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On October 31 2017 02:26 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 02:19 Fango wrote:On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 30 2017 14:12 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 10:24 engesser1 wrote:
Overrated Neeb and underrated Major, as usual. Neeb wasn't overrated. He was by far the best non-Korean in the world and proved that by winning literally 3/4ths of the WCS Circuit events. SpeCial wasn't underrated unless you think it makes sense that he fails to make it to the playoffs of the last WCS circuit event but then makes the ro8 at WCS Global finals. In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance. Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are. That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses. It's not really an excuse. bo3 series by default have a greater chance for an upset/the lesser player is more likely to win. That is very true, and there is no doubt that helped and has helped foreigners win. However, it does seem like the talk shifted from "foreigners only being able to beat Koreans in bo1s or online but rarely in an offline series of any length" to "foreigners are only able to beat Koreans because bo3s are too volatile." At some point people will have to stop blaming the format or jet lag or meta changes as the main reasons why foreigners are able to beat top level Koreans.
I fail to see why people keep making excuses for Stats and TY and Dark. The results speak for themselves. They lost.
At the same time, I fail to see why people claim this means the gap has closed. Stats and TY played like complete shit, Dark played decently but still nowhere near his full potential. Anyone who has watched them in top form can easily tell that the "top Koreans" were far from "top Korean level" when they lost to the foreigners.
Stats, TY, and Dark have only themselves to blame. Yes, they lost. No, the foreigners are not at the level of top Koreans.
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Dark lost because ZvZ is the worst matchup to show your skill in midgame.
Dark can match all the P and T, Elazer will just show his jersey and provide bad games in comparison.
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On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 30 2017 14:12 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 10:24 engesser1 wrote:
Overrated Neeb and underrated Major, as usual. Neeb wasn't overrated. He was by far the best non-Korean in the world and proved that by winning literally 3/4ths of the WCS Circuit events. SpeCial wasn't underrated unless you think it makes sense that he fails to make it to the playoffs of the last WCS circuit event but then makes the ro8 at WCS Global finals. In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance. Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are. That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses.
Yeah, what an excuse. Elazer cheeses two times, wins two times. Never had a chance in game 2. ZvZ is fucked up
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On October 31 2017 02:26 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 02:19 Fango wrote:On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 30 2017 14:12 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 10:24 engesser1 wrote:
Overrated Neeb and underrated Major, as usual. Neeb wasn't overrated. He was by far the best non-Korean in the world and proved that by winning literally 3/4ths of the WCS Circuit events. SpeCial wasn't underrated unless you think it makes sense that he fails to make it to the playoffs of the last WCS circuit event but then makes the ro8 at WCS Global finals. In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance. Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are. That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses. It's not really an excuse. bo3 series by default have a greater chance for an upset/the lesser player is more likely to win. That is very true, and there is no doubt that helped and has helped foreigners win. However, it does seem like the talk shifted from "foreigners only being able to beat Koreans in bo1s or online but rarely in an offline series of any length" to "foreigners are only able to beat Koreans because bo3s are too volatile." At some point people will have to stop blaming the format or jet lag or meta changes as the main reasons why foreigners are able to beat top level Koreans.
Of course they are able to beat top koreans. It just becomes more and more unlikely the longer the boX
Foreigners at this point are basically just GSL ro32 players. In a bo3 scenario of course GSL ro32 players could beat a top player with enough attempts. Guys like Gumiho and Rogue have already lost in the ro32 this year
However in a longer series the difference would become obvious
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On October 31 2017 02:26 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 02:19 Fango wrote:On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 30 2017 14:12 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 10:24 engesser1 wrote:
Overrated Neeb and underrated Major, as usual. Neeb wasn't overrated. He was by far the best non-Korean in the world and proved that by winning literally 3/4ths of the WCS Circuit events. SpeCial wasn't underrated unless you think it makes sense that he fails to make it to the playoffs of the last WCS circuit event but then makes the ro8 at WCS Global finals. In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance. Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are. That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses. It's not really an excuse. bo3 series by default have a greater chance for an upset/the lesser player is more likely to win. That is very true, and there is no doubt that helped and has helped foreigners win. However, it does seem like the talk shifted from "foreigners only being able to beat Koreans in bo1s or online but rarely in an offline series of any length" to "foreigners are only able to beat Koreans because bo3s are too volatile." At some point people will have to stop blaming the format or jet lag or meta changes as the main reasons why foreigners are able to beat top level Koreans.
