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On April 09 2019 20:50 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 17:31 Harris1st wrote:
Honest question: Why do you guys think the "new blood" Koreans don't qualify for ST or GSL?
It can't be the infamous "teamhouse eviroment" because those don't exist anymire besides JAGW
I doubt it's lack of practice, with ladder as an option and stuff like Olimoleague on a regular basis I think it's a mix of lack of opportunities (you'll most likely have to beat a GSL champion in order to qualify for Code S) and the lack of longterm-secure structures (which was provided by the teamhouses). Newcomers have no place to shine and get serious tournament practice with broadcasted matches and get at least some prize money. Having no teams also means there is nobody who pays you for just practicing in hope that some day you'll break through.
But the situation is the same around the globe. Sure EU/ NA competition is a bit weaker than GSL. Everything else is the same. And it seems to work, just not in Korea.
You don't need to get paid when you are a 14-16 yr old kid TBH. You can easily play 6+ hours a day while attending school (at least I did back in the day ^^' )
The "breakthrough" is the same for everyone, be it basketball, tennis or whatever. It works just for 0,01 %. Deal with it. Live goes on.
I mean, don't get me wrong. Code A would be awesome. Even if it is online (for the most part), with experienced casters and decent production value. And it wouldn't be that expensive
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On April 08 2019 23:15 MarianoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2019 23:07 Xain0n wrote:On April 08 2019 22:26 deacon.frost wrote:On April 08 2019 21:48 Xain0n wrote:On April 08 2019 21:06 Charoisaur wrote:On April 08 2019 20:48 swarminfestor wrote:
What's wrong with Korean Terran players? Only 2 of them in the ro 16. Even Special also cannot advances.
Where are all new bloods? Maru exists so every other terran player has to suffer. I shouldn't be the one to tell you Inno won WESG(only Terran can win that tournament, apparently. Will they move the next to the second half of 2020 so that Byun could play it?); if you are right about Terran not being as strong as the other races, it's both Code S format(TY could have easily S3 2018) and Maru being incapable of releasing his full potential in weekenders that are condemning the race. TvZ, in fact, seems fair(if not Terran favored late game) while TvP is a polarized and boring matchup whose win ratios are reasonable at the end of the day. I still think IEM groupstages were a weird anomaly(the opponents were known in advance, there was time to prepare for each of them), while the last korean qualifiers including this one are showing a worrying Protoss overabundance at the expense of Terran; I mean, I am glad the Bigggg Boy is back but Patience and Hurricane instead of TY and Bunny really hurts. Judging by the lineup I'd say either Rogue or Stats/Classic/Zest/sOs/herO is gonna win this; if Maru doesn't take home his fourth Code S, I'd be actually pleasantly surprised to see him add a Super Tournament to his record of achievements. How about we will use WCS as the Terran suffering tournament? We obviously can't have Terrans there... WESG these top players there. Dark(Z), Serral(Z), Innovation(T) and Maru(T). Serral removed Dark from the equation and from then onwards we had pretty high chances of T winning the whole thing, because Scarlett isn't good enough(which wasn't as much true, but still...) and Serral has weak ZvT against good Koreans. Using WESG is as stupid as it can get. Edit> Or how about we use IEM? Except Code S Terrans are not playing especially good in weekenders. And ST just proves the IEM state. Terrans can prepare and show good builds, Terrans can overcome worse players, otherwise it seems they're incapable of qualifying. Edit 2> Oh, shouldn't just scim through. So IEM was annomaly. And GSL ST is another anomaly? How many more anomalies?  Unfortunately, your unpleasant approach is not one anomaly; treating likely(?) happenings as they were obvious and granted truly is stupid, definitely not remembering a non Maru Terran won 150k in a Premier tournament few weeks ago. The idea of Serral having weak ZvT against good koreans is a myth you guys gave birth to; he actually lost quite closely against Inno alone and then got pwnd by Heromarine before totally dismantling him yesterday. You come up with Maru 3-0ing Serral at WESG 2017 but he wasn't yet the top tier player he became afterwards:Serral's ZvT looked very sharp at GSL vs the World;,while ZvT is Serral's weakest matchup overall he wasn't especially weak at the matchup in 2019, he just isn't on god level tier at the moment having lost three series in ZvT, three in ZvZ and one in ZvP already this year. I'm not sure if you can actually read the entirety of my posts before rushing to answer me with basically memes, but I outright said IEM seems like one anomaly since, despite it's a weekender, Terran did have problems getting through the groups the had weeks to prepare for(the "Terran is weak at the weekenders" theory would have implied eliminations in the playoffs); moreover, I said the qualifiers for both Code S(the main phase told us a different truth, but that's coherent with the idea Terran get better if they have time to prepare) and Super Tournament are indeed showing a disproportionate amount of Protoss qualifying over Terran. Serral got totally smashed by Inno twice in a row. Then lost to a foreign terran in heromarine. His ZvT is weak, Maru would humiliate him yet again if they meet sometime this year. Moreover, Serral is a patchzerg. Even TL agrees, there was an article about it last week.
