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Korea Weekly - August 6th - GSL Group Selections

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Korea Weekly - August 6th - GSL Group Selections

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
Graphics byshiroiusagi
August 6th, 2017 16:29 GMT
  • Korea Weekly
  • Weekly Focus
  • Recognising Greatness


The Weekly Preview

by Mizenhauer
[image loading] - Mizenhauer


The last two weeks have brought fans some of the best Starcraft of 2017. IEM Shanghai and GSL vs The World have pitted the best in the world, foreigner and Korean alike, in spectacles that lived up to their billing. But now, the focus shifts back to Korea. With those remaining in GSL busy selecting their opponents for the Round of 16, the community is given a moment of relative respite. This week’s edition of SSL Premier is the lone Premier event of the week. The competition has already rounded its halfway point, with a trio of Protoss rising to the top. At 4-1, (P)Stats, (P)Classic and (P)Dear are representing their race far better than (P)sOs and (P)Zest did a season earlier. They won’t be able to rest on their laurels, though. There’s still plenty of Starcraft to be played and a single slip up could spell disaster, even for those at the top of the table.


Dear vs aLive

The first match of the day features two of the less heralded players in the competition and the only two to have never made an SSL finals. At first glance, the matchup appears to be tilted in Dear's favor. He’s defeated (T)Maru and (T)INnoVation this season, losing only once in the process, a game he very easily could have won if not for INnoVation’s last gasp push. (T)aLive had a respectable campaign in Season 1, even after forfeiting in the early stages, but struggled out of the gates. He has won two in a row, however, and should present a formidable roadblock for Dear who will be looking to cement his place at the top of the standings.


Classic vs Dark

This battle between ex-teammates would have heavily favored (Z)Dark this time last year, but now it’s Classic who is enjoying prosperous form. But it’s still a rather muddled situation. Classic has long been considered one of the best PvZ’ers in Korea, but he’s stumbled a bit in recent times. He’s lost his last two meetings against Dark and has dropped matches to (Z)Leenock, (Z)Losira and (Z)Impact since the beginning of June. Dark is in a similar boat. His ZvP was at an elite level for much of 2017, but his SSL losses were at the hands of (P)herO and Stats. Both Dark and Classic are still very much in the picture for BlizzCon and will be looking to build momentum going into the latter stages of the Premier’s round robin to grab much needed points.


Maru vs Solar

Maru and (Z)Solar are both lacking an identity at the moment. Maru’s aura of mystique and nigh invincibility has faded in recent times as his playstyle has failed to adjust to LotV. His PvZ fell off a cliff quite some time ago. His TvT is far from where it was in 2016 and even his TvZ has been lacking as of late. It’s hard to gauge his form in the matchup given his relative inactivity, but his loss to Solar in GSL will do little to inspire confidence among his fans. Meanwhile Solar finds himself among a scrum of players struggling for the final BlizzCon spots. He’s been thoroughly inconsistent in 2017, something that must come as a disappointment given that he was on his way to a Starleague title this time last year. Both players have posted 2-3 marks thus far and are in dire need of a victory should they have aspirations of making the playoffs. It many only be week six, but these two already find themselves in a do or die situation.


Stats vs INnoVation

It’s only been a few days since INnoVation 3-0’d Stats in the last incarnation of this developing feud, but Stats will have to gather his courage to face the newly crowned GSL vs The World champion once more. The defeat had to have been a demoralizing one for Stats, a player who surely aspires to be best player in the world. The distance between him and INnoVation was startling and evidence that Stats has a long way to go if he wants to regain the position he held back in March. His 4-1 record and +5 map score is the best in the tournament, but a 2-0 loss could thrust him back among the pack. He is yet to play (Z)ByuL and herO, the two at the bottom off the standings, but a loss here could still be damning. A win on the other hand and he does more than save face. Despite breezing through the marathon weekender, INnoVation might have a hard time refocusing after his victory. Should Stats take advantage of that complacency, he could go a ways towards restoring his confidence.


ByuL vs herO

Mired in ninth place is herO, a player many thought would be challenging for another SSL title when this tournament begin. After a dominating run in the first season of Challenge, he’s had a difficult time piecing everything together in Premier. His form hasn’t necessarily dipped—his finals berth at IEM Shanghai is evidence of that—but for whatever reason success elsewhere hasn’t translated to this event. The only person he’s outpacing at the moment is ByuL who may have made the playoffs last season, but has yet to log a victory so far this season. He has managed as many game wins as herO and 2-3 aLive, but that hasn’t helped him climb the standings. ByuL was a trendy pick for top Zerg earlier this year, but since then he’s looked anything but. BlizzCon is an impossibility for him at this point and he’s out of GSL, which means Premier should be his sole concern. He’s all but eliminated from the postseason, but a full recovery could see him finish out of the bottom three and potentially earn him a spot in the as-yet unannounced next iteration of Premier. ByuL’s 2017 has been a year of squandered chances and unfulfilled potential. He still has time to set a better course, however, and steer himself towards a brighter 2018.


