humping a dead horse. Your words have all been wasted. I said from the beginning that I am against the format full stop. You have done nothing to move the agenda except to go out of your way to provoke a fight and then cry about the tone, after I asked you to first stop being a dick. My first post had nothing to do with you. My second did. You write your essays. Nobody has changed their mind. You did help lower the quality of the thread. Keep being smart. Doesn't make you right. Doesn't make me wrong. You did engage in discussion just a "oh my god I'm right wtf guy". Gj. You are the king of the thread. Still fucking stupid format.i
"Nobody has changed their mind." Speak for yourself.
Several pages later, and not a single point has been refuted. Sorry I didn't respond more politely to someone who is so dense and whiny. Have some kleenex for your grievances.
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Sometimes I wonder if there is legit one guy who multiaccounts and shows up on every thread fully intending to degenerate it into a shitshow belchfest. Like u know what I feel like doing today...having a passionate arguement about the most trivial subjective content possible..plls something new in the tl headlines lmao
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I like when they play to matches. Like TY has to win a Bo5 first, then they play another Bo5. If Serrals wins the first Bo5, he is champ. But it was really late in the night and I don't mind doing it with a one game advantage. I have no idea how someone can go to these length just to discuss something so trivial ^^
The organizers of the event decide how it's done and it was known to all players before.
GG WP Serral
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On July 03 2019 21:52 Harris1st wrote:
I like when they play to matches. Like TY has to win a Bo5 first, then they play another Bo5. If Serrals wins the first Bo5, he is champ. But it was really late in the night and I don't mind doing it with a one game advantage. I have no idea how someone can go to these length just to discuss something so trivial ^^
The organizers of the event decide how it's done and it was known to all players before.
GG WP Serral
Exactly my thoughts. Attackzerg keeps whining about people being combative and mean to him but as far as I see he's the only one acting that way.
In a double elimination bracket, you're not out until you lose 2 sets. Why is this confusing?
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Serral is a beast !
go go go
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Congratulations to Serral - the best player in the world.
I feel really strange for TY. He's lost his own style completely switching into other styles more than a year. Really can't say much positive stuff about my favorite player. The same happened with Soulkey before he retired from SC2 - early aggressive builds and timings.
I understand TY's choice to experiment with more early aggression. He was ultimate god in long macrogames before Rogue/Maru/Dark rises, but other players often rushed him in order to deal with him early. And he was pissed of course. But the new style doesn't bring him titles. I really prefer the old TY...
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When he squeeze those two Home Story Cups to that shelf...
With this tournament winning pace he really need upgrade some furniture. And bulky Circuit trophies need some reinforced platform to be stored securely.
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On July 03 2019 04:36 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2019 21:16 tigon_ridge wrote:On July 02 2019 18:46 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not agree with how this sport has incorporated this system in the past and I am against it now and will be in the future.
I read each and every post in this thread before providing my opinion. You may disagree with me but our disagreement is not from my failure to understand the reasoning for the system.
A match is a finite thing. A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared. I am willing to entertain winner bracket advantages, such as map preference or order, or extra pay but I will never agree with Ghost or Fake games in a bo7.
Take a softer tone. I provided way clearer advocacy for my opinion without being a .... smart guy?
You live in a world where the winners bracket gets a back rub. That isn't the way it has always been and it isn't the way it needs to be. Chill yo. You didn't make any good, new or simplified versions of your argument in your second attempt to reach me. I am not convinced. Bo7 should be first to 4. Your ghost game shit is wack.
And back to my original point - great event, had a blast, my dude won.
