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I kind of agree with Avilo at some point but there are some flaws about it
1) Like someone said this affect only 5-1% of the player base so it is not a big deal TBH and most of us couldn't really care unless our "heroes" are being troubled by it
2) It doesn't really matter if others change their nickname because your gameplay is the main problem, I mean, if you don't change builds they simply will know what to expect, and even if you read Snute or IIIIII you can be Hive Rushed with Ultras or Broods not because Snute does that but because it is even more abusable that you won't expect it from it but YOU WILL USE YOUR SAME BUILD ALWAYS
So at the end of the day I'm sorry Avilo but it is worthless and you should do what I said in point 2, use that as an advantage of people expecting something from you and then surprise them (It worked for me in my clan when Proxy Gating, they never expected something like that so I mix it sometimes).
I think we all have the freedom to chose what to do and SC2 is not a game of "I am good against that build" but mostly "I am good at adapting with my strategies", that is the reason also I dislike so much korean tournaments sometimes, because players prepare for the others instead of focusing in their own gameplay whereas DreamHack or IEM are not like that and you see how really good a player is overall.
In ladder it is even more necessary to be good vs anything thrown at you instead knowing you can get free points from few players doing the same build over and over and never scouting since you know what is coming.
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On September 12 2017 06:08 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:04 Charoisaur wrote:
Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
Dude, ladder is for making your mmr-shaped e-penis as big as possible. it's serious business
Dangit I wanted to say this but someone else beat me to it.
Really this is just another thread from avilo where he demands that everyone do what he demands because he can't come to terms with how good or bad he is as a player and he needs something else to blame for his faults. That, and/or he doesn't know how to grasp and deal with his frustrations so he comes here and makes another thread about something that really doesn't hold much water as a(n unhealthy, in my opinion) way to vent.
I've played dozens of P00pf34st420s, Killers, Machines, Cerebrates, Thralls, Raynors, and barcodes over the years and if I face one of them in the same day or same week I can usually figure out whether or not I've played them before in the time it takes the match to load by looking at their rank and their portrait and taking a second to think. But, it doesn't matter much because I know that matchmaking in SC2 is pretty damn good and I know the match is going to be fair regardless of who it is or isn't.
On September 12 2017 09:15 avilo wrote:
Personally, i'm mostly an SC2 person that's stream-focused atm rather than pro-gamer focused or tournament focused. I've used a delay before on my stream two or so times in the past, using a 5 minute delay.
---
People seem to be de-railing the thread a little bit talking about stream sniping which was just a side-note compared to the main discussion point i wanted to bring up which were barcode accounts themselves and whether or not it's fair for people to be able to use them on the ladder.
I think there's an argument for your first point here. In reality most people watch you for your (extremely poor, childish, hateful) attitude, not because you play StarCraft. Honestly, you could really thank a lot of the people who use barcodes, Swarm Hosts, snipe you on ladder, so on, because they make you act a certain way that most people tuning into your stream or clicking on reddit posts want to see, which ends up getting you more views and more people letting you do whatever it is that you do for a living.
To the other point I have quoted, they aren't totally separate things. In your argument for why barcodes should be eliminated you bring up a lot of points that people who have advocated for or caused drama over stream sniping and ghosting have made in the past, so it isn't that tangential to the topics at hand.
If people can't deal with not knowing who their opponent is, what they ate for breakfast, who they're dating, where they live, and exactly what build order they are doing in this specific match, then stop playing. StarCraft is all about not knowing anything and having to work for the information you can get in each individual match. If you face a player with a memorable username who does the same build every time and you counter them, then that's a bonus, an exception, not the standard. You're expected to never know what your opponent is doing in StarCraft.
Barcodes have never been a real problem for anyone except for the people who have nothing else to complain about. Korean players with multiple accounts use them all the time to get a few anonymous experiences on ladder for different practice they might not get otherwise. A lot of players around the world of all skill levels have also used barcode/anonymous usernames as a way to combat their ladder anxiety, something that I see as having a much bigger positive impact on the game than anything else here. More reasons why barcodes are totally fine, if not very good for the game, despite your feelings on it.
