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4 Posts
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/b/b1/IEM_logo_2014.png)
What began with 76 players was down to the final four on Championship Sunday.  Classic, teammates  Rogue and  Maru, as well as the lone remaining foreigner, Serral, entered the day with a mere seven victories between themselves and the title of IEM World Champion.
Semifinal 1: Classic 3 - 0 Serral
- Game 1: Classic kicked off the series by opening gas first and delaying warpgate, an indication that he would head into stargate play. Serral took the bait, only for Classic to switch gears into a two base chargelot all in. Serral tried to defend with queens and zerglings, but it was an impossible task in the face of eight warp gates as the series got off to a brusque start for the Finn.
- Game 2: Serral’s ling flood failed to pay off, as Classic held a worker lead by the time Serral was ushered away. A pair of oracles along with a void ray and phoenix forced spores and queens. Classic followed that up by forcing a large number of zerglings with archon drops and zealot warpins. All the while he was collecting storm, immortals and archons. Ahead on supply, Classic moved across the map, easily crushing Serral who didn’t even have baneling speed ready.
- Game 3: Game three took place on Eastwatch. The game got off to a more passive start than the first two, with Serral slowly assembling an army filled with roaches, hydralisks and lurkers. Classic managed to snipe off Serral's gold base by killing the rocks, but Serral still had more bases and a thriving economy. He maxed out with his fifth base in production, but Classic moved out. His archons and immortals got caught in a choke, but he forced his way through, routing Serral’s army as the Finnish Zerg crumbled against Classic's more technologically advanced force. His concession gave Classic the match by a 3-0 scoring, raising his record on the weekend to 16-2 heading into the grand final.
Semifinal 2: Rogue 3 - 2 Maru
- Game 1: Maru opened the series with the out of favor 2/1/1 to minimal effect, with the most noteworthy contribution being the fact that it pushed Rogue into single evolution chamber play and held the creep spread back. Rogue tried to expand as the game progressed, only to lose three bases to Maru's marines. His run-by wiped out Maru's fourth base, but he had no answer to Maru's final push which featured the full Terran menagerie of ghosts, liberators and tanks.
- Game 2: Maru's proxy 2 rax blocked Rogue's ramp on Neon Violet Square, but the Jin Air Zerg managed to get up a gold base. Behind on workers, Rogue went for a ling/bane all in and, while he killed 20 workers, Maru survived with the worker count even. Killing both of Rogue's bases with banshees elicited the Zerg's concession.
- Game 3: Rogue went for a 17/17/17 in game three which succeeded in slowing the orbital at Maru's natural. His typically aggressive self, Maru pressured Rogue with hellions and drops while the latter defended with roaches. Having deflected Maru's double drop at his fourth base, Rogue morphed 15 ravagers and took the offense. He crashed into Maru's third base while keeping Maru's marines at bay with corrosive biles. The flood of units never stopped for Rogue, who pulled the score back to 2-1.
- Game 4: Maru appeared to have deflected Rogue's nydus worm without even knowing about it when his viking sniped Rogue's overseer, but the wall in his natural was anything but tight, allowing Rogue to run in and plant a nydus in Maru's main base anyway. Maru had no response to the roaches and queens, bringing the series to a fifth game.
- Game 5: Rogue went for pool/hatch/hatch on Backwater, even managing to kill some of Maru's SCVs with his first four zerglings. Rogue's decision to make eight mutalisks didn't net much damage, but his subsequent attack with an innumerable horde of zerglings and banelings put Maru at a 40 worker deficit. From there it was a simple matter of reloading before dealing the killing blow that sent Rogue to the finals.
Grand Final: Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
- Game 1: Rogue took game one with the same roach/queen nydus all-in that Elazer used to defeat Classic earlier in the tournament.
- Game 2: Rogue played a more standard game on Blackpink, defending against Classic's archon drops with zerglings and queens. Classic postured on the map, but finally decided to pull the trigger when mutalisks arrived in his main base. Classic lost most of his army as well as an entire mineral line, setting up a final attack of hydralisks along with 54 banelings that easily overran Classic.
- Game 3: Classic's three base chargelot/archon pressure put a slight kink in Rogue's economy on Neon Violet Square, but he continued into hydra/bane, largely unfazed. Classic begun to prod at Rogue who defended with minimal losses. Killing Rogue's gold base brought the base count from four to four, with Rogue going into brood lords while Classic had tempests in production. The players eventually split the map, with Rogue's runbys and zergling doom drop unable to do crippling damage. Rogue amassed a daunting army of brood lords, corruptors and vipers below which he erected a forest of spore crawlers. Classic was steadily bled dry, until he was forced into a hopeless engagement that gave Rogue a 3-0 lead.
- Game 4: Rogue's low economy ling/ravager all-in did substantial damage to Classic’s economy, but Classic survived due in large part to void rays. He added on oracles and a second stargate, doing economic damage and killing queens before adding a robotics facility. He managed to squander whatever lead he did have, however, losing expensive stargate units without getting anything in return. Rogue put the queens he had been building to good use as he walked them across the very small Abiogenesis. Queens, roaches and zerglings proved to be too much as Rogue took his fourth win, making him the IEM World Champion.
Rogue is your 2018 IEM World Champion!
Recaps by: Mizenhauer
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Rogue hype!
The reason I had a JAGW flair for years and usually my FPL captain. Nice to see him bounce back so soon! Hopefully he can bring that level to the GSL next season.
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Just finished watching the rerun of the finals! What a great series and tournament - can't believe it, Rogue was on the on the ropes in the semis, then pulled of a 4-0 in the finals.
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This final will remain a classic forever. What a stomp!
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Well, didnt expect that.
He wasnt looking really great (imo) ( and his normal macro games ( so game 1 against maru and TY ) against terrans confirmed that ), it's is a real proof of strength to win even when you look (imo) on the descending slope.
However he said he will not train too hard until Blizzcon, so he will probably not dominate this year.