Fake games, Ghost games are fake news or send me the replay from game 1 of the finals please. The concept of a tournament is to pit players together, under fair rules that apply equally to all participants, in order to determine who the best performers are, as accurately as possible. Suggesting to monetarily compensate the upper bracket winner, who was unfairly treated by a flawed tournament format, while of good intention is nothing more than offering apology money, or "Hey, we feel bad for robbing you of your fair chance for taking 1st prize, (and in this case you proven that you're better than the official crowned victor), but here, have some money." An advantage in having map decision is peanuts in compensation (imo). " A best of 7 should involve 4 wins and a winner declared." Except this isn't a normal Bo7, nor should it be. There is absolutely no reason why player B should be crowned the victor over player A, when player A is so blatantly handicapped by having no 2nd chance which player B enjoyed. The problem is that you are perceiving the +1 as the organizers having decided a real game was won, when really it should just be considered as merely a placeholder value. I would agree that the +1 score can be confusing for those unfamiliar with the tournament format, as it suggests the winners-bracket player won more games than he actually did. In my opinion, the +1 should be left out, and the match win should simply be awarded to the winners-bracket player if he wins 3 games, or the lower bracket player if he wins 4 games, and also NOT call it a Bo7. (Perhaps add an asterisk.) If fairness was strictly adhered to, we wouldn't have any losers bracket, provided that the players were properly seated, so that a top elite player doesn't get knocked out of the tournament in the Ro8 because he was unluckily placed against the eventually tournament winner. The reason why we have a losers bracket is that we also want to have the additional factor of accuracy of measuring relative skill, to prevent the suspicions of "player X won due to a fluke of circumstances," or "player Y should've placed much higher but got really unlucky." Now I acknowledge the argument that the losers bracket player oftens has to slug his way back to the top, having to win many more matches. However, these matches are all against players that are by default lower in standing than the winners bracket finalist. Now the fact these players all have a chance at taking a series even off of the supposed best player in the tournament, doesn't make it a probable occurrence, and no tournament can prevent a weaker player from defeating a stronger player. So, the fact that the lower bracket winner has beaten so many of them should not have any bearing on his merit aside from the fact that he'd earned his right to challenge the upper bracket winner. Stripping away the best-performing winners bracket player's critical 2nd chance without just compensation is absolutely the worst possible scenario. Consoling him with money is insulting, and offering arbitrary advantages may work if they're enough, but that's largely a subjective decision, just as the +1 placeholder was a subjectively arrived upon decision. Map decisions alone is nowhere near enough, but that is also just my subjective opinion, as no one has quantified the statistical advantage of being able to dictate what maps and their order are to be played. You provided no new points. You are arguing for something that no other sport that is credible in the world does. Your argument is "Well we must stack the deck in the finals to make it fair". Thank you for pulling back from your "I'm so smart tone" but unfortunately you added more words with less content. Why do your sc2 groupies feel the need to bandwagon. I pointed out the merits to my argument. The entire tournament world operates closer to my ideas then yours. Only this sport has such a moronic "+1 in the finals advantage". Nobody else does that because it literally ruins the finals. The finals, that goal of a tournament is to produce a finals. That's it. The finals of the tournament were champions are made. The finals of this tournament ended with 3/3. That is stupid. I made it clear that I am not susceptible to arguments that "This is the best way". To the polish guy who said "can't get this through your head" Listen Mr. Second language. Holding a separate opinion doesn't make someone stupid. I never asked for your or anyone else opinion. I stated mine. Fully aware of yours. Yours is the way the tournament was run and why the finals were a sad affair with 6 games played. If you want to imply that someone is stupid .... it is probably the people in a niche sport adding fake games in order to falsely quantify the difference between winners and losers brackets. If you want to go that route .... You would have to be a real barnacle of a person to support back rubs for the winners bracket at the cost of a fair finals. Also your argument starts off stupid, There is a losers bracket for every round but the finals. Penalizing someone for having a worse earlier tournament or handicapping the finals is unjustifiable.
From Wikipedia:
One such athletic event that employs a double-elimination format is the NCAA baseball tournament, including the College World Series, where a team is not eliminated until it loses twice in each of the four rounds (regional, super regional, College World Series, and CWS championship, with the super regional and CWS championship series featuring two teams in a best-of-3 format). The NCAA softball tournament (including the Women's College World Series) uses the same format. The Little League World Series switched from round-robin to double-elimination formats for each of its pools starting in 2010 in an effort to eliminate meaningless games.
It is also used in video game tournaments and table football tournaments. Double-elimination brackets are also popular in amateur wrestling of all levels, pool, surfing, windsurfing and kiteboarding freestyle competitions, as well as Curling bonspiels (where triple-elimination is also used), Hardcourt Bike Polo. The World Baseball Classic used a double-elimination format for its second rounds of the tournament in 2009 and 2013, as well as in its first round in 2009. In contract bridge, the English Bridge Union Spring Foursomes, first contested in 1962, uses a double elimination format.[2][3]
It is also used, in modified form, in the All-Ireland Senior Gaelic Football Championship and All-Ireland Senior Hurling Championship.
Double elimination means you lose twice. It means that around the world in every sport that utilizes double elimination. it doesn't mean "lose twice, except in the finals because AttackZerg has a strong opinion about what makes him excited or not".
Giving one game to Serral, if anything, is a smaller advantage.
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EPT
Serral proved himself to be the sole deterrent to total Korean dominance in StarCraft II, defeating a mixed field of international and Korean players to win HomeStory Cup 19. Serral completed the tournament with a 9-1 match record (24-8 map score), defeating 
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