Is that surprising? The number of korean pros is significantly lower than a few years ago, a lot of top players are either retired or past their peak and there are no teamhouses anymore.
The scene is just much less competitive now so obviously foreigners have a better shot at winning.
Also foreigners winning bo3s isn't unheard of, even at the height of the Kespa era Snute/Scarlett/Naniwa won bo3s against top koreans.
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Rofl , just look at the gsl and gsl vs the world.
Without herO's come back ( Elazer should thanks him ) only one foreigner would have made it.
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On October 31 2017 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 02:26 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 02:19 Fango wrote:On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 30 2017 14:12 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 10:24 engesser1 wrote:
Overrated Neeb and underrated Major, as usual. Neeb wasn't overrated. He was by far the best non-Korean in the world and proved that by winning literally 3/4ths of the WCS Circuit events. SpeCial wasn't underrated unless you think it makes sense that he fails to make it to the playoffs of the last WCS circuit event but then makes the ro8 at WCS Global finals. In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance. Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are. That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses. It's not really an excuse. bo3 series by default have a greater chance for an upset/the lesser player is more likely to win. That is very true, and there is no doubt that helped and has helped foreigners win. However, it does seem like the talk shifted from "foreigners only being able to beat Koreans in bo1s or online but rarely in an offline series of any length" to "foreigners are only able to beat Koreans because bo3s are too volatile." At some point people will have to stop blaming the format or jet lag or meta changes as the main reasons why foreigners are able to beat top level Koreans. Is that surprising? The number of korean pros is significantly lower than a few years ago, a lot of top players are either retired or past their peak and there are no teamhouses anymore. The scene is just much less competitive now so obviously foreigners have a better shot at winning. Also foreigners winning bo3s isn't unheard of, even at the height of the Kespa era Snute/Scarlett/Naniwa won bo3s against top koreans.
Except that the foreigners here aren't winning against aLive or Keen. They're winning against the best of the best Koreans. Sure, the overall scene is less competitive, but at the highest level, they as good or better than they were before.
And yes, top foreigners can always take bo3s off of top Koreans, but do they do it all at the same time? Usually it's in one tournament where a foreigner takes off a bo3, but it's rarely that most of the foreigners in single tournament either taking bo3s off of top ten Koreans or making the series competitive.
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Special showed really good things.
Elazer played ZvZ.
With Iem Katowice qualifiers and tournament we saw that even Jjakji is better than the best foreigner.
You are over estimating elazer's performance.
In the only macro game between him and Dark we saw an abysmal skill difference.
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On October 31 2017 04:23 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On October 31 2017 02:26 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 02:19 Fango wrote:On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 30 2017 14:12 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 10:24 engesser1 wrote:
Overrated Neeb and underrated Major, as usual. Neeb wasn't overrated. He was by far the best non-Korean in the world and proved that by winning literally 3/4ths of the WCS Circuit events. SpeCial wasn't underrated unless you think it makes sense that he fails to make it to the playoffs of the last WCS circuit event but then makes the ro8 at WCS Global finals. In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance. Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are. That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses. It's not really an excuse. bo3 series by default have a greater chance for an upset/the lesser player is more likely to win. That is very true, and there is no doubt that helped and has helped foreigners win. However, it does seem like the talk shifted from "foreigners only being able to beat Koreans in bo1s or online but rarely in an offline series of any length" to "foreigners are only able to beat Koreans because bo3s are too volatile." At some point people will have to stop blaming the format or jet lag or meta changes as the main reasons why foreigners are able to beat top level Koreans. Is that surprising? The number of korean pros is significantly lower than a few years ago, a lot of top players are either retired or past their peak and there are no teamhouses anymore. The scene is just much less competitive now so obviously foreigners have a better shot at winning. Also foreigners winning bo3s isn't unheard of, even at the height of the Kespa era Snute/Scarlett/Naniwa won bo3s against top koreans. Except that the foreigners here aren't winning against aLive or Keen. They're winning against the best of the best Koreans. Sure, the overall scene is less competitive, but at the highest level, they as good or better than they were before. And yes, top foreigners can always take bo3s off of top Koreans, but do they do it all at the same time? Usually it's in one tournament where a foreigner takes off a bo3, but it's rarely that most of the foreigners in single tournament either taking bo3s off of top ten Koreans or making the series competitive.
If the best of the best Koreans are playing like shit, are they really the best of the best? Sure, you can say they are only human and having an off day, but that most certainly puts an asterisk next to the foreigners beating them.