Weekly Schedule:

Mon - SSL Premier - Dear vs aLive / Classic vs Dark / Maru vs Solar / Stats vs INnoVation / ByuL vs herO
Wed - GSL Ro.16 Group Selection
Sat - SSL Challenge - sOs vs soO / ByuN vs Hush / Patience vs jjakji / Zest vs Rogue





GSL Group Selection

by Mizenhauer
[image loading] - Mizenhauer

GSL vs The World turned out to be every bit the spectacle the community was hoping for. But now, with many of the foreigners on flights back to their home countries, fans turn their eyes to an all Korean affair once more. Amid a brief lull, this week’s highlight has to be the group selection for the GSL Round of 16. GSL group nominations are a time honored and supremely entertaining event. First and foremost, they give players an opportunity to step beyond their normally reserved public personas and display their sense of humor. The jovial environment offers fans a glimpse into friendships and rivalries, relationships would otherwise be buried from the public eye. But it can’t be underestimated that it’s a chance to see how players rate their contemporaries instead of members of the community (this includes writers) selling their less educated views. Most of all, group nominations mean that the Round of 16 is drawing ever closer as the players vie to be the final GSL champion of 2016.

For VSL, we did a mock draft, but this time around we’ll resign ourselves to sorting the players into three tiers in hopes of determining who might go when. The first will be players who should be snapped up early as players seek to pad their groups (aka pulling a (P)herO). The second is made up of the overwhelming majority of the players. The Korean scene is so tightly contested right now that any of them are as likely to top a group as drop out 0-2. Lastly, we have those to avoid at any cost. Players expected to 4-0 their group and knock even the most talented player out of the event. It should be noted that soO and GuMiho are very likely seeded players going into this process, thereby making them immune to selection, but they will be included with the other fourteen anyway.


Must Picks

(P)Hurricane
Hurricane managed to get out of his group with wins over Ryung and Scarlett, but overall it’s been a quiet year of the once FXO Protoss. His last GSL appearance prior to this season was way back in 2016. It’s hard to take him too seriously given that he missed out on qualifying for the following two seasons and should be one of the first, if not the first, selected.

(P)sOs
Grouping sOs with Hurricane might seem like an affront to the two time WCS champion, but ever since he lost to soO way back in the Season 1 semifinals, sOs has looked a far cry from his once triumphant self. He’s struggled to nail down an effective playstyle in recent months with his traditional hijinks have failing to bear fruit more often than not. sOs is always capable of an upset, but his form at GSL vs The World should give his contemporaries few reasons to believe that’s a likely result.

(P)Patience
If there’s one word to describe Patience’s 2017, it would be unimpressive. Patience ended 2016 on a high note, but suffered a drastic dip in form following his HSC 14 victory. He failed to qualify for season 1 of GSL and made a poor account of himself in season 2, as well as during his virgin SSL Premier campaign. Back in Challenge, Patience did manage to top his Round of 32 group, but that appears to be a minor victory in a year in which Patience has struggled just to put one foot in front of the other.

(T)Bunny
Bunny may be on fire as of late, but it’s hard to consider him a really outstanding talent among this mine laden field. He’s 3-0 in SSL Challenge, but none of those wins are particularly impressive. sOs and Patience are far from elite Protoss and beating soO is hardly an achievement for a Terran these days. He managed to get out of his GSL group on the back of a pair of victories over Dear, but his real problem has been a lack of quality wins by which to measure him against the type of adversaries still in the tournament. Will he prove to be a big fish in a small pond or can those positive results translate against elite competition? This is the question everyone, including the players, will be asking themselves as the groups take shape.


The Pack

(T)GuMiho
It’s been a swift fall from grace for the Season 2 champ. The fans didn’t think highly enough of him to vote him into GSL vs the World and he showed why he didn’t belong at there with a shocking 0-2 at Shanghai. When one takes into account a premature exit at HSC (albeit to the eventual champion, Zest) GuMiho looks less and less like the all conquering hero that stomped over soO a little over a month ago. Whether he retains that aura in the eyes of his peers will go a long way to determine how early he is selected.

(Z)soO
soO can’t beat Terran. In fact, he has to be the one player every Terran is most hoping to see in their group. soO has been elite in the other matchups, though, and judging by past seasons, should be a seeded player. If he is, he’ll need to avoid selecting Terrans and players who will pick them. If he isn’t, he’ll need to pray that god takes mercy on him or he manages to come to some sort of epiphany as to how to play the matchup. It’s a sad state when one of the best players in the world completely flounders against one race, but soO’s troubles could very well prove to be one of the most compelling dynamics of the selection.

