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On December 08 2017 17:09 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 17:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:51 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:35 -Kyo- wrote:ROFL, these protoss changes are absolutely hilarious On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay u should know how much of an investment that is... -_- he thought he could defend without pulling workers, he didnt -_- sure it's awful gameplay, but to basically nerf everything that was even patched to toss in the first place is like almost nonsensical Actually, I think with the new disrupter, building a single turret in the mineral line is even better than before because it means toss has to drop outside of the mineral line, meaning you can just move one scv in front of the shot. However I haven't played it yet because disrupter drop builds are already a large investment and are a rare build. I also don't see how it is any different from say a widowmine drop except being a larger investment lol. Think of an expensive widow mine that fires instantly deals 145 damage and can get picked up from six range. You avoided my question. I'm going to sleepers now.
I assumed you were being intentionally obtuse and thus it wasn't worth answering. But if you were being serious...
On December 08 2017 16:31 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 16:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:21 youngjiddle wrote:
Toss does something awesome
Awful gameplay xD xD xD The way the opponent has absolutely no chance whatsoever to react is definitely awesome too I take it. Are you implying that the warp prism that barely slipped past the marines could not have been stopped in anyway?
The problem is obviously that you can't react to the shot once the disruptor has landed. For basically any other form of harassment there's at least some leisure to react if you failed to prevent the drop from happening. Not so for the disruptor which can just drop on top of the units instagib them and leave immediately. The widow mine has an attack delay precisely for that reason. Baneling drops are the most similar thing to it I guess, but there's a huge rift in the mobility and versatility of disruptor drops (before this change) and bane drops.
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On December 08 2017 16:57 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 16:51 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:35 -Kyo- wrote:ROFL, these protoss changes are absolutely hilarious On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeTolerantOryxSquadGoals u should know how much of an investment that is... -_- he thought he could defend without pulling workers, he didnt -_- sure it's awful gameplay, but to basically nerf everything that was even patched to toss in the first place is like almost nonsensical Actually, I think with the new disrupter, building a single turret in the mineral line is even better than before because it means toss has to drop outside of the mineral line, meaning you can just move one scv in front of the shot. However I haven't played it yet because disrupter drop builds are already a large investment and are a rare build. I also don't see how it is any different from say a widowmine drop except being a larger investment lol. That isn't even the main strategical counterpoint. The biggest factor, which you can clearly see in the game clip she linked is that the army value of the protoss is shit during that startup phase. So, they have to be microing well; and moreover, if you look at what he is building, he literally starts a colo, and like 1 sentry during that whole 30 seconds. These sorts of builds have their ups and downs, and to just say that because he got 5 scv kills and killed a building turret is the pinnacle of shit gameplay, idk. Personally, I don't like the new disruptor myself, but at least lets try this stuff for more than like 30 days of 'off season' gameplay.
shit gameplay is being able to do consistent damage with 0 risk, yes; it feels miserable playing against it (whether or not it is in fact balanced)
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On December 08 2017 17:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 17:09 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 17:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:51 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:35 -Kyo- wrote:ROFL, these protoss changes are absolutely hilarious On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeTolerantOryxSquadGoals u should know how much of an investment that is... -_- he thought he could defend without pulling workers, he didnt -_- sure it's awful gameplay, but to basically nerf everything that was even patched to toss in the first place is like almost nonsensical Actually, I think with the new disrupter, building a single turret in the mineral line is even better than before because it means toss has to drop outside of the mineral line, meaning you can just move one scv in front of the shot. However I haven't played it yet because disrupter drop builds are already a large investment and are a rare build. I also don't see how it is any different from say a widowmine drop except being a larger investment lol. Think of an expensive widow mine that fires instantly deals 145 damage and can get picked up from six range. You avoided my question. I'm going to sleepers now. I assumed you were being intentionally obtuse and thus it wasn't worth answering. But if you were being serious... Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 16:31 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:21 youngjiddle wrote:
Toss does something awesome
Awful gameplay xD xD xD The way the opponent has absolutely no chance whatsoever to react is definitely awesome too I take it. Are you implying that the warp prism that barely slipped past the marines could not have been stopped in anyway? The problem is obviously that you can't react to the shot once the disruptor has landed. For basically any other form of harassment there's at least some leisure to react if you failed to prevent the drop from happening. Not so for the disruptor which can just drop on top of the units instagib them and leave immediately. The widow mine has an attack delay precisely for that reason. Baneling drops are the most similar thing to it I guess, but there's a huge rift in the mobility and versatility of disruptor drops (before this change) and bane drops.