TY vs Stats at Blizzcon was a clown fiesta. Nowhere close to the same league as TY vs Stats at Katowice.
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TY and Stats are on a downfall since gsl s2 I have to say.
The real tests are Rogue, herO, INno and Dark ( zvz don't count ).
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Don't you guys find it sad that most of us agree that ZvZs don't count? It shouldn't be like that in a competitive game.
I mean, what could be done to change it? There don't seem to be any changes coming in this area...
Would reducing Baneling damage vs other Zerg units so that they don't one shot lings change anything here?
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On October 31 2017 04:36 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:23 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On October 31 2017 02:26 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 02:19 Fango wrote:On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 30 2017 14:12 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 10:24 engesser1 wrote:
Overrated Neeb and underrated Major, as usual. Neeb wasn't overrated. He was by far the best non-Korean in the world and proved that by winning literally 3/4ths of the WCS Circuit events. SpeCial wasn't underrated unless you think it makes sense that he fails to make it to the playoffs of the last WCS circuit event but then makes the ro8 at WCS Global finals. In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance. Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are. That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses. It's not really an excuse. bo3 series by default have a greater chance for an upset/the lesser player is more likely to win. That is very true, and there is no doubt that helped and has helped foreigners win. However, it does seem like the talk shifted from "foreigners only being able to beat Koreans in bo1s or online but rarely in an offline series of any length" to "foreigners are only able to beat Koreans because bo3s are too volatile." At some point people will have to stop blaming the format or jet lag or meta changes as the main reasons why foreigners are able to beat top level Koreans. Is that surprising? The number of korean pros is significantly lower than a few years ago, a lot of top players are either retired or past their peak and there are no teamhouses anymore. The scene is just much less competitive now so obviously foreigners have a better shot at winning. Also foreigners winning bo3s isn't unheard of, even at the height of the Kespa era Snute/Scarlett/Naniwa won bo3s against top koreans. Except that the foreigners here aren't winning against aLive or Keen. They're winning against the best of the best Koreans. Sure, the overall scene is less competitive, but at the highest level, they as good or better than they were before. And yes, top foreigners can always take bo3s off of top Koreans, but do they do it all at the same time? Usually it's in one tournament where a foreigner takes off a bo3, but it's rarely that most of the foreigners in single tournament either taking bo3s off of top ten Koreans or making the series competitive. If the best of the best Koreans are playing like shit, are they really the best of the best? Sure, you can say they are only human and having an off day, but that most certainly puts an asterisk next to the foreigners beating them. TY vs Stats at Blizzcon was a clown fiesta. Nowhere close to the same league as TY vs Stats at Katowice.
Form definitely varies from time to time, and Stats did look rather lost. I would be down for giving Koreans this benefit of a doubt if we also did that when foreigners underperformed or just lost.
Because the thing is, regardless of whether or not the excuses are legitimate, there are so many ways we excuse the top Koreans for losing to foreigners but not the other way around. Instead, we pounce on any weakness of the foreigners to show that the gap is still there. When they lose, we call them overhyped or overrated. Or we laud the skill of the Koreans and say that they were so good, they made the foreigners look awful.
Thus might be true for some people, but why don't we treat them like the Koreans and just say that they had a bad day?
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On October 31 2017 04:26 DieuCure wrote:
Special showed really good things.
Elazer played ZvZ.
With Iem Katowice qualifiers and tournament we saw that even Jjakji is better than the best foreigner.
You are over estimating elazer's performance.
In the only macro game between him and Dark we saw an abysmal skill difference.
This
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On October 31 2017 04:56 Majick wrote:
Don't you guys find it sad that most of us agree that ZvZs don't count? It shouldn't be like that in a competitive game.
I mean, what could be done to change it? There don't seem to be any changes coming in this area...
Would reducing Baneling damage vs other Zerg units so that they don't one shot lings change anything here?
It's all about zerg design. Not a specific unit.
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On October 31 2017 04:56 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:36 pvsnp wrote:On October 31 2017 04:23 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On October 31 2017 02:26 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 02:19 Fango wrote:On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 30 2017 14:12 Boggyb wrote:
[quote]
Neeb wasn't overrated. He was by far the best non-Korean in the world and proved that by winning literally 3/4ths of the WCS Circuit events.