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Maybe if your opponents meta game you that hard, your strategy is bad?
Just a thought.
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^
User was warned for this post
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don't agree
you can't use barcodes for actual ladder competitions like WCS challenger or ladder heroes, other than that ladder is just for practice and banning barcodes makes it much less attractive for high level players to practice on ladder. less high level players on ladder -> harder for people outside the "old boys club" to get high level practice
also, there's nothing special about barcode names. every single player could make their name "avilo" or "pokebunny" and have the same effect, the "problem" is that names are not unique on sc2.
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On September 13 2017 12:28 Pokebunny wrote:
don't agree
you can't use barcodes for actual ladder competitions like WCS challenger or ladder heroes, other than that ladder is just for practice and banning barcodes makes it much less attractive for high level players to practice on ladder. less high level players on ladder -> harder for people outside the "old boys club" to get high level practice
also, there's nothing special about barcode names. every single player could make their name "avilo" or "pokebunny" and have the same effect, the "problem" is that names are not unique on sc2.
Exactly. Agree 100% w/ Poke. If the issue is that "I don't know what someone will do because they're a barcode" - it means that 1) you feel like everyone should be predictable enough to know that they're going to be doing the exact same thing every time.
Sure, people have builds that they're more comfortable with than others, but add some spice to your builds.
All-in-all, blizzard hasn't determined that this is an issue (or they would have fixed it), but they decided that the ability to name yourself whatever you want is more important than people having the same name. It's also extremely difficult to put this genie back in the bottle, since there are so many accounts that already HAVE those names.
Typically, if things aren't patched out after the development team has been made aware of them, then you should consider the option that what you're complaining about isn't a bug.
On September 13 2017 01:17 OPL3SA2 wrote:
I agree with Avilo.
I don't think barcodes should be allowed. The argument that you could use some other username falls flat.
I can't put a trademark or registered trademark on my username, it's a character that's not allowed. But barcodes are allowed? It makes no sense.
Personally it doesn't affect me, but there's something called empathy. You use it when you want to see something from someone else's perspective. If you don't have empathy, that's something else. That's called sociopathic, that's when you can't see things from anyone's perspective other than your own. Sometimes it's combined with enjoying seeing other people miserable. That's called sociopathology
Ryan
What on earth? We all get that avilo and several low post count accounts don't like barcodes. We can empathize with feeling bad. The issue is, that for most of us, we choose to get over certain things.
If you feel full sympathy and cave to everyone else's feelings 100% of the time, how on earth can you ever get anything done? You'll spend your entire day sitting around inside, because you might accidentally cut someone off in traffic, or you might do a bad job at work.
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Here's an idea (don't know if given before by somebody else): show an id in the menus and have it public in game history. At least for other players who stream, you'll be able to easily identify them.
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On September 13 2017 13:08 rockslave wrote:
Here's an idea (don't know if given before by somebody else): show an id in the menus and have it public in game history. At least for other players who stream, you'll be able to easily identify them.
How do you think that they would be able to know who is an SC2 streamer?
I think it would be fine to potentially show a record vs. that opponent (and the last time played), or something.
So it would say, "rockslave: 3-0 vs. reneg this season. Last match: 1 hour ago"
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On September 13 2017 13:13 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 13:08 rockslave wrote:
Here's an idea (don't know if given before by somebody else): show an id in the menus and have it public in game history. At least for other players who stream, you'll be able to easily identify them. How do you think that they would be able to know who is an SC2 streamer? I think it would be fine to potentially show a record vs. that opponent (and the last time played), or something. So it would say, "rockslave: 3-0 vs. reneg this season. Last match: 1 hour ago"
That and the idea of having notes for players that you would enter yourself and that would show during the launch screen are probably the 2 best ideas !
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How could anyone stream snipe avilo? I watched Noregret and Neeb attempt to stream snipe him for like 2 hours and they determined that it was near impossible because his games last so long and after he finishes a match he waits forever to queue up another match.
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@Clevername02: They just tried it for fun, if you really want it not too hard.
