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Hi all, to celebrate 50 posts, today I wish to raise a topic that has had a significant impact on the state of professional Starcraft in Korea: the fall of teamhouses.
As many will be aware, in the early 2000s Starcraft Broodwar took off in South Korea in a way never before seen in the gaming world. Although many games had grown popular in the past such as Street Fighter 2 and Tekkan, Starcraft marked the first time a computer game became part of the culture of the nation. To date it is hard to pinpoint the exact reason for this - certainly we here would argue it is because the game was so fantastic, but really it was probably the culmination of a number of reasons - right time, right place, right people.
For the first time, gaming was becoming a legitimate career choice. The game went big fast - and the best players began to become household names, much like in traditional sports. When Big Korea realised that this was a new avenue to tap into the younger generation, companies quickly paired up with famous players. But to gain the most traction they needed those players to remain at the forefront of the scene. To do this, they took many tips from traditional sports: hiring a coach, building a team, and eventually funding a team house to centralise their players lives.
The teamhouse environment borne in Starcraft Broodwar is commonly regarded as the primary driver for Korean excellence in the game. Players had ample time to discuss strategies, receive coaching on their weaknesses, and practice with other teammates suitably skilled to push them further. A rank and file within the houses soon became apparent - the A Teamers with most fame and fortune would effectively be waited upon by their lesser teammates. In this environment, players could reach much higher skill levels than before.
When Starcraft 2 arrived in 2010, Broodwar was still thriving in Korea. Flash and Jaedong were battling to be known as the best player in the world, while others such as Fantasy also looked very strong. These famous players didn't immediately leave Broodwar - they had a cash cow to milk. But many lesser or younger players knew that the new game was an opportunity to start fresh - and if they followed the teamhouse teachings they could quickly reach the heights of the world. IMMVP, MC, Nestea - all nobodies in Broodwar quickly rose to stardom in the new era.
When the Kespa teams finally moved into Starcraft 2 in 2012, many predicted that they would come with a bang and quickly redesign the meta. Truth be told, many players weren't able to reach the same peaks - even Flash, the undisputed best player on Earth struggled to adapt quickly. Nevertheless, by 2013 he was the champion of Proleague and he, as did many other players, far outstripped foreign Starcraft players who had a 2 year headstart. It began the era of Korea's greatest dominance in Starcraft 2, and many would agree that until 2016 the gap between foreigners and Koreans was at its greatest point.
Then came the fall.
Hot on the matchfixing scandals plaguing Prime and top players such as Life, and coupled with new games such as League of Legends taking over Starcrafts spotlight in Korea, the big Korean companies began to realise that their money would be better spent elsewhere. Make no mistake - continued matchfixing controversies were a significant factor in the fall of the teamhouses. Only one Kespa team remained: Jin-Air Greenwings.
Jin-Air at the time had probably the third strongest lineup. Their Maru-sOs-Rogue Trinity was certainly one of the most formidable lineups, with plucky Cure and Trap also providing wins in proleague. But these players had not shown the individual league prowess of players from KT-Rolster or SKTelecom T1. The team certainly played beyond expectations in proleague however.
Suddenly they were not the 3rd-string team in Korea: they were the ONLY team in Korea.
Many wondered why Jin Air didn't leave like all of the other teams. But in hindsight we can see the brilliance of their strategy - their players now had an extreme advantage over the rest of the scene.
2017 rolled around and Koreans began to realise that the once great gap between Foreigners and Koreans was beginning to close. New talents were rising: where Korea had previously won every premier tournament from 2012 to 2016, suddenly Scarlett* and others were winning tournaments. Then came the biggest shaming of all: Neeb taking a KESPA CUP* on home turf.
But while the rest of the scene fell, Jin Air players had been hiding their time to become the face of Korean Starcraft 2. By the second half of 2017, Rogue put his hand up as the first to hit his straps - and showed one of the highest peak levels of Starcraft 2 play ever seen. But we didn't know then that it was in fact his teammate Maru who would take 2018 by storm.
Everything had aligned perfectly.
Maru had years of experience - playing since 2010 at the age of 12 - but was still a young player at the peak of physical abilities. He had tasted victory before, and wouldn't fall to the same finals curse that plagued players like soO and Dark.
His team nurtured him. With his meals provided to him, his teammates prepared to strategise and help practice, and a coach who could refine his play in all areas, Maru now had the tools that none other in the league had available.
3 GSLs was outstanding, and he now stands equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world. But one must ask, how much of Maru's success can be attributed to these circumstances? We're it not for the fall of teamhouses, would he still be head and shoulders above the pack, or just another faceless Terran?
And most importantly, would we still be arguing who the best player in the world is, if Jin Air had decided to close its doors in 2016 as well?
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equalled only by Serral
no
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The teamhouse advantage is not the only advantage Maru has. He's also the youngest player in the korean scene which gives him a significant advantage because most koreans are already hitting an age where their mechanics evaporate.
Considering the other Jin Air players don't really perform that well except Rogue for a short period I'd argue the age advantage is even the bigger factor for his dominance.
Not to take away from his achievements, apparently he's also practicing harder than before but I don't think he'd be able to dominate like this in 2013-2015.