SpeCial wasn't underrated unless you think it makes sense that he fails to make it to the playoffs of the last WCS circuit event but then makes the ro8 at WCS Global finals. In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance. Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are. That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses. It's not really an excuse. bo3 series by default have a greater chance for an upset/the lesser player is more likely to win. That is very true, and there is no doubt that helped and has helped foreigners win. However, it does seem like the talk shifted from "foreigners only being able to beat Koreans in bo1s or online but rarely in an offline series of any length" to "foreigners are only able to beat Koreans because bo3s are too volatile." At some point people will have to stop blaming the format or jet lag or meta changes as the main reasons why foreigners are able to beat top level Koreans. Is that surprising? The number of korean pros is significantly lower than a few years ago, a lot of top players are either retired or past their peak and there are no teamhouses anymore. The scene is just much less competitive now so obviously foreigners have a better shot at winning. Also foreigners winning bo3s isn't unheard of, even at the height of the Kespa era Snute/Scarlett/Naniwa won bo3s against top koreans. Except that the foreigners here aren't winning against aLive or Keen. They're winning against the best of the best Koreans. Sure, the overall scene is less competitive, but at the highest level, they as good or better than they were before. And yes, top foreigners can always take bo3s off of top Koreans, but do they do it all at the same time? Usually it's in one tournament where a foreigner takes off a bo3, but it's rarely that most of the foreigners in single tournament either taking bo3s off of top ten Koreans or making the series competitive. If the best of the best Koreans are playing like shit, are they really the best of the best? Sure, you can say they are only human and having an off day, but that most certainly puts an asterisk next to the foreigners beating them. TY vs Stats at Blizzcon was a clown fiesta. Nowhere close to the same league as TY vs Stats at Katowice. Form definitely varies from time to time, and Stats did look rather lost. I would be down for giving Koreans this benefit of a doubt if we also did that when foreigners underperformed or just lost. Because the thing is, regardless of whether or not the excuses are legitimate, there are so many ways we excuse the top Koreans for losing to foreigners but not the other way around. Instead, we pounce on any weakness of the foreigners to show that the gap is still there. When they lose, we call them overhyped or overrated. Or we laud the skill of the Koreans and say that they were so good, they made the foreigners look awful. Thus might be true for some people, but why don't we treat them like the Koreans and just say that they had a bad day?
Because the Koreans tend to win, and the foreigners tend to lose. Certainly there are any number of reasons why individual players lose individual games/series, but when one group of people regularly and consistently demonstrates a higher level of skill than another group of people then it is safe to conclude that the first group is in all likelihood more skilled than the second. Therefore, people expect a particular outcome when the two groups clash. And when the expected outcome is not the actual outcome, excuses are required to explain why this discrepancy exists.
Take for instance Scarlett and INnoVation. In the Ro32 of GSL Season 3, Scarlett played INnoVation in a starting match of Group B. Scarlett won the first game and came extremely close to winning the second, but eventually lost the series 1-2. She was later knocked out in the loser's match by Hurricane. Inno, as we all know, went on to later win that entire season of GSL.
An unbiased observer of that single Bo3, with no prior knowledge of Scarlett or INnoVation, would most likely come to the conclusion that the two players were relatively close in terms of skill. The fact that one player is currently under consideration for GOAT status while the other is.....not, would seem to contradict that conclusion–a perfectly reasonable conclusion from the sample size of a single Bo3.
Now, extrapolating this case study to demonstrated-championship-level players like Stats, TY, and Dark......
Point being that a single series, on a single day, is a terrible measurement of any player's overall skill level. And the overall skill levels say that the top Koreans still outclass the top foreigners by a considerable margin (possible exception for Neeb). Hence why people make excuses for Koreans playing below expectations instead of the other way around.
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On October 31 2017 05:04 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:56 Majick wrote:
Don't you guys find it sad that most of us agree that ZvZs don't count? It shouldn't be like that in a competitive game.
I mean, what could be done to change it? There don't seem to be any changes coming in this area...
Would reducing Baneling damage vs other Zerg units so that they don't one shot lings change anything here? It's all about zerg design. Not a specific unit.
So we just have to accept this state of things? Is there no hope? 
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Honestly one of the biggest problems is using Best of 3 series. SC2 is way too volatile for tournaments to be using bo3's to decide important matches.
(Obviously, it's understandable why they do it, there are time/money/etc. restraints. It's just unfortunate.)
Playing devil's advocate, the argument FOR bo3's might be that standard, machine-like macro players like innovation will almost always win the longer you make series, and cheekier, creative players like sOs would suffer, and that could be bad for the diversity of the game. Not to mention less upsets/wild things happening = less hype for the game. It's interesting to think about, either way.