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Jin Air players are just too good atm. Unfortunately Rogue is out of GSL already, and sOs vs. Maru will happen for the third time in three months. It is really painful to only pick one of them to move on.
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On March 05 2018 04:35 Alarak89 wrote:
Jin Air players are just too good atm. Unfortunately Rogue is out of GSL already, and sOs vs. Maru will happen for the third time in three months. It is really painful to only pick one of them to move on.
The fairest solution is for sOs to win GSL and for Maru to win WESG.
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On March 05 2018 04:45 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 04:35 Alarak89 wrote:
Jin Air players are just too good atm. Unfortunately Rogue is out of GSL already, and sOs vs. Maru will happen for the third time in three months. It is really painful to only pick one of them to move on. The fairest solution is for sOs to win GSL and for Maru to win WESG.
That will be too perfect, top 3 most earning players are all from Jin Air, with each race represented, I don't see this happens.
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On March 05 2018 04:24 Mun_Su wrote:
I threw up
Me too.
Group stage was way more interesting.
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There's something about Jin Air players and winning $100k+ tournaments.
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Yet another tournament outcome completely changed because Maru misbuilt his wall :/
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On March 05 2018 05:29 Fango wrote:
Yet another tournament outcome completely changed because Maru misbuilt his wall :/
Sometime I feel bad for Maru. Remember IEM Tappei 2015 when he was beating Life and then Life paused and then Maru just crumbled ?
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Classic looked so untouchable in previous rounds and Rogue bopped him just like that.
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Russian Federation169 Posts
Oh look at that)))))
Patchzerg succeeds 4:0 even without being put in a top 10 power rank and predicted to be knocked out of his group. How did this come to pass??)))))))
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Finland939 Posts
On March 05 2018 05:53 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
Oh look at that)))))
Patchzerg succeeds 4:0 even without being put in a top 10 power rank and predicted to be knocked out of his group. How did this come to pass??)))))))
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/fW1kbp6.jpg)
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The PR is like the Hitchiker's guide to the Galaxy: definite. But the reality is frequently wrong.
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To be fair the PR did put Classic #1 which was entirely reasonable. He was the hottest player going through the event. The big error was not putting rogue and maru on it.
And I guess the inclusion of Stats/Inno/zest/Scarlett who didn't do particularly well
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Is it Rogue whos still Op or Classic can't ZvP against top zergs?
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Zerg XD
User was warned for this post.
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On March 05 2018 06:19 Fango wrote:
To be fair the PR did put Classic #1 which was entirely reasonable. He was the hottest player going through the event. The big error was not putting rogue and maru on it.
And I guess the inclusion of Stats/Inno/zest/Scarlett who didn't do particularly well
You'd have to be prescient to not include INno or soO in the top 10.
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On March 05 2018 05:53 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
Oh look at that)))))
Patchzerg succeeds 4:0 even without being put in a top 10 power rank and predicted to be knocked out of his group. How did this come to pass??)))))))
Games aren't played on paper and form fluctuates.
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On March 05 2018 06:19 Fango wrote:
To be fair the PR did put Classic #1 which was entirely reasonable. He was the hottest player going through the event. The big error was not putting rogue and maru on it.
And I guess the inclusion of Stats/Inno/zest/Scarlett who didn't do particularly well
and soO. Jesus so many people absolutely bombed this tournament.
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Congrats to Rogue proving everyone wrong :p. What if he just wins everything from now on?
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On March 05 2018 06:28 argonautdice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 06:19 Fango wrote:
To be fair the PR did put Classic #1 which was entirely reasonable. He was the hottest player going through the event. The big error was not putting rogue and maru on it.
And I guess the inclusion of Stats/Inno/zest/Scarlett who didn't do particularly well and soO. Jesus so many people absolutely bombed this tournament.
The strange thing is out of stats/inno/zest/Scarlett/soO, soO is the one who looked legitimately in amazing form right now. All the others have been at least very inconsistent since 4.0
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On March 05 2018 06:04 hexhaven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 05:53 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
Oh look at that)))))
Patchzerg succeeds 4:0 even without being put in a top 10 power rank and predicted to be knocked out of his group. How did this come to pass??)))))))
hahaha
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holy shit so sad for maru, why stop tank production in game 3 when you know that zerg massing roach ravager, it should've been easy 3-0...
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Awesome tournament. I even managed to get a photo with Tasteless and Trap 
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On March 05 2018 07:19 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
holy shit so sad for maru, why stop tank production in game 3 when you know that zerg massing roach ravager, it should've been easy 3-0...
He was probably thinking "let's troll mizenhauer" :D
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I have Three things to say:
1) 1. KR Z Rogue Jin Air Green Wings $523,707
2) Are we convinced now that Zerg did not need the base overlord speed buff?
3) Are we finally convinced now that queens did not really need the air range buff?
If you can't accept all three of these, your logic has deficits.
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Amazing! I love it!
Rogue wins Blizzcon, doesn't do much for a few months, then goes on to win Katowice. And doing it by crushing Classic, who's been playing brilliantly and believed by many to win the tournament.
ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE
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JinAirGreen Wins! 
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Yay..... the best player won the tournament, and patch scv puller did not
User was banned for this post.
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That was pretty crazy. I did not think that Classic would be taken down so "easily" by Rogue after his stomping of everyone else he played against including Serral. Good work to Rogue!
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On March 05 2018 05:32 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 05:29 Fango wrote:
Yet another tournament outcome completely changed because Maru misbuilt his wall :/ Sometime I feel bad for Maru. Remember IEM Tappei 2015 when he was beating Life and then Life paused and then Maru just crumbled ?
Yeah, pretty tragic for him. It's a bit heartbreaking to see him play out of his mind and then see the way he manages to lose.
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On March 05 2018 08:37 yyzyyz wrote:
Yay..... the best player won the tournament, and patch scv puller did not
User was banned for this post.