(T)aLive
aLive was all the rage earlier this year, posting a pair of massive victories over INnoVation on the way to a 2nd and 3rd place finish at the Super Tournament and Katowice respectively. He’s been far more subdued since April, though. So much so that one can hardly remember how he came one win away from making the quarterfinals in Season 2 or how he finished one spot out of the postseason in Premier. aLive is invisible once more, but he likely won’t be forgotten by his potential opponents. Expect him to go in the first half of things, but know that his group members will be very leery of him.

(T)ByuN
ByuN is not the ByuN of 2016, but he is still a tremendously talented player. He is absolutely top notch in some respects, so much so that he covers up some glaring weakness such as defensive multitasking and splitting. ByuN has struggled a bit as of late, but he’s always a threat and cannot be discounted. Zergs have largely figured out the three rax reaper opening, but ByuN’s version just operates on another level. He’s a headache to play against in the other two matchups and could very well be one of the last players selected.

(Z)Solar
Solar is another player who’s been on a downswing since the latter portion of 2016. He delivered on years of unrealized potential with his SSL victory, but since then he’s gone back to showing flashes of brilliance rather than delivering consistent results. Solar has yet to reach the a GSL quarterfinals since doing so twice in 2014 and, while he certainly possesses the skill to break the streak, it reminds to be seen if he’ll be able to make due on his phenomenal ability.

(Z)Dark
Dark looked formidable against Nerchio, but was far less than that against his former teammate, soO. Domestic ZvZ has almost been as big a problem for Dark and he looks to have gotten no closer to figuring the matchup out after losses to Rogue and soO in back to back weeks. Dark is more than likely the best late game Zerg in Korea, but he’s failed far too often in other stages of the game to even get close to replicating his play in 2016, when he was the best player in the world from start to finish. Always a threat, but rarely lethal, Dark might not have to wait that long before his name is called.

(P)herO
herO looked to be on top of the world. After winning the Super Tournament and SSL Challenge, he had to be considered one of the favorites going into Shanghai, and he delivered on the hype with a second place finish. He was utterly unable to build upon those performance this past weekend, however, as he was summarily dismissed by Stats without winning a game. On top of that, his 1-4 mark in SSL Premier is less than inspiring, showing a player who might not be as big a threat as everyone thought. It will be a big risk for a player to bank on herO beginning a downswing, but betting right could pay off in spades.

(P)Stats
Stats has been a bit mercurial as of late, but there’s no denying that fact that when he’s in form, as he has been quite often, he is a top five player in Korea. He made mincemeat of herO at GSL vs The World and showed resiliency by coming back from behind to take down MajOr. He eventually ran into the buzz saw that is INnoVation, but all in all, the tournament was a real success given how poorly he represented himself at IEM Shanghai. Stats deserves to be the leader in the WCS Korea points standings and, despite his relative inconsistencies as of late, should be one of the last players to be selected.

(T)TY
TY’s second place finish at GSL vs The World demands respect, but it can’t be ignored that he looked vulnerable along the way. Beating Neeb 3-2 was a far cry from the authoritative performance the Splyce Terran surely wanted to deliver. Dropping a game to the incomprehensibly bad soO was a further sign of weakness. To top it all off, he didn’t even manage to steal a map from INnoVation, appearing more doormat than anything else as INnoVation casually ascended to the throne. TY has exhibited an aptitude for grinding out ugly wins this year; something which will not be overlooked by his potential opponents. But the fact remains that TY can be beaten and has lost time and again when ahead in a series. It’s for this reason that TY will go far earlier in the draft than the man he lost to at GSL vs The World.


Avoid like the Plague

(T)INnoVation
The bottom line is that no one wants to play against INnoVation. He’s in imperious form as of late. In victories he’s unstoppable. In losses he still looks megalithic. As the undisputed best player in Korea, INnoVation should almost certainly be the last player chosen. There’s also a great chance that he becomes the focal piece of the final player swap. Keep an eye as the groups as they take shape. Previously he might have been inserted into a group of Terrans, but, having apparently remedied his TvT woes, that won’t be an option any longer. One of the biggest questions going into the emotions will be who is be brave enough to draft the machine into their group? Brave? Foolish sounds more accurate.

