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We know in general what great macro looks like -- don't let your resources float up, don't get supply blocked, keep your upgrades going, et cetera.
The thing is, at the top level of SC2, there aren't players that are getting supply blocked or letting their resources float. (Sometimes Zerg and Protoss players will let resources build up a bit because of how warp gate and building out of hatcheries work, but that's different.)
So when casters talk about a player like Innovation having perfect/godly mechanics and don't point out specifically what they're doing, what are they specifically talking about? What separates the macro of Innovation from the macro of someone like Alive?
Obviously, Innovation's trophy case speaks to the fact his macro is that good, but it's got to be more complicated than just hitting production cycles and not missing depots. Is it having tighter builds, timings, and transitions than everyone? Is it knowing better than everyone when to build an extra production structure instead of additional units? Is it the ability to keep macro going while simultaneously microing a drop on the other side of the map?
I love watching great macro players and nod my head solemnly when I hear about how great a player's mechanics are, but I admit that I'm not an educated enough viewer to look at a Code S game and point to why one player is pulling ahead of the other because of his macro mechanics -- help educate me. (Especially when it comes to Protoss, because I REALLY have trouble seeing what separates the good from the great when it comes to that race's macro, even though players like Stats are out there proving it's really important.)
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
The thing is, at the top level of SC2, there aren't players that are getting supply blocked or letting their resources float.
Zest is infamous for floating excessive amounts of resources.
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Well the first thing you'll have to come to the realization to is that the casters don't understand the finer intricacies at that level of play, some don't even play the game at all (or at least haven't touched it since WoL).
Is it the ability to keep macro going while simultaneously microing a drop on the other side of the map?
Pretty much this. Good macro is being able to micro and multitask without missing a beat with their production.
For Protoss the only surefire way you'll see that someone messed late mid-game is high money since they don't have a way to queue units or hold down a hotkey to dump minerals into. The build orders are usually based around an aggressive timing or reactionary defense, so you won't see much there. If you do see a relatively passive game a better player might add their gateways much later and usually sit with 1 to 2 less for a longer period of time.
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Actually, pros don't have perfect macro. If you don't see them getting supply blocked or floating minerals then you just haven't looked closely enough. Especially, during engagements their macro suffers. Another indicator is if their upgrades go down immediately. Upgrades are the easiest to see because many pros take a few seconds to notice.
Another indicator is building a lot more production structures then you need. For example protoss throws down 6 gates. If you always warp in from 6 gates, 1 robo, 1 stargate you cannot afford it actually on 2/3, maybe even 4 bases. Same thing with macro hatches. Same story when you see terran players throwing 4 mules down at once. Although these cases could also have a strategic reason if they just deflected a big attack/want to be flexible with warp ins, but essentially I think it is also because it hides their flaws in macro.
My point is, you can always get better at macro. I think nobody has really perfect macro yet.
Examples I can think of:
Byun gets supply blocked all the time. When you look at his games, you'll notice he is dropping an awful lot of supply depots from his orbital command.
Polt queues a lot of units. Also I remember this game in the first wcs lotv tournament finals against snute. I think if he had perfect macro he could have had less raxes. Also notice he is throughout the game floating 200-700! minerals and thus he needs so many rax at the end.
Mechanics are also:
Reaper micro (you know what it looks like)
Worker splitting when widow mines come (stats is for example is not too good)
because these are just muscle memories.
When casters say someone is ahead they are mostly relying on their feeling, but actually the difference in macro is not that great at pro level as you pointed out. All pro players have good macro (except maybe Has).
Maybe you can also link a game you are thinking of and then we can tell you were the differenc in macro was.
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The definition of mechanics is hitting the right buttons in the right order at the right time. Great mechanics, then, is the ability to do exactly that, regardless of any other factors affecting the game.
Any Masters player can follow a build order to perfection when they don't have to worry about defending early harassment. That same Masters player can micro their early harassment to perfection when they don't have to worry about sticking to their build order. A pro, on the other hand, does both while also adjusting their build/harass to fit the circumstances of the game. Which is why they are at the professional level instead of Masters level.
