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Canada11355 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote:
If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O
To prevent opponents in tournaments from being able to study their recent match history and build orders
To prevent haters/fans from messaging them after the game because they have a well known username
They want to imitate the pros and possibly create nervousness in the opponent the same way using the name 'snute' or 'avilo' could make someone think it's possible they are playing a pro or are on a stream
They want to make people upset
They want to.
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There are like 20 professional players in the world who want to train allins and unexpected strategies to win their bo3s and bo5s on tournaments. They don't want anyone to be able to gather a replay pack of them and study their timings for those strategies to win them on tournaments.
Indeed. They do it because, there is an advantage to studying and knowing your opponent. So why is everyone so adamant about it not being the case?
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On September 14 2017 01:15 sh1RoKen wrote:
on tournaments.
The Ladder is a long format tournament. Just because it isn't a fancy Pro tournament doesn't change that fact. o.O
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On September 14 2017 01:57 zenasprime wrote:Show nested quote +There are like 20 professional players in the world who want to train allins and unexpected strategies to win their bo3s and bo5s on tournaments. They don't want anyone to be able to gather a replay pack of them and study their timings for those strategies to win them on tournaments. Indeed. They do it because, as is there is an advantage to studying and knowing your opponent. So why is everyone so addimate about it not being the case?
*adamant
I think the point is that, for most of the players, you're not going to know your opponent since that one game you've played against them isn't likely going to be indicative of the variance of strategies they may employ. Unless you're adamant about studying every game you play, or you get lucky with matchmaking and find yourself fighting the same player repeatedly, and you actually have the capacity to change your own strategies such that you can properly execute a counter, trying to read your opponent at any level beyond the creme de la creme is a waste of time and provides a negligible advantage at best.
For instance:
You play against a Zerg who goes a long macro-oriented game. When you meet him again, you decide to go greedy to match them. They rush against your three-base-before-X.
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Uuh..
Then people will create random nicknames like aH37bb(€#]cp43l
Will you ban them, too?
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think the point is that, for most of the players, you're not going to know your opponent
Of course not, but I don't think anyone was seriously talking about bronze through platinum league. *shrug*
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I do agree that having barcodes is a problem at all levels of play. Even in Diamond (my level), I frequently will play an opponent several times in a row, and if that person is a barcode, the current method makes impossible to know in that instance it is a rematch, even if they use the same decal.
I would like to take a solution from online poker to solve this, and that is to give people the ability to write a personal note on the opponent. When playing online poker, you can click on a person and type a note that indicates how they play; then when you are at a table with that person again, the note stays and you can click on it to read and edit the note.
If this functionality was included in-game as well as via the match history screens, you would have your note on the opponent and then, when you play them again, have your unique note to identify playstyle used. This allows people to maintain barcode names while also helping opponents identify to some degree which is which.
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personal note on the opponent.
This seems to be a very reasonable solution. To be honest, I don't really understand how any high level player can say that knowing their opponent, their strengths and weaknesses, doesn't constitute an advantageous body of knowledge. That's common sense in my opinion. It's how strategies are developed in real world competition, why do they think Starcraft 2 would be immune?
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Rofl, seriously , if snute can leave his username and still be top 8 I don't know why it's a problem at avilo's 5k2 mmr
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Good evening, here some quick math before we continue.
Average post count for users agreeing that barcodes are a problem: 62
Times expression "ad hominem" used by OP: 5
Times expression "strawman" used by OP: 3
Apologies for the interruption, and now back to our regular programming!
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Average post count for users agreeing that barcodes are a problem: 62
Member since 2012. Hell my name is even listed under MLG Providence 2011 Open bracket here on TL (I wouldn't normally think it would matter but since it's a point of contention). I lurk more than I post. *shrug*
I didn't know I needed any special pre-req for posting to TL for a topic that seemed interesting to talk about.
Why does it matter?
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He simply posted statistics, no one mentioned "requirement", if not you.
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On September 14 2017 05:19 DieuCure wrote:
He simply posted statistics, no one mentioned "requirement", if not you.