(Z)Rogue
Rogue’s on top of the world right now. He was the first player to reach the Round of 16. The first Korean Zerg to win a Premier event in 2017 and is now looking to parlay those results into a second trip to Blizzcon. He reached the semifinals in 2015, but back then he wasn’t viewed as a serious contender and was swiftly bounced from the event by the eventual champion, sOs. This incarnation of Rogue looks to be more powerful than any that came before it, though. No longer just the Zerg on ladder with 7k mmr, Rogue is without a doubt one of the favorites to win the third season of GSL. One should expect him to be chosen very late, maybe even last.

(P)Classic
Rewind a few weeks and Classic is nearly universally viewed as one of the hottest players in the game. He followed up his season 2 semifinal run by topping his GSL group and getting off to a quick start in SSL Premier. Moving into group nominations, Classic is still tearing up SSL with a 4-1 mark, but has fallen off of people’s radars a bit. He did not have the luxury of competing in Shanghai or GSL vs The World and so the spotlight has strayed. Players aren’t as fickle as fans, though. They won’t forget that Classic is one of the best in terms of preparation. Given a week or more to plan for a group, his potency increases a hundredfold, making him one of the most dangerous players among the sixteen remaining.



Recognising Greatness

by Mizenhauer
[image loading] - Mizenhauer

I’m still trying to wrap my head around it. As I drove to the supermarket it was all I could think about. (T)INnoVation has won GSL vs The World. The argument against him being the best player of all time is growing thinner and thinner. I don’t want to admit it, but I’m starting to resign myself that he very well could be. He is an ascendant talent. A player who makes terms like generational seem mild praise. He is far and away the strongest player in the world right now and shows no signs of letting up. Then why can’t I shake this knot in my gut? Even as he presents a case anyone would struggle to refute. Because ultimately, I just don’t like INnoVation.

GSL vs The World was INnoVation’s seventh Premier event title. It’s not just that he won it. It’s how he won it. He hardly missed a beat on his way to the title. He trampled former champions and upstarts alike, making some of the best players in the world look helpless. He was brutality incarnate. No one even got close to matching him.

Bonjwa used to mean something. Over the years it’s been reduced to a nebulous term used to describe a player being the best in the world for an extended period of time. I want it to mean something more; something like what it used to, something that transcended wins and losses. But after INnoVation’s performance, I can’t help ask the question, even though I’ve made up in my mind that there will never be a bonjwa in Starcraft; if I wasn’t so stubborn, would INnoVation be that man?

He showed promise before even coming to Starcraft 2. Under the guise of Bogus he was thrust into the public eye as someone who could one day achieve greatness. He made his Starcraft 2 debut in 2012, winning the 2013 WCS finals within a year of his first match. Since then it’s been the same story, INnoVation may rise and fall, but he always wins. If one needs evidence of that, they need only look at his records in finals. At 7-2 he is the undisputed king of the greatest stage.

Then what is it I don’t like about INnoVation? Sure I hate the way his fans prop him up as a veritable god, but that’s nothing against him. I should love his mechanical prowess. Marvel at his sense for strategy and planning. I should nod approvingly at the impassive way in which he carries himself. Then why not?

I think it’s because INnoVation is such a unique case. His results have come over such a long period of time, but they have arisen in such a manner that it would be a simple task to call him the ultimate patch Terran. INnoVation’s contemporary, (T)Maru defies the state of the game. He wins with regularity when Terran is disadvantaged, triumphing when the deck is stacked against him. INnoVation doesn’t do that. That’s not where his strengths lie. It’s not just about buffs and nerfs for the Machine. It’s not Terran’s strength that dictates his level of success. It’s something far less visible. INnoVation isn’t good when Terran is good. INnoVation is good when the strongest elements of Terran play align with his strengths.

INnoVation is the master of optimization. He is king of the parade push and when the map pool features solid staging grounds for patient attacks and easy rally points, he elevates the strategy to another level. He exploits flavor of the month strategies better than anyone else. I can’t stand this about him, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect it. His ability to quickly grasp and improve strategies is part of the reason he’s been able to adjust to changing map pools and metagames and a crucial part of being a highly successful player. He is able to figure out the ideal style of play while other players are floundering. Sure Terran might be strong right now with their near infinite openings and powerful pushes that feature mines, tanks and liberators. Sure INnoVation was good when hellbats were overturned. Sure he was one of the many Terrans to experience success after the fall of the blink era. But why can’t I embrace that fact and stop trying to label him as some charlatan because he couldn’t buy a win in Korea during the first half of 2014 or his first year of LotV. Maybe I just need to stop fighting it.

I’m not going to admit that INnoVation is better than (T)Mvp. Though their results are comparative, I don’t think INnoVation will ever approach Mvp’s significance to Starcraft 2. And I’m not hiding behind the veil of “TL writer”, and our oft accused efforts to diminish INnoVation. I’m saying this as myself so all the blame lies with me. I, Mizenhauer, don’t like INnoVation and I never will. But that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate him for what he is: one of the greatest players to have ever played the game.