About the Thread topic I was actually impressed this game had such an set "smurf"-name.
But I do think it should be smurf/practice.
So altho this will sound very silly I could see a system where something of following happens when you create a barcode.
1. Your account can't get into Grandmaster
or
2A. Your account wount show up in ladder lists (you can get GM and everything but the list of top 100 GMs will have no barcodes)
or
2B. Barcodes can only play against other barcodes + accounts that has checked a box that they don't mind getting matched against barcodes.
Nothing will happen with this subject but thought could brainstorm alittle on it anyway.
Have a good day and take care people 
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Is this really important topic to discuss? No...
Is there more than thousands ways to hide your true ID? Yes...
Are there barcodes in other games? Yes...
Is there topic like this in other games? No...
I mean I already got banned here twice for expressing my opinions on Avilo so I will keep this short. You are just a player, you are not voice of terrans, you are not imporant enough for ppl to wait hours and hours to snipe you. Also you can hide when you are searching and just interatct with chat instead.
But honestly you blame everyone for being hacker, cheater, stream sniper... Myself included, you were offracing zerg and tried to do 2base lurker timing which were scouted and confirmed by my scouting lings and overlord, who were in the most stardard spot on that map (I belive it was overgrowth). I Obviously countered you with roach timing with +2 and you called me words in game and probably on stream aswell.. and i was just a guy laddering on NA for fun on "BARCODE"... So where am I going with this... you can use this ban logic on almost everyone you play.
Something like hidden account or a barcode is a great tool for players preparing for a tournament etc. On YOUR mmr there is no way those barcodes are doing that.
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It's not like Avilo would change his style if he knew who the opponent was, or even if they told him their build order! Barcodes are useful for pros to hide themselves when practicing for competitions, that is an important enough reason to keep them.
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On September 12 2017 19:26 avilo wrote:
Still...i have not seen one good argument in this thread that barcodes do not give an unfair information advantage on the ladder.
are u fucking serious?
.....
being terse here because this is such a non issue it's sad:
1) do general ladder games reward anything other than general practice?
>no
2) if lacking the name of the player is what is "apparently" such a loss of information that it is losing you games then perhaps you are doing something else fundamentally wrong... like... relying on such information in the first place instead of just playing better yourself...
or b) are approaching every game incorrectly (b/o etc).
>tough luck
3) in cases where ladder DOES matter (wcs) - are barcodes an issue?
>no - when you play ladder qualifier you are locked into that qualifying name and account for the event season.
tl:dr - tough shit; you're losing general ladder games. it literally means NOTHING other than that person is outplaying you.
If this 'unfair' advantage means that much to you, maybe you are doing something else wrong?
As nony has stated, ghosting is obviously cheating. That is clearly something else entirely.
also as other people mentioned: ...........there is a way to find out who barcodes are.... -_-;;
edit: was about to just start picking apart the main post; but i honestly can't be bothered to waste more time. these posts are such drivel that i find it dumbfounding they continue to pop up.
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Asside from the points made by Avilo and others who I may or may not agree with I believe the ubiquitous barcode that players use to hide their identity goes against the spirit of the Ladder's competitive nature. For one, who wants to look at a leaderboard (which is what the Ladder actually is) and see...
1. ||||||||||
2. ||||||||||
3. ||||||||||
4. ||||||||||
5. ||||||||||
6. ...
The entire point of the thing is to provide a FUN and COMPETITIVE venue for players of many caliber a place to compete for ranks. That it's not a professional tournament is like saying going down to your local bowling alley to participate in a their bowling league is irrelevant to those players because it's not the PBA championship. Even though it's unlikely professional players will be among participant, the players still care about the results. If they didn't, they wouldn't have shown up to begin with.
Likewise, if you don't care about your personal rank among your peers, to the point where hiding your identity among many other hidden identities, is part of the process, then why bother ranking anyone at all? If you don't know where among your peers you actually compare, then what's the point? Just play in an unranked queue for practice where nobody knows who they are playing nor care's who their peers are they have won or lost against.