Been missing you, swag_bro!
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On March 05 2018 07:56 KR_4EVR wrote:I have Three things to say: 1) 1. KR Z Rogue Jin Air Green Wings $523,7072) Are we convinced now that Zerg did not need the base overlord speed buff? 3) Are we finally convinced now that queens did not really need the air range buff? If you can't accept all three of these, your logic has deficits.
So all of these factors...there are so many counterexamples I don't have time to list them, but off the top of my head they caused Maru to not wall off in G4, or Classic to continue on 2 stargates with at least 2 spores + queens in every base?
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Anyone else notice how Rogue struggled to hold that massive trophy? It looked like it was too heavy for him to hold for long.
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On March 05 2018 12:04 Zzoram wrote:
Anyone else notice how Rogue struggled to hold that massive trophy? It looked like it was too heavy for him to hold for long.
The Katowice vice-president who brought it also struggled to lift it.
Have you just seen the size of that trophy ? When it was next to Rogue or when he tried to lift it, it covered all of his upper body from his waist to his head. That thing is so massive I wouldn't be surprised if it's weighing 15-20kg.
Try lifting that above your head without struggling when you don't work out.
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Btw, there's a very good chance that it might be we will see JinAirGWs roaster next year. Rogue saving e-sport.
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United States97276 Posts
i heard he's a bonjwa now
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On March 05 2018 12:57 Shellshock wrote:
i heard he's a bonjwa now
i heard it too, and it's soooo good.
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Great stuff Rogue!!! Congrats to JinAir Greenwings and long live!!!
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Maru played so well, very underserved loss.
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On March 05 2018 12:39 engesser1 wrote:
Btw, there's a very good chance that it might be we will see JinAirGWs roaster next year. Rogue saving e-sport.
just need other korean teams to make it competetive
maybe splyce pick up some more players?
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The last game reminded me a lot of a certain Byul vs Revival game.
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Come on Jin AIr! Take away the prize money from Trap sOs Maru and Rogue and use it to found another SSL this year!
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Well done Rogue. Proved to me he isn't a flash in the pan, and Serral has done foreignerland proud too.
Gutted for Maru but he went through one hell of a tear this tournament.
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I really hope we get a complete overhaul of maps soon. Removal of watchtowers between base paths was definitely healthy but the amount of high ground hiding spots for overlords that serve this same purpose seems really absurd.
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France12904 Posts
I want terrans to be able to win badly, I'm really tired of these ZvZ / PvZ finals.
Classic being 4-0ed is anti hype as fuck but I'm glad Rogue beat him so we won't ever have to hear patch zerg again (soO and Stats didn't even qualify tho :X)
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On March 05 2018 07:56 KR_4EVR wrote:I have Three things to say: 1) 1. KR Z Rogue Jin Air Green Wings $523,7072) Are we convinced now that Zerg did not need the base overlord speed buff? 3) Are we finally convinced now that queens did not really need the air range buff? If you can't accept all three of these, your logic has deficits.
your logic has deficits if you can't accept that sc2 is a complex game, player skill and performance is uneven and difficult to predict and yhr outcome of a tournament is influenced by a myriad of in- and out-of-game factors.
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This is not about "how to whine". JinAir rules! Rogue - bonjwa, but...
IEM Season XII - World Championship ZvP finals Z-win. P-runner-up.
IEM Season XII - PyeongChang same...
2018 WCS Leipzig... same stuff here.
HomeStory Cup XVI - PvZ, P-win. Z-runner-up.
WESG 2017 - Asia-Pacific Qualifier same stuff here.
2017 WCS Global Finals - ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
2017 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament #2 - ZvP again.
2017 WCS Montreal PvZ again.
Something wrong in here... where is terran (who?).
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On March 05 2018 18:37 engesser1 wrote:
This is not about "how to whine". JinAir rules! Rogue - bonjwa, but...
IEM Season XII - World Championship ZvP finals Z-win. P-runner-up.
IEM Season XII - PyeongChang same...
2018 WCS Leipzig... same stuff here.
HomeStory Cup XVI - PvZ, P-win. Z-runner-up.
WESG 2017 - Asia-Pacific Qualifier same stuff here.
2017 WCS Global Finals - ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
2017 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament #2 - ZvP again.
2017 WCS Montreal PvZ again.
Something wrong in here... where is terran (who?).
but nerf raven
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On March 05 2018 07:56 KR_4EVR wrote:I have Three things to say: 1) 1. KR Z Rogue Jin Air Green Wings $523,7072) Are we convinced now that Zerg did not need the base overlord speed buff? 3) Are we finally convinced now that queens did not really need the air range buff? If you can't accept all three of these, your logic has deficits.
There's really a simpler solution to PvZ's woes.
Put Overlord drop tech on lair. It eliminates the early ling drops that are forcing Protoss into Stargate openers in the match up. Once you've done that, you allow Protoss to start developing timings that can take advantage of some of the meta things Zerg are fond of at the moment.
It's really the best solution. We've seen from this tournament many times how helpful Overlord Drops are past Lair tech, and other than forcing PvZ into Stargate openers we hardly ever see pre-Lair overlord shenanigans in the other match ups.
It's the appropriate move, if a move is needed.
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Honestly, when a final result is 4:0 something is bad with balance, no matter what happens on the entire tournament. The most boring games were on the finals WTF.
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Finland939 Posts
On March 05 2018 20:06 EESCLuna wrote:
Honestly, when a final result is 4:0 something is bad with balance, no matter what happens on the entire tournament. The most boring games were on the finals WTF.
Classic looked just as distressed in the finals as Serral looked in the semifinals, which I found ironic.
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On March 05 2018 07:56 KR_4EVR wrote:I have Three things to say: 1) 1. KR Z Rogue Jin Air Green Wings $523,7072) Are we convinced now that Zerg did not need the base overlord speed buff? 3) Are we finally convinced now that queens did not really need the air range buff? If you can't accept all three of these, your logic has deficits.