However the bane drops are capable of erasing whole mineral line wheras disruptor drop will kill 3-6 workers not more.
I agree that there is little to do for defenders once the disruptor lands in the mineral line - however it is hardly inbalanced imho. The investment costs + actual dmg you can do with it - is fine.
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On December 08 2017 15:11 SHODAN wrote:
terran player perspective:
unimaginative changes which don't address the core design issues.
agree with the disruptor nerf
agree with the oracle nerf
strongly disagree with the chrono and stalker nerfs. it's the wrong approach. it messes with ZvP.
the most pressing issues for terran were not addressed:
1) strength of bio
2) micro potential of mech
3) terran anti-air and overlapping roles
universal consensus in the sc2 community that the marauder's single-shot attack should be reinstated.
widespread dissatisfaction with the micro potential of mech. in particular, tornado blaster cyclones.
there is ZERO skill difference between Innovation killing a zealot with a tornado blaster cyclone vs. a platinum league player killing a zealot with a cyclone. no kiting, no scoot and shoot, no nothing. probably the worst unit design in the game...
ground-to-ground lock-on should be reinstated. kiting is fun, a-move is not.
cyclone anti-air damage needs some major buffs. none of this "first 4 shots fire faster" bullshit. make it strong like the early days of LotV. if it's too strong in the early-game, add charon booster AA range upgrade and mag-field accelerator to the techlab.
widespread dissatisfaction with the state of terran anti-air. too much overlap. all of terran's mech AA is clumsy, slow, unmicroable, or hard-countered by one or more Z/P units.
Mech anti-air has been a complaint for years and it's been ignored to an almost provoking level. I doubt they're planning to ever look into it.
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On December 08 2017 08:14 leublix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 07:36 Pursuit_ wrote:
As a Terran player getting destroyed by Protoss atm, I think the stalker change is unnecessary. The real problem is chronoboost, and while this change will help vs all-ins, it wont help vs upgrades or just the flexibility of the spell, so I'm not certain it alone will be enough. I'd rather they keep the Stalker as is and nerf Chrono's actual % increase a little harder, down to ~20% (currently ~25% both pre- a.[/nd post- nerf). Of course it helps with upgrades. Before you could half the time of the upgrades with chrono boost. Now you can only decrease the time to 3/4 of the actual time. Thats big. Agree on the stalkers.
No, upgrades take so long you're limited by energy. It takes 63 seconds for a nexus to get enough energy for a chrono. New chrono and current chrono will be effectively the same as far as upgrades are concerned (~25% increase with 3 nexus). All-ins will be later / weaker, upgrades will be the same. But Terran has already figured out how to hold most all-ins since oracle nerf.
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Most changes seem good/reasonable but the stalker change I feel is too much.
ZvP in early game is already a pain in lower leagues and with this change it will gets even worse.
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On December 08 2017 17:40 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 16:57 -Kyo- wrote:On December 08 2017 16:51 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:35 -Kyo- wrote:ROFL, these protoss changes are absolutely hilarious On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeTolerantOryxSquadGoals u should know how much of an investment that is... -_- he thought he could defend without pulling workers, he didnt -_- sure it's awful gameplay, but to basically nerf everything that was even patched to toss in the first place is like almost nonsensical Actually, I think with the new disrupter, building a single turret in the mineral line is even better than before because it means toss has to drop outside of the mineral line, meaning you can just move one scv in front of the shot. However I haven't played it yet because disrupter drop builds are already a large investment and are a rare build. I also don't see how it is any different from say a widowmine drop except being a larger investment lol. That isn't even the main strategical counterpoint. The biggest factor, which you can clearly see in the game clip she linked is that the army value of the protoss is shit during that startup phase. So, they have to be microing well; and moreover, if you look at what he is building, he literally starts a colo, and like 1 sentry during that whole 30 seconds. These sorts of builds have their ups and downs, and to just say that because he got 5 scv kills and killed a building turret is the pinnacle of shit gameplay, idk. Personally, I don't like the new disruptor myself, but at least lets try this stuff for more than like 30 days of 'off season' gameplay. shit gameplay is being able to do consistent damage with 0 risk, yes; it feels miserable playing against it (whether or not it is in fact balanced)
i literally told you the risk of playing this style in my post.