It was a cheeky implication. A spade is a spade. 
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Ladder play is supposed to be a fair experience for every player involved, and knowing who you are playing is a part of that experience.
The most fair game is when neither player has any data on the other so both can only gamble or play off of what they scout. You don't care about true fairness and ought to look into getting a barcode account.
When you play versus 5 barcodes and you have no idea who they are, what their tendencies are, what builds they might use...but they see your account as "Liquid Snute," or "avilo,' or "Puck," these players can immediately have an information advantage just by knowing who you are in the community and what your tendencies are and what your range of builds are.
The range of "conventional builds" is finite. Based off of race alone you know what they're more or less limited to. You also seem to imply that if you know who they are then you know exactly what they'll do every game, which is false. You probably get just as mad when you play A who generally does 0 but chooses to 1 and you lose. You can't guarantee what other players are going to do even if you know who they are. The closest player to that is you. "If Z or T then mech, else bio." is you at least 95% of the time.
This is a huge deal. The solution and counter-argument should not be "just make a barcode as well!" because that is a ridiculous argument and doesnt' address the main point.
Why is it a huge deal? Why should that not be the counter argument? What bad would come of practice if all players on ladder had barcodes and reacted solely off of scouting or via build order gambling? Your argument is ridiculous because you don't express why the one you're against is. What is the main point?
Barcode accounts are simply an unfair advantage because you maintain your anonymity while knowing who your opponent is. Would this scenario ever occur in a tournament bo3/bo5/boX? No. You might play an unknown player, but you at least know who they are and can look up VODS, etc. or get some information on them.
What happens when a barcode plays a barcode? What happens to that "unfair advantage"? You're also implying that ladder should operate as a tournament. In tournaments, people know one another's identity. This is true even in SC2, or at least at the global professional level. You give everyone you play an unfair advantage by using a unique name and a play style they're well aware of. You allow yourself to be countered before the game starts in most cases.
As a player/pro/ladder player...barcodes absolutely give an unfair advantage and i think it's time we discuss this as a community and hopefully get blizzard to get rid of these accounts. If people want to practice anonymously they can do custom games - a public ladder is not the place for having such an unfair advantage.
So when you play with a barcode account, you have a massive, unfair advantage over players that also play with barcode accounts? You keep arguing by assertion but prove nothing: barcode accounts are supposedly unfair for [everyone?] and in all contexts, right? Prove it. Or do you mean, "It's unfair to avilo just 'cause him say so."? If anything, ladder should be used for anonymous practice and custom games for tournament practice since in the latter (at the REAL pro level) you always know the name of who you're playing.
As a streamer with a pretty good viewer base...this is a huge issue for me personally. I do not know how much it is for other streamers getting sniped, but every other game i'm playing versus a barcoded player sniping my stream.
They can choose to be notified when your stream starts up whether they have a barcode account or not. You'll still get sniped.
It would already be bad enough playing versus barcodes normally, but then as a streamer when these people are purposely harrassing via barcodes over and over...how do i report these people or identify them to blizzard or twitch? There really is no winning here as the streamer in terms of putting an end to the harrassment from anonymous people on barcodes.
If all you care about is good, unadulterated practice, you wouldn't stream and you'd use a barcode account. When you decide to stream, the odds of you getting sniped increase.
At least if i knew their ID, i would be able to metagame them as well. Simply put, it's everything a normal player experiences but amplified because streaming the game let's people snipe my stream anonymously for an even more ridiculously unfair advantage.
Under the assumption that all people will do the same thing against you all the time, sure. Still arguing by assertion and providing zero proof other than your personal beliefs.
What do people think of this? I personally do not think the SC2 competitive ladder should allow for barcodes and something should finally be done about it.
This people thinks you should get a new barcode account, have zero friends on it, ladder without streaming on that account then truthfully report back your findings.
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Honestly, this thread reads:
"I don't have enough skill to beat someone with the tools the game gives me, so I will complain about something like anonymity because I think that will give me some modicum of an advantage."
