|
On January 14 2018 18:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:16 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs. Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though. And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game. Ravens and auto-turret harass used to be the go-to opening in TvZ. You saw them basically every game. Whereas repair drones are barely ever seen. If you think repair drones are so strong why don't pros ever use them? Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to someone as divorced form reality as you are.
Progamers aren't as proficient at mech play as the enlighted mechanic only savants of 5k mmr.
|
On January 14 2018 10:06 -Kyo- wrote:
10 seconds?
i dont think people realize how good 6 seconds already is. 10 seconds vs protoss is insanity especially for the energy cost.
stalker... id need to play with first to have a full opinion on, disruptor obviously needs a change as no1 is using it at all, adepts ? not sure they really need a change, happy about the hydra change.
Atm the ability is completely useless because it lasts such a short time that it's always better to have more attacking units instead.
You deny 2-3 rounds of attacks with them and then your ravens are flying paperweights.
Only exception is siege tanks because of how important it is to close the distance vs them.
I doubt 10 seconds makes them worth building in any other matchup either.
|
On January 14 2018 18:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 10:06 -Kyo- wrote:
10 seconds?
i dont think people realize how good 6 seconds already is. 10 seconds vs protoss is insanity especially for the energy cost.
stalker... id need to play with first to have a full opinion on, disruptor obviously needs a change as no1 is using it at all, adepts ? not sure they really need a change, happy about the hydra change. Atm the ability is completely useless because it lasts such a short time that it's always better to have more attacking units instead. You deny 2-3 rounds of attacks with them and then your ravens are flying paperweights. Only exception is siege tanks because of how important it is to close the distance vs them. I doubt 10 seconds makes them worth building in any other matchup either.
I think it has an okay chance of wrecking TvT though. Cyclone/Raven/Hellion every game new meta?
It might actually turn out to be playable in TvP eventually (though obviously not currently where pure gateway bullies terran really hard).
|
On January 14 2018 18:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:16 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs. Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though. And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game. Ravens and auto-turret harass used to be the go-to opening in TvZ. You saw them basically every game. Whereas repair drones are barely ever seen. If you think repair drones are so strong why don't pros ever use them? Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to someone as divorced from reality as you are.
You really mastered the art of missing the point. The question isn't how good the turret is, but how good the raven is as a caster and how well it fits the role it needs to fit.
But since you seem competely oblivious to the fact that ravens as a late game unit are stronger with repair drones than with auto turrets (even though the repair drone is badly designed and should be removed), i'll stop trying to explain it since your only point appears to be ''but the pro aren't using it" (especially considering the pros aren't using the raven as a whole because the two other spells are extremely bad, repair drone-PDD-old seeker ravens would be incredibly imbalanced).
|
On January 14 2018 11:39 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 11:02 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 14 2018 03:59 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen. And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous... It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"... How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel. So yeah, you're a whiner. I did not post the OP. I did not whine about Cyclone AA being a "complete joke." Click on the "Show nested quote" line and reread the original post that started this entire conversation. See the name there? It is not pvsnp. It is Psychobabas. I did not enter this conversation until you compared Cyclone AA to Queen AA and suggested Queens needed a buff. I called that a "horrendous analogy," because Cyclones are not Queens. "Cyclone is not Queen" is the entire point of my post. Nothing about balance, or about nerfs, or buffs, or whatever. Just the fact that two units in the game are completely different, fulfilling completely different roles in completely different situations. Zero whine. Go accuse somebody else. Oh sorry you're used to do some many posts like these i haven't seen for once it's not yours. Still, cyclon isn't queen remains a stupid argument... Hey, ultras with 8 armors are fine, they're not marines, the two units in the game are completly different. See ? It's a stupid way to argue. No problem, I usually assume Zerg whine comes from you too. The only thing stupid about my argument is how you are trying to apply it. Proposing a Queen AA buff after OP complained about Cyclone AA makes no sense. Because they are completely disconnected in that context. Whether or not Cyclone AA should be buffed has absolutely nothing to do with how similar its AA DPS is with Queen AA DPS, because the interaction of “Cylcone vs air unit" is completely disconnected from the interaction of “Queen vs air unit." The fact that neither Cyclones nor Queens are air units means the "Cyclone vs Queen" interaction has nothing to do with the conversation. What I said has nothing to do with balance. It wasn’t a justification for a buff/nerf, it has no bearing on whether or not Cyclones should actually be buffed/nerfed or not. I was just pointing out that Queens don’t belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is logical. Ultras and Marines are completely different units, that’s true. But buffing Ultra armor to 8 will have a direct impact on the “Ultra vs Marine” interaction. So the fact that they are completely different units doesn’t matter here, because they interact directly and buffing one is an indirect nerf to the other. Marines absolutely belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is stupid. Simply put: I said Cyclone AA can never hit Queens ---> Leave Queens out of this (Logical) You said Ultras hit Marines ---> Leave Marines out of this (Stupid)
I'm not asking for queens buff i'm just ironic about the fact you or he says AA of cyclon is too weak.