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On September 23 2018 23:13 Charoisaur wrote:no - The teamhouse advantage is not the only advantage Maru has. He's also the youngest player in the korean scene which gives him a significant advantage because most koreans are already hitting an age where their mechanics evaporate. Considering the other Jin Air players don't really perform that well except Rogue for a short period I'd argue the age advantage is even the bigger factor for his dominance. Not to take away from his achievements, apparently he's also practicing harder than before but I don't think he'd be able to dominate like this in 2013-2015.
Definitely age is in his favour, truly perhaps now the stage is set for a new era of young guns like Reynor, Maru, Serral etc.
Respectfully disagree re Maru and rogue being only ones currently performing better than expected from JAGW though.
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This is and only can be purely speculative, we don't even know how the jinair teamhouse operates these days when there is no teamleague anymore. In theory it should be an advantage to still live with progamers together in a house and have the possibility of coaching though, sure. I question the impact it really has though, it's not like the whole team performs better than the rest of the field.
It is certainly true that teams disbanding and thus players retiring had a negative impact on the korean scene, less talent and thus less possible competition. We mostly have the top players still playing though, the players who had peaks before and showed they could be champions in the kespa era, so i wouldn't look at it too negatively. If anything the lack of new blood is something one should be concerned with, but that was also the case during the kespa time.
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On September 24 2018 00:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
This is and only can be purely speculative, we don't even know how the jinair teamhouse operates these days when there is no teamleague anymore. In theory it should be an advantage to still live with progamers together in a house and have the possibility of coaching though, sure. I question the impact it really has though, it's not like the whole team performs better than the rest of the field.
It is certainly true that teams disbanding and thus players retiring had a negative impact on the korean scene, less talent and thus less possible competition. We mostly have the top players still playing though, the players who had peaks before and showed they could be champions in the kespa era, so i wouldn't look at it too negatively. If anything the lack of new blood is something one should be concerned with, but that was also the case during the kespa time.
It's an interesting point you raise, but we speculate on many things in Starcraft 2. What if Life was still playing? What if Flash had switched in 2010? What if MVPs wrists didn't give out?
All I'm saying is that the cards have all fallen in Maru's favour, which isn't to say he isn't playing great, but it's not really fair for the community to discard all of Serrals achievements while not acknowledging these aspects of Maru's.
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Good that you finally admitted this thread isn't about teamhouses, but about your Serral vs Maru crusade
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Good read!
On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
2017 rolled around and Koreans began to realise that the once great gap between Foreigners and Koreans was beginning to close. New talents were rising: where Korea had previously won every premier tournament from 2012 to 2016, suddenly Scarlett, Sen and others were winning tournaments. Then came the biggest shaming of all: Neeb taking a GSL vs the World on home turf.
Sen won his only Premier in 2014 and it was a KeSPA Cup that Neeb won.
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One has just to take into consideration that Maru's first peak was achieved under the possibly worst circumstances in the prime teamhouse. While living in JAGW-teamhouse definitely helped Maru in getting so dominant, I doubt that he would be lacking behind if he was on his own.
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I appreciate the article, solid effort on journalism. But be careful, when you confuse facts (such as Sen winning tournaments in 2017 or Neeb winning GSL vs The World) you discredit yourself and your work almost irrecoverably.
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On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral.
If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral.
Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players?
If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks).
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Well there are a lot of stuff we don't know here, do you know the teamhouse is cooking Marus meals and preparing his strategies? Feels like you are pushing extreme speculation as facts. Also, you know of the foreigner teamhouse right? Teamhouse can surely help but there is so much more to take into consideration, how does the teamhouse operate and so on. Lastly Serral can't hold a candle to Maru when comparing achivements this year and personally I don't believe he can win a series either but hopefully we will see come Blizzcon.
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I doubt it really has much of an impact (at least in the way you try to portray it). Maru is just Maru. Stats, TY, Serral and many others are not living in teamhouses and still perform pretty well. If you take a look at a WCS rankings, there are only two players from JinAir there. I'd say that since Kespa abondoned SC2, things didn't change much in korea in terms of JinAir performance in comparison to teamless players. They all stayed on their levels, more or less. But foreigners capitalized on that and catched up significantly.
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On September 25 2018 17:29 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I appreciate the article, solid effort on journalism. But be careful, when you confuse facts (such as Sen winning tournaments in 2017 or Neeb winning GSL vs The World) you discredit yourself and your work almost irrecoverably.
Thanks I am still learning but I appreciate your support and corrections.
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On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks).
Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now.
Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture.
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Hello, that's a lot of asumptions 
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On September 25 2018 19:45 Shuffleblade wrote:
Well there are a lot of stuff we don't know here, do you know the teamhouse is cooking Marus meals and preparing his strategies? Feels like you are pushing extreme speculation as facts. Also,
Yes this is common knowledge about team house environment, large meals are prepared to ensure all players have minimal downtime. Also many are unable to cook themselves.
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On September 25 2018 14:35 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2018 00:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
This is and only can be purely speculative, we don't even know how the jinair teamhouse operates these days when there is no teamleague anymore. In theory it should be an advantage to still live with progamers together in a house and have the possibility of coaching though, sure. I question the impact it really has though, it's not like the whole team performs better than the rest of the field.
It is certainly true that teams disbanding and thus players retiring had a negative impact on the korean scene, less talent and thus less possible competition. We mostly have the top players still playing though, the players who had peaks before and showed they could be champions in the kespa era, so i wouldn't look at it too negatively. If anything the lack of new blood is something one should be concerned with, but that was also the case during the kespa time.