Does a barcode player gain an advantage over a non-barcode player? Well yes of course. Knowing your opponent is part of Sun Tzu's 'Art of War'.
But is it enough of an advantage that Blizzard should do something about it? No it isn't. Every game has a chance to be different, and Sun Tzu also stated that you should always do what your opponent doesn't expect. If you are weak, you should attack. If you are strong, you should defend.
But Avilo is so predictable, that banning barcodes wouldn't even help him win more because everyone knows his playstyle isn't flexible.
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On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote:
If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O
Why do you not write in your user name what you ate and shit today? I believe I could deduce all kinds of stuff from this and hiding this from me is an UNFAIR advantage.
Nobody denies it might be an advantage, but that simply doesn't matter.
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On September 14 2017 06:52 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote:
If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O Why do you not write in your user name what you ate and shit today? I believe I could deduce all kinds of stuff from this and hiding this from me is an UNFAIR advantage. Nobody denies it might be an advantage, but that simply doesn't matter.
I ate corn today, and I shat it too. Whenever I eat corn I run Adept all-n all day.
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On September 14 2017 03:52 Guillermoman wrote:
I do agree that having barcodes is a problem at all levels of play. Even in Diamond (my level), I frequently will play an opponent several times in a row, and if that person is a barcode, the current method makes impossible to know in that instance it is a rematch, even if they use the same decal.
I would like to take a solution from online poker to solve this, and that is to give people the ability to write a personal note on the opponent. When playing online poker, you can click on a person and type a note that indicates how they play; then when you are at a table with that person again, the note stays and you can click on it to read and edit the note.
If this functionality was included in-game as well as via the match history screens, you would have your note on the opponent and then, when you play them again, have your unique note to identify playstyle used. This allows people to maintain barcode names while also helping opponents identify to some degree which is which.
This would be a good solution. There's a catch though. What you are saying is correct and consistent IF we agreed that everyone should know who they are playing and that this is a good thing. I see some people (including avilo) already assume that the IF is TRUE which is not necessarily so in my opinion.
For example some people do not want to be identified. For example maybe I don't want you to know that you played me (because otherwise you could hard counter me or whatever). Is that not an equally viable stand point? I mean the point of being barcode might just be that.
What I am saying is: we should not be discussing if we want to ban barcodes and how to do it, but rather we should discuss first what the issue really is.
And in my opinion that is:
The problem that avilo faces could also be seen as: we do not know who barcode is, but that barcode knows who avilo is. At least until now I believe this perspective makes more sense, since I haven't been convinced otherwise. I agree that there might be an opportunity to improve the game. But it would in my POV make more sense to focus on the one player (avilo here in this example) rather than all the other players. To illustrate my thoughts: Allow the player to have an anonymous ranked option or similar as opposed to reveal the match histroy of all other players. Why make a change which affects the majority, if you can make a change that only affects a minority and effectively solves the same issue?
I'm not saying this is exactly the golden solution, but I want to push the discussion in this kind of direction.
Or if avilo gets sniped a lot I like the idea of an option to veto playing certain players. This would also solve some other issues. For instance I think nobody wants to play with the people they put on their ignore lists.
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On September 14 2017 06:52 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote:
If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O Why do you not write in your user name what you ate and shit today? I believe I could deduce all kinds of stuff from this and hiding this from me is an UNFAIR advantage. Nobody denies it might be an advantage, but that simply doesn't matter.
Meaningless information is meaningless? Thank you captain obvious. :p
If you are you trying to suggest, on the other hand, that high level players don't study the replays of their regular opponents to learn what their strengths and weakness are and thus gain an advantage by knowing of them for future games, well that seems a bit naive to me.
Perhaps that's why the NA foreigners do so poorly in comparison to their EU and KR peers? :p
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For example some people do not want to be identified. For example maybe I don't want you to know that you played me (because otherwise you could hard counter me or whatever). Is that not an equally viable stand point? I mean the point of being barcode might just be that.
You wouldn't get that luxury in a tournament so why would you expect it on the Ladder?
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EPT