Korea Weekly: Mizenhauer
Focus: Mizenhauer
Editorial: Mizenhauer
Graphics: shiroiusagi
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TL+ Member
Boggyb
Profile Joined January 2017
2855 Posts
August 06 2017 16:52 GMT
#2
I'm going to dispute the idea that INnoVation is the undisputed best player in Korea at the moment. Rogue looked like an absolute monster at IEM Shanghai and if you include group stages, his run there was more impressive than Inno's at GSL vs. the World. Since GSL vs. the World invites were based on popularity rather than merit, we didn't have a chance for Rogue to follow that up, so we'll have to wait for GSL where ideally they settle the issue in the GSL finals.
jpoiv
Profile Joined April 2013
15 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-06 19:21:42
August 06 2017 19:21 GMT
#3
Innovation a patch terran? Are you for real? Innovation CREATES the Terran meta. He has, essentially, for years, defined optimized Terran play. This meme that his name is ironic actually couldn't be more wrong: that he finds holes in the meta is precisely demonstrative of his INNOVATIVE genius. Those aren't just exploits. They are leaps and avenues only he sees, or at least sees first. That you don't like it is another story. Maybe you want sc2 to be something other than it is.

The "machine" is a formidable nickname but it's not for lack of creativity that he should be considered as such... A more nuanced and long range definition is needed. Innovation in starcraft, as shown by the player, is the brutalist machine grind to one's personal sense of perfectionist rhythm. Repetition, and in that conviction a state of progress may develop... That is what Inno provides. As character, the systematic and exact definition of his style being exactly declared in his namesake. Innovation done by means of exact and formal simplification, a set of movements refined and further refined until they take on the spastic quality of style -- PROGRESS. Like repeating one kick one thousand times until the kick is rendered unique, because it is more efficient, cleaner, and faster than any other kick, and could be done by no one else. It's form might appear similar, but it isn't.



gab12
Profile Joined June 2016
Poland147 Posts
August 06 2017 19:53 GMT
#4
love this korea weekly ^^
Diabolique
Profile Joined June 2015
Czech Republic5118 Posts
August 06 2017 19:58 GMT
#5
Group Selection on Wednesday will be sick.
Does anyone know, who will be the four group leaders, or how are they chosen?
sOs | Rogue | Maru | Trap | Scarlett | Snute | MC
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-06 20:08:17
August 06 2017 20:07 GMT
#6
On August 07 2017 04:58 Diabolique wrote:
Group Selection on Wednesday will be sick.
Does anyone know, who will be the four group leaders, or how are they chosen?

The normal rule is top 4 of the previous Code S, which would be GuMiho, soO, Maru and Classic. But Maru didn't make Ro16 this season, so his spot goes to someone else. Which should be the player with the most "GSL points", but no idea who that is. Probably Stats since he won season 1.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
August 06 2017 20:37 GMT
#7
Inno the patch Terran. Stuchiu is proud of you.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15905 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-06 20:42:19
August 06 2017 20:40 GMT
#8
Hate to hear this Inno is only good when terran is good bullshit.
When Inno is doing well, terran automatically looks strong, he makes terran look strong.
If Inno would have performed well in 2016 then there would have been 3 good performing terrans in korea (Inno, Byun, TY) and people would have considered that a terran dominated era too.

Also Mvp won the majority of his tournaments during GomTvT.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15905 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-06 20:41:56
August 06 2017 20:41 GMT
#9
fuck, quote instead of edit
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
August 06 2017 21:40 GMT
#10
Good stuff mizenhauer, writing all the articles this week :O

Especially the piece on inno is interesting imo, i still disagree with the argument that he is extremely dependant on balance, if anything that works for most people. Ofc you do better when your race is strong.
When i look at Innovation now i basically see the complete player or as close as you can get in sc2. Incredible macro game but also mixes in tricky builds here and there. He might not be as flashy as maru but his gameplay is still entertaining when matched against worthy opponents (game two vs TY, wow).
TvT was his weakness before, now it seems more than fixed. His TvP against macro toss seems incredibly strong as well, his TvZ is almost invincible. Definitely THE favorite for any tournament he enters. He surely wins at least one of GSL/SSL, if everything allignes perfectly maybe even both. GLHF guys, this is Innovation's era
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
ZertoN
Profile Joined February 2014
Germany214 Posts
August 06 2017 22:33 GMT
#11
appreciate the honesty in this article.
"I don't like games that i need to think a lot, i am not interested in those games." - TaeJa, 2016
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
August 07 2017 03:56 GMT
#12
Nice for a TL writer to open up so frankly.