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On October 31 2017 05:15 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:56 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 04:36 pvsnp wrote:On October 31 2017 04:23 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On October 31 2017 02:26 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 02:19 Fango wrote:On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:
[quote]
In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance.
Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are.
That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses. It's not really an excuse. bo3 series by default have a greater chance for an upset/the lesser player is more likely to win. That is very true, and there is no doubt that helped and has helped foreigners win. However, it does seem like the talk shifted from "foreigners only being able to beat Koreans in bo1s or online but rarely in an offline series of any length" to "foreigners are only able to beat Koreans because bo3s are too volatile." At some point people will have to stop blaming the format or jet lag or meta changes as the main reasons why foreigners are able to beat top level Koreans. Is that surprising? The number of korean pros is significantly lower than a few years ago, a lot of top players are either retired or past their peak and there are no teamhouses anymore. The scene is just much less competitive now so obviously foreigners have a better shot at winning. Also foreigners winning bo3s isn't unheard of, even at the height of the Kespa era Snute/Scarlett/Naniwa won bo3s against top koreans. Except that the foreigners here aren't winning against aLive or Keen. They're winning against the best of the best Koreans. Sure, the overall scene is less competitive, but at the highest level, they as good or better than they were before. And yes, top foreigners can always take bo3s off of top Koreans, but do they do it all at the same time? Usually it's in one tournament where a foreigner takes off a bo3, but it's rarely that most of the foreigners in single tournament either taking bo3s off of top ten Koreans or making the series competitive. If the best of the best Koreans are playing like shit, are they really the best of the best? Sure, you can say they are only human and having an off day, but that most certainly puts an asterisk next to the foreigners beating them. TY vs Stats at Blizzcon was a clown fiesta. Nowhere close to the same league as TY vs Stats at Katowice. Form definitely varies from time to time, and Stats did look rather lost. I would be down for giving Koreans this benefit of a doubt if we also did that when foreigners underperformed or just lost. Because the thing is, regardless of whether or not the excuses are legitimate, there are so many ways we excuse the top Koreans for losing to foreigners but not the other way around. Instead, we pounce on any weakness of the foreigners to show that the gap is still there. When they lose, we call them overhyped or overrated. Or we laud the skill of the Koreans and say that they were so good, they made the foreigners look awful. Thus might be true for some people, but why don't we treat them like the Koreans and just say that they had a bad day? Because the Koreans tend to win, and the foreigners tend to lose. Certainly there are any number of reasons why individual players lose individual games/series, but when one group of people regularly and consistently demonstrates a higher level of skill than another group of people then it is safe to conclude that the first group is in all likelihood more skilled than the second. Therefore, people expect a particular outcome when the two groups clash. And when the expected outcome is not the actual outcome, excuses are required to explain why this discrepancy exists. Take for instance Scarlett and INnoVation. In the Ro32 of GSL Season 3, Scarlett played INnoVation in a starting match of Group B. Scarlett won the first game and came extremely close to winning the second, but eventually lost the series 1-2. She was later knocked out in the loser's match by Hurricane. Inno, as we all know, went on to later win that entire season of GSL. An unbiased observer of that single Bo3, with no prior knowledge of Scarlett or INnoVation, would most likely come to the conclusion that the two players were relatively close in terms of skill. The fact that one player is currently under consideration for GOAT status while the other is.....not, would seem to contradict that conclusion–a perfectly reasonable conclusion from the sample size of a single Bo3. Now, extrapolating this case study to demonstrated-championship-level players like Stats, TY, and Dark...... Point being that a single series, on a single day, is a terrible measurement of any player's overall skill level. And the overall skill levels say that the top Koreans still outclass the top foreigners by a considerable margin (possible exception for Neeb). Hence why people make excuses for Koreans playing below expectations instead of the other way around.
1000% this.
On October 31 2017 05:48 Fatam wrote:
Honestly one of the biggest problems is using Best of 3 series. SC2 is way too volatile for tournaments to be using bo3's to decide important matches.
(Obviously, it's understandable why they do it, there are time/money/etc. restraints. It's just unfortunate.)
Playing devil's advocate, the argument FOR bo3's might be that standard, machine-like macro players like innovation will almost always win the longer you make series, and cheekier, creative players like sOs would suffer, and that could be bad for the diversity of the game. Not to mention less upsets/wild things happening = less hype for the game. It's interesting to think about, either way.
A world where INnoVation would win anything would be perfect.