i mean lets be honest here, do you think people enjoy playing the styles of protoss we had to play in the past just to be competitive?
and lets not be hyperbolic, as you clearly see in the game vikings easily chase away the WP. now, when is building them or if they are the right response? idk? im not a top 16 gm KR terran player and im not gonna sit here and pretend to be one.
but to throw your hands up in the air and just say "well, that fucking warp prism pick up range with a disruptor is dumb" when he literally flies the thing into the guys main mineral line, the dude doesnt move anything, and then literally just proceeds to fly out seems to scream more about being out of position and unprepared than anything else.
what you're talking about is more the fundamental ideology of how you 'think' a race is supposed to be played, or how you are 'supposed' to play against it. if you are unhappy with that, that is your own problem and not one with the game itself.
i will grant you that there is, of course, clear examples where this is shit for the game all around like BL infestor in WoL. it is something that was abysmal to play and to view. and there are more like that. but there is nothing inherently "shit" about a WP with an early disruptor other than the fact that you apparently dont like finding new ways to fight against it because it is different than before, at least, as it stands NOW.
look, as i mentioned, i am not really happy with the disruptor myself, but that doesnt change the fact that people are reeling over changes that have been around for ~month and not even been tested against counter builds that are being played in WCS level tournaments. i mean you should know, you're a high level zerg, there is an always evolving meta on the KR server. if people basically opened 100% of their games with WP disruptor and proceeded to win something like ~65%+ of them while the other person was completely failing to defend that initial pressure after X amount of time in tournaments then i'd totally be behind you; that just isnt the case.
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On December 08 2017 17:56 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 17:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 17:09 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 17:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:51 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:35 -Kyo- wrote:ROFL, these protoss changes are absolutely hilarious On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeTolerantOryxSquadGoals u should know how much of an investment that is... -_- he thought he could defend without pulling workers, he didnt -_- sure it's awful gameplay, but to basically nerf everything that was even patched to toss in the first place is like almost nonsensical Actually, I think with the new disrupter, building a single turret in the mineral line is even better than before because it means toss has to drop outside of the mineral line, meaning you can just move one scv in front of the shot. However I haven't played it yet because disrupter drop builds are already a large investment and are a rare build. I also don't see how it is any different from say a widowmine drop except being a larger investment lol. Think of an expensive widow mine that fires instantly deals 145 damage and can get picked up from six range. You avoided my question. I'm going to sleepers now. I assumed you were being intentionally obtuse and thus it wasn't worth answering. But if you were being serious... On December 08 2017 16:31 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:21 youngjiddle wrote:
Toss does something awesome
Awful gameplay xD xD xD The way the opponent has absolutely no chance whatsoever to react is definitely awesome too I take it. Are you implying that the warp prism that barely slipped past the marines could not have been stopped in anyway? The problem is obviously that you can't react to the shot once the disruptor has landed. For basically any other form of harassment there's at least some leisure to react if you failed to prevent the drop from happening. Not so for the disruptor which can just drop on top of the units instagib them and leave immediately. The widow mine has an attack delay precisely for that reason. Baneling drops are the most similar thing to it I guess, but there's a huge rift in the mobility and versatility of disruptor drops (before this change) and bane drops. However the bane drops are capable of erasing whole mineral line wheras disruptor drop will kill 3-6 workers not more. I agree that there is little to do for defenders once the disruptor lands in the mineral line - however it is hardly inbalanced imho. The investment costs + actual dmg you can do with is fine.
It's still unhealthy regardless of whether it's balanced or not. Adding a delay also helps reduce the amount of the "game ending moments" that Blizzard doesn't want.
Incidentally I wonder how the stalker change affects ZvP. While it's a huge nerf against terran, you do kill zerglings faster early on in ZvP which might help?
The weapon upgrades nerf for stalkers seems unnecessarily hasty of a change to make. Though maybe the balance team too feels pressured by all these sudden qualifiers.
