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I've played about 400 Terran games on this new patch. My MMR is a little over 5k. I like experimenting with new builds so I'm OK when I go on losing streaks to sacrifice losses for improvement and better gameplay.
Looking at my W/L I see the biggest impact is TvP. I mech versus all three races and my W/L has dropped 10% versus Protoss. It has dropped TvT too, but that is because of some non-friendly mech maps.
I attribute the sharp decline in TvP due to what we've seen in previous patches: The inability for Terran to punish Protoss early game, then their economy explodes. If you recall, two patches ago, when the Cyclone was what it is today (due to the revert) we also had Window Mines. During the time with the old Cyclone, WM's could not be detected on spawn. Since the Cyclone was not very good out-of-the-box, Terran players relied on early game WM harass. Then, on the previous patch, Blizzard made the WM detectable but made the Cyclone a very strong harass early game unit - so a bit of a trade off. Now, with this latest patch, we have the old Cyclone but WM CAN be detected early game; therefore, over the last 18 months, Terran has a NET LOSS in early gameplay harass.
To comment on Protoss late game, the Tempest is pretty comical in its speed buff: WM can't catch them, Thors can't catch them, BC's can't catch them, and they are about as fast as Vikings. And don't forget recall, that is, if you actually happen to strategically out maneuver your opponent. You could nerf the Tempest HP to 1 HP and it doesn't really matter when you're dealing with a lighting fast unit. It's just frustrating when you see Blizzard finally buff a unit (like BC) but say, "You know how the BC sucked before? Well, we are going to make it good again (i.e. showing it kite Stalkers). But not so fast! Because we are actually going to make it suck worse against a cheaper faster Protoss air unit." This patch feels very much like a bait and switch.
EDIT: Just a fun fact: Blizzard wants the BC to be more tactical and involved as a support unit? It can no longer 1 shot an Immortal or V-ray. 1 Shot immortals is pretty important if you're doing a 2-base push and have BC's in your composition to protect your tanks. I'll be sure to focus fire my Yamato on the ultra deadly Zealot.
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United Kingdom1153 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/lpH3cHV.png)
same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok
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Guys, Blizzard will never balance TvP around MechvP. The sooner you accept that, the more fun you will have in the game.
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On December 09 2018 06:19 SHODAN wrote:same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok
The general TvP stats aren't as bad as your win rate suggests so the best solution for you is probably to change your playstyle vs protoss. Adaptability is an important skill in sc2.
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On December 09 2018 11:44 MrWayne wrote:
Guys, Blizzard will never balance TvP around MechvP. The sooner you accept that, the more fun you will have in the game.
but this is plainly wrong. in the balance patch notes, Blizzard showcase the battlecruiser and thor fighting against protoss units:
https://starcraft2.com/en-us/news/22372713
they also write this:
"When we initially announced our balance revamp this year, we stated that we wanted to push the Thor into a “giant that slays other giants” role, but we haven’t heard much discussion regarding this new focus. In addition, with the recent Carrier damage revert and the Thor’s now lower armor, Thors are not able to fulfill this role as well as we’d like. Thus, we’ve carefully tweaked the numbers on the Thor’s anti-Massive weapon so that it will consistently defeat Carriers in one-on-one combat and be more powerful against the new fast-moving Tempests."
Blizzard have written in black and white that they want factory units to be playable vs protoss. Blizzard have also directly called for more discussion on thors vP. why are you trying to silence people providing feedback on this unit?
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On December 09 2018 12:03 MrWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2018 06:19 SHODAN wrote:same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok The general TvP stats aren't as bad as your win rate suggests so the best solution for you is probably to change your playstyle vs protoss. Adaptability is an important skill in sc2.
having fun is also an important skill. I play the way that is most intuitive and enjoyable for me. it works vZ and vT, but fun terran styles are not allowed vP. if you want this match-up to be a chore, suit yourself, but every terran player knows deep down that the protoss player is always having more fun. even when they lose, at least they can fire a couple of yolo disuptor balls and storms and peace out like a pimp. bio looks like a sad limp leg dog when it is losing to protoss. there is pretty much no chance to crawl back once you get behind. you have to play boring to win.
yeah yeah, I know people want people to balance the game around win-rate stability, but positive changes are not created this way. stability stagnates opportunity, and the only way you're gonna make the game more fun is to shake it up.
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A huge nerf to psi storm vs mechanical units would fix most late game TvP issues and barely affect other matchups but doubt they'll do it. Tempests might be a bit OP in the midgame with its current acceleration, probably need more time to determine that... but late game there is no way to trade efficiently in large scale engagements unless the protoss decides to stand on like 20 liberator zones when there are storms disruptor balls and thermal lances involved.
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Upgrade for Terran: lightning rod. Outfits mechanical units with a lightning rod allowing them to transfer some electrical damage into the ground (I don't know jack about physics).