If you dont agree with me on my arbitrary made up premises, then you are factually wrong. /thread
Also shame on the PR makers for not correctly guessing the top 16 players by name and rank. #FakeStevemustbefired
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If 2 players are equally good and balance is perfect the liklihood of 4:0 s is 6%. So that result does not tell much about balance.
But that no major tourmant has had a Terran in the finals for this long seems a bit unlikely given perfect balance.
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On March 05 2018 18:37 engesser1 wrote:
This is not about "how to whine". JinAir rules! Rogue - bonjwa, but...
IEM Season XII - World Championship ZvP finals Z-win. P-runner-up.
IEM Season XII - PyeongChang same...
2018 WCS Leipzig... same stuff here.
HomeStory Cup XVI - PvZ, P-win. Z-runner-up.
WESG 2017 - Asia-Pacific Qualifier same stuff here.
2017 WCS Global Finals - ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
2017 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament #2 - ZvP again.
2017 WCS Montreal PvZ again.
Something wrong in here... where is terran (who?).
"Raven is beyond broken and terran is favoured against Z and P because of it"
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 05 2018 20:56 MockHamill wrote:
If 2 players are equally good and balance is perfect the liklihood of 4:0 s is 6%. So that result does not tell much about balance.
But that no major tourmant has had a Terran in the finals for this long seems a bit unlikely given perfect balance.
Given perfect balance and equal skill in all MU! This is quite hard - we can have a beast in TvZ but a loser in TvP(or vice versa). Which kinda screws the argument(though I'm not saying it's perfectly fine).
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On March 05 2018 12:35 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 12:04 Zzoram wrote:
Anyone else notice how Rogue struggled to hold that massive trophy? It looked like it was too heavy for him to hold for long. The Katowice vice-president who brought it also struggled to lift it. Have you just seen the size of that trophy ? When it was next to Rogue or when he tried to lift it, it covered all of his upper body from his waist to his head. That thing is so massive I wouldn't be surprised if it's weighing 15-20kg. Try lifting that above your head without struggling when you don't work out.
So yeah, getting a good grip of it and lifting it might definitely be a bit difficult for quite a few.
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On March 05 2018 22:25 D-light wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 12:35 Snarosc wrote:On March 05 2018 12:04 Zzoram wrote:
Anyone else notice how Rogue struggled to hold that massive trophy? It looked like it was too heavy for him to hold for long. The Katowice vice-president who brought it also struggled to lift it. Have you just seen the size of that trophy ? When it was next to Rogue or when he tried to lift it, it covered all of his upper body from his waist to his head. That thing is so massive I wouldn't be surprised if it's weighing 15-20kg. Try lifting that above your head without struggling when you don't work out. https://twitter.com/mbCARMAC/status/970312054195326976So yeah, getting a good grip of it and lifting it might definitely be a bit difficult for quite a few.
Would have been nice to see Zest lifting it with one hand :D
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Bah, it used to be that a nerd was able to carry 17'' CRT, that's something about 20kg of weight. Good ol' nerd would have carry it 
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On March 05 2018 18:37 engesser1 wrote:
This is not about "how to whine". JinAir rules! Rogue - bonjwa, but...
IEM Season XII - World Championship ZvP finals Z-win. P-runner-up.
IEM Season XII - PyeongChang same...
2018 WCS Leipzig... same stuff here.
HomeStory Cup XVI - PvZ, P-win. Z-runner-up.
WESG 2017 - Asia-Pacific Qualifier same stuff here.
2017 WCS Global Finals - ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
2017 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament #2 - ZvP again.
2017 WCS Montreal PvZ again.
Something wrong in here... where is terran (who?).
I'm fine with terran s current state besides raven and i already said blizzard need to be fucking careful with raven buff. No one asking for one late game solution... but whatever....
But pvz is fucking silly right now. We could argue that it's because new patch came out right before IEM,everything was new so bogus 4-0'd stats with cyclones meme is understandable.
This final was boring as hell despite huge patch came out for a while.And the issues is still the damn same early game issue.Dont get angry but I think Rogue is still patchzerg and this huge patch is just another patch for him. Dark and soO are still one level above him but jin air players are very good at exploiting things and it is thier trademark since HOTS.
Gotta run xD
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On March 05 2018 22:53 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 22:25 D-light wrote:On March 05 2018 12:35 Snarosc wrote:On March 05 2018 12:04 Zzoram wrote:
Anyone else notice how Rogue struggled to hold that massive trophy? It looked like it was too heavy for him to hold for long. The Katowice vice-president who brought it also struggled to lift it. Have you just seen the size of that trophy ? When it was next to Rogue or when he tried to lift it, it covered all of his upper body from his waist to his head. That thing is so massive I wouldn't be surprised if it's weighing 15-20kg. Try lifting that above your head without struggling when you don't work out. https://twitter.com/mbCARMAC/status/970312054195326976So yeah, getting a good grip of it and lifting it might definitely be a bit difficult for quite a few. Would have been nice to see Zest lifting it with one hand :D
He looks damn good with it
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 05 2018 11:03 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 07:56 KR_4EVR wrote:I have Three things to say: 1) 1. KR Z Rogue Jin Air Green Wings $523,7072) Are we convinced now that Zerg did not need the base overlord speed buff? 3) Are we finally convinced now that queens did not really need the air range buff? If you can't accept all three of these, your logic has deficits. So all of these factors...there are so many counterexamples I don't have time to list them, but off the top of my head they caused Maru to not wall off in G4, or Classic to continue on 2 stargates with at least 2 spores + queens in every base?
You're missing the point of what I said entirely. Obviously each mistake you mentioned is uncorrelated to the points I mentioned. Rather than explain in another way, I'll say something different. Now that zerg have speedy drop overlords which can travel faster than unboosted medivacs, do they need to have nydus networks that are un-targetable before opening?