It's an interesting point you raise, but we speculate on many things in Starcraft 2. What if Life was still playing? What if Flash had switched in 2010? What if MVPs wrists didn't give out? All I'm saying is that the cards have all fallen in Maru's favour, which isn't to say he isn't playing great, but it's not really fair for the community to discard all of Serrals achievements while not acknowledging these aspects of Maru's.
The problem with speculation is that it tries to predict things which cannot be proven (unless we find a way to look into these other universes where it went the path we speculated on :>)
I agree that in theory it should be an advantage for maru, i just question how big the impact really is these day.
I also tend to think that looking at people's "advantage" doesn't do a lot, it might be true or it might not be that it has a big impact, the world isn't totally fair and everyone has different starting siutations to achieve a certain goal. Serral achieved his without a teamhouse but region lock, living at his parent's house where he also doesn't have to cook and care for anything but playing sc2. Other foreigners don't have that advantage. I don't see you complain about that  (and you shouldn't)
With that being said, i also don't see too many people "discard all of serral's achievements" , you mainly get in arguments with people who think that maru's top serral's, that's not the same 
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On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture.
When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had.
-Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it.
-That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive.
- The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation.
Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else.
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On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else.
Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house.
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Ignoring the fact that this is just more of Dave4's Serral propaganda, it's actually an interesting topic.
The fact that all the other Jin Air players (other than maybe Rogue) have fallen off would indicate that teamhouses are not as important as once thought. Or at least, it depends on the player.
Zest said he lost a lot of discipline after KT disbanded (and it showed). soO however said that being in a teamhouse made in complacent, and his sudden return of form in 2017 was seemingly because of SKT's closure. INno also proved that you can live in a teamhouse and still waste your time playing other games instead of practicing hard.
As for Maru, he was in the same house for all of last year, yet was nowhere near as good as he is now. According to him, it's because he started practicing hard after Rogue's blizzcon win. Actual dedication is what matters. For some players, teamhouses help bring that. I would say it's more important for new/up and coming players than veterans though.
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On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house.
Inno, Stats and TY all had massive success after their teams disbanded. It's not just Jin Air players.
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On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house.
Everything you say here is very debatable.
Maru and Rogue aren't the only players to have great runs post kespa. INno, Stats, TY, and Dark have been insane and arguably much more consistant.
The skill gap between koreans and foreigners has reduced sure. But is this just because of kespa leaving? Or is it because foreigners objectively have a better time now than back then anyway? More of them have gone full time and have motivation to play which wasn't there before.
"JAGW players have remained unimpacted" You really think that?? Cure, Creator, and sOs have clearly fallen off, they aren't that competitive even in korea anymore. Trap gets the same results he always has. Only Rogue and Maru have shown any improvement.
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On September 26 2018 01:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house. Inno, Stats and TY all had massive success after their teams disbanded. It's not just Jin Air players.
I would argue both Inno and Stats, overall, had their peaks in the team house era. In any case, there is a decay factor, it's not an overnight shift but over time the team house vs non teamhouse gap has widened particularly since end-2017. TY I agree looks very good at the moment but I would say there is also always going to be someone who bucks the trend and it's also been widely agreed that he has never really 'lived up to his potential' previously - he could just be finally finding his straps and happens to have come at this time.
Creator and Cure have long lost their skill levels prior to this and sOs is known to be a highly variable player, with big peaks and big lows. He could well turn around and win ST2 and then BlizzCon.
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On September 26 2018 01:57 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 01:25 Charoisaur wrote:On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house. Inno, Stats and TY all had massive success after their teams disbanded. It's not just Jin Air players. I would argue both Inno and Stats, overall, had their peaks in the team house era. In any case, there is a decay factor, it's not an overnight shift but over time the team house vs non teamhouse gap has widened particularly since end-2017. TY I agree looks very good at the moment but I would say there is also always going to be someone who bucks the trend and it's also been widely agreed that he has never really 'lived up to his potential' previously - he could just be finally finding his straps and happens to have come at this time. Creator and Cure have long lost their skill levels prior to this and sOs is known to be a highly variable player, with big peaks and big lows. He could well turn around and win ST2 and then BlizzCon.
Stats definitely didn't have his peak in the teamhouse era, just look at his results page on liquipedia.
Innovation had a really good 2017 and a bad 2018. In the teamhouse era his 2016 was poor and the results before were spread out a lot. One could make the case that 2017 was his best year.
Particularly since the end of 2017? That would be only maru then, because rogue's 2018 was rather mediocre overall with only one tournament win and ro8 as the best result otherwise.
I don't want to completely deny that there is an advantage, at least theoretically, but you have very little basis of solid reasoning to back up your claims tbh.
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I think it's great for the players that teamhouses don't exist. Their skill might decay, but at least they have a chance of some rl possibilities. Even if you are a proplayer, it's not healthy to live in those bunkbed chambers and play 12-16 hours a day.
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On September 26 2018 01:57 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 01:25 Charoisaur wrote:On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house. Inno, Stats and TY all had massive success after their teams disbanded. It's not just Jin Air players. I would argue both Inno and Stats, overall, had their peaks in the team house era. In any case, there is a decay factor, it's not an overnight shift but over time the team house vs non teamhouse gap has widened particularly since end-2017. TY I agree looks very good at the moment but I would say there is also always going to be someone who bucks the trend and it's also been widely agreed that he has never really 'lived up to his potential' previously - he could just be finally finding his straps and happens to have come at this time. Creator and Cure have long lost their skill levels prior to this and sOs is known to be a highly variable player, with big peaks and big lows. He could well turn around and win ST2 and then BlizzCon.