You mentioned Inno, and he is frequently cited as the ideal mechanical player by casters and fans alike. To use Inno as an example, there are two aspects in particular about his mechanics that are repeatedly emphasized.
The first is as you said, having tighter builds, timings, and transitions than anyone else. As Tasteless put it, Inno's timing shows up ten seconds earlier with ten more marines. Last week, both Major and Inno played Solar in the Ballistix Brawl, and both of them used the exact same 2-tank push on the exact same spot of Catalyst. Solar easily cleaned up Major's push; he gg'd to Inno's push.
The second is also as you said, the ability to keep macro going while simultaneously microing on the other side of the map. As Rotterdam put it, the magic of INnoVation is when both players are maxed, they engage in a complete bloodbath of a fight, and when the dust clears, the other guy is at 120 supply and Inno is.....still maxed.
There's a reason that all advice about getting better on the ladder can basically be summed up as "macro better."
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If two players did the exact same build. Same units etc. The one with the better mechanics would win. Mechanics covers all the non strategic/tactical skills required to play the game. A player with strong mechanics is one with good reaction time, multitasking, clean macro (includes supply blocks or heavy queing, not slipping on worker or unit production, perfect timings etc), good micro etc
No one really has perfect mechanics. Some players get close if they're doing specific timings/builds. But if you pay attention to the games closely or watch replays you'll see pros make mistakes all the time. Supply blocks are common, queing units is common, losing units while not watching them etc.
Casters sometimes like to group players into mechanical and strategic types. Guys like Innovation, soO, Maru, or Classic tend to focus on honing mechanics and winning with perfectly executed builds. You'll rarely see their macro slip or units get mis-micro'd. While players like sOs, TY, Rogue, Gumiho etc on the other hand tend to win by out thinking their opponents. But this only applies to the elite level, where each pro is trying to find any way to get slightly better than the rest. In reality most games are decided by who has the best mechanics
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any INnoVation game really
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On February 07 2018 05:54 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +The thing is, at the top level of SC2, there aren't players that are getting supply blocked or letting their resources float. Zest is infamous for floating excessive amounts of resources.
can't really say that for protoss players, floating resources is normal when you have warpgates. Also good protosses have a tendency to not max out in some PvTs and leave 10-20 for warpins incase of drops
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On February 07 2018 08:20 Obamarauder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 05:54 ZigguratOfUr wrote:The thing is, at the top level of SC2, there aren't players that are getting supply blocked or letting their resources float. Zest is infamous for floating excessive amounts of resources. can't really say that for protoss players, floating resources is normal when you have warpgates. Also good protosses have a tendency to not max out in some PvTs and leave 10-20 for warpins incase of drops
Zest's macro is still bad even taking that into account. He routinely floats minerals in situations he really shouldn't. e.g Floating 3k minerals when at 160 supply and on 10 warpgates.
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On February 07 2018 08:38 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 08:20 Obamarauder wrote:On February 07 2018 05:54 ZigguratOfUr wrote:The thing is, at the top level of SC2, there aren't players that are getting supply blocked or letting their resources float. Zest is infamous for floating excessive amounts of resources. can't really say that for protoss players, floating resources is normal when you have warpgates. Also good protosses have a tendency to not max out in some PvTs and leave 10-20 for warpins incase of drops Zest's macro is still bad even taking that into account. He routinely floats minerals in situations he really shouldn't. e.g Floating 3k minerals when at 160 supply and on 10 warpgates.
Yeah, "Zest Macro" has been a meme for years
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It's hard to tell just from casts, you get a much better appreciation in replays.
One thing I have noticed in replays is that the likes of top players - I'm actually recording Zest vs soO GSL 2014 Season 1 finals now as I type this - where soO for example is flicking through his hatcheries like an absolute madman whilst microing lings, mutas, injecting, spreading creep, changing hatchery waypoints, moving the camera to get a good view of major engagements and angles. The production switching is so damn fast that it's difficult to even see the research/build progress bars in the middle of engagements.