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On March 06 2018 05:50 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 18:37 engesser1 wrote:
This is not about "how to whine". JinAir rules! Rogue - bonjwa, but...
IEM Season XII - World Championship ZvP finals Z-win. P-runner-up.
IEM Season XII - PyeongChang same...
2018 WCS Leipzig... same stuff here.
HomeStory Cup XVI - PvZ, P-win. Z-runner-up.
WESG 2017 - Asia-Pacific Qualifier same stuff here.
2017 WCS Global Finals - ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
2017 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament #2 - ZvP again.
2017 WCS Montreal PvZ again.
Something wrong in here... where is terran (who?).
I'm fine with terran s current state besides raven and i already said blizzard need to be fucking careful with raven buff. No one asking for one late game solution... but whatever.... But pvz is fucking silly right now. We could argue that it's because new patch came out right before IEM,everything was new so bogus 4-0'd stats with cyclones meme is understandable. This final was boring as hell despite huge patch came out for a while.And the issues is still the damn same early game issue.Dont get angry but I think Rogue is still patchzerg and this huge patch is just another patch for him. Dark and soO are still one level above him but jin air players are very good at exploiting things and it is thier trademark since HOTS. Gotta run xD
Well, you just don't want to admit Rogue played better. Nothing related to balance.
And you have suddendly forget than soO loses versus Harstem, Losira/TLO/Ragnarok vs Patience, Dark vs Trap, Impact vs Dear, Serral vs Classic, and the result is 50% winrate on PvZ on this tournament.
Rogue was 11-0 on ZvP, he hasn't lost a single map vs Protoss in IEM, because he is a beast on ZvP, but the other zergs are not. Serral has even beateb Rogue, but it hasn't stopped him to lose 0-3 vs Classic.
On March 06 2018 06:37 KR_4EVR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 11:03 mierin wrote:On March 05 2018 07:56 KR_4EVR wrote:I have Three things to say: 1) 1. KR Z Rogue Jin Air Green Wings $523,7072) Are we convinced now that Zerg did not need the base overlord speed buff? 3) Are we finally convinced now that queens did not really need the air range buff? If you can't accept all three of these, your logic has deficits. So all of these factors...there are so many counterexamples I don't have time to list them, but off the top of my head they caused Maru to not wall off in G4, or Classic to continue on 2 stargates with at least 2 spores + queens in every base? You're missing the point of what I said entirely. Obviously each mistake you mentioned is uncorrelated to the points I mentioned. Rather than explain in another way, I'll say something different. Now that zerg have speedy drop overlords which can travel faster than unboosted medivacs, do they need to have nydus networks that are un-targetable before opening?
Overlord with speed : 2.6
Medivac without boost : 3.5...
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On March 05 2018 23:49 deacon.frost wrote:Bah, it used to be that a nerd was able to carry 17'' CRT, that's something about 20kg of weight. Good ol' nerd would have carry it
Rogue needs to seriously start practicing lifting weights in case he accidently wins WESG also.
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On March 06 2018 06:39 KR_4EVR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 23:49 deacon.frost wrote:Bah, it used to be that a nerd was able to carry 17'' CRT, that's something about 20kg of weight. Good ol' nerd would have carry it Rogue needs to seriously start practicing lifting weights in case he accidently wins WESG also.
I'd be really impressed by him winning a tournament he isn't even qualified for.
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Overlord with speed : 2.6
Medivac without boost : 3.5...
Ok I admit I was remembering the wrong number (from Overseers (4.7)).
Still, If you take average distance to average time, incorporating the fact that medivacs are unavailable until Tier-3, overlord drops can be much earlier than medivac drops.
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On March 06 2018 06:45 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 06:39 KR_4EVR wrote:On March 05 2018 23:49 deacon.frost wrote:Bah, it used to be that a nerd was able to carry 17'' CRT, that's something about 20kg of weight. Good ol' nerd would have carry it Rogue needs to seriously start practicing lifting weights in case he accidently wins WESG also. I'd be really impressed by him winning a tournament he isn't even qualified for.
Rogue didn't qualify for IEM Katowice, either. He was seeded.
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On March 06 2018 06:57 KR_4EVR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 06:45 Solar424 wrote:On March 06 2018 06:39 KR_4EVR wrote:On March 05 2018 23:49 deacon.frost wrote:Bah, it used to be that a nerd was able to carry 17'' CRT, that's something about 20kg of weight. Good ol' nerd would have carry it Rogue needs to seriously start practicing lifting weights in case he accidently wins WESG also. I'd be really impressed by him winning a tournament he isn't even qualified for. Rogue didn't qualify for IEM Katowice, either. He was seeded.
WESG doesn't have an open bracket like IEM.
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On March 06 2018 06:53 KR_4EVR wrote:Ok I admit I was remembering the wrong number (from Overseers (4.7)). Still, If you take average distance to average time, incorporating the fact that medivacs are unavailable until Tier-3, overlord drops can be much earlier than medivac drops.
wait..what??
Drop Ov: spawning pool, ev.chamber = 2 buildings
Medivac: barracks, starport = 2 buildings
so you're saying Medivac is late tech while Droperlord is early tech??
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your Country52797 Posts
On March 06 2018 07:11 waiting2Bbanned wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 06:53 KR_4EVR wrote:
Overlord with speed : 2.6
Medivac without boost : 3.5...
Ok I admit I was remembering the wrong number (from Overseers (4.7)). Still, If you take average distance to average time, incorporating the fact that medivacs are unavailable until Tier-3, overlord drops can be much earlier than medivac drops. wait..what?? Drop Ov: spawning pool, ev.chamber = 2 buildings Medivac: barracks, starport = 2 buildings so you're saying Medivac is late tech while Droperlord is early tech??
Are factories not buildings now?
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On March 06 2018 07:26 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 07:11 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On March 06 2018 06:53 KR_4EVR wrote:
Overlord with speed : 2.6
Medivac without boost : 3.5...