It just feels like you are trying to angle every single thing to support your opinion.
TY is really good now, and you say he hasn't lived up to his potential previously. Based on what you've argued before if TY was ever going to peak it would be during the teamhouse era when he had all those super important super good perks of teamhouses.
None of your arguements make any sense but you keep twisting the facts so hard to support them that you end arguing against your own previous statements.
No a teamhouse is not what motivated, disciplined and made Maru as good as he is now. TY is awesome now, even more awesome than when was in a teamhouse. The same can be said for Stats and arguably Inno. Don't forget ByuN either, teamhouses is not everything.
Having the foreigner teamhouse is korea hasn't turned any of those foreigner into beasts able to take down Serral either.
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You say this but all I see is Jin Air players winning every match...
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On September 28 2018 23:49 Dave4 wrote:
You say this but all I see is Jin Air players winning every match...
Yeah this statement isn't dishonest at all
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On September 26 2018 01:57 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 01:25 Charoisaur wrote:On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house. Inno, Stats and TY all had massive success after their teams disbanded. It's not just Jin Air players. I would argue both Inno and Stats, overall, had their peaks in the team house era. In any case, there is a decay factor, it's not an overnight shift but over time the team house vs non teamhouse gap has widened particularly since end-2017. TY I agree looks very good at the moment but I would say there is also always going to be someone who bucks the trend and it's also been widely agreed that he has never really 'lived up to his potential' previously - he could just be finally finding his straps and happens to have come at this time. Creator and Cure have long lost their skill levels prior to this and sOs is known to be a highly variable player, with big peaks and big lows. He could well turn around and win ST2 and then BlizzCon.
Man you must feel stupid
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On September 28 2018 23:49 Dave4 wrote:
You say this but all I see is Jin Air players winning every match...
Trap lost and Cure didn't even qualify
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On September 26 2018 03:19 Beyond Magic wrote:
I think it's great for the players that teamhouses don't exist. Their skill might decay, but at least they have a chance of some rl possibilities. Even if you are a proplayer, it's not healthy to live in those bunkbed chambers and play 12-16 hours a day.
I couldn't agree more. The living conditions in a lot of the places was less than ideal for any grown person. Yes you didn't have to worry about cooking your meals and you'd have a bed, but it was a bunk bed in a room with 8 other people. Then playing in front of a computer that many hours isn't good for a person physically and mentally.
I would argue that since the game has changed a lot its more beneficial now for players to live on their own where they can make their own schedules and know when they need to take a small break. Plus anyone that is part of a team is still doing the same routines they would have in a team house. Just using resources like Skype and Discord.
They're still evaluating each others replays, still doing in team practice, still laddering.
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On September 29 2018 00:02 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 01:57 Dave4 wrote:On September 26 2018 01:25 Charoisaur wrote:On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house. Inno, Stats and TY all had massive success after their teams disbanded. It's not just Jin Air players. I would argue both Inno and Stats, overall, had their peaks in the team house era. In any case, there is a decay factor, it's not an overnight shift but over time the team house vs non teamhouse gap has widened particularly since end-2017. TY I agree looks very good at the moment but I would say there is also always going to be someone who bucks the trend and it's also been widely agreed that he has never really 'lived up to his potential' previously - he could just be finally finding his straps and happens to have come at this time. Creator and Cure have long lost their skill levels prior to this and sOs is known to be a highly variable player, with big peaks and big lows. He could well turn around and win ST2 and then BlizzCon. Man you must feel stupid
Hello, no I feel validated as Creator - largely considered one of the worst on JinAir - just beat TY, largely considered best non-teamhouse Terran.
As I have mentioned, the teamhouse environment in JAGW gives a large advantage over time to these players and the gap seems to be growing greater over time.
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On September 29 2018 00:09 Pong0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 03:19 Beyond Magic wrote:
I think it's great for the players that teamhouses don't exist. Their skill might decay, but at least they have a chance of some rl possibilities. Even if you are a proplayer, it's not healthy to live in those bunkbed chambers and play 12-16 hours a day.
I couldn't agree more. The living conditions in a lot of the places was less than ideal for any grown person. Yes you didn't have to worry about cooking your meals and you'd have a bed, but it was a bunk bed in a room with 8 other people. Then playing in front of a computer that many hours isn't good for a person physically and mentally. I would argue that since the game has changed a lot its more beneficial now for players to live on their own where they can make their own schedules and know when they need to take a small break. Plus anyone that is part of a team is still doing the same routines they would have in a team house. Just using resources like Skype and Discord. They're still evaluating each others replays, still doing in team practice, still laddering.
I strongly agree their well-being as a human is better out of a team house but as your friend has said it is at a cost to skill.
