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Active: 33021 users

SpeCial and Elazer break the mould as Stats and Dark crash…

Forum Index > SC2 General
125 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 Next All
Gurbak
Profile Joined January 2017
France622 Posts
November 01 2017 11:20 GMT
#101
On November 01 2017 19:37 DieuCure wrote:
The only macro game was a complete stomp between a 7k mmr and a 6k3

Cheeses, allins and timing attacks are perfectly legit strats. Elazer was a better player that Dark in this bo3, deal with it.
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
November 01 2017 11:43 GMT
#102
He won without being better. If you cant understand that ...
TL+ Member
Boggyb
Profile Joined January 2017
2855 Posts
November 01 2017 13:51 GMT
#103
On November 01 2017 20:20 Gurbak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 19:37 DieuCure wrote:
The only macro game was a complete stomp between a 7k mmr and a 6k3

Cheeses, allins and timing attacks are perfectly legit strats. Elazer was a better player that Dark in this bo3, deal with it.

They are perfectly legit strats but winning with them doesn't inherently mean someone is a better player. There is too much of a rock-paper-scissors in build wins to make the determination from a best of 3 unless the player is super mind gaming or playing their opponent. (e.g. Serral's map win in the decider match was targeting GuMiho's tendencies.)
DSh1
Profile Joined April 2017
292 Posts
November 01 2017 14:40 GMT
#104
On November 01 2017 20:43 DieuCure wrote:
He won without being better. If you cant understand that ...

You got it wrong.

Not the better player wins, the one who wins is better.
Trizztein
Profile Joined August 2014
Canada45 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-01 14:50:39
November 01 2017 14:40 GMT
#105
Elazer pulled his A game. Dark pulled his C game. Elazer won. That doesn't mean Dark is the worst player overall. He would probably be ahead of Elazer ladder wise, in longer series, on most days of the week and maybe in a different place than California (not every1 deals with specific jet lags the same). But that certainly does not mean that Dark can be miles ahead of Elazer even overall. A 7K mmr player on his C game can lose a Bo3 to a 6.4K mmr on his A game, but much less likely to a 5.4K mmr player, even if that player is playing his absolute best.

The luck factor can usually be compensated by the better player investing slightly more in scouting, this being true except for the initial 1 minute of the game (before any unit can make it's way across the map) . Thus "cheese" or "all in" victories isn't an excuse for Dark to lose the series (esp. Here since we're not talking about 12 pool strat). Not scouting during a plausible window for muta switch was in itself a gamble too on Dark's side, not only Elazer's.
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
November 01 2017 14:53 GMT
#106
On November 01 2017 23:40 DSh1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 20:43 DieuCure wrote:
He won without being better. If you cant understand that ...

You got it wrong.

Not the better player wins, the one who wins is better.


You are very smart
TL+ Member
Heyjoray
Profile Joined September 2015
240 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-01 18:28:23
November 01 2017 18:23 GMT
#107
On November 01 2017 20:20 Gurbak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 19:37 DieuCure wrote:
The only macro game was a complete stomp between a 7k mmr and a 6k3

Cheeses, allins and timing attacks are perfectly legit strats. Elazer was a better player that Dark in this bo3, deal with it.

Why wasnt he the better player in game 2? I think Dark was ahead ~30 supply while building a spire. And the winning player is better? I think Rifkin and Zombiegrub won against Ryung and Crank in a legit Archon Match. Are they the better player?
Gurbak
Profile Joined January 2017
France622 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-01 18:53:28
November 01 2017 18:47 GMT
#108
On November 02 2017 03:23 Heyjoray wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 20:20 Gurbak wrote:
On November 01 2017 19:37 DieuCure wrote:
The only macro game was a complete stomp between a 7k mmr and a 6k3

Cheeses, allins and timing attacks are perfectly legit strats. Elazer was a better player that Dark in this bo3, deal with it.

Why wasnt he the better player in game 2? I think Dark was ahead ~30 supply while building a spire. And the winning player is better? I think Rifkin and Zombiegrub won against Ryung and Crank in a legit Archon Match. Are they the better player?

wtf are you talking about? Did Rifkin and Zombiegrub win against Ryung and Crank in a WCS Global Finals match? This comparison is nonsence
Heyjoray
Profile Joined September 2015
240 Posts
November 01 2017 18:54 GMT
#109
On November 02 2017 03:47 Gurbak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2017 03:23 Heyjoray wrote:
On November 01 2017 20:20 Gurbak wrote:
On November 01 2017 19:37 DieuCure wrote:
The only macro game was a complete stomp between a 7k mmr and a 6k3

Cheeses, allins and timing attacks are perfectly legit strats. Elazer was a better player that Dark in this bo3, deal with it.