Ok I admit I was remembering the wrong number (from Overseers (4.7)). Still, If you take average distance to average time, incorporating the fact that medivacs are unavailable until Tier-3, overlord drops can be much earlier than medivac drops. wait..what?? Drop Ov: spawning pool, ev.chamber = 2 buildings Medivac: barracks, starport = 2 buildings so you're saying Medivac is late tech while Droperlord is early tech?? Are factories not buildings now?
Only in TL you can see such a high level of theorycrafting
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On March 06 2018 06:53 KR_4EVR wrote:Ok I admit I was remembering the wrong number (from Overseers (4.7)). Still, If you take average distance to average time, incorporating the fact that medivacs are unavailable until Tier-3, overlord drops can be much earlier than medivac drops.
Zerg drops are also far less cost-efficient than Terran drops until much later in the game, though.
8 stim marines will do far more damage than 8 zerglings or 4 roaches.
Edit: Also calling a Starport Tier 3 is LAUGHABLE, it's Tier 2 at most, more like Tier 1.75, considering that a Spire is T2 and there is absolutely no way to get one of those out before even Starport + Research tech such as Cloak Banshees.
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On March 06 2018 07:11 waiting2Bbanned wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 06:53 KR_4EVR wrote:
Overlord with speed : 2.6
Medivac without boost : 3.5...
Ok I admit I was remembering the wrong number (from Overseers (4.7)). Still, If you take average distance to average time, incorporating the fact that medivacs are unavailable until Tier-3, overlord drops can be much earlier than medivac drops. wait..what?? Drop Ov: spawning pool, ev.chamber = 2 buildings Medivac: barracks, starport = 2 buildings so you're saying Medivac is late tech while Droperlord is early tech??
Incorrect. You forget that while zerg starts with overlord, terran has to build supply depot before barracks.
Path to 2 drop overlords: spawning pool, extractor, overlord, evo chamber, morph.
Cost = 450 minerals, 50 gas, 3 drones (ignoring the cargo)
Path to 2 medivacs: supply depot, barracks, orbital command, factory, reactor, starport, 2 medivacs.
Cost = 1025 minerals, 450 gas, lost mining time on scvs building stuff (ignoring the cargo)
None of these can realistically be skipped.
I have yet to hear a legitimate argument for why zerg needs drop overlord before lair tech. Why, even ravagers can be morphed before Lair. It's not like there aren't options.
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On March 06 2018 09:41 SmileZerg wrote:
Edit: Also calling a Starport Tier 3 is LAUGHABLE, it's Tier 2 at most, more like Tier 1.75, considering that a Spire is T2 and there is absolutely no way to get one of those out before even Starport + Research tech such as Cloak Banshees.
Count how much you absolutely have to build to reach Vipers: Spawning pool, extractor, Lair, Infestation Pit, Hive.
Count how much you have to build to reach medivacs: supply depot, barracks, refinery, orbital command, factory, starport.
Oh, wait, that's the same amount....
But guess what? Terran doesn't have a 'tier' tech structure. I just was bringing up the building order for comparison. Yes, medivacs are comparable to vipers in tech pathing. They're expensive support units.
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I will just say one more thing.
Watching Maru vs. sOs, I was truly impressed by both players every single game for 5 games. It was fun to watch.
Watching Rogue v. Classic, there was not one single "wow" moment in four whole games. Not the kind of thing that is going to keep SCII fanbase excited.
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You're comparing (incorrectly) the costs of Zerg getting 2 slowverlords that can elevator a few lings up a cliff to the cost of two highly mobile transports that heal their cargo while darting back and forth between multiple attack locations.
On top of that, all this balance whining about early Zerg drop when it demonstrably failed to do anything this weekend where Serral tried to use it against Classic.
Stop being salty about bad ladder strats that you lose to.
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On March 06 2018 10:24 SmileZerg wrote:
You're comparing (incorrectly) the costs of Zerg getting 2 slowverlords that can elevator a few lings up a cliff to the cost of two highly mobile transports that heal their cargo while darting back and forth between multiple attack locations.
On top of that, all this balance whining about early Zerg drop when it demonstrably failed to do anything this weekend where Serral tried to use it against Classic.
Stop being salty about bad ladder strats that you lose to.
When I play Terran, I don't lose to zerg. Almost never. I only lose to protoss. Then again, i'm only Diamond 2.
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On March 06 2018 10:19 KR_4EVR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 09:41 SmileZerg wrote:
Edit: Also calling a Starport Tier 3 is LAUGHABLE, it's Tier 2 at most, more like Tier 1.75, considering that a Spire is T2 and there is absolutely no way to get one of those out before even Starport + Research tech such as Cloak Banshees. Count how much you absolutely have to build to reach Vipers: Spawning pool, extractor, Lair, Infestation Pit, Hive. Count how much you have to build to reach medivacs: supply depot, barracks, refinery, orbital command, factory, starport. Oh, wait, that's the same amount.... But guess what? Terran doesn't have a 'tier' tech structure. I just was bringing up the building order for comparison. Yes, medivacs are comparable to vipers in tech pathing. They're expensive support units.
...are you trolling here or do you actually believe that counting the buildings is equivalent?
Here's a hint, check the build times on those structures, and also you can forget the orbital command for that list because it isn't required for any tech, but if you're including it for mineral cost than add Queens for Zerg which renders it moot.
Show me one professional game where a standard Zerg build got out Vipers at anywhere near the same timeframe Terran got Medivacs. This is a ridiculous argument, bordering on childishly stupid.
On March 06 2018 10:22 KR_4EVR wrote:
I will just say one more thing.
Watching Maru vs. sOs, I was truly impressed by both players every single game for 5 games. It was fun to watch.
Watching Rogue v. Classic, there was not one single "wow" moment in four whole games. Not the kind of thing that is going to keep SCII fanbase excited.
