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Barcodes on SC2 Discussion - Ban them from ladder - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13974 Posts
September 12 2017 01:19 GMT
#41
I disagree with your point about ladder. If it's such a big deal, change your name to barcode.

As for streamer perspective I agree. It's really cool when 2 pros meet up on ladder, crazy shenanigans can ensue as a result, and not having that name can ruin the effect.
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
Inazuma
Profile Joined June 2016
17 Posts
September 12 2017 01:26 GMT
#42
Then you need to make a decision, do you want to be famous or do you want to win games?

If you're worried about advantage, maybe stop using mech every game.
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
September 12 2017 02:00 GMT
#43
i think avilo should have a special upgrade to his account that provides a live, realtime updating onscreen overlay of his opponent's build order in his previous game so the opponent can't unfairly try to introduce variance or tactics to his play
TL+ Member
Autumn22
Profile Joined August 2016
26 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-12 02:11:00
September 12 2017 02:09 GMT
#44
It is absolutely a flawed game mechanic in need of a fix.

Players should not be incentivized to create identical impersonal names in order to be playing at on an equal footing with the rest of the community.

Barcodes offer a clear gameplay advantage, and the choice to not use them handicaps you.

THIS is broken game design. Certainly Blizzard did not envision a ranked leaderboard where half the names are IIIIIIIII. But the incentive system they created by allowing players to have identical looking names forced this on the players.

There absolutely needs to be a way to identify your opponent before the game starts. Perhaps adding a public unique identifier to each account, or allowing players to add a note to other accounts for the loading screen could be some form a solution.

The important thing is they need to eliminate the incentive so that players can feel free to choose their own unique names and express themselves, instead of being forced into the impersonal barcode.

When a significant amount of players are using the name IIIIIIIIII, you know you messed up somewhere in creating your multiplayer system. FIX IT, Blizzard.

And to the people saying "use a barcode then!" THANK YOU THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT HERE. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. That you are encouraged to use a barcode if you want to compete at an optimal level on ladder. *That* is NOT good game design. That is a broken system. Everyone should feel free to use their own name without fear of handicapping themselves.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16683 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-12 02:46:37
September 12 2017 02:44 GMT
#45
On September 12 2017 05:32 avilo wrote:
Barcode accounts are simply an unfair advantage because you maintain your anonymity while knowing who your opponent is.

its unfair but the ladder isn't very important. i'd rather have Blizzard focus their limited software engineering resources on other issues.

some ladder games will be fair. some will be unfair. life isn't perfect... let's just live with a sometimes fair ladder and be happy with the fair games we do get to play.

i'd rather Blizzard focus their very limited RTS resources on other issues.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Jett.Jack.Alvir
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada2250 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-12 03:10:49
September 12 2017 03:09 GMT
#46
Guys, I was playing a game of Texas hold em, and I accidentally dropped my 2 cards face up.

I don't think it was fair that my opponents saw my cards, and they should have been forced to look away as soon as they realized my cards were exposed.

Sure, you could tell me that I should have hidden my cards better, but it's not fair that they had eyes to see what I did.

Ok I could get banned/warned for my comment above, so I will add something meaningful, at least I think it will be.

Barcodes have been around during BW. Those crazy Koreans were so secretive of their builds, so they created barcodes.

That is the original purpose.

Now creating barcode accounts for the sole purpose of stream-sniping/ghosting on the ladder is deplorable, but I don't think Blizzard really cares. However, for tournament purposes, barcodes are banned, and streaming during WCS qualifiers requires a stream delay anyways.

It sucks to see barcodes, but I think we need to put down the stick and let the dead mule rot.
KR_4EVR
Profile Joined July 2017
316 Posts
September 12 2017 03:54 GMT
#47
There's a really simple solution to this, whether barcodes or whatever is thought by you to be a "problem" or "non-problem" that can make a person of any viewpoint improve its outlook.

It's called private/public identifier, aka dynamic polymorphism.

Basically this is how it works: You yourself have the option to set your tag to whatever you want. You also have a long generating key KEY1, like RSA, and a short decipher key KEY2. Your KEY1 is visible to the computer of the person playing you, but the public identifier that organism sees on screen is UNIQUELY determined by his KEY2 and your KEY1. Also, the public profile you see for your opponent is UNIQUELY determined by your KEY2 and his KEY1.

The keys of other players which are on YOUR computer are given before the match and deleted after the match everywhere except on your and your opponent's computer. Match history is publicly recorded in the public identifier of your opponent, though the chain of private records on your opponent's computer contains your public key. YOUR OWN KEYSET is never deleted from your computer and is NOT EVER STORED ON BATTLENET. The system, after matching you by MMR and Sigma (your only other pieces of publicly available info), sends your public key to the other player and receives the public key from that player, etc.....

You can see how this works.