But also goes to show how deep prejudices and emotional attachment can run.

Don't think Inno can ever match MVP's greatness? It's only an opinion, but is there a good reason for saying that? Inno has not shown signs of eternal slumping. SC2 is still alive (barely, some may say). If history is any guide, Inno will go on to win more titles. He may not have surpassed MVP yet, but he's coming close. So why bet against him in the face of compelling evidence otherwise?

Again, it's your opinion. But it reeks of envy and nostalgia. That the "MVP is GOAT" fact is sealed and immutable. That writers such as yourself will find every margin of discretion to change the narrative to suit this "fact".

No record stays unbroken. The beauty of sports is seeing new legends being made. Roger Federer. Magnus Carlsen.

The obsession of MVP has to stop, because it shows that some fans prefer to see SC2 as a game as it once was, not what it can become.

For SC2 to grow, we must stop living in the past.
gg no re thx
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
August 07 2017 05:25 GMT
#13
On August 07 2017 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:
Hate to hear this Inno is only good when terran is good bullshit.
When Inno is doing well, terran automatically looks strong, he makes terran look strong.
If Inno would have performed well in 2016 then there would have been 3 good performing terrans in korea (Inno, Byun, TY) and people would have considered that a terran dominated era too.

Also Mvp won the majority of his tournaments during GomTvT.


Taeja would be the biggest counter-example to this. Taeja mostly did well when terran was at its weakest.
AzAlexZ
Profile Joined September 2016
Australia3303 Posts
August 07 2017 08:50 GMT
#14
On August 07 2017 14:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2017 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:
Hate to hear this Inno is only good when terran is good bullshit.
When Inno is doing well, terran automatically looks strong, he makes terran look strong.
If Inno would have performed well in 2016 then there would have been 3 good performing terrans in korea (Inno, Byun, TY) and people would have considered that a terran dominated era too.

Also Mvp won the majority of his tournaments during GomTvT.


Taeja would be the biggest counter-example to this. Taeja mostly did well when terran was at its weakest.

in weaker regions though
Faker is the GOAT!
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15905 Posts
August 07 2017 09:03 GMT
#15
On August 07 2017 14:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2017 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:
Hate to hear this Inno is only good when terran is good bullshit.
When Inno is doing well, terran automatically looks strong, he makes terran look strong.
If Inno would have performed well in 2016 then there would have been 3 good performing terrans in korea (Inno, Byun, TY) and people would have considered that a terran dominated era too.

Also Mvp won the majority of his tournaments during GomTvT.


Taeja would be the biggest counter-example to this. Taeja mostly did well when terran was at its weakest.

Yeah but the only two periods where terran was doing so badly that Inno performing well wouldn't have skewed the perception of terran being bad are the blink era and BL/Infestor.
BL/Infestor happened shortly after Inno switched and he was still one of the best terrans.
During the blink era he was performing badly, yes, but the blink era happened during his stunt on acer so that has probably a lot to do with it.

The biggest counter-argument to this Inno=patchterran stupidity is that he was the only terran GSL finalist in HotS.
If terran was so strong why did nobody else manage to reach a GSL final?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
GumBa
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United Kingdom31935 Posts
August 07 2017 15:31 GMT
#16
On August 07 2017 18:03 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2017 14:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On August 07 2017 05:40 Charoisaur wrote:
Hate to hear this Inno is only good when terran is good bullshit.
When Inno is doing well, terran automatically looks strong, he makes terran look strong.
If Inno would have performed well in 2016 then there would have been 3 good performing terrans in korea (Inno, Byun, TY) and people would have considered that a terran dominated era too.

Also Mvp won the majority of his tournaments during GomTvT.


Taeja would be the biggest counter-example to this. Taeja mostly did well when terran was at its weakest.

Yeah but the only two periods where terran was doing so badly that Inno performing well wouldn't have skewed the perception of terran being bad are the blink era and BL/Infestor.
BL/Infestor happened shortly after Inno switched and he was still one of the best terrans.
During the blink era he was performing badly, yes, but the blink era happened during his stunt on acer so that has probably a lot to do with it.

The biggest counter-argument to this Inno=patchterran stupidity is that he was the only terran GSL finalist in HotS.
If terran was so strong why did nobody else manage to reach a GSL final?

Dream made 2 SSL finals which has to count for something. And Polt did well in wcs etc. But yeah inno was the only gsl finalist.
To all the haters: you deserve to witness many, many more Serral victories, worthy of the godlike player he is.
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
August 07 2017 16:03 GMT
#17
I've never been biased beyond making jokes. All I did was use this to judge players. That's it.

