EPT4.7.0 Patch Notes & Final Balance Changes - Page 9
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VamosSC
21 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On December 10 2018 08:41 VamosSC wrote: Terran has so many strong options vs P and you all seem to want to make Straight up mech super powerful? Its called mix in some bio with the mech, Tanks are great, widow mines, even hellions have a big role. Point is, there are plenty of really strong factory units, just going pure factory is almost never good sorry but isn't they have been asking for pure mech and no bio bullshit involving for years?.don't comment like you have no clue what is happenig in this forum and throw out random stuffs like that.get lost...and give up your anti mech ideal if you really had one because it ain't gonna work.that ideal have not been working for over 5 damn years! //the mass tempests strats clearly is still beatable with teaja/byun pure ghosts and vikings old shit strats plus raven tho.but they are ghosts not thors.i really dislike any air to air solution so viking being a little less cost effect versus new tempests is fine by me.lets give thors jim raynor's nitro boost or something ?? User was warned for this post. | ||
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hjkim1304
Korea (South)105 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
I dont see terran players complaining about seige tank range, marines, the ability of the updated cyclone to kite anything to death in the early game, etc It's not enough for terran players that they get the most efficient units in the game, all of which are ranged, scale well, and complement each other well. They want to make sure they are always the ones doing the kiting and not protoss or zerg. They can melt more expensive protoss/zerg ground armies with stimmed MMM kiting, and enough seige tanks can lay waste to any protoss ground army, but then they cry when the other two races finally tech to expensive specialized air units (temptest/broodlord) to even stand a chance against their pound-for-pound efficient mech units. Tempests are pretty fragile and have low DPS. but they are mobile and have a big range. I know terrans are used to nothing being able to take on mech head on but maybe they should realize that in a balanced game no style should be invincible? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 10 2018 09:59 seemsgood wrote: sorry but isn't they have been asking for pure mech and no bio bullshit involving for years?.don't comment like you have no clue what is happenig in this forum and throw out random stuffs like that.get lost...and give up your anti mech ideal if you really had one because it ain't gonna work.that ideal have not been working for over 5 damn years! //the mass tempests strats clearly is still beatable with teaja/byun pure ghosts and vikings old shit strats plus raven tho.but they are ghosts not thors.i really dislike any air to air solution so viking being a little less cost effect versus new tempests is fine by me.lets give thors jim raynor's nitro boost or something ?? That would require bio nerf, because if you make pure mech doable, then imagine what happens when you combina mech and bio... | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I have even got mech to work consistenly in TvP macro games. I am going mass mine/tank supported by vikings/hellion in a large push after I have established my 3rd. Then I continue attacking not stop until the game ends. If he add tempest/carriers I just add thors and turrets to my mines and continue to play aggressively, never letting him build up the perfect death ball. Granted this is only Diamond. But I see no reason why this could not work on Master level as well. I am not saying this would work on Pro level. But 99% of the players are not pro players, and on ladder level almost anything works if you are playing it right. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2627 Posts
On December 10 2018 16:15 deacon.frost wrote: That would require bio nerf, because if you make pure mech doable, then imagine what happens when you combina mech and bio... You know what happens? Nothing happens. People said that after they removed tankivacs and buffed tanks and guess what? Nothing happened, mech and bio can both be perfectly viable. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 11 2018 01:36 Lexender wrote: You know what happens? Nothing happens. People said that after they removed tankivacs and buffed tanks and guess what? Nothing happened, mech and bio can both be perfectly viable. So what's the point of the recent whine since MECH IS VIABLE? Either it's not fully viable as some claim, or is fully viable as you claim. So far I am on the side of "it's not fully viable" as P myself. And I play in a wooden league where everything should work, yet mech players has to be a league above me  But maybe I'm just lucky on bad meching Terrans So, meching community, can you finally decide whether it is viable or isn't? | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1075 Posts