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On December 08 2017 18:04 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 17:40 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 16:57 -Kyo- wrote:On December 08 2017 16:51 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:35 -Kyo- wrote:ROFL, these protoss changes are absolutely hilarious On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeTolerantOryxSquadGoals u should know how much of an investment that is... -_- he thought he could defend without pulling workers, he didnt -_- sure it's awful gameplay, but to basically nerf everything that was even patched to toss in the first place is like almost nonsensical Actually, I think with the new disrupter, building a single turret in the mineral line is even better than before because it means toss has to drop outside of the mineral line, meaning you can just move one scv in front of the shot. However I haven't played it yet because disrupter drop builds are already a large investment and are a rare build. I also don't see how it is any different from say a widowmine drop except being a larger investment lol. That isn't even the main strategical counterpoint. The biggest factor, which you can clearly see in the game clip she linked is that the army value of the protoss is shit during that startup phase. So, they have to be microing well; and moreover, if you look at what he is building, he literally starts a colo, and like 1 sentry during that whole 30 seconds. These sorts of builds have their ups and downs, and to just say that because he got 5 scv kills and killed a building turret is the pinnacle of shit gameplay, idk. Personally, I don't like the new disruptor myself, but at least lets try this stuff for more than like 30 days of 'off season' gameplay. shit gameplay is being able to do consistent damage with 0 risk, yes; it feels miserable playing against it (whether or not it is in fact balanced) i literally told you the risk of playing this style in my post. i mean lets be honest here, do you think people enjoy playing the styles of protoss we had to play in the past just to be competitive? and lets not be hyperbolic, as you clearly see in the game vikings easily chase away the WP. now, when is building them or if they are the right response? idk? im not a top 16 gm KR terran player and im not gonna sit here and pretend to be one. but to throw your hands up in the air and just say "well, that fucking warp prism pick up range with a disruptor is dumb" when he literally flies the thing into the guys main mineral line, the dude doesnt move anything, and then literally just proceeds to fly out seems to scream more about being out of position and unprepared than anything else. what you're talking about is more the fundamental ideology of how you 'think' a race is supposed to be played, or how you are 'supposed' to play against it. if you are unhappy with that, that is your own problem and not one with the game itself. i will grant you that there is, of course, clear examples where this is shit for the game all around like BL infestor in WoL. it is something that was abysmal to play and to view. and there are more like that. but there is nothing inherently "shit" about a WP with an early disruptor other than the fact that you apparently dont like finding new ways to fight against it because it is different than before, at least, as it stands NOW. look, as i mentioned, i am not really happy with the disruptor myself, but that doesnt change the fact that people are reeling over changes that have been around for ~month and not even been tested against counter builds that are being played in WCS level tournaments. i mean you should know, you're a high level zerg, there is an always evolving meta on the KR server. if people basically opened 100% of their games with WP disruptor and proceeded to win something like ~65%+ of them while the other person was completely failing to defend that initial pressure after X amount of time in tournaments then i'd totally be behind you; that just isnt the case.
Do not Protoss players complain about Baneling Drops same way? Even if they literally has to fly in over the mineral line through all base defences? And it's much slower than waprism.
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On December 08 2017 18:14 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 18:04 -Kyo- wrote:On December 08 2017 17:40 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 16:57 -Kyo- wrote:On December 08 2017 16:51 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:35 -Kyo- wrote:ROFL, these protoss changes are absolutely hilarious On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeTolerantOryxSquadGoals u should know how much of an investment that is... -_- he thought he could defend without pulling workers, he didnt -_- sure it's awful gameplay, but to basically nerf everything that was even patched to toss in the first place is like almost nonsensical Actually, I think with the new disrupter, building a single turret in the mineral line is even better than before because it means toss has to drop outside of the mineral line, meaning you can just move one scv in front of the shot. However I haven't played it yet because disrupter drop builds are already a large investment and are a rare build. I also don't see how it is any different from say a widowmine drop except being a larger investment lol. That isn't even the main strategical counterpoint. The biggest factor, which you can clearly see in the game clip she linked is that the army value of the protoss is shit during that startup phase. So, they have to be microing well; and moreover, if you look at what he is building, he literally starts a colo, and like 1 sentry during that whole 30 seconds. These sorts of builds have their ups and downs, and to just say