And i'm talking about ultras and marines only to point out how this kind of argumentation can be used to say something stupid.
|
auto-turrets are cancer in tvt, thats their biggest impact... better replace repair drone with PDD.
|
Pretty crazy to me that Hydra's get their 10hp buff for free, which having an army of 30 hydras compounds to 300 bonus health the army otherwise didn't have, but the idea of giving combat shield to marines for free right out of the gate is ludicrous and would never be done. So what if it makes proxy rax too strong, terran needs some aggressive options to keep the other races honest. At the very least it could be combined with stimpack. Bio really needs some love, mech is just so boring to play every single game.
For an experimental thought, we could look at building fly time as a place to buff. This could help terran shave a few seconds off expanding, off of swapping buildings, it could make proxy barracks play a little more viable.. Overlord speed gets buffed in the early game, i see no reason not to consider terran building move speed as an avenue to look at. Over the course of a game the second or so shaved off each time swapping buildings around could see itself manifest in a slightly stronger terran compared to now. Not to mention with even with a sensor tower up there just literally isn't enough time to lift off an orbital and get it to safety from hydras if you're out of position, and mech can't defend everywhere on bigger maps like NVS. Just a thought.
|
On January 13 2018 20:28 MiCroLiFe wrote:
and those who complain about turret harass.. Come on? Put a spore there, put a qeen there. its not that hard.. Drops is tvz is almost gone theese days. we need somthing to harass whit..
The frustrating thing about turret harass is that is virtually risk-free for Terran. As Zerg you just cannot hit the raven, and you know turrets will come again an again. This is a bad design.
Blizzard should reduce the casting range and/or the attack range, and then balance the dps accordingly.
|
Oh no, I love the repair drone, it made me go back to playing terran, I hope they keep it in the game.
|
On January 14 2018 21:52 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:
auto-turrets are cancer in tvt, thats their biggest impact... better replace repair drone with PDD.
I agree it s too safe and annoying, but if it can stop the mass cyclone 
|
On January 14 2018 19:40 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 18:16 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs. Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though. And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game. Ravens and auto-turret harass used to be the go-to opening in TvZ. You saw them basically every game. Whereas repair drones are barely ever seen. If you think repair drones are so strong why don't pros ever use them? Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to someone as divorced from reality as you are. You really mastered the art of missing the point. The question isn't how good the turret is, but how good the raven is as a caster and how well it fits the role it needs to fit. But since you seem competely oblivious to the fact that ravens as a late game unit are stronger with repair drones than with auto turrets (even though the repair drone is badly designed and should be removed), i'll stop trying to explain it since your only point appears to be ''but the pro aren't using it" (especially considering the pros aren't using the raven as a whole because the two other spells are extremely bad, repair drone-PDD-old seeker ravens would be incredibly imbalanced).
You don't have a point. All you've been doing is dogmatically asserting that repair drones are good without a shred of evidence when players like TY or MajOr (who admittedly are quite biased) have called the ability worthless.
|
On January 14 2018 19:40 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 18:16 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 09:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 09:23 JackONeill wrote:On January 14 2018 08:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 14 2018 08:34 JackONeill wrote:
So they replace repair drone with autoturret instead of PDD (which is MUCH MORE needed for the raven to fill its role). Riiight.