Example:
Player 1 chooses name "ZestIsWerst"
Player 2 chooses name "DvaYdebyZero"
Player 3 chooses name "LoLnonWoL"

Player 1 plays a series of games with player 2 & 3. In the UI, this is what is seen:

Player 1 sees player 2's name as BlueRaynorZerglingCopper and Player 3's name as ScvMonkeyEUPylon
Player 2 sees player 1's name as RedFoxArtanisFive and Player 2's name as WildOrangeVodkaKerrigan
Player 3 sees player 2's name as TreeMooseKaraxProbe and Player 1's name as MeleeBarracksQueenEight
etc.etc.
You get the point.

Basically nobody except the person who you play can determine who you are from that match online. The exception is this:
THE GRANDMASTERLEADERBORD IS RANKED 2-ways, just like ordinary two-name nomenclature.

Your first name is your character name. Example: Player 1 makes it to top 8 on GM. He is listed with first name
ZestIsWerst - and, if you have played him within the last season (or two or whatever, ignore the point) has a last name visible which is the usual one you encounter.

EXAMPLE.
Player 2 is not on the GM list but looks at the GM list. He sees in position #7:

ZestIsWerst RedFoxArtanisFive

Player 3 is looks at the GM list and sees in position #7:

ZestIsWerst TreeMooseKaraxProbe

Player 4, meanwhile, has never played Player 1 in the last 1-2 seasons, and so only sees

#7- ZestIsWerst BLANKBLANKBLANKBLANK

Believe me, this system solves all your problems and is desperately needed in e-sports.

Don't all start thanking me at once.
Et tu Brute ?
RenSC2
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1057 Posts
September 12 2017 04:06 GMT
#48
Autumn22 has a good solution with creating notes. After a game, you should be able to make a note on a player. When the loading screen pops up, if you've added a note for that player, it should be shown.

For Avilo in the meantime, I'd recommend not being so predictable. Mech as you have X% of the time, but throw in some other builds, especially aggressive ones, so that nobody is blind countering you on name alone.
Playing better than standard requires deviation. This divergence usually results in sub-standard play.
Jett.Jack.Alvir
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada2250 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-12 07:27:44
September 12 2017 07:11 GMT
#49
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote:
Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.



looks like the idiot above me just showed exactly what i mean

I like watching Kripp, and it sux when he's getting stream sniped, but nowhere from that video was there a mention of Blizzard banning anyone.

Blizzard doesn't care if you stream and get sniped or ghosted. They've said countless times it's not cheating.

Streamers openly share their screen with the public, and the unscrupulous players will take advantage of it.

It does suck though. I don't like Avilo, and I enjoy seeing him lose, but I want him to lose against legitimate players. There have been a few occasions where I believe he really was getting sniped. However, he's blamed many of his losses to being sniped, too many, so it's hard to feel pity or support him when he creates a thread like this.

But let's be honest here. Avilo doesn't play to win. He doesn't play to improve. He plays because watching him is entertaining. So whether or not he is playing a barcode, and regardless if that barcode is sniping him, Blizzard will do absolutely nothing. Nada. They won't implement some fancy cloaking system with keys. They won't put an interface to add notes on a player you just played (that's actually a good idea). And they certainly won't ban barcodes from ladder.
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-12 07:17:36
September 12 2017 07:15 GMT
#50
all koreans play with lllllllll -_- u wanna ban them all ?
you made alot of enemies with your behavior so people will do this to you no matter what their name is
its sad but thats the way people react
but u cant have for ur own good say like "ok thats forbidden now" when it hits 99,9% of people who have nothng to do with the problem u have

also i bet most lllll u play are not snipers ... i play vs a shitton of lllll and i dont stream so its still common to have such enemies
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
September 12 2017 07:24 GMT
#51
On September 12 2017 07:57 NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2017 07:51 VHbb wrote:
On September 12 2017 07:15 NonY wrote:
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote:
Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.

I want to clarify that in the SC2 community we usually distinguish between knowing when to hit find match to get a particular opponent (sniping) and watching your opponent's stream while you play against him (ghosting). Sniping isn't totally fair play, since you're gaming the matchmaking system, but it's not really harmful enough to be frowned upon. I myself sniped Hyun when he was 70-0 or whatever on NA. Ghosting, on the other hand, is straight-up cheating and is never okay. I'm not really sure that there are many Hearthstone snipers that aren't ghosting so the two are pretty much synonymous in that community. But in SC2, many people are thrilled to have a chance to play against certain players, so they snipe, close the stream, and then give it their best fair shot.


I have a question, coming just from my ignorance from the subject (I specify it because I have no intention to flame, just to profit from the experience of streamers / pro-players posting here):

is it possible to avoid the "ghosting" problem by setting a long delay time for the stream?


This seems an easy solution, so I guess that it does not work very well and I'm wandering why.
Maybe sniping is still possible with some guessing, but ghosting should be much harder with a ˜5min delay. Does this impact the quality of the stream (e.g. more difficult to interact with the chat and the people watching)?

thanks!