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On September 29 2018 00:09 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 00:02 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:On September 26 2018 01:57 Dave4 wrote:On September 26 2018 01:25 Charoisaur wrote:On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house. Inno, Stats and TY all had massive success after their teams disbanded. It's not just Jin Air players. I would argue both Inno and Stats, overall, had their peaks in the team house era. In any case, there is a decay factor, it's not an overnight shift but over time the team house vs non teamhouse gap has widened particularly since end-2017. TY I agree looks very good at the moment but I would say there is also always going to be someone who bucks the trend and it's also been widely agreed that he has never really 'lived up to his potential' previously - he could just be finally finding his straps and happens to have come at this time. Creator and Cure have long lost their skill levels prior to this and sOs is known to be a highly variable player, with big peaks and big lows. He could well turn around and win ST2 and then BlizzCon. Man you must feel stupid Hello, no I feel validated as Creator - largely considered one of the worst on JinAir - just beat TY, largely considered best non-teamhouse Terran. As I have mentioned, the teamhouse environment in JAGW gives a large advantage over time to these players and the gap seems to be growing greater over time.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/k3WDn5V.jpg)
As you can clearly see this is the best result of creator by far in a very long time. It is a single bo5 which makes you say these things.
Let's look at cure, sOs, trap and rogue as well shall we? (without pictures, you can look that up yourself )
sOs made one finals this year in a tournament where he didn't have to play a single korean player, one ro8 in gsl and now at least a ro8 in super tournament 2.
Rogue won katowice, other than that his best results are 2 ro8s in gsl.
Cure qualified for 2 gsls and was third in both ro32 groups, not advancing further.
Trap made ro16 in all gsls and one ro8 at katowice.
So let's look at these results and how you interprete these:
On September 28 2018 23:49 Dave4 wrote:
You say this but all I see is Jin Air players winning every match...
You are either trolling or didn't look at the results.
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On September 29 2018 00:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 00:09 Dave4 wrote:On September 29 2018 00:02 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:On September 26 2018 01:57 Dave4 wrote:On September 26 2018 01:25 Charoisaur wrote:On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:On September 23 2018 22:40 Dave4 wrote:
... equalled only by Serral left in the Starcraft world.
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral. If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral. Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players? If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house. Inno, Stats and TY all had massive success after their teams disbanded. It's not just Jin Air players. I would argue both Inno and Stats, overall, had their peaks in the team house era. In any case, there is a decay factor, it's not an overnight shift but over time the team house vs non teamhouse gap has widened particularly since end-2017. TY I agree looks very good at the moment but I would say there is also always going to be someone who bucks the trend and it's also been widely agreed that he has never really 'lived up to his potential' previously - he could just be finally finding his straps and happens to have come at this time. Creator and Cure have long lost their skill levels prior to this and sOs is known to be a highly variable player, with big peaks and big lows. He could well turn around and win ST2 and then BlizzCon. Man you must feel stupid Hello, no I feel validated as Creator - largely considered one of the worst on JinAir - just beat TY, largely considered best non-teamhouse Terran. As I have mentioned, the teamhouse environment in JAGW gives a large advantage over time to these players and the gap seems to be growing greater over time. As you can clearly see this is the best result of creator by far in a very long time. It is a single bo5 which makes you say these things. Let's look at cure, sOs, trap and rogue as well shall we? (without pictures, you can look that up yourself ) sOs made one finals this year in a tournament where he didn't have to play a single korean player, one ro8 in gsl and now at least a ro8 in super tournament 2. Rogue won katowice, other than that his best results are 2 ro8s in gsl. Cure qualified for 2 gsls and was third in both ro32 groups, not advancing further. Trap made ro16 in all gsls and one ro8 at katowice. So let's look at these results and how you interprete these: Show nested quote +On September 28 2018 23:49 Dave4 wrote:
You say this but all I see is Jin Air players winning every match... You are either trolling or didn't look at the results.
I think if you look collectively at the JAGW players vs any the players from any other ex-proleague team in the last 18 months you will see how big the gap is.
SKT is probably the strongest lineup. Innovation, soO, Dark, Classic - all have had very poor results when compared with top 4 from JAGW (Maru, sHy, Rogue, Trap).
KT - TY, Stats, Zest, Leenock - again, results have all fallen compared to JAGW who have basically won everything in the last 18 months. Other ex teams wouldn't even be close.
As I have said, the JAGW housemates collectively have the environmental advantage of meals preparation, teammates, coach, love and support to help them overcome the big games. Results back this up. But I see others do not agree with this view which is fine but I think we will continue to see JAGW victories because of these factors.
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On September 29 2018 01:05 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 00:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 29 2018 00:09 Dave4 wrote:On September 29 2018 00:02 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:On September 26 2018 01:57 Dave4 wrote:On September 26 2018 01:25 Charoisaur wrote:On September 26 2018 01:20 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 23:38 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 25 2018 21:37 Dave4 wrote:On September 25 2018 19:32 TrashPanda wrote:
[quote]
I would love to know how you come to that conlusion. Serral has shown dominance in the foreign scene, but has not shown anything of significance in the non region locked scene. Granted, he won a premier tournament with koreans involved, but so did others like Scarlett for example and I don't see you elevating her to the same heights as Serral.
If you compare Serral and Maru directly, both in their matches against each other (Only one bo3+ so far, WESG 2017, 3-0 for Maru involving Nukes, BCs and a 24 minute Bio switch) and in their tournaments won (OSL, SSL, WESG, 3x GSL Code S vs. GSL vs the World, 4x WCS) Maru completely outclasses Serral.
Back to the real topic: Do teamhouses grant significant advantages to players?