that because he got 5 scv kills and killed a building turret is the pinnacle of shit gameplay, idk. Personally, I don't like the new disruptor myself, but at least lets try this stuff for more than like 30 days of 'off season' gameplay. shit gameplay is being able to do consistent damage with 0 risk, yes; it feels miserable playing against it (whether or not it is in fact balanced) i literally told you the risk of playing this style in my post. i mean lets be honest here, do you think people enjoy playing the styles of protoss we had to play in the past just to be competitive? and lets not be hyperbolic, as you clearly see in the game vikings easily chase away the WP. now, when is building them or if they are the right response? idk? im not a top 16 gm KR terran player and im not gonna sit here and pretend to be one. but to throw your hands up in the air and just say "well, that fucking warp prism pick up range with a disruptor is dumb" when he literally flies the thing into the guys main mineral line, the dude doesnt move anything, and then literally just proceeds to fly out seems to scream more about being out of position and unprepared than anything else. what you're talking about is more the fundamental ideology of how you 'think' a race is supposed to be played, or how you are 'supposed' to play against it. if you are unhappy with that, that is your own problem and not one with the game itself. i will grant you that there is, of course, clear examples where this is shit for the game all around like BL infestor in WoL. it is something that was abysmal to play and to view. and there are more like that. but there is nothing inherently "shit" about a WP with an early disruptor other than the fact that you apparently dont like finding new ways to fight against it because it is different than before, at least, as it stands NOW. look, as i mentioned, i am not really happy with the disruptor myself, but that doesnt change the fact that people are reeling over changes that have been around for ~month and not even been tested against counter builds that are being played in WCS level tournaments. i mean you should know, you're a high level zerg, there is an always evolving meta on the KR server. if people basically opened 100% of their games with WP disruptor and proceeded to win something like ~65%+ of them while the other person was completely failing to defend that initial pressure after X amount of time in tournaments then i'd totally be behind you; that just isnt the case. Do not Protoss players complain about Baneling Drops same way? Even if they literally has to fly in over the mineral line through all base defences? And it's much slower than waprism.
Yeah they do, but Blizzard hasn't nerfed baneling drops or shown the slightest inclination to do so (rightfully so), so the situation isn't analogous.
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On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeTolerantOryxSquadGoals
ROFL. That clip. Yeah, Protoss is pretty strong still. These changes should make TvsP a little more balanced.
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On December 08 2017 08:01 Boggyb wrote:
Zerg is OP in both ZvP and ZvT but no nerfs? ZvP win rates are probably going to hit 57-58% if not higher.
In which world is Zerg OP vs Protoss? Not in the pro world, that's for sure! Look at recent results especially in korean tournaments and cups, especially since Z got massively nerfed with the burrowed fungal removal and fungal radius + inf terrans range reduction.
In fact, Protoss is massively OP in both matchups vs Z and T at the moment. That's what most pro Players - and even Protoss Players - say.
I think the current changes go completely in the right direction.
TvZ is the most balanced matchup, though Z still has to struggle against Terra Mech, and the new changes won't change much in this matchup.
In TvP, the widow mine und raven changes combined with chrono and stalker nerf will possibly make this matchup playable again.
In ZvP, well it's hard to say if the chrono nerf and disruptor change will be enough to balance it out again.
But as said above, at least it's the right direction. I'm really looking forward to see the next tourneys after the patch!
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Maybe they should look at bio TvZ ? the most imba MU.
Also, why they first nerf the stalker before even getting back the old marauder ? Please. (well it's true 2/2 stalkers was way too good, probably the +2 upgrade thing ). Bring. Back. The. Old. Marauder. One that dosen't scale miserably with upgrades.
Finally, dunno why some people whine crazy about toss not being let OP for 6 months before nerfs. We are just after a design patch. They are always frequent balance change after a design patch, it was expected.
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The double standard imposed on balance changes has already become a problem of repetitive bias. Despite whether "allow time for the meta to settle" or "let the player figure it out" is actually helping the global balance, nerfing/altering a race much more frequently than doing so to another race is at least seemingly problematic, no to mention the actually effect on the global balance is open to debate. Yet Blizzard keeps relying on such pattern in disregard of protest and warning from the community. The continuum of such balancing policy will ultimately challenge the patience of the community to the extent that very few people genuinely give a fuck about what Blizzard does, how Blizzard does it and why Blizzard does it - that may be the time when people lose the faith in SC2.
Before the scenario reaches such severe state, there are genuine questions for Blizzard: what is the position taken by the balance team regarding in-game race priority, and how does the team justify it?