Funny thing is that this change will actually make the raven weaker. Do you even play this game?!? The repair drone is mostly useless whereas the auto-turret is a very powerful harass tool. How on earth does this make the raven weaker? You're underestimating the power of massing repair drones. 2 repair drones per raven when you have high HP units is very strong. That was pretty much the only use of the raven in the late game. Now don't get me wrong i've ranted forever on how terrible the repair drone is design-wise, but it's stronger than the auto turret ; and more importantly, the PDD is still lacking. Funny how every single pro player disagrees with you entirely. Auto-turrets were fantastic harass which usually got a handful of drone kills in a game. Repair drones have some fringe use in the late game and repair at the rate of 2.5 SCVs. Quoting pro opinions doesn't work like that buddy. Nice try though. And if you don't get how strong the repair drone is (even though it's badly designed), i'm thinking you're the one not playing this game. Ravens and auto-turret harass used to be the go-to opening in TvZ. You saw them basically every game. Whereas repair drones are barely ever seen. If you think repair drones are so strong why don't pros ever use them? Not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to someone as divorced from reality as you are. You really mastered the art of missing the point. The question isn't how good the turret is, but how good the raven is as a caster and how well it fits the role it needs to fit. But since you seem competely oblivious to the fact that ravens as a late game unit are stronger with repair drones than with auto turrets (even though the repair drone is badly designed and should be removed), i'll stop trying to explain it since your only point appears to be ''but the pro aren't using it" (especially considering the pros aren't using the raven as a whole because the two other spells are extremely bad, repair drone-PDD-old seeker ravens would be incredibly imbalanced).
To me it seems as if you are only thinking about the late game raven. The ravens with the auto turret harass that got 15 drone kills each as a median are, in my opinion, better. Terran players used ravens in every match-up because auto turrets had so much utility.
Playing vs another terran? Summon turrets to kill tanks or defend vs banshees.
Playing vs protoss? Turrets kill probes or protoss is forced to make unwanted pheonix to kill the raven.
Playing vs zerg? Turrets kill arond 15 drones before the raven is taken out.
Terran could go raven in every game and often get way more value than its cost. The raven without the turret, but with the repair drone, has not really any worth in the earlier stages of the game. The old raven opened up windows for terrans to attack a weakened foe whil the new one has to wait until the armies are big enough.
The auto turret killed stuff that at a time that made it very impactful. The repair drone might not get used because the game is over too early.
|
On January 14 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 11:39 pvsnp wrote:On January 14 2018 11:02 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 14 2018 03:59 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 19:53 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 17:22 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 17:14 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 08:06 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2018 08:03 Tyrhanius wrote:On January 13 2018 07:59 Psychobabas wrote:
For Terran things that need change:
Battlecruisers
Widow Mines
Banshees (really what is the point of this unit aside from TvT early game, which you can forget about making since every Terran will go to Raven for the autoturret safety net and harrass opportunity).
Cyclone anti-air (complete joke)
If anything, because autoturrets were strong, I will most certainly mass my ravens in late game as I did before. I dont need seeker missile when I can spam 20 turrets in 2 seconds for insane dps.
Banshees are used a lot on TvZ. Cyclon DPS anti-air is the same than queen (with 15 range), buff queen DPS vs air so ? Let me know once cyclones cost 0 gas, can heal other units/buildiungs, spread vision, and boost macro. Horrendous analogy. Banshees are used in TvZ, though, you are right about that. And cyclon has 50DPS vs armor, can be repaired in fight... It shouldn't have any anti air attack considering how strong it is on the ground, but yeah it's a T unit, should have 50 dps vs air too.... Yes, a Cyclone has tons more DPS than a Queen.........meaning it's stupid to compare them at all. Way to miss the very obvious point. I guess all a whiner can see is whine, I mean I was obviously just whining about how Queens are so OP and how Cyclones suck and not in fact talking about what a horrendous analogy you made between queens and cyclones..... That was sarcasm, by the way. Point: CYCLONE IS NOT QUEEN Zerg deals with every air pressure on early game with one unit, queen. And honestly, they do quite well for that, so let me laugh when you tell me that cyclon anti-air is ridiculous... It's completly fine, but of course when terran doesn't have a super OP unit they always pretend they're "weak"... How can you tell that, 30 dps vs ground, 50 vs armored, shoot while moving, 180 hp, dps of a queen with 15 tracking range lel. So yeah, you're a whiner. I did not post the OP. I did