Why wasnt he the better player in game 2? I think Dark was ahead ~30 supply while building a spire. And the winning player is better? I think Rifkin and Zombiegrub won against Ryung and Crank in a legit Archon Match. Are they the better player?

wtf are you talking about? Rifkin and Zombiegrub won against Ryung and Crank in a WCS Global Finals match? This comparison is nonsence

What? Because its not a Blizzcon match it doesnt have any relevance?
Kafka777
Profile Joined December 2015
361 Posts
November 01 2017 20:41 GMT
#110
On November 01 2017 20:20 Gurbak wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On November 01 2017 19:37 DieuCure wrote:
The only macro game was a complete stomp between a 7k mmr and a 6k3

Cheeses, allins and timing attacks are perfectly legit strats. Elazer was a better player that Dark in this bo3, deal with it.

Why wasnt he the better player in game 2? I think Dark was ahead ~30 supply while building a spire. And the winning player is better? I think Rifkin and Zombiegrub won against Ryung and Crank in a legit Archon Match. Are they the better player?


When Dark cheesed his wins against foreigners so many times - it was skill. When Elazer wins with mind games it means nothing, he is the inferior player. lol. Remember they played for over a month on korean ladder, hundreds of games and the results for Korean zergs were abysmal. Elazer is not only much better than Dark in zvz he is better than any korean zerg in zvz, the longer the series the less chance a Korean has. Same with ZvP. Dark has better ZvT, does it absolutely mean he is a better player? By the way, when Dark reached the finals last year he only won 1 game against a Korean also 2:1.
Heyjoray
Profile Joined September 2015
240 Posts
November 01 2017 21:11 GMT
#111
On November 02 2017 05:41 Kafka777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 20:20 Gurbak wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On November 01 2017 19:37 DieuCure wrote:
The only macro game was a complete stomp between a 7k mmr and a 6k3

Cheeses, allins and timing attacks are perfectly legit strats. Elazer was a better player that Dark in this bo3, deal with it.

Why wasnt he the better player in game 2? I think Dark was ahead ~30 supply while building a spire. And the winning player is better? I think Rifkin and Zombiegrub won against Ryung and Crank in a legit Archon Match. Are they the better player?


When Dark cheesed his wins against foreigners so many times - it was skill. When Elazer wins with mind games it means nothing, he is the inferior player. lol. Remember they played for over a month on korean ladder, hundreds of games and the results for Korean zergs were abysmal. Elazer is not only much better than Dark in zvz he is better than any korean zerg in zvz, the longer the series the less chance a Korean has. Same with ZvP. Dark has better ZvT, does it absolutely mean he is a better player? By the way, when Dark reached the finals last year he only won 1 game against a Korean also 2:1.

So why didnt he won game 2?
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-01 21:16:13
November 01 2017 21:15 GMT
#112
On November 02 2017 05:41 Kafka777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2017 20:20 Gurbak wrote:
Hide nested quote -
On November 01 2017 19:37 DieuCure wrote:
The only macro game was a complete stomp between a 7k mmr and a 6k3

Cheeses, allins and timing attacks are perfectly legit strats. Elazer was a better player that Dark in this bo3, deal with it.

Why wasnt he the better player in game 2? I think Dark was ahead ~30 supply while building a spire. And the winning player is better? I think Rifkin and Zombiegrub won against Ryung and Crank in a legit Archon Match. Are they the better player?


When Dark cheesed his wins against foreigners so many times - it was skill. When Elazer wins with mind games it means nothing, he is the inferior player. lol. Remember they played for over a month on korean ladder, hundreds of games and the results for Korean zergs were abysmal. Elazer is not only much better than Dark in zvz he is better than any korean zerg in zvz, the longer the series the less chance a Korean has. Same with ZvP. Dark has better ZvT, does it absolutely mean he is a better player? By the way, when Dark reached the finals last year he only won 1 game against a Korean also 2:1.

Wait, are you seriously claiming that Elazer > Dark? As in, Elazer is the superior player overall, across all matchups, and capable of achieving everything Dark has and more? That Elazer is quite possibly the best Zerg in the world? Is that what you are saying?