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On December 08 2017 18:48 xongnox wrote:
Maybe they should look at bio TvZ ? the most imba MU.
Hm, I can't see it like that. It's just that Terra was so used to play bio in every MU. Now Terra has to vary playstyles. And I believe, that's one of the major intentions of the design patch. I admit, that it's quite hard to work out new approaches like playing mech with small bio drops or something else on the highest levels, but I'm absolutely confident, the korean pro players will soon come up with some interesting ideas 
Finally, dunno why some people whine crazy about toss not being let OP for 6 months before nerfs. We are just after a design patch. They are always frequent balance change after a design patch, it was expected.
I totally agree with that. The design patch completely shook up the meta. And that was it's purpose.
But of course you have to do some quick fine adjustments after such a heavy blow...
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On December 08 2017 08:32 Charoisaur wrote:
The main thing that needs to be fixed about the game (design-wise not balance-wise) are mass air battles but for some reason the devs refuse to adress or even acknowledge this is a problem.
What are they gonna do? Change their pathing fundamentally?
I guess after all the best way to go about it would be to nerf the "capital ships" into the ground so long games don't devolve into them.
Either that or add more and more anti air AoE.
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Too many nerfs for Protoss imo.
Chrono change seems really good. But Stalkers doing less damge should be enough, they should still get +2 with upgrades. Or just make the upgrades less strong and keep the stalker at 15, but both at once?
I'll have to see the disruptor change in games first.
Seriously I don't play Protoss, but it just seems like too much at once. Terran whining at it's best again :/. They should make the marauder better by giving it a single attack again instead of nerfing Stalkers that much.
Anyway I hope they won't start reverting everything again. Buff more instead of nerf more imo (except air to ground, don't buff air  ).
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On December 08 2017 18:07 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 17:56 egrimm wrote:On December 08 2017 17:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 17:09 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 17:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:51 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:35 -Kyo- wrote:ROFL, these protoss changes are absolutely hilarious On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeTolerantOryxSquadGoals u should know how much of an investment that is... -_- he thought he could defend without pulling workers, he didnt -_- sure it's awful gameplay, but to basically nerf everything that was even patched to toss in the first place is like almost nonsensical Actually, I think with the new disrupter, building a single turret in the mineral line is even better than before because it means toss has to drop outside of the mineral line, meaning you can just move one scv in front of the shot. However I haven't played it yet because disrupter drop builds are already a large investment and are a rare build. I also don't see how it is any different from say a widowmine drop except being a larger investment lol. Think of an expensive widow mine that fires instantly deals 145 damage and can get picked up from six range. You avoided my question. I'm going to sleepers now. I assumed you were being intentionally obtuse and thus it wasn't worth answering. But if you were being serious... On December 08 2017 16:31 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:21 youngjiddle wrote:
Toss does something awesome
Awful gameplay xD xD xD The way the opponent has absolutely no chance whatsoever to react is definitely awesome too I take it. Are you implying that the warp prism that barely slipped past the marines could not have been stopped in anyway? The problem is obviously that you can't react to the shot once the disruptor has landed. For basically any other form of harassment there's at least some leisure to react if you failed to prevent the drop from happening. Not so for the disruptor which can just drop on top of the units instagib them and leave immediately. The widow mine has an attack delay precisely for that reason. Baneling drops are the most similar thing to it I guess, but there's a huge rift in the mobility and versatility of disruptor drops (before this change) and bane drops. However the bane drops are capable of erasing whole mineral line wheras disruptor drop will kill 3-6 workers not more. I agree that there is little to do for defenders once the disruptor lands in the mineral line - however it is hardly inbalanced imho. The investment costs + actual dmg you can do with is fine. It's still unhealthy regardless of whether it's balanced or not. Adding a delay also helps reduce the amount of the "game ending moments" that Blizzard doesn't want. Incidentally I wonder how the stalker change affects ZvP. While it's a huge nerf against terran, you do kill zerglings faster early on in ZvP which might help? The weapon upgrades nerf for stalkers seems unnecessarily hasty of a change to make. Though maybe the balance team too feels pressured by all these sudden qualifiers.
I am more afraid of early roach/ravager + proxy hatch cheeses than ling floods in regards of that change.
It is already hard without msc and stalker nerf might make it even harder.
The 1 sec delay will have bigger impact on hitting bio balls (especially with stim) than the worker lines imho.