If they do, then where are the dominating performances from the likes of sOs, Trap, even Rogue? all of their 2018s have looked rather unspectacular apart from Rogues IEM World Championship. As Maru and Rogue have stated, the reason that Maru now is the force he is, is that Rogues Blizzcon win motivated him to start practicing seriously resulting in him being able to play like this. We also see with the Super Tournaments and GSL vs the world what happens when Maru doesn't take the event serious (I don't think Maru will be anywhere close to winning ST2, especially given how his side of the bracket looks). Hello, in fact without the teamhouse coaching Maru's drive to succeed would not have been as great - he required the love, support and meals creation of his allow him to focus solely on his objectives, and discipline him where he faltered. That 'young brat' personality required the direction that could only be offered by a coach and it is part of how he has become so successful now. Maru will do well in ST2 because of this , he would not be allowed to slack off at such an important juncture. When you phrase such wild speculation and subjective opinions as facts you lose any credibility you previously had. -Maru would not have been as great without teamhouse is a fact? Prove it. -That the jin air greenwings teamhouse gave love, homemade food and disciple. Prove it, also prove that it actually helped in his improvement, the above situation could actually have limited him. Maybe he would be even greater today if a teamhouse didn't limit is own personal drive. - The "young brat" personalities actually normally don't flourish in the above mentioned environments at all, they commonly rebel and need freedom. My opinion as written here is just as valid as your opinion you wrote above, they are both speculation. Actually Maru himself said that he got this good because Rogues win at Blizzcon motivated him to train harder, obviously his own motivation was not something that a coach or a teamhouse controlled but rather something that came from himself. That is my opinion, what you write is your opinion but you'd do well to remember that your guesses are just guesses nothing else. Hello, as you can see in the thread we are discussing that this is speculation only but it is a fact that the two biggest peaking Korean players since the fall of the team houses has been Rogue and then Maru, both left from the only team house in Korea. In fact the skill gap between foreigners and other Koreans has reduced significantly since the fall of the team houses, and only JAGW players have remained unimpacted. They maintain the love,food, coaching and support from the house. Inno, Stats and TY all had massive success after their teams disbanded. It's not just Jin Air players. I would argue both Inno and Stats, overall, had their peaks in the team house era. In any case, there is a decay factor, it's not an overnight shift but over time the team house vs non teamhouse gap has widened particularly since end-2017. TY I agree looks very good at the moment but I would say there is also always going to be someone who bucks the trend and it's also been widely agreed that he has never really 'lived up to his potential' previously - he could just be finally finding his straps and happens to have come at this time. Creator and Cure have long lost their skill levels prior to this and sOs is known to be a highly variable player, with big peaks and big lows. He could well turn around and win ST2 and then BlizzCon. Man you must feel stupid Hello, no I feel validated as Creator - largely considered one of the worst on JinAir - just beat TY, largely considered best non-teamhouse Terran. As I have mentioned, the teamhouse environment in JAGW gives a large advantage over time to these players and the gap seems to be growing greater over time. As you can clearly see this is the best result of creator by far in a very long time. It is a single bo5 which makes you say these things. Let's look at cure, sOs, trap and rogue as well shall we? (without pictures, you can look that up yourself ) sOs made one finals this year in a tournament where he didn't have to play a single korean player, one ro8 in gsl and now at least a ro8 in super tournament 2. Rogue won katowice, other than that his best results are 2 ro8s in gsl. Cure qualified for 2 gsls and was third in both ro32 groups, not advancing further. Trap made ro16 in all gsls and one ro8 at katowice. So let's look at these results and how you interprete these: On September 28 2018 23:49 Dave4 wrote:
You say this but all I see is Jin Air players winning every match... You are either trolling or didn't look at the results. I think if you look collectively at the JAGW players vs any the players from any other ex-proleague team in the last 18 months you will see how big the gap is. SKT is probably the strongest lineup. Innovation, soO, Dark, Classic - all have had very poor results when compared with top 4 from JAGW (Maru, sHy, Rogue, Trap). KT - TY, Stats, Zest, Leenock - again, results have all fallen compared to JAGW who have basically won everything in the last 18 months. Other ex teams wouldn't even be close. As I have said, the JAGW housemates collectively have the environmental advantage of meals preparation, teammates, coach, love and support to help them overcome the big games. Results back this up. But I see others do not agree with this view which is fine but I think we will continue to see JAGW victories because of these factors.
I don't know what you're talking about regarding JAGW victories, but you can check the first place and second place of every tournament on the link below.
 Premier Tournaments
I don't see any JAGW players beside Rogue and Maru on the said list. I think you are blinded by your biases regarding the teamhouse. Correct me if I'm wrong but TaeJa dominated and he's not living on a teamhouse. (he preferred to practice alone)
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And i just showed you that if you exclude maru your whole narrative doesn't hold up.
If we look at this year it is really clear.
Let's look at KT, sure. (which wouldn't even be a good point btw, if anything we have to look at jinair vs all the other players who don't live in a teamhouse).
Stats won super tournament 1, got 2nd in a gsl and gsl vs the world, another ro8 in gsl and at least a ro8 in super tournament 2.
TY has a 2nd place and a ro4 in gsl and one ro8 at katowice.
Zest has a 2nd place, a ro4 and a ro8 in gsl + a ro8 at katowice.
So if we compare that with everyone but maru they did better than jinair.