Yeah it solves the problem but as you said, career streamers will make more money by having no delay and actively interacting with their viewers. Better to keep the delay low so you can be interactive and use your exposure to cheaters as a way to generate drama and entertainment. A progamer that's just being nice and sharing some practice with the world can set a long delay and forget that they're even streaming.



but if u have a low delay to interact with the fans, is winning rly the most importent stuff then ?
isnt the sniping not just one more "interaction" with ur fans ?
when it is so easy to put the delay high enough so its not a problem anymore i think wanting to have "interaction" just means u have to deal with people watching ur stream while playing you there can never be a solution to that.

and as u said HUGE difference between sniping (i did sometimes) and ghosting (which is cheating but basicly unproovable but still disgusting)
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10135 Posts
September 12 2017 07:45 GMT
#52
On September 12 2017 11:09 Autumn22 wrote:
THIS is broken game design. Certainly Blizzard did not envision a ranked leaderboard where half the names are IIIIIIIII. But the incentive system they created by allowing players to have identical looking names forced this on the players.

Rofl, you mean like how they were exactly in BW's predecessor? Strong point broseph.

All of this whining is just that - whining. Git gud.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
paxconsciente
Profile Joined January 2015
Belgium91 Posts
September 12 2017 07:51 GMT
#53
With bw being watchable again, less people will be watching sc2 once they realise how much greater bw is as a spectator sport, barcodes only make the choice to watch day to day, regular run of the mill sc2 streams or flash/larva or bw tournament vods that much easier.
The best way to predict the future is to create it - Peter Drucker. <3 so0,ret,JD,Happy,Innovation,Snute
fLyiNgDroNe
Profile Joined September 2005
Belgium4001 Posts
September 12 2017 08:02 GMT
#54
i'm not sure how banning barcode names will help. Everyone will start playing under the "aaaaaaaaaaa" name.
Barcodes were a way to create unrecognizable name when it wasnt possible to choose the name that is already registered. (so multiple combinations of "I" and "l" would create a lot of similar but different names). In SC2 afaik you can make a thousand of accounts with the same name.
Drone is a way of living
iD.NicKy
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
France767 Posts
September 12 2017 08:37 GMT
#55
What about adding anonymity option when you play ladder ?
Bizcutz_dk
Profile Joined September 2017
1 Post
September 12 2017 09:04 GMT
#56
The solution is very simple. Unique IDs. Up the character limit from 12 to maybe 18 and allow spacing. Same letter more than 2 times in a row is not allowed ( lll or III not allowed)
yht9657
Profile Joined December 2016
1810 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-12 09:14:46
September 12 2017 09:14 GMT
#57
Lol this issue only applies to some players who stick to one single play style, refuse to admit other players are outplaying them when they lose and blame balance when they can't beat everyone with this one single play style.

However I do find it hilarious when some low league players use barcode and kachinsky portrait pretending to be badass but turns out to be really bad.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
September 12 2017 09:26 GMT
#58
I'm leaving games against random. You can leave games against barcode players. It's your choice, Avilo. Forcing rules because you doesn't like something is stupid. Since we cannot have unique names every barcode player can name themselves aviIo and you have the same problem, what then, we will ban all versions of Avilos?
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-12 10:19:16
September 12 2017 10:18 GMT
#59
can't you guys learn to play multiple races as efficiently as one another to abuse the meta that way and get even better at the 'game' as a whole? i would have thought that would be the next evolution of starcraft.... it hasn't happened yet tho right? race picking based on meta, map, players etc. or maybe you have to select your race before queueing ? i guess that must be the case...and the only available option is to random. well, i think that's a shame, and race picking should be a thing. more skill to the skillful
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
September 12 2017 10:25 GMT
#60
On September 12 2017 12:09 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Guys, I was playing a game of Texas hold em, and I accidentally dropped my 2 cards face up.

I don't think it was fair that my opponents saw my cards, and they should have been forced to look away as soon as they realized my cards were exposed.

Sure, you could tell me that I should have hidden my cards better, but it's not fair that they had eyes to see what I did.

Ok I could get banned/warned for my comment above, so I will add something meaningful, at least I think it will be.

Barcodes have been around during BW. Those crazy Koreans were so secretive of their builds, so they created barcodes.

That is the original purpose.

Now creating barcode accounts for the sole purpose of stream-sniping/ghosting on the ladder is deplorable, but I don't think Blizzard really cares. However, for tournament purposes, barcodes are banned, and streaming during WCS qualifiers requires a stream delay anyways.

It sucks to see barcodes, but I think we need to put down the stick and let the dead mule rot.


Strawman. WHat would be more analogous to a poker situation is you're playing at a live event.

You sit at the table and people can see and know who you are. But there is one guy at the table that gets to have his identity hidden from every other player at the table before the game even starts.

He knows who you are, you have no idea who he is. He has a clear unfair advantage in this situation because he has an informational advantage that isn't supposed to exist in that situation. You all are sitting at the table and went to play a game of poker and the information you have to give up to be allowed to play is who you are.

It is clearly an unfair advantage that one person gets to hide all information about themselves, while the players that are not using barcodes have information known about them before the game begins.

Even in my OP i mentioned that i knew some people are just gonna say "just use a barcode yourself!" which really does nothing to address the problem.
Sup
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