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On October 31 2017 05:48 Fatam wrote:
Honestly one of the biggest problems is using Best of 3 series. SC2 is way too volatile for tournaments to be using bo3's to decide important matches.
(Obviously, it's understandable why they do it, there are time/money/etc. restraints. It's just unfortunate.)
Playing devil's advocate, the argument FOR bo3's might be that standard, machine-like macro players like innovation will almost always win the longer you make series, and cheekier, creative players like sOs would suffer, and that could be bad for the diversity of the game. Not to mention less upsets/wild things happening = less hype for the game. It's interesting to think about, either way.
sOs has won plenty of bo7s. All your trying to say is that players who rely on gambling and build orders to win have a better chance in a bo3. Which isn't a good thing
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On October 31 2017 04:56 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:36 pvsnp wrote:On October 31 2017 04:23 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 03:40 Charoisaur wrote:On October 31 2017 02:26 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 31 2017 02:19 Fango wrote:On October 31 2017 02:12 youngjiddle wrote:On October 30 2017 21:50 Boggyb wrote:On October 30 2017 14:49 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 30 2017 14:12 Boggyb wrote:
[quote]
Neeb wasn't overrated. He was by far the best non-Korean in the world and proved that by winning literally 3/4ths of the WCS Circuit events.
SpeCial wasn't underrated unless you think it makes sense that he fails to make it to the playoffs of the last WCS circuit event but then makes the ro8 at WCS Global finals. In a tournament like this, where the best Koreans and the best Foreigners meet, there's bound to be people who don't perform as well as they did in their original circuits as well as people who outperform their performance. Even aside from Neeb and Major, look at Stats and Dark. I don't think most people thought that they would be out of the tournament (mostly anyways), but here we are. That's why Blizzard swapped from a straight 16 man tournament with bests of 5 to GSL style groups with bests of 3. More volatility = more chance of non-Koreans winning. lmao, keep finding excuses. It's not really an excuse. bo3 series by default have a greater chance for an upset/the lesser player is more likely to win. That is very true, and there is no doubt that helped and has helped foreigners win. However, it does seem like the talk shifted from "foreigners only being able to beat Koreans in bo1s or online but rarely in an offline series of any length" to "foreigners are only able to beat Koreans because bo3s are too volatile." At some point people will have to stop blaming the format or jet lag or meta changes as the main reasons why foreigners are able to beat top level Koreans. Is that surprising? The number of korean pros is significantly lower than a few years ago, a lot of top players are either retired or past their peak and there are no teamhouses anymore. The scene is just much less competitive now so obviously foreigners have a better shot at winning. Also foreigners winning bo3s isn't unheard of, even at the height of the Kespa era Snute/Scarlett/Naniwa won bo3s against top koreans. Except that the foreigners here aren't winning against aLive or Keen. They're winning against the best of the best Koreans. Sure, the overall scene is less competitive, but at the highest level, they as good or better than they were before. And yes, top foreigners can always take bo3s off of top Koreans, but do they do it all at the same time? Usually it's in one tournament where a foreigner takes off a bo3, but it's rarely that most of the foreigners in single tournament either taking bo3s off of top ten Koreans or making the series competitive. If the best of the best Koreans are playing like shit, are they really the best of the best? Sure, you can say they are only human and having an off day, but that most certainly puts an asterisk next to the foreigners beating them. TY vs Stats at Blizzcon was a clown fiesta. Nowhere close to the same league as TY vs Stats at Katowice. Form definitely varies from time to time, and Stats did look rather lost. I would be down for giving Koreans this benefit of a doubt if we also did that when foreigners underperformed or just lost. Because the thing is, regardless of whether or not the excuses are legitimate, there are so many ways we excuse the top Koreans for losing to foreigners but not the other way around. Instead, we pounce on any weakness of the foreigners to show that the gap is still there. When they lose, we call them overhyped or overrated. Or we laud the skill of the Koreans and say that they were so good, they made the foreigners look awful. Thus might be true for some people, but why don't we treat them like the Koreans and just say that they had a bad day?
I'll make excuses for Neeb. He was by far the best non-Korean player this year and he was rewarded with two players whose best match up is currently ZvP and one of those is the hottest players at the moment (Rogue). I think there is a decent chance he gets out of any of the other 3 groups with Group C being the lowest chance.
Elazer got to ZvZ his way into the ro8 and SpeCial had the Korean on the biggest slump (TY). Yes, SpeCial also beat recent SSL Champion which is impressive, but Neeb also won a bo3 against a recent Korean champion.
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EPT