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On December 09 2018 14:58 Doko wrote:
A huge nerf to psi storm vs mechanical units would fix most late game TvP issues and barely affect other matchups but doubt they'll do it. Tempests might be a bit OP in the midgame with its current acceleration, probably need more time to determine that... but late game there is no way to trade efficiently in large scale engagements unless the protoss decides to stand on like 20 liberator zones when there are storms disruptor balls and thermal lances involved.
I assume you are talking about psi storm vs vikings? because liberators out-range high templars by 1 (without advanced ballistix) and they can survive 2 complete psi storms!
I doubt Blizzard would consider this suggestion. it is not a very elegant solution because no other unit shares that specific damage modifier vs mechanical. if you want to go down the route of making mechanical units better vs toss, without affecting the other match-ups, it would be more consistent to change variables that are already part of the game: such as the raven's ability to reduce shield armor and the ghost's EMP.
if there is 1 unit that should have the ability to reduce shields, it's the tank. make it an upgrade called "anti-plasma cannons" or some shit. make it expensive so it doesn't upset the early-game. now terran can stand toe-to-toe with a robo deathball and use ravens to disable the tempests.
I always found the liberation zone spam vs toss deathball dance to be lame as fuck and zero fun to play (as terran). when T is boxed on 4 bases, you have to constantly unsiege and resiege the liberators. oh! oh! he's coming towards my third... WAIT, he's moving to the other entrance at my 3rd... oh fuck, now he's going to my 4th... oh shit, I gotta start that upgrade back home... *F3's to my main for a split second* oh shit, now I'm dead because my liberators were out of position :D. and if you don't instantly die like that, you bleed units over and over to disruptor balls and tempest shots. literally takes terran about 20 actions to defend against 1 action, and most good toss players perform that 1 action more than once. 200 actions to defend 10 actions... at least in WoL, you could turtle with mass viking / ghost, Byun style.
I don't mind tempests on their own terms. it's the combination of tempests, disruptors, colossus AND storms. how the fuck are you supposed to beat that with infantry and circles? it should not be a matter of hoping toss fucks up in order to win. I wonder how things would play out if the elusive bio / tank was a reality vP. Maru and TY tried it on the last patch with mixed results. their bases looked something like this: 7 raxx, 3 factories (3 tech-labs), 1 starport. macro-oriented bio / tank is actually pretty fucking strong vs protoss if you somehow manage to mass 20 tanks with +2 vehicle weapons. there is no way toss can a-move into that. it's getting there that's the hard part. I feel tanks just need a little bit stronger vP in the mid-game and something special could happen to this match-up.
I think this patch already gave macro bio / tank an indirect buff vP, afforded by 3CC + early-game cyclone defense. it is much less of an investment to defend against stargate / warp prisms, so you can get by on less units in the early game. it is not entirely necessary to make a raven to disable the warp prism and not entirely necessary to make a viking to zone out the warp prism. you can spend that money on a faster armory and faster vehicle weapons. the new maps are also really good for tanks, so I'll be interested to see if Maru / TY pursue the idea further.
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On December 09 2018 12:55 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2018 12:03 MrWayne wrote:On December 09 2018 06:19 SHODAN wrote:same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok The general TvP stats aren't as bad as your win rate suggests so the best solution for you is probably to change your playstyle vs protoss. Adaptability is an important skill in sc2. having fun is also an important skill. I play the way that is most intuitive and enjoyable for me. it works vZ and vT, but fun terran styles are not allowed vP. if you want this match-up to be a chore, suit yourself, but every terran player knows deep down that the protoss player is always having more fun. even when they lose, at least they can fire a couple of yolo disuptor balls and storms and peace out like a pimp. bio looks like a sad limp leg dog when it is losing to protoss. there is pretty much no chance to crawl back once you get behind. you have to play boring to win. yeah yeah, I know people want people to balance the game around win-rate stability, but positive changes are not created this way. stability stagnates opportunity, and the only way you're gonna make the game more fun is to shake it up.
totally agree, especially aboooot shaking things up.
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it's nice to see BCs finally getting some uses but i have yet to see any thors game from streamers and online tournament.Let take a look at immortals and broodlords.Both are slow as hell and no way for them to retreat without losing a huge amount of arny supply.There must be a reason why thors ain't a importal role like them and blizzard still can't figure out a scenario for thors' to shine where vikings is a inferior choice
heck even a reaper esp unit like banshee is a part of TvZ cyclone heavy mech now
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On December 09 2018 06:19 SHODAN wrote:same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok
If anything, this shows that mech is clearly too strong against Zerg and needs a nerf there.
Curious to hear how you would address that.
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United Kingdom1153 Posts
On December 09 2018 19:03 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2018 06:19 SHODAN wrote:same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok If anything, this shows that mech is clearly too strong against Zerg and needs a nerf there. Curious to hear how you would address that.
why don't you tell me? which unit needs nerfed? 