So you missed the entirety of game 3 when Rogue brilliantly outplayed him with feints, multiple backstabs, zergling run-arounds and drops in a long macro slugfest? Because that was genius. Stop being such a whiner.
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On March 06 2018 10:33 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 10:19 KR_4EVR wrote:On March 06 2018 09:41 SmileZerg wrote:
Edit: Also calling a Starport Tier 3 is LAUGHABLE, it's Tier 2 at most, more like Tier 1.75, considering that a Spire is T2 and there is absolutely no way to get one of those out before even Starport + Research tech such as Cloak Banshees. Count how much you absolutely have to build to reach Vipers: Spawning pool, extractor, Lair, Infestation Pit, Hive. Count how much you have to build to reach medivacs: supply depot, barracks, refinery, orbital command, factory, starport. Oh, wait, that's the same amount.... But guess what? Terran doesn't have a 'tier' tech structure. I just was bringing up the building order for comparison. Yes, medivacs are comparable to vipers in tech pathing. They're expensive support units. ...are you trolling here or do you actually believe that counting the buildings is equivalent? Here's a hint, check the build times on those structures, and also you can forget the orbital command for that list because it isn't required for any tech, but if you're including it for mineral cost than add Queens for Zerg which renders it moot. Show me one professional game where a standard Zerg build got out Vipers at anywhere near the same timeframe Terran got Medivacs. This is a ridiculous argument, bordering on childishly stupid. Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 10:22 KR_4EVR wrote:
I will just say one more thing.
Watching Maru vs. sOs, I was truly impressed by both players every single game for 5 games. It was fun to watch.
Watching Rogue v. Classic, there was not one single "wow" moment in four whole games. Not the kind of thing that is going to keep SCII fanbase excited. So you missed the entirety of game 3 when Rogue brilliantly outplayed him with feints, multiple backstabs, zergling run-arounds and drops in a long macro slugfest? Because that was genius. Stop being such a whiner.
Comparing game 3 to HOTS late game PvZ, How much have changed to the first time viewer? For me the "boring" game that ends quickly was the wtfow moments. The games just seemed surreal.
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On March 06 2018 10:19 KR_4EVR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 09:41 SmileZerg wrote:
Edit: Also calling a Starport Tier 3 is LAUGHABLE, it's Tier 2 at most, more like Tier 1.75, considering that a Spire is T2 and there is absolutely no way to get one of those out before even Starport + Research tech such as Cloak Banshees. Count how much you absolutely have to build to reach Vipers: Spawning pool, extractor, Lair, Infestation Pit, Hive. Count how much you have to build to reach medivacs: supply depot, barracks, refinery, orbital command, factory, starport. Oh, wait, that's the same amount.... But guess what? Terran doesn't have a 'tier' tech structure. I just was bringing up the building order for comparison. Yes, medivacs are comparable to vipers in tech pathing. They're expensive support units.
I dont know what game you re playing, it surely is not SC2, but i dont even think it s an RTS. Must be some turn based card game im guessing, inspired by the starship troopers movie.
You balance whine based on counting the buildings needed for drop tech. Droplords in ZvT are barely viable, havent seen anyone flat-out lose to early lingdrops past platinum, it has some lategame use - more for spreading the Terran thin and forcing mistakes than actually killing shit.
Whereas medevac drops are staple in every single TvZ with bio, and in many mech games as well.
Cant decide if you re a blatant troll, a flame-baiter or someone who s totally detached from reality.
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Why are you even debating zerg drops in TvZ, the whole problem with Zerg drops before lair is it forces any macro protoss into stargate every single game.
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This was a great final. I watched it live at Katowice in Spodek Arena. Sure, it was a 4:0 stomp, but Rogue played that out of his mind, when in the same time Classic made very strange and bad choices. Two examples:
Rogue- neither Tasteless or Artosis seem to notice the genius play by Rogue in game 3 (that macro game), when he send a Changeling (which was changed in zealot already) and he placed him in Classic's wall at natural. It was so brilliant- Classic saw this and thought that his wall is sealed. Then Rogue timed his ling runby with that changeling expiration. I was amazed by this idea.- Something only rogue could invent.
Classic- Game 4. Rogue was so freaking behind, after that failed agression, that whatever Classic builds- Rogue's dead. Instead Classic chooses to build mass oracles- the only thing that couldn't kill Rogue. I mean...WTF? If Classic made mass adepts, zealots with charge, immortals, anything...It was so baaaad play, i couldn't even imagine.
Those are two examples of how these two players aproached to this series. Classic was drastically off in the finals. For example, I was waiting for Classic to use his Chargelots,Waprism,Immortal,Archonpush which was used to kill Serral 3 times in a row. It never happened, and I was shocked why, as it seemed impossible for Zerg to defend. In the other hand, ZvP is the best Rogue's matchup and he was ready for this 100%.
So, this whole discussion about balance, based on one tournament where for example soO was stomped by Harstem. BY HARSTEM. SOO. Is so biased...The whole thing with comparing getting Vipers by Zerg with getting Medivacks by Terran is beyond stupid. How is it even comparable?
Overlord drops are perfectly fine. It is easy for Protoss to counter that, with one phoenix or awerness. The problem is that Protosses used to play greedy and in the new iteration of LOTV it can be punished even by Zerg. I think it's healthy. If u move overlord drops to Lair Tech it would be making them useless. The thing with overlord drops is, that it's the only option to harass protoss in early game, and the only way to slow protoss down- as even knowing that it is an option demands from Protoss to be careful. Just as waprism, early Dark Shrine, Oracle, or proxy builds force Zerg to scout, be careful and aware.
For all u guys that are waiting for Terran to come back. I think that in next few weeks, every Terran will make mass Ravens. It's just the beginning of it. This new antiarmour missile combined with Auto Turret being restored, is very, very strong. In some cases it's more imba that old Seeker Missile- maybe it deals less damage, but it's faster- We all saw as Solar tried to avoid those hits from Maru and failed hard. U can't outmicro them. That - 3 to armour is soooo powerful. Everything under this spell dies so fast it's not even funny. Mark my words- it's only the beginning of Terran domination with this unit. I think it must be toned down a lil bit, becuase the problem with that spell is that it's too spammable.