Please tell me I have misunderstood.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Kafka777
Profile Joined December 2015
361 Posts
November 01 2017 21:22 GMT
#113

Wait, are you seriously claiming that Elazer > Dark? As in, Elazer is the superior player overall, across all matchups, and capable of achieving everything Dark has and more? That Elazer is quite possibly the best Zerg in the world? Is that what you are saying?

Please tell me I have misunderstood.


I didn't say he is better across all matchups. I said he is better in zvz and at least as good in ZvP and inferior in zvt.

So why didnt he won game 2?


Are you serious? Even if he has a 75% win rate against best koreans in zvz he will lose games.
bela.mervado
Profile Joined December 2008
Hungary383 Posts
November 01 2017 21:24 GMT
#114
Grats Elazer,
good luck in ur games!
Boggyb
Profile Joined January 2017
2855 Posts
November 01 2017 22:22 GMT
#115
On November 02 2017 06:22 Kafka777 wrote:
Show nested quote +

Wait, are you seriously claiming that Elazer > Dark? As in, Elazer is the superior player overall, across all matchups, and capable of achieving everything Dark has and more? That Elazer is quite possibly the best Zerg in the world? Is that what you are saying?

Please tell me I have misunderstood.


I didn't say he is better across all matchups. I said he is better in zvz and at least as good in ZvP and inferior in zvt.

Show nested quote +
So why didnt he won game 2?


Are you serious? Even if he has a 75% win rate against best koreans in zvz he will lose games.

There is absolutely no way that he'd come close to matching Dark's SSL run. Having to play 3 players of the same race in a best of 7 and only fall to the player with the highest amount of WCS Korea points in the final game is absolutely insane.
Kafka777
Profile Joined December 2015
361 Posts
November 01 2017 22:40 GMT
#116

There is absolutely no way that he'd come close to matching Dark's SSL run. Having to play 3 players of the same race in a best of 7 and only fall to the player with the highest amount of WCS Korea points in the final game is absolutely insane.


There is no chance that Stats would win against Elazer in a best of 7, just as it would be impossible for herO to beat Elazer in a best of 7.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-02 00:44:50
November 02 2017 00:42 GMT
#117
On November 02 2017 06:22 Kafka777 wrote:
Show nested quote +

Wait, are you seriously claiming that Elazer > Dark? As in, Elazer is the superior player overall, across all matchups, and capable of achieving everything Dark has and more? That Elazer is quite possibly the best Zerg in the world? Is that what you are saying?

Please tell me I have misunderstood.


I didn't say he is better across all matchups. I said he is better in zvz and at least as good in ZvP and inferior in zvt.

Show nested quote +
So why didnt he won game 2?


Are you serious? Even if he has a 75% win rate against best koreans in zvz he will lose games.

I was extremely unimpressed by Elazer in group stage. He got completely dumpstered by herO, beat up the weakest player at Blizzcon, and then squeezed past Dark in the most notoriously coinflippy matchup.

And now somehow you think he's better than Dark? Dark, one of the greatest Zergs in the world? Dark had an off day, and lost the ZvZ coinflip. Elazer hasn't demonstrated anything remotely close to Dark's career results. There's no justification whatsoever for claiming he is better than Dark.

Special, on the other hand, put on a far better showing in group stage. He played very well and advanced in first over two Koreans. Sure, Stats and TY were in poor form, but Special's form was still very impressive.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
November 02 2017 00:57 GMT
#118
I dont know how people can believe that Elazer > Dark

It's like if Getafe win a match against Real Madrid, Getafe isnt superior...
TL+ Member
Kafka777
Profile Joined December 2015
361 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-02 01:50:34
November 02 2017 01:42 GMT
#119
I dont know how people can believe that Elazer > Dark

It's like if Getafe win a match against Real Madrid, Getafe isnt superior...


If you cannot read, do not express such biassed opinions. Dark lost about 50 times in the last month against Elazer online. Now he lost in the most important tournament. Live with it. It is like Getafe won the Spanish league and then won in Champions league 2:1 against Real and the fans still could not believe this.
Parrek
Profile Joined May 2016
United States893 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-02 03:16:55
November 02 2017 02:48 GMT
#120
On November 02 2017 10:42 Kafka777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
I dont know how people can believe that Elazer > Dark

It's like if Getafe win a match against Real Madrid, Getafe isnt superior...


If you cannot read, do not express such biassed opinions. Dark lost about 50 times in the last month against Elazer online. Now he lost in the most important tournament. Live with it. It is like Getafe won the Spanish league and then won in Champions league 2:1 against Real and the fans still could not believe this.



When did Dark lose vs Elazer so much? just curious
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 Next All
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