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/482944-the-process-of-creating-the-top-15-greatest-list
Moderator
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
August 07 2017 16:17 GMT
#18
Everyone is biased to some extent. You say you basically quanified the best players at each moment in sc2 history to rank the tournament runs accordingly. Sorry but that's not something one simply does, this step alone is extremely prone to bias.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
August 07 2017 16:22 GMT
#19
Another way to say it is I was consistent. I put out the criteria out there and always judged accordingly, that's all.
Moderator
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
August 07 2017 16:31 GMT
#20
But that's not true. The only thign "consistent" was that you are the one who judges who is top5/10 etc in the world at each moment. So all your biases towards certain things might be consistent but i am not even sure if that would be true.
A simple example would be taeja, i am sure you would have him as top5 terran at basically every point and sometimes the reasoning would probably be something like "look at his gameplay" (aka lategame control, simply liking his style of play, etc).
I think judging each tournament run on its own (of every player ever) is simply not doable without an extremely sophisticated elo system or something similar. You basically argue you did just that.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-07 16:36:31
August 07 2017 16:36 GMT
#21
It was never his style of play, it was the results and the players he beat.

But anyway this is a waste of time as your assume I must have bad criteria because I came to a different conclusion.
Moderator
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-07 16:54:53
August 07 2017 16:47 GMT
#22
Just asking because it isn't quite clear, you supposedly look at the whole spectrum of results right? So even a ro8 finish for example matters? And even for these ro8 finishes you added context by looking at the path?

Well typically i wouldn't do that because it is flawed, but you stated that Innovation isn't even close to being considered, that seems extremely ridiculous so the only conclusion i can have is that your system is bad. (or rather the execution)

edit: but yes criteria like:

"Then I judged Innovation and refinement. What builds/styles did a player innovate (in the sense that he was the first to do a build consistently, players credited that player with the build and/or players copied him after he had done it - like Stephano and the 3 hatch) Then there was refinement. Nestea created and refined Muta ling/bling, but DRG took that refinement a step further than that. Generally I had to measure the degrees of refinement and innovation"

A lot of your criteria works like that btw, extremely subjective ratings nobody can be sure you were consistent on by any means. I mean:
Then I added in X factors for each player: Clutch, composure, versatility, play style, series planning.

You wanna tell me you can rate each players reasonably. How much did these things matter? For Inno to not be even close to consideration i can only imagine that all these subjective things (so not results) play against him. I would love to hear your reasoning, simply linking your blog and pretending that is an argument is weak.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
August 07 2017 16:50 GMT
#23
How is using subjective variables (such as meta and runs) being objective? Unless, of course, you actually use hard numbers to quantify them (ELO of players to assess difficulty of runs, race matchup win rates for meta, etc.).

And even if u did devise such a methodology, are you catching too many irrelevant data or missing out on other equally important unverifiable meta data that renders reliance on such data alone unreliable (e.g. Inno had a solid run in Tournament X, but his ELO high opponents were unwell and not performing to their usual standards)?

Using such a methodology to tennis, there's a high chance that Djokovic and Nadal could actually rank higher as Federer as GOAT (they won more Grand Slams against each other, whilst Federer nick a lot of wins against 'weaker' opponent before their peak era). Which is, regardless subjective or objective, quite a hard opinion to sell.
gg no re thx
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15905 Posts
August 07 2017 17:34 GMT
#24
On August 08 2017 01:03 stuchiu wrote:
I've never been biased beyond making jokes. All I did was use this to judge players. That's it.

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/482944-the-process-of-creating-the-top-15-greatest-list

a quote from that blog
Basically for me it was all about context, the runs, the metas, who they played, how the played and the degrees therewithin.

so basically bias
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Alarak'smanservant
Profile Joined May 2017
35 Posts
August 07 2017 20:42 GMT
#25
Sorry what? Inno was only underperforming during the blink era. During bl/infestor he was doing pretty damn well, so no he is not only strong when terran is strong.
BitbyBit is mathematically the greatest player of all time
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
August 07 2017 23:07 GMT
#26
On August 08 2017 05:42 Alarak'smanservant wrote:
Sorry what? Inno was only underperforming during the blink era. During bl/infestor he was doing pretty damn well, so no he is not only strong when terran is strong.


Also last year.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15905 Posts
August 07 2017 23:08 GMT
#27
On August 08 2017 08:07 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 05:42 Alarak'smanservant wrote:
Sorry what? Inno was only underperforming during the blink era. During bl/infestor he was doing pretty damn well, so no he is not only strong when terran is strong.


Also last year.

Terran wasn't performing badly last year
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
August 07 2017 23:12 GMT
#28
On August 08 2017 08:07 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 05:42 Alarak'smanservant wrote:
Sorry what? Inno was only underperforming during the blink era. During bl/infestor he was doing pretty damn well, so no he is not only strong when terran is strong.