Let's look at SKT as well if you want.
Dark has a ro4 in gsl and gsl vs the world, 2nd place at wesg and super tournament 1 and at least a ro8 in super tournament 2
Classic has a ro4 in gsl and super tournament 1, 2nd place at katowice, 4th at wesg, ro8 at gsl vs the world, ro8 at gsl and at least ro8 at super tournament 2
So both players did arguably better or around the same as the top jinair players other than maru.
Your whole narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Pls look at the actual results and tell me with a straight face that jinair players did better than other top players this year. Outside of maru they did not, they did worse.
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On September 29 2018 01:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:
And i just showed you that if you exclude maru your whole narrative doesn't hold up.
If we look at this year it is really clear.
Let's look at KT, sure. (which wouldn't even be a good point btw, if anything we have to look at jinair vs all the other players who don't live in a teamhouse).
Stats won super tournament 1, got 2nd in a gsl and gsl vs the world, another ro8 in gsl and at least a ro8 in super tournament 2.
TY has a 2nd place and a ro4 in gsl and one ro8 at katowice.
Zest has a 2nd place, a ro4 and a ro8 in gsl + a ro8 at katowice.
So if we compare that with everyone but maru they did better than jinair.
Let's look at SKT as well if you want.
Dark has a ro4 in gsl and gsl vs the world, 2nd place at wesg and super tournament 1 and at least a ro8 in super tournament 2
Classic has a ro4 in gsl and super tournament 1, 2nd place at katowice, 4th at wesg, ro8 at gsl vs the world, ro8 at gsl and at least ro8 at super tournament 2
So both players did arguably better or around the same as the top jinair players other than maru.
Your whole narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Pls look at the actual results and tell me with a straight face that jinair players did better than other top players this year. Outside of maru they did not, they did worse.
Lol this whole article was about Maru U cannot just exclude him. And U can't compare them against every single other players that is a biased statistical comparison. Also I have been saying the last 18 months. You are cherry picking results to make an argument, which is fine, but i am smart enough to realise this is what you're doing so it's not going to change my mind.
Maru is a better 1-punch over 18 months than any other ex-house
Maru/Rogue is a better 1-2 punch than any other
Maru/Rogue/Shy is a better 1-2-3
Etc.
Anywho I am traveling Amalfi coast at the moment so is hard for me to reply but thanks to you for the discussion. Warm regards, Dave4.
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On September 29 2018 01:29 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 01:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:
And i just showed you that if you exclude maru your whole narrative doesn't hold up.
If we look at this year it is really clear.
Let's look at KT, sure. (which wouldn't even be a good point btw, if anything we have to look at jinair vs all the other players who don't live in a teamhouse).
Stats won super tournament 1, got 2nd in a gsl and gsl vs the world, another ro8 in gsl and at least a ro8 in super tournament 2.
TY has a 2nd place and a ro4 in gsl and one ro8 at katowice.
Zest has a 2nd place, a ro4 and a ro8 in gsl + a ro8 at katowice.
So if we compare that with everyone but maru they did better than jinair.
Let's look at SKT as well if you want.
Dark has a ro4 in gsl and gsl vs the world, 2nd place at wesg and super tournament 1 and at least a ro8 in super tournament 2
Classic has a ro4 in gsl and super tournament 1, 2nd place at katowice, 4th at wesg, ro8 at gsl vs the world, ro8 at gsl and at least ro8 at super tournament 2
So both players did arguably better or around the same as the top jinair players other than maru.
Your whole narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Pls look at the actual results and tell me with a straight face that jinair players did better than other top players this year. Outside of maru they did not, they did worse. Lol this whole article was about Maru U cannot just exclude him. And U can't compare them against every single other players that is a biased statistical comparison. Also I have been saying the last 18 months. You are cherry picking results to make an argument, which is fine, but i am smart enough to realise this is what you're doing so it's not going to change my mind. Maru is a better 1-punch over 18 months than any other ex-house Maru/Rogue is a better 1-2 punch than any other Maru/Rogue/Shy is a better 1-2-3 Etc. Anywho I am traveling Amalfi coast at the moment so is hard for me to reply but thanks to you for the discussion. Warm regards, Dave4.
Yes if we include maru, the best year any player ever had, then jinair as a whole did better.
Your claim is that the teamhouse environment makes them better as a whole than players who are not experiencing that "advantage" right now. You even bumped this thread because creator won a match today, outside of this match he basically has no results at all over the past year.
You cherrypick 18 months because you want to include rogue's last year, his current one isn't that great while maru's last year wasn't that great. Also if we include last year as well SKT players get a huge bump and your claim wouldn't be true still
I showed you that if we look at the most recent results, this year, jinair players as a whole didn't perform better, maru did.
You want to extrapolate one player dominating to everyone doing "better" when that isn't the case.
Have a nice trip though
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 29 2018 01:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:
And i just showed you that if you exclude maru your whole narrative doesn't hold up.
If we look at this year it is really clear.
Let's look at KT, sure. (which wouldn't even be a good point btw, if anything we have to look at jinair vs all the other players who don't live in a teamhouse).
Stats won super tournament 1, got 2nd in a gsl and gsl vs the world, another ro8 in gsl and at least a ro8 in super tournament 2.
TY has a 2nd place and a ro4 in gsl and one ro8 at katowice.