On December 11 2018 01:42 deacon.frost wrote: So what's the point of the recent whine since MECH IS VIABLE? Either it's not fully viable as some claim, or is fully viable as you claim. So far I am on the side of "it's not fully viable" as P myself. And I play in a wooden league where everything should work, yet mech players has to be a league above me But maybe I'm just lucky on bad meching Terrans So, meching community, can you finally decide whether it is viable or isn't? mech is... fully viable vZ and perhaps the best strategy vZ. just ignore avilo's inability to deal with swarm hosts. GM mechanics, platinum league game sense fully viable vT not fully viable vP the most elegant way to make it viable vP without affecting the other match-ups too much... anti-plasma cannons upgrade at the techlab. costs 150 minerals, 150 gas. requires armory. deals bonus damage to shields, similar to the widow mine's sentinel missile replace thors with goliaths and +3 range charon boosters upgrade. thors seem to be completely extinct vZ anyways | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2627 Posts
On December 11 2018 01:42 deacon.frost wrote: So what's the point of the recent whine since MECH IS VIABLE? Either it's not fully viable as some claim, or is fully viable as you claim. So far I am on the side of "it's not fully viable" as P myself. And I play in a wooden league where everything should work, yet mech players has to be a league above me But maybe I'm just lucky on bad meching Terrans So, meching community, can you finally decide whether it is viable or isn't? I don't know if you are trolling or do you really think you are smart with such an obviously dumb statement... A SHODAN said, every mech player that isn't an Avilo wannabe knows that mech is viable in TvZ and TvT and that it has never been viable vsP. Viability isn't an absolute statement, this is a game with 3 races after all. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 11 2018 06:25 Lexender wrote: I don't know if you are trolling or do you really think you are smart with such an obviously dumb statement... A SHODAN said, every mech player that isn't an Avilo wannabe knows that mech is viable in TvZ and TvT and that it has never been viable vsP. Viability isn't an absolute statement, this is a game with 3 races after all. Well I agree, but then don't say it's viable when the biggest whines in this thread is TvP mech. It's not FULLY viable. If the mech should becoma fully viable(PvT included), then it would require bio nerf. IMO That was my point  | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On December 10 2018 16:15 deacon.frost wrote: That would require bio nerf, because if you make pure mech doable, then imagine what happens when you combina mech and bio... it doesn't hurt it we buff thor tho.not the it's plash mode ofc and you can choose either viking or thors to deal with protoss air but right now viking is still a better giant slayer despite being weaker against tempests.it's about the other option.terran can go ghosts + vikings if they choose to play bio but don't force mech terran to do the same while leaving thors in dust for years.blizzard:other giants can't beat the giant slayer when no one builds them #rollsafe | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On December 10 2018 16:36 MockHamill wrote: Mech is perfectly viable in all matchups for at least 99% of the playerbase. I have even got mech to work consistenly in TvP macro games. I am going mass mine/tank supported by vikings/hellion in a large push after I have established my 3rd. Then I continue attacking not stop until the game ends. If he add tempest/carriers I just add thors and turrets to my mines and continue to play aggressively, never letting him build up the perfect death ball. Granted this is only Diamond. But I see no reason why this could not work on Master level as well. I am not saying this would work on Pro level. But 99% of the players are not pro players, and on ladder level almost anything works if you are playing it right. mech is fucking viable for sure i enjoy every supernova's game so far and i swear pro mech players die to toss's timing push and multi harrass way much more than by air toss | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1075 Posts