When people don't know what is april's fool aka april the first. U made my day haha
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PvT winrate on the current ladder map pool (which will probably go into the Super Tournament unchanged) as per Liquipedia:
Cyber Forest - 104-58, 64.4%
Automaton - 140-100, 58.3%
Year Zero - 50-38, 56.8%
Port Aleksander - 179-150, 54.4%
Yeonsu - 229-192, 54.4%
Kairos Junction - 211-195, 52.0%
King's Cove - 67-79, 46.9%
New Repugnancy - 45-53, 45.9%
Added Yeonsu as reference for a map that was considered genuinely broken (not just in 1 match-up either). If we're really gonna advocate for changes, this should be the first thing we look into as a short term measure.
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On April 09 2019 23:32 Elentos wrote:
PvT winrate on the current ladder map pool (which will probably go into the Super Tournament unchanged) as per Liquipedia:
Cyber Forest - 104-58, 64.4%
Automaton - 140-100, 58.3%
Year Zero - 50-38, 56.8%
Port Aleksander - 179-150, 54.4%
Yeonsu - 229-192, 54.4%
Kairos Junction - 211-195, 52.0%
King's Cove - 67-79, 46.9%
New Repugnancy - 45-53, 45.9%
Added Yeonsu as reference for a map that was considered genuinely broken (not just in 1 match-up either). If we're really gonna advocate for changes, this should be the first thing we look into as a short term measure.
It's definitely reasonable. The damage is done already for this tournament, tho, I feel like PvZ winrates are going to be definitely more relevant here.
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On April 09 2019 21:12 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 16:20 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 09 2019 04:29 Nakajin wrote:On April 09 2019 03:15 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 08 2019 22:54 PharaphobiaSC wrote:On April 08 2019 20:50 fronkschnonk wrote:
It's really disappointing when players who have potential or are coming back often just seem to opt out of competition when it gets serious:
Taeja seemingly did not show up vs MC and then vs alive in the LB.
TREME, an old face from 2015 also donated def-wins to his opponents.
Dandy didn't try either although his opponent impact could've been doable for him.
DRG also let his chance of a kind of easy first opponent in Patience slip away.
I mean, yes, there always can happen stuff that hinders you and playing against the best of the best is probably quite intimidating but I see this so often that it is just unlikely that this is not some kind of nerves/anxiety/motivation-problem. It's so sad because I think those players are giving opportunites away and by deciding to rather not participate they're making it even more unlikely that they'll climb to the top, ever.
Especially players like Taeja and Dandy who are on a team should have some kind of conscientiousness.
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This is why I still think we need some kind of Code A in Korea in order to give realistic opportunities to lesser players. And who is gonna pay for that =) ? I wrote about this earlier. I think one could skip GSL vs the World. The saved prize money and event costs should be more than enough to support a small Code A. People actually what GSL vs the world tho, it make some money and publicity if you want to cut something your better with a Super Tournament who have less viewership, let's be honest almost no one would wake up at 4 am to watch Dandy vs Keen. Olimoleague rarelly has more then 2000-2500 people all stream combine and it's the best in the words. Neither is Olimoleague offline nor is it presented by famous casters. Also there wouldn't be only Keen and Dandy in it but also every now and then some big names. But I'm open to other ideas about how to support new blood in the korean scene. I just see: there exists new blood but it has almost no chance to rise up because of the top heavy competition. Region lock proved that indeed a lack of opportunities was a major reason for the foreign scene to shrink. The same does apply for the korean scene. I'm not saying not to do it, but if you have to sacrify something better a ST then GSLvsTW, code A would be nice but it's clearly an investment not a profitable venture at this time or at least not as profitable as an elite tournament. I would like to see it, but honestly I can't see Blizz putting that much money while cutting other tournament prize pools and production for example they just stop financing Ladder Heroes who was dedicated to grow the NA and EU up and comer and it cost nothing compare to an offline code A. I really would like to have code A, but I just don't think it's realistic atm, maybe amateur online cup is a better way to go.
I see your point. But I also think that korean SC2 needs some longterm-investment in order to exist in the long run. This is only possible by supporting new talents.
But you're right that something less costly could be at least something. That's why I said some kind of Code A.
On April 09 2019 22:17 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 20:50 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 09 2019 17:31 Harris1st wrote:
Honest question: Why do you guys think the "new blood" Koreans don't qualify for ST or GSL?