That said, it seems that the only reason to barcode your player name is to hide your identity in order to obtain some advantage, whether that be in the game you are currently playing or in the grander scheme where pro players do not want their competition in tournaments to be able to refer to and analyze their gameplay, habits, tells, etc... Avilo's comparison to Poker is exceptionally relevant in this case because much like in poker, all else being equal, knowing your opponent is more important than your mechanical ability to play the game.
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On September 13 2017 12:43 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 12:28 Pokebunny wrote:
don't agree
you can't use barcodes for actual ladder competitions like WCS challenger or ladder heroes, other than that ladder is just for practice and banning barcodes makes it much less attractive for high level players to practice on ladder. less high level players on ladder -> harder for people outside the "old boys club" to get high level practice
also, there's nothing special about barcode names. every single player could make their name "avilo" or "pokebunny" and have the same effect, the "problem" is that names are not unique on sc2. Exactly. Agree 100% w/ Poke. If the issue is that "I don't know what someone will do because they're a barcode" - it means that 1) you feel like everyone should be predictable enough to know that they're going to be doing the exact same thing every time. Sure, people have builds that they're more comfortable with than others, but add some spice to your builds. All-in-all, blizzard hasn't determined that this is an issue (or they would have fixed it), but they decided that the ability to name yourself whatever you want is more important than people having the same name. It's also extremely difficult to put this genie back in the bottle, since there are so many accounts that already HAVE those names. Typically, if things aren't patched out after the development team has been made aware of them, then you should consider the option that what you're complaining about isn't a bug. Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 01:17 OPL3SA2 wrote:
I agree with Avilo.
I don't think barcodes should be allowed. The argument that you could use some other username falls flat.
I can't put a trademark or registered trademark on my username, it's a character that's not allowed. But barcodes are allowed? It makes no sense.
Personally it doesn't affect me, but there's something called empathy. You use it when you want to see something from someone else's perspective. If you don't have empathy, that's something else. That's called sociopathic, that's when you can't see things from anyone's perspective other than your own. Sometimes it's combined with enjoying seeing other people miserable. That's called sociopathology
Ryan What on earth? We all get that avilo and several low post count accounts don't like barcodes. We can empathize with feeling bad. The issue is, that for most of us, we choose to get over certain things. If you feel full sympathy and cave to everyone else's feelings 100% of the time, how on earth can you ever get anything done? You'll spend your entire day sitting around inside, because you might accidentally cut someone off in traffic, or you might do a bad job at work.
The issue is not that you know what they will do necessarily. The issue is there is an informational advantage/disadvantage.
The person playing on the barcode has an information advantage that they do not deserve. The person on the non-barcode has an information DISadvantage that they do not deserve.
The barcoded player has more information at their disposal before the game begins than the player not on the barcode.
I still have not seen any argument against this in this entire thread, so have most people reached the consensus that you are indeed getting an unfair advantage from using a barcode on the ladder?
A ladder should not be rewarding players with advantages before the game begins over other players for simply making their username lllllllllllllllllllll or aaaaaaaaaaaa or any other equivalent. That is not fair play for a competitive ladder.
Perhaps an actual account identifier like a few people suggested in this thread would completely eliminate the problem because then even if you play llllllllllllllllllll you'd know "oh that's so and so it shows his ID."
And @kyo in this thread, saying "are you serious?" is not an argument that says anything against the apparently obvious truth that a barcode player is getting an information advantage before the game begins versus a non-barcoded player.
Can you or someone else come up with an argument that refutes it? Probably not because i don't think there is one. The only arguments people can really seem to make are whether or not they personally are OK with people getting an unfair advantage on the ladder via using a barcode account.
Apparently some people in this thread are perfectly fine with players getting an unfair advantage on the competitive ladder. Other people are apparently not fine with players getting an unfair advantage.
Others make light of the issue completely and simply "don't care" or think "it's a big deal." And the rest of some posts are people just simply going ad hominem which are basically worthless replies to read.