"Lesser" players, and I mean that in a non-degrading manner and with the utmost respect, either simply can't do these as quickly or with enough finesse, or might simply lack in one particular area that is their achilles heel (like not microing an engagement, and instead hitting the the camera bind to view a base to do do a round of production or research something or even to use CC energy), only to find the army is now dead and lose or be seriously behind and be at a disadvantag).
Due to the pace of LotV however, I have noticed foreigners have caught up in certain mechanical areas are more on par with the Korean players.
I think the below kind of illustrates what I mean.
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm by no means an expert but I have thought about these things and observed them over the years. I hope that helps somewhat!.
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I think the OP and some of you have confused mechanics with macro. they are not the same thing at all.
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OP asks: what is great macro?
Gets answer: this is macro and/or mechanics
As Dangermousecatdog said, don't confuse them.
I think DHh1 answered quite well. Have enough structures to spend your resources, but not too many. Don't get supply blocket but don't over-invest in supply either. Also, expand on time and keep making workers.
INnoVation often has a CC ready earlier than most players. TY almost never misses production of workers, but he often goes too far. I have seen TY sacrificing 30 SCVs to get a bigger army but then produce 12 more SCVs out of habit.
Macro is the big stuff, micro is the small stuff. Mechanics affect both micro and macro.
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INno main flaw with mechanics is (imo) his reactionnary time to scv being attacked ^^ but this is more mechanic related than pure macro.
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Good Macro.
What is good Macro: It is eco-micro :D
50 workers produced @ 6:00 minutes <-- produced means if 20 die, you should have 30 workers @6:00
Production buildings are producing !constantly! (units/workers/upgrades)
1Depot !continuously! contstructing with 1base production ~3 production buildings (excluding CC/OC)
2Depot !continuously! contstructing with 2base production ~5buildings
3Depot !continuously! contstructing with 3base production ~8-11 buildings
throwing MULES on the rich mineral patches and only 1 MULE @ 1patch <-- see PiG daily #51
throwing MULEs as soon as possible
once your 2nd OC finishes throw MULES only @your 2nd base (main lasts longer->you have a longer 2/3base eco)
MULEs always thrown @ your newest base
keep your money LOW
build extra raxx and CC when you start floating minerals, 1k mins -> 3raxx and a CC for example
when the Main starts to mine out build your 4th base
when the Natural starts to mine out build your 5th base
Good Scv management means:
watch the saturation (should be 16-18 workers on minerals and 6 on gas), your second base only needs gas when SCV #18 starts mining.The time it takes to finish the 2 refinieries and have 22(16 SCVs ming gas / 6 SCVs mining minerals) workers is then perfectly timed. (assuming constant worker production)
When you got 22 SCVs (16minerals+6gas) @ both bases rally the workers to each individual base till you got 24 SCVs mining minerals or your 3rd CC finishes. Then transfer your excess SCVs from 1st/2nd base to the 3rd base.
In addition to that, and in relation to the question how to spot good mechanics:
-no screen scrolling (click the minimap)
-screen is always at the task shortly before it must be executed
-player clicks ON things and doesn't excessivly box stuff (splitting is different but the fine splits are also made by clicking on things, see Life's Zergling micro)
-being efficient with your screentime (for example: when you throw mules you can also build supplydepots)
(((((((((the next tips you can't see in a FPVOD, but you can realize it in your own play, if you pay attention to it)))))))))))
-most of it comes from the ageold tip: OOGLE THE MINIMAP LIKE A HAWK
-your eyes should spend the most time watching
a) the Minimap
b) resources/supply
c) hotkeyed production
edit: quotes and typing errors and additions
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If you want to see example of mediocre micro and great macro, look at Pateince's games from 2015. He lost battles because of inferior micro but won games with macro. After a battle was done, Patience had lost all of his army while the opponent had half of the army still standing. Then Patience attacked with the second army, overwhelming the survivors AND the reinforcements.
Patience lost fights all the time, but his macro made him a good player. Should he have had better micro he would have been at the top.
(I just wanted a non-terran example here)
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EPT