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Vs oracle as zerg, i'm forced to build 125x3=375 for spores at 3:30, but Protoss whine they lose vs all-in while they could hold it with 3 SB=300mineral like Classic did.
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On March 06 2018 05:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2018 22:53 DSh1 wrote:On March 05 2018 22:25 D-light wrote:On March 05 2018 12:35 Snarosc wrote:On March 05 2018 12:04 Zzoram wrote:
Anyone else notice how Rogue struggled to hold that massive trophy? It looked like it was too heavy for him to hold for long. The Katowice vice-president who brought it also struggled to lift it. Have you just seen the size of that trophy ? When it was next to Rogue or when he tried to lift it, it covered all of his upper body from his waist to his head. That thing is so massive I wouldn't be surprised if it's weighing 15-20kg. Try lifting that above your head without struggling when you don't work out. https://twitter.com/mbCARMAC/status/970312054195326976So yeah, getting a good grip of it and lifting it might definitely be a bit difficult for quite a few. Would have been nice to see Zest lifting it with one hand :D He looks damn good with it + Show Spoiler +
Is that acutally the same trophy?
Edit: From the picture it looks like Zest had a different trophy. So maybe his is lighter :D?
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congratz to rogue, very well deserved <3 <3 <3
and to all the balance whiners: there is nothing wrong with balance, stop whining unless you have scientific proof, until then focus on developing new strategies.
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On March 06 2018 19:46 inken wrote:
congratz to rogue, very well deserved <3 <3 <3
and to all the balance whiners: there is nothing wrong with balance, stop whining unless you have scientific proof, until then focus on developing new strategies.
Scienttific proof....imo tournament statistics are proof enough. Since 4.0 no terran won a big tournament or even reached the final of one. A Zerg won blizzcon and Zerg won every big tournament since than except for HSC which was won by toss. These are simple facts that can't be denied. I think without some fix Terran will continue to struggle in this patch.
Maru showed how mighty the raven can be, but you cant win whole tournaments on the back of 1 unit because enemies will just focus on killing it.
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On March 06 2018 21:49 spenzzer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 19:46 inken wrote:
congratz to rogue, very well deserved <3 <3 <3
and to all the balance whiners: there is nothing wrong with balance, stop whining unless you have scientific proof, until then focus on developing new strategies. Scienttific proof....imo tournament statistics are proof enough. Since 4.0 no terran won a big tournament or even reached the final of one. A Zerg won blizzcon and Zerg won every big tournament since than except for HSC which was won by toss. These are simple facts that can't be denied. I think without some fix Terran will continue to struggle in this patch. Maru showed how mighty the raven can be, but you cant win whole tournaments on the back of 1 unit because enemies will just focus on killing it.
just a few tournament finals are such a small sample size that doesn't prove anything. it may very well be that terrans win the next few tournaments. check out the latest balance report on aligulac: as for january 2018 both tvp and tvz show a 50% winrate (terran even slightly favored). also check out the whole sc2 tournament history: protoss and zerg also had their dry phases.
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On March 06 2018 23:41 inken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 21:49 spenzzer wrote:On March 06 2018 19:46 inken wrote:
congratz to rogue, very well deserved <3 <3 <3
and to all the balance whiners: there is nothing wrong with balance, stop whining unless you have scientific proof, until then focus on developing new strategies. Scienttific proof....imo tournament statistics are proof enough. Since 4.0 no terran won a big tournament or even reached the final of one. A Zerg won blizzcon and Zerg won every big tournament since than except for HSC which was won by toss. These are simple facts that can't be denied. I think without some fix Terran will continue to struggle in this patch. Maru showed how mighty the raven can be, but you cant win whole tournaments on the back of 1 unit because enemies will just focus on killing it. just a few tournament finals are such a small sample size that doesn't prove anything. it may very well be that terrans win the next few tournaments. check out the latest balance report on aligulac: as for january 2018 both tvp and tvz show a 50% winrate (terran even slightly favored). also check out the whole sc2 tournament history: protoss and zerg also had their dry phases.
I think people have been saying this for what.... two years? If you throw out significant imbalance such as Byun reapers, you have maybe 1 tourney or 2 with a Terran victor? TY at IEM comes to mind. Possibly Innovation's latest GSL.
I'll definitely hold my breath for these "next few tournaments" where you think Terran will suddenly win consistently.
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Both TY and Maru blew a 2-0 lead against Rogue. Does the balance suddenly favor the other race when Terran player gets the match point? Had Serral and Rogue switched places in the bracket, we would have had a TVZ finals most likely.
Something that has a 6% chance happening happened? Woah there must be something wrong.
I am sure the next time Innovation goes back to play LoL, people will whine about how the best player suddenly playing bad means Terrans are nerfed too much. I find balance whining logic amazing, almost always.
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Rogue played awesome.
I would like to see a small change for the ultra-late game in PvZ, breaking the Zerg camping behind 50+ spores looks hard. It is not fun when a player is on the clock and the other is not.
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On March 07 2018 02:54 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Rogue played awesome.
I would like to see a small change for the ultra-late game in PvZ, breaking the Zerg camping behind 50+ spores looks hard. It is not fun when a player is on the clock and the other is not.
The core zerg army at that point is so immobile though. Building all those spores isn't cheap either. The main reason Rogue looked unbreakable at the end is because he leveraged his midgame advantage to control the map. If they entered the lategame on an even footing, Rogue's bases would have been much more vulnerable, giving Classic opportunities to force Rogue to react.
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EPT
IEM Season XII - World Championship
![[image loading]](https://dqrt72khb0whk.cloudfront.net/uploads/image/file/1221/cropped_IMG_9695.jpg?ts=1426889488)