On December 11 2018 07:18 deacon.frost wrote: Well I agree, but then don't say it's viable when the biggest whines in this thread is TvP mech. It's not FULLY viable. If the mech should becoma fully viable(PvT included), then it would require bio nerf. IMO Bio-mech (let's say 7 raxx, 3 factory, 1 starport on 3 bases) has distinct weaknesses that would offset any prospect of breaking the game: 1) bio and mechanical do not share the same weapon / armor upgrades 2) researching techlab upgrades for bio AND mech is expensive and requires a serious sacrifice in other areas take my suggestion for anti-plasma cannons. 150/150, armory requirement, 121 second research time. a bio / tank player would not be able to afford this upgrade on 2-bases. there will be no change to the strength of 2-base bio / tank all-ins, for example. this upgrade would not directly benefit bio and would slow the development of bio in other areas. supplementing bio with tanks would strip bio of its core advantage vs protoss: mobility. babysitting all those tanks will make bio-mech almost as slow and immobile as a pure-factory mech player. the bio ball would act as a fast arm to punch when the opportunity arises... but most of the time, you'd need to keep your hand in your pocket. P could be much more mobile with colossus and disruptors. the Bio-mech player would not be able to afford ship weapons and ship weapons. you either have tanks, with increased staying power on the ground, or viking / liberator, for increased mobility. you can't have it all! if you try to have it all, you will have a weaker maxed army. 75% of your army will be upgraded. the other 25% will be unupgraded. if you go pure bio / viking / liberator, 100% of your army benefits from upgrades. how would this affect pure tank-based mech? tanks already do increased damage vs armored. if you give tanks an additional bonus vs shields, an anti-plasma tank might be able to 2-shot a zealot, 3-shot an adept, and 2-shot a stalker. without the upgrade, tanks in siege mode 4-shot a zealot, 4-shot an adept and 3-shot a stalker. immortals would also be more squishy. I guess the game would involve toss getting ahead on economy and making inefficient trades with mass zealot / adept to keep the tank count low, while buying time to get carriers. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
User was warned for this post. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1075 Posts
On December 13 2018 18:03 insitelol wrote: mech players lol when people say this, what they are really saying is, "fuck terran players" and "fuck sc2" it's a super effective caricature. it conjures the image of avilo into your head. you imagine that everyone who makes a case for mech is a clone of avilo, got his ideas from avilo, or is in some way tainted by avilo. this neatly discredits any suggestion to change factory units, no matter how reasonable the suggestion it doesn't matter if you play bio 99% of the time when you roll terran, or you play all 3 races to a competent level. if gumiho, ty or special made a smurf account on TL and wrote why factory units should be changed / improved in some way, they would still get responses saying "mech players lol" the caricature has become so effective, that there are even fellow terran players on ladder who "kys" or "get cancer" if their opponent plays "mech" in TvT why am I writing mech in air quotes? because there is no mech play in TvT. it doesn't exist. it's imaginary like humpty dumpty. mechanical firebats inside 6 medivacs, boosted and dumped on top of bio, while you have 1 viking more than your opponent is not mech play. it's firebat + tank. the firebats are the core unit of this composition, not the tanks. the tanks are used as a support unit. for a play style to be called "mech", the core unit most be non-infantry style. the only true mech style that has ever existed in sc2 is cyclone / hellion / banshee vZ, or cyclone / hellion / widow mine vZ (the hellions spend most of the game in hellion form). notice the complete absence of tanks mech play =/= factory units mech play =/= mass tanks does anyone enjoy viking vs viking? no does anyone enjoy thor vs anything? no I would love for someone to explain to me why thors and vikings are fun, interesting units which contribute to the strategic depth of the game (they can't and they don't, but go ahead and try). I want hellbats, thors and vikings to be removed from the game or heavily redesigned. what have you got to lose? nobody makes thors anyway. viewership is at an all-time low. so many players have quit because it's all so tiresome. I don't care if tanks are relegated to a support unit in every match-up. tanks don't have to be the core unit in ANY match-up. we need a terran factory / starport unit which can serve as the core of an alternative composition, one that plays nothing like infantry... NOT a mechanical imitation of infantry everyone - and I mean, EVERYONE - hated the design of hellbats at the start of hots. everyone has amenably grown to tolerate them over time and turn a blind eye... the attitude is: oh well, guess we're stuck with this unmicroable unit... well guess wat? IF YOU AREN'T PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM (NOTE: medivac drop micro = medivac micro, not hellbat micro. same goes for pre-patch a-move cyclones and thors