It can't be the infamous "teamhouse eviroment" because those don't exist anymire besides JAGW
I doubt it's lack of practice, with ladder as an option and stuff like Olimoleague on a regular basis I think it's a mix of lack of opportunities (you'll most likely have to beat a GSL champion in order to qualify for Code S) and the lack of longterm-secure structures (which was provided by the teamhouses). Newcomers have no place to shine and get serious tournament practice with broadcasted matches and get at least some prize money. Having no teams also means there is nobody who pays you for just practicing in hope that some day you'll break through. But the situation is the same around the globe. Sure EU/ NA competition is a bit weaker than GSL. Everything else is the same. And it seems to work, just not in Korea. You don't need to get paid when you are a 14-16 yr old kid TBH. You can easily play 6+ hours a day while attending school (at least I did back in the day ^^' ) The "breakthrough" is the same for everyone, be it basketball, tennis or whatever. It works just for 0,01 %. Deal with it. Live goes on. I mean, don't get me wrong. Code A would be awesome. Even if it is online (for the most part), with experienced casters and decent production value. And it wouldn't be that expensive
Nah, the situation isn't the same around the globe. Korea is incredibly stacked with veteran players who are easily capable of dismantling most newcomers in the first rounds of any qualifier or at Olimoleague. In WCS players have the possibility to make a name for themselves in their region. So the problem of the korean scene is not that it doesn't support enough players but it provides no opportunities for new talent to rise to the top and thus will crumble some day in quality when more and more veterans will retire.
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But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you.
I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now
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On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote:
But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you.
I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now
The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 10 2019 18:50 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote:
But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you.
I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too.
Mostly because splitting Korea into 2 regions so more newbies have a chance is not a good idea. Korea still has a deep-ish player pool and it doesn't help foreigners are allowed and make it even more deep.
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On April 10 2019 18:50 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote:
But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you.
I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too.
Would you care to elaborate? I have no idea at all at what you are getting at
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 10 2019 20:24 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 18:50 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote:
But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you.
I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too. Would you care to elaborate? I have no idea at all at what you are getting at
Foreigners are self-explanatory. I skip them
You have 2 main regions of WCS - NA, Eu. This means that you don't compete against all the top players at the same time while at the end on the main event you compete against them. Then you have more fragmented situation(Eu qualifier, NA qualifier, China/Hong Kong qualifier etc.). At the same time all the players are tied to their region and to the main event 64 players(I believe that was the group stage #1 amount) are competing.
Basically by fragmenting the scene and tying the player to their respected region you lower the number of top players you compete against. The main events are for all the regions, but the regions send their representatives.
And you cannot do this in Korea that easily, as most of the pro players live in Seoul and closely around. (also insert a random joke about the last geographical splitting of Korea) Remember, you need to tie the players to their region otherwise they can try again and again.
Edit> IEM qualifiers are a great example. Oh, I didn't qualify via Korean bracket? Let me try American!
Splitting itself isn't the only thing, you need more payed placements. top32 Koreans are on average better than top32 foreigners. This means it's easier to get into top32 foreigners than Koreans. Up until top4 it's way harder to place in Korea than in WCS. Then the difference is way smaller, but we're talking about newbies.
Newbie needs to feel a chance to place. If you're good enough you have a chance to place in WCS because the competition is fragmented and on average lower. The competition in Korea is concentrated and on average higher(in skill).
Edit2> also while there are no team houses per se, the players know each other and have social connection. So they train with each other even without the teamhouses(now maybe even more as they're not limited by teamhouses ). If you're a newbie in Korea can you access the top players and train with them? I don't know how open to new players they are, this is something else to consider, the "old guard" not accepting new players while keeping the skill among themselves. It's not just about APM, but game planning, build creation, race discussion. But I have no idea how this works in Korea(or in foreigner lands  )
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On April 10 2019 20:24 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 18:50 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 10 2019 17:41 Harris1st wrote:
But if you can't win vs someone who just came back from a 2 year military service, maybe becoming a Starcraft pro isn't for you.
I think the bigger problem is that most young, talented gamers don't wanna try Starcraft at all. It is a hard game after all. LoL, Dota, Fortnite, next big thing are just more attractive games right now The fact that region lock kind of revitalized the foreign scene disproves your point. I don't see why giving more opportunities to new talents shouldn't work in South Korea, too. Would you care to elaborate? I have no idea at all at what you are getting at
Well, the foreign scene wasn't as vital a few years ago. With Koreans playing in all big tournaments new foreign talents had a hard time to achieve meaningful results and prizemoney to justify that carreer path in the long run. When WCS got region locked suddenly foreigners had a real chance to get to high placements and earn some money of it. Before region lock newbes often didn't even qualify for events, now with region lock new talents can climb higher step by step.
What happened? The region lock which locked Koreans out from most WCS-Competition created more opportunities for "local heroes" to become better players and eventually rise to the top and make a living of it.
I think it should be possible to do the same for the korean scene which is stacked too much in basically one hard competition (GSL). An "amateur" or B-Tier league (like Code A) would create such opportunities. Another possibility could be to finance a talent-team.
If you want to discuss the topic in detail, here is a link to the "How to get new blood into SC2 in South Korea?"-topic I started.
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Got it. Thanks guys 
So we would need a tournament on a somewhat regular basis which would lock out GSL (Ro32 or Ro16 players at least) and non-koreans.
That doesn't seem an impossible task for community figures and streamers IMO. You don't really need Blizz for that.
Some cooperation of Crank/Korean Streamer and Rifkin/Wardi/Rotti should do. Start out with an online only tournament (monthly?) and small prize pool. If it goes well, yeah. If not, not much lost
Edit: Did not read the complete "new blood" thread. Probably my idea or a variation of it is in there already ^^'
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EPT