Still it is not as big of a deal - not many people open fast prism+disruptor in PvT as blink openers are so much better (I did I try both).
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On December 08 2017 15:11 SHODAN wrote:
terran player perspective:
unimaginative changes which don't address the core design issues.
agree with the disruptor nerf
agree with the oracle nerf
strongly disagree with the chrono and stalker nerfs. it's the wrong approach. it messes with ZvP.
the most pressing issues for terran were not addressed:
1) strength of bio
2) micro potential of mech
3) terran anti-air and overlapping roles
universal consensus in the sc2 community that the marauder's single-shot attack should be reinstated.
widespread dissatisfaction with the micro potential of mech. in particular, tornado blaster cyclones.
there is ZERO skill difference between Innovation killing a zealot with a tornado blaster cyclone vs. a platinum league player killing a zealot with a cyclone. no kiting, no scoot and shoot, no nothing. probably the worst unit design in the game...
ground-to-ground lock-on should be reinstated. kiting is fun, a-move is not.
cyclone anti-air damage needs some major buffs. none of this "first 4 shots fire faster" bullshit. make it strong like the early days of LotV. if it's too strong in the early-game, add charon booster AA range upgrade and mag-field accelerator to the techlab.
widespread dissatisfaction with the state of terran anti-air. too much overlap. all of terran's mech AA is clumsy, slow, unmicroable, or hard-countered by one or more Z/P units.
Well, that's what mech is, a bunch of slow high damage units. The whole game in a mech vs Zerg is about Terran trying to get helions to mineral lines and it all ends with 1 big battle.
On top of that mechers ask for the removal of swarm hosts and you're asking for even more antiair, as if 1 thor shutting down any mutalisk play wasn't enough.
Asking for more microable units when you basicaly force zergs into a no micro gameplay is ironic at least.
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On December 08 2017 17:56 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 17:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 17:09 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 17:03 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:51 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:35 -Kyo- wrote:ROFL, these protoss changes are absolutely hilarious On December 08 2017 16:15 Scarlett` wrote:On December 08 2017 15:53 iMrising wrote:
1. Doing them all at once is too fast. It feels like blizzard is too trigger happy
2. I really don't understand the disruptor changes and I encourage anyone who disagrees with me to talk with me, but it definitely feels nerfed beyond oblivion. because this is awful gameplay https://clips.twitch.tv/GlutenFreeTolerantOryxSquadGoals u should know how much of an investment that is... -_- he thought he could defend without pulling workers, he didnt -_- sure it's awful gameplay, but to basically nerf everything that was even patched to toss in the first place is like almost nonsensical Actually, I think with the new disrupter, building a single turret in the mineral line is even better than before because it means toss has to drop outside of the mineral line, meaning you can just move one scv in front of the shot. However I haven't played it yet because disrupter drop builds are already a large investment and are a rare build. I also don't see how it is any different from say a widowmine drop except being a larger investment lol. Think of an expensive widow mine that fires instantly deals 145 damage and can get picked up from six range. You avoided my question. I'm going to sleepers now. I assumed you were being intentionally obtuse and thus it wasn't worth answering. But if you were being serious... On December 08 2017 16:31 youngjiddle wrote:On December 08 2017 16:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2017 16:21 youngjiddle wrote:
Toss does something awesome
Awful gameplay xD xD xD The way the opponent has absolutely no chance whatsoever to react is definitely awesome too I take it. Are you implying that the warp prism that barely slipped past the marines could not have been stopped in anyway? The problem is obviously that you can't react to the shot once the disruptor has landed. For basically any other form of harassment there's at least some leisure to react if you failed to prevent the drop from happening. Not so for the disruptor which can just drop on top of the units instagib them and leave immediately. The widow mine has an attack delay precisely for that reason. Baneling drops are the most similar thing to it I guess, but there's a huge rift in the mobility and versatility of disruptor drops (before this change) and bane drops. However the bane drops are capable of erasing whole mineral line wheras disruptor drop will kill 3-6 workers not more. I agree that there is little to do for defenders once the disruptor lands in the mineral line - however it is hardly inbalanced imho. The investment costs + actual dmg you can do with it - is fine.
Except that warp prisms are twice as fast as droper lords and banelings die when they attack, while with disruptors drop you kill workers for free and leave unharmed.
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EPT