not whine about Cyclone AA being a "complete joke." Click on the "Show nested quote" line and reread the original post that started this entire conversation. See the name there? It is not pvsnp. It is Psychobabas. I did not enter this conversation until you compared Cyclone AA to Queen AA and suggested Queens needed a buff. I called that a "horrendous analogy," because Cyclones are not Queens. "Cyclone is not Queen" is the entire point of my post. Nothing about balance, or about nerfs, or buffs, or whatever. Just the fact that two units in the game are completely different, fulfilling completely different roles in completely different situations. Zero whine. Go accuse somebody else. Oh sorry you're used to do some many posts like these i haven't seen for once it's not yours. Still, cyclon isn't queen remains a stupid argument... Hey, ultras with 8 armors are fine, they're not marines, the two units in the game are completly different. See ? It's a stupid way to argue. No problem, I usually assume Zerg whine comes from you too. The only thing stupid about my argument is how you are trying to apply it. Proposing a Queen AA buff after OP complained about Cyclone AA makes no sense. Because they are completely disconnected in that context. Whether or not Cyclone AA should be buffed has absolutely nothing to do with how similar its AA DPS is with Queen AA DPS, because the interaction of “Cylcone vs air unit" is completely disconnected from the interaction of “Queen vs air unit." The fact that neither Cyclones nor Queens are air units means the "Cyclone vs Queen" interaction has nothing to do with the conversation. What I said has nothing to do with balance. It wasn’t a justification for a buff/nerf, it has no bearing on whether or not Cyclones should actually be buffed/nerfed or not. I was just pointing out that Queens don’t belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is logical. Ultras and Marines are completely different units, that’s true. But buffing Ultra armor to 8 will have a direct impact on the “Ultra vs Marine” interaction. So the fact that they are completely different units doesn’t matter here, because they interact directly and buffing one is an indirect nerf to the other. Marines absolutely belong in that conversation, so leaving them out is stupid. Simply put: I said Cyclone AA can never hit Queens ---> Leave Queens out of this (Logical) You said Ultras hit Marines ---> Leave Marines out of this (Stupid) I'm not asking for queens buff i'm just ironic about the fact you or he says AA of cyclon is too weak. And i'm talking about ultras and marines only to point out how this kind of argumentation can be used to say something stupid.
That's good, because Queens don't need a buff. And I said nothing about Cyclone buffs.
Yes, of course the argument can be used to say something stupid if you take it out of context by trying to use it for Ultras and Marines. The original context was Cyclone AA and Queen AA, not Ultras and Marines.
|
Just give the Raven 2-3 extra vision range have that extra range be the special thing about Ravens.
|
Artosis and Tasteless in GSL commented on the Ravens perfectly IMO (During Scarlett vs aLive) Sure you can sink your gas into the battlecruiser liberator or ghost but the Raven is the Terrans main spellcasting unit you wanna have your gas sink into.
|
Geez, I'm really bummed that the Stalker was "taken away". I'm not a pro player, I won't lose any money over it, but it was making the game playable for me. A bit subjective, but wanted to give my two cents.
RIP Stalker.
|
On January 15 2018 07:25 Ryu3600 wrote:
Artosis and Tasteless in GSL commented on the Ravens perfectly IMO (During Scarlett vs aLive) Sure you can sink your gas into the battlecruiser liberator or ghost but the Raven is the Terrans main spellcasting unit you wanna have your gas sink into.
They actually said that the Raven *was* the unit to sink gas into, but now there is no real good option.
|
|
|
No, what about... DEFENSIVE MATRIX.
|
On January 14 2018 18:40 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2018 18:36 Charoisaur wrote:On January 14 2018 10:06 -Kyo- wrote:
10 seconds?
i dont think people realize how good 6 seconds already is. 10 seconds vs protoss is insanity especially for the energy cost.
stalker... id need to play with first to have a full opinion on, disruptor obviously needs a change as no1 is using it at all, adepts ? not sure they really need a change, happy about the hydra change. Atm the ability is completely useless because it lasts such a short time that it's always better to have more attacking units instead. You deny 2-3 rounds of attacks with them and then your ravens are flying paperweights. Only exception is siege tanks because of how important it is to close the distance vs them. I doubt 10 seconds makes them worth building in any other matchup either. I think it has an okay chance of wrecking TvT though. Cyclone/Raven/Hellion every game new meta? It might actually turn out to be playable in TvP eventually (though obviously not currently where pure gateway bullies terran really hard).
New raven was already quite good vs banshee and fast medivac builds now with longer lockdown and turrets instead of drones I think it will be a defining unit in the tvt metagame like it was pre nerfs, it won't win you early Viking fights any more but it will give you a very safe very stable way to open.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