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On December 09 2018 19:03 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2018 06:19 SHODAN wrote:same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok If anything, this shows that mech is clearly too strong against Zerg and needs a nerf there. Curious to hear how you would address that.
this clearly shows his tvp is holding him back to move up the mmr ladder. not that mech is OP,.
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On December 09 2018 20:04 GrandSmurf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2018 19:03 Nezgar wrote:On December 09 2018 06:19 SHODAN wrote:same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok If anything, this shows that mech is clearly too strong against Zerg and needs a nerf there. Curious to hear how you would address that. this clearly shows his tvp is holding him back to move up the mmr ladder. not that mech is OP,.
Or maybe he's a one trick factory unit pony whose inability to adapt prevents him from getting gud ;o
Mech players lol
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On December 09 2018 21:00 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2018 20:04 GrandSmurf wrote:On December 09 2018 19:03 Nezgar wrote:On December 09 2018 06:19 SHODAN wrote:same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok If anything, this shows that mech is clearly too strong against Zerg and needs a nerf there. Curious to hear how you would address that. this clearly shows his tvp is holding him back to move up the mmr ladder. not that mech is OP,. Or maybe he's a one trick factory unit pony whose inability to adapt prevents him from getting gud ;o Mech players lol
I play 44055 games and my play is still trash. you post 44055 times and your posts are still trash. guess we're even huh
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On December 09 2018 12:34 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2018 11:44 MrWayne wrote:
Guys, Blizzard will never balance TvP around MechvP. The sooner you accept that, the more fun you will have in the game. but this is plainly wrong. in the balance patch notes, Blizzard showcase the battlecruiser and thor fighting against protoss units: https://starcraft2.com/en-us/news/22372713they also write this: "When we initially announced our balance revamp this year, we stated that we wanted to push the Thor into a “giant that slays other giants” role, but we haven’t heard much discussion regarding this new focus. In addition, with the recent Carrier damage revert and the Thor’s now lower armor, Thors are not able to fulfill this role as well as we’d like. Thus, we’ve carefully tweaked the numbers on the Thor’s anti-Massive weapon so that it will consistently defeat Carriers in one-on-one combat and be more powerful against the new fast-moving Tempests." Blizzard have written in black and white that they want factory units to be playable vs protoss. Blizzard have also directly called for more discussion on thors vP. why are you trying to silence people providing feedback on this unit?
None of your quotes and sources contradicts my post. It wasn't their goal to make mech more viable with the last balance patch. Whether they achieved their own goals for the Battlecruiser, Thor and Tempest or not is a different discussion.
Also what was your feedback in regards to the Thor?
"just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok"
That's not constructive feedback at all, it's wishful thinking because Blizzard will never exchange the Thor in favour of the goliath.
On December 09 2018 12:55 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2018 12:03 MrWayne wrote:On December 09 2018 06:19 SHODAN wrote:same old story vP. my w/r in the last patch was 46% after a few hundred games. just replace thors with goliaths and everything will be ok The general TvP stats aren't as bad as your win rate suggests so the best solution for you is probably to change your playstyle vs protoss. Adaptability is an important skill in sc2. having fun is also an important skill. I play the way that is most intuitive and enjoyable for me. it works vZ and vT, but fun terran styles are not allowed vP. if you want this match-up to be a chore, suit yourself, but every terran player knows deep down that the protoss player is always having more fun. even when they lose, at least they can fire a couple of yolo disuptor balls and storms and peace out like a pimp. bio looks like a sad limp leg dog when it is losing to protoss. there is pretty much no chance to crawl back once you get behind. you have to play boring to win. yeah yeah, I know people want people to balance the game around win-rate stability, but positive changes are not created this way. stability stagnates opportunity, and the only way you're gonna make the game more fun is to shake it up.
That's a lot of jealousy you have towards protoss players, I wonder if all your Zerg opponents feel the same towards you.
1 vs 1 ladder is not a WoW rpg server, sc2 is afterall still a strategy game where you have to choose the best strategy to win, in addition it's also a extremely deep game, you can choose a suboptimal strategy and still get to GM.
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On December 09 2018 23:33 MrWayne wrote:
...
why would you build thors after investing everything into a bio / air-based composition? do you think Blizzard expect us to throw down 3-4 factories 20 minutes into the game in response to tempest / carrier? with +0/+0 vehicle upgrades? maybe sprinkle in a few hellions to make it worthwhile? :D I wrote a more detailed post about goliaths and mech AA overlap in post #137
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Did Avilo just make like 20 accounts? seriously this thread is becoming a meme with mech terrans bitching about tempest of all things.
These units don't even 1shot scvs, they are total garbage vs any decent viking count
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EPT