Zest has a 2nd place, a ro4 and a ro8 in gsl + a ro8 at katowice.
So if we compare that with everyone but maru they did better than jinair.
Let's look at SKT as well if you want.
Dark has a ro4 in gsl and gsl vs the world, 2nd place at wesg and super tournament 1 and at least a ro8 in super tournament 2
Classic has a ro4 in gsl and super tournament 1, 2nd place at katowice, 4th at wesg, ro8 at gsl vs the world, ro8 at gsl and at least ro8 at super tournament 2
So both players did arguably better or around the same as the top jinair players other than maru.
Your whole narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Pls look at the actual results and tell me with a straight face that jinair players did better than other top players this year. Outside of maru they did not, they did worse.
Not exactly true. First of all, JAGW players have a sad history if teamkills,
RogueMaru v sOs RO8 S1, 5 Code S players, 3 of them RO16
Rogue v Maru S2 S2, epic RO8(kinda surprising considering RO8 Rogue), 5 players in Code S, 4 of them RO16
Not a team kill, what a surprise, but 2 players in ro8, 5 ro32, 4 ro16
ST#1, 3 qualified, 1 won, not good, but on the other hand the question is where lies the priorities(we don;'t know this)
ST#2, 5 qualified, 2 teamkills(Maru v Rogue, Maru v sOs), 3 players in RO8
+ WESG, where Maru won
Of course, not as dominant as some are trying to make it look, but you can't deny the fact that half the time it's a teamkill that stops other JAGW players. Rogue looked really sexy in that RO8 and while I believe he would have bombed against anyone else, you cannot deny the fact it was the best series anyone had against Maru in that play offs.
JAGW have good results. Not the best they could have, but we may ask - is there a motivation? sOs in some interview said he lost pation at some time... all their top players have won several big titles, huge money, so maybe it's a question of motivation.
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Teamkills happen for other ex teams as well, i am too lazy to do the analysis over all the tournaments in the last 2 years to see if jinair actually has more than others, if you are motivated enough you can post your findings though
Other than that there isn't really anything worthwhile to discuss here, the point of this thread is implying that the teamhouse environment is a big factor in maru's success, theoretically that could be true but if we look at the other players in jinair they didn't perform better comparatively even though dave4 claims they did.
I mean for this year you really just have to look at the wcs standings as well.
Total Jinair points (6 players): 28975 points where half of them are maru
Total exSKT points (5 players): 19675
Total exKT: (6 players with jjakji retiring) : 22500 , 22300 without jjakji
If we would remove the best of each team they would all fall to about the same points. So yes, maru dominates but that's about it.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 29 2018 02:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Teamkills happen for other ex teams as well, i am too lazy to do the analysis over all the tournaments in the last 2 years to see if jinair actually has more than others, if you are motivated enough you can post your findings though Other than that there isn't really anything worthwhile to discuss here, the point of this thread is implying that the teamhouse environment is a big factor in maru's success, theoretically that could be true but if we look at the other players in jinair they didn't perform better comparatively even though dave4 claims they did. I mean for this year you really just have to look at the wcs standings as well. Total Jinair points (6 players): 28975 points where half of them are maru Total exSKT points (5 players): 19675 Total exKT: (6 players with jjakji retiring) : 22500 , 22300 without jjakji If we would remove the best of each team they would all fall to about the same points. So yes, maru dominates but that's about it.
well, the point is, that there's NO SKT and NO KT. Thus JAGW is the best team and it is dominant even if it's just Maru and teamkills.
DOn't be in the past. And KT/SKT would be more dominant, that's for sure, but at the same time KT/SKT were more dominant than JAGW even before, so, uh, surprise? oO
Edit>
And I am one of those who says they're not that dominant as they could be(or as others are making it)
And what happened to my JAGW flair? that's jar jar 
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I think you should read this thread and what the op argues to understand why i post these things. Otherwise we talk past each other.
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We really need kespa back
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 29 2018 02:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I think you should read this thread and what the op argues to understand why i post these things. Otherwise we talk past each other.
I though that was a reaction on me, if not, then ignore me 
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I think we need Tastosis to discuss during their broadcast and see who they agree with :-)
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Creator beating TY was definitely due to his superior practice environment. There's no way TY can catch up to him with this disadvantage.
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On September 29 2018 04:41 Charoisaur wrote:
Creator beating TY was definitely due to his superior practice environment. There's no way TY can catch up to him with this disadvantage.
Yeah, I'm sure that's why Trap beat Stats as well, and there is no way for Stats to ever catch up to Trap with this disadvantage.......
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On September 29 2018 18:10 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2018 04:41 Charoisaur wrote:
Creator beating TY was definitely due to his superior practice environment. There's no way TY can catch up to him with this disadvantage. Yeah, I'm sure that's why Trap beat Stats as well, and there is no way for Stats to ever catch up to Trap with this disadvantage.......
Blatant sarcasm
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Too much biased fanboism and propaganda even get blamed by other foreign fans. And if he only had knowledge about sc2. But apparently he does not either.
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It is certainly true that teams disbanding and thus players retiring had a negative impact on the korean scene, less talent and thus less possible competition. We mostly have the top players still playing though, the players who had peaks before and showed they could be champions in the kespa era, so i wouldn't look at it too negatively. If anything the lack of new blood is something one should be concerned with, but that was also the case during the kespa time.
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EPT