From most replies that i've seen, it feels like the people that do acknowledge using a barcode gives you an unfair advantage in terms of information disparity between yourself and the opponent...most of these replies are suggesting that blizzard make some way to identify barcodes either via a player ID, letting you make a note on them that shows in loading screen, or something of that nature.
The poker analogy is the best analogy for how being anonymous or on a barcode in SC2's case creates an unfair advantage. If you were playing at a poker table in real life, every player is there at the table, you see who they are, they can't hide their identity and come back to the table again as an unknown person.
If they were able to do that, it would create a massive advantage for them because they would come back to the poker table knowing who you are, what hands you like to play, how you like to play, your tendencies, tells, etc. Yet, you would have no idea this was the same guy at the table 5 minutes ago.
It's an informational disadvantage and breaks the competitive spirit of the game. It's the same way on the SC2 ladder with barcodes.
If Blizzard is going to not allow barcodes in competitive WCS and qualifiers, they certainly should not be allowing it on their competitive (?) ladder. As Zeniths above me posted - knowing your opponent in poker or SC2 is a huge fucking deal, and can have a huge effect on the game just having a few pieces of information over them.
People are really turning a blind eye here that think it's ok in a game as deep and psychological as SC2 to think it's fair to be able to use barcode accounts for a free information advantage on a competitive ladder. SC2 and SC1 have never only been about sheer mechanics or keyboard and mouse - probably over 50% of the game is your mind versus your opponent's and the psychology intertwined there.
p.s. again for all the posters going full ad hominem, the thread has nothing to do with stream sniping. When myself, you, your buddy, whoever is not streaming and gets on the ladder and plays versus a barcode streaming has nothing to do with the informational disadvantage you are playing the game at. This may not be as relevant in diamond and below, but in masters/GM it is especially relevant because you've probably played many of the same players multiple times or know who people are by their usernames.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Can you give me an example why this competitive ladder actually matters?
Because the only time ladder matters are qualifiers and there are barcodes forbidden thus all the other players have to use their nonbarcode account and they will play against barcodes too.
So the impact is pretty negligible.
So, excuse my ignorance, but do you or anyone else get money based on their rank, MMR or something else on daily basis? How is the competitive ladder so much important when it's not important at all. FFS ranked players play vs unranked!! That's how competitively valid it is.
(unless Blizzard changed it in the last year and I seriously doubt it)
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Post the replay and maybe someone can help you out?
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On September 13 2017 22:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Can you give me an example why this competitive ladder actually matters?
Because the only time ladder matters are qualifiers and there are barcodes forbidden thus all the other players have to use their nonbarcode account and they will play against barcodes too.
So the impact is pretty negligible.
So, excuse my ignorance, but do you or anyone else get money based on their rank, MMR or something else on daily basis? How is the competitive ladder so much important when it's not important at all. FFS ranked players play vs unranked!! That's how competitively valid it is.
(unless Blizzard changed it in the last year and I seriously doubt it)
Again, you don't make any argument contesting that barcodes give an unfair advantage to players. So you and others seem to acknowledge it's an unfair advantage, but you are either fine or in the "idc" camp of letting them stay on the ladder.
Whether you personally care whether a competitive ladder matters or not has nothing to do with the information disadvantage a player has when they play versus a barcode account.
Claiming it's negligible, or doesn't matter, or this that does not change the fact that barcodes give a free information advantage before the game begins.
The barcode knows who he is playing versus, the other player does not.
Now, if you want to go off on a tangent and make a thread about "Why does a competitive ladder matter?" that's perfectly fine i'm pretty sure everyone that has a teamliquid account can tell you why competition matters in a competitive e-sport, as well as why integrity and fairness matters.
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Can you give me an example why this competitive ladder actually matters?
If it doesn't matter, then why play it or, more importantly, get upset about a suggested rule where you're username needs to be unique in order to promote a fair venue for competition?
It matter just as much as playing on your junior varsity team in high school, because it's something you have decided to participate in and it matters to those players. That you aren't a pro players in the GSL is irrelevant the the participants on the ladder who are competing for rank.
If it doesn't matter to you, or others, thats cool, don't play, but that doesn't diminish the relevance to those who do.
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EPT