inside a medivac. without a medivac, these units have no dick and no balls) you could pull the first idea that comes out of your asshole and it would still be an improvement over the hellbat. let's reach in and see what's cooking... how about give hellions the Unstable Concoction ability from wc3 (via techlab upgrade) which makes them explode and destroy the hellion?? like ground scourges?? that would be fun, right? better than gay firebats that walk like constipated ducks, right?? MECH =/= CONSTIPATED DUCKS heavily change thors, or replace thors with goliaths. do something more interesting with vikings. Blizzard raised the bar high with lock-on cyclones. I expect them to use that standard to resolve the factory / starport AA identity crisis. lock-on cyclones are one of the best designed units ever to grace an RTS game. it is the quintessential kiting unit. bio has stutter stepping, but not this kind of uninterrupted, high-speed kiting. lock-on cyclones have such a unique synergy with hellions, widow mines and banshees that it offers a completely different style to MMM/4M. its relationship to other units is completely different to MMM (e.g. lock-on cyclones laugh at ultralisks like they are cuddly toys, whereas bio has to flee under liberation zones). speed-mech vZ has already started to become high brow korean meta (though I wish they would make widow mines vs banelings, instead of so many banshees!) doubting thomas and moaning myrtle say blizz will never make factory units core vP. just look what they've done to wc3 lately. totally fresh unit compositions and hero choices, which have dramatically revitalized the game. anything can happen in sc2. there's never been a better time to be vocal about design suggestions in sc2 | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On December 13 2018 18:03 insitelol wrote: mech players lol I'm pretty sure the reason mech keeps getting buffed is because blizzard literally only see mech players comments not ur... Who doesn't like wall of text tho.. Especially game developers | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On December 13 2018 22:57 seemsgood wrote: I'm pretty sure the reason mech keeps getting buffed is because blizzard literally only see mech players comments not ur... Who doesn't like wall of text tho.. Especially game developers You tend to express yourself in a more "acceptable" form for sure (no sarcasm), but the truth is we both got a warning =). The thing is this mech rant just seems so pathetic to me, i can't really force myself to take it seriously anymore. Just trying to compromise mech lobbists position by trolling them (without decent success i admit it). I guess the only option left for us (sane people) is to completely ignore them. Which is hard for a community as a whole. p.s. I know i could get a ban for this, but for the sake of just being consistent, i was not the ONE who started that (loling at mechers). Why did everyone else get away with that with no warining? Thank you. p.p.s. just noticed that SHODAN actually got the message! Kudos mate. That's exactly what i wanted. Project avilo's image to peoples heads when they hear "mech". | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States677 Posts
On December 14 2018 00:01 insitelol wrote: You tend to express yourself in a more "acceptable" form for sure (no sarcasm), but the truth is we both got a warning =). The thing is this mech rant just seems so pathetic to me, i can't really force myself to take it seriously anymore. Just trying to compromise mech lobbists position by trolling them (without decent success i admit it). I guess the only option left for us (sane people) is to completely ignore them. Which is hard for a community as a whole. p.s. I know i could get a ban for this, but for the sake of just being consistent, i was not the ONE who started that (loling at mechers). Why did everyone else get away with that with no warining? Thank you. p.p.s. just noticed that SHODAN actually got the message! Kudos mate. That's exactly what i wanted. Project avilo's image to peoples heads when they hear "mech". Most serious starcraft fans / players aren't going to balance whine at the start of a new patch. They'll be too busy playing or watching matches. | ||
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VamosSC
21 Posts
You need to realize that the more solid options that are given to any race, the stronger they will automatically be because they will have the ability to vary play styles more and be unpredictable. Now thats not necessarily a bad thing (all races should have some variability). However, I personally feel that Terran has many solid options already. I completely disagree with the argument that Terran is forced to only do the same thing every game. If you think Terran has limited options you are IMO just very uncreative. | ||
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