Also last year.

Last year was League year for Inno. Nothing to do with balance or patches or even Starcraft.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
August 07 2017 23:20 GMT
#29
On August 08 2017 08:08 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 08:07 Phredxor wrote:
On August 08 2017 05:42 Alarak'smanservant wrote:
Sorry what? Inno was only underperforming during the blink era. During bl/infestor he was doing pretty damn well, so no he is not only strong when terran is strong.


Also last year.

Terran wasn't performing badly last year


Yeah but Inno was.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15905 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-07 23:41:45
August 07 2017 23:40 GMT
#30
On August 08 2017 08:20 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 08:08 Charoisaur wrote:
On August 08 2017 08:07 Phredxor wrote:
On August 08 2017 05:42 Alarak'smanservant wrote:
Sorry what? Inno was only underperforming during the blink era. During bl/infestor he was doing pretty damn well, so no he is not only strong when terran is strong.


Also last year.

Terran wasn't performing badly last year


Yeah but Inno was.

Yes but that doesn't support the argument that Inno can't win when terran is weak because terran wasn't weak.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
August 08 2017 00:22 GMT
#31
On August 08 2017 08:40 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 08:20 Phredxor wrote:
On August 08 2017 08:08 Charoisaur wrote:
On August 08 2017 08:07 Phredxor wrote:
On August 08 2017 05:42 Alarak'smanservant wrote:
Sorry what? Inno was only underperforming during the blink era. During bl/infestor he was doing pretty damn well, so no he is not only strong when terran is strong.


Also last year.

Terran wasn't performing badly last year


Yeah but Inno was.

Yes but that doesn't support the argument that Inno can't win when terran is weak because terran wasn't weak.


Yeah I'm just supporting the argument that Inno sux.
curufinwe_wins
Profile Joined August 2017
68 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 01:11:12
August 08 2017 01:10 GMT
#32
Stats really should be in that top tier level, INSTEAD of classic.

Successive SSL rounds by STATS and DARK have shown that Classic right now is just a bit too predictable... His mechanics are great. His understanding of the matchups are great... But he just doesn't have the late game or variety that makes top tier protoss so scary to deal with.

Too defensive, I would say.

Also Stats rofl-stomped Inno in their SSL this week (read yesterday)... Inno is still better, don't get me wrong... But I think you have to take Stats just a tiny bit ahead of Classic atm for top 'toss in the world.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
August 08 2017 01:10 GMT
#33
Inno is the kind of player that focuses on perfect play. He practices the most standard terran builds until he makes no errors. That means that when terran is favoured in a matchup, he looks unstoppable. When terran is at a disadvantage he isn't as dominant.

Is he a patch terran? kinda, I guess. But that doesn't take away from his talent. He plays perfect terran that's it.

(although I do give bonus points to players that dominated during times of severe imbalance against them, ByuL, Life, Maru etc)
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
curufinwe_wins
Profile Joined August 2017
68 Posts
August 08 2017 01:14 GMT
#34
On August 08 2017 10:10 Fango wrote:
Inno is the kind of player that focuses on perfect play. He practices the most standard terran builds until he makes no errors. That means that when terran is favoured in a matchup, he looks unstoppable. When terran is at a disadvantage he isn't as dominant.

Is he a patch terran? kinda, I guess. But that doesn't take away from his talent. He plays perfect terran that's it.

(although I do give bonus points to players that dominated during times of severe imbalance against them, ByuL, Life, Maru etc)


He also is far less innovative and more predictable than any of the other god-terrans... Which, yeah, is actually a knock against him...

A few weeks ago in SSL we actually saw him mix up builds and do some crazy shit and I thought to myself... "If this guy did this just a bit more often... He really would be unstoppable, and I would like watching his games soo much more".

He is the macro/multitasking god of SC2... Just untouchable in his control of everything... If not for Byun, we might even talk about his insanely good micro as well (poor Byun man... his micro has become almost a crutch for him in not rounding out his play...)


The Robot indeed.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 03:24:19
August 08 2017 03:19 GMT
#35
I don't see Inno as less of a 'micro god' than Byun or Maru. It's just that he chooses to focus most of his energies on macro (instead of 'engagements' which can be a risky gamble). That's what he thinks is the optimal play to maximise his chances to win. He's calculating. In that sense, he's a Machine. And a bit like Flash (whose micro is also quite underrated).
gg no re thx
curufinwe_wins
Profile Joined August 2017
68 Posts
August 08 2017 03:26 GMT
#36
On August 08 2017 12:19 RKC wrote:
I don't see Inno as less of a 'micro god' than Byun or Maru. It's just that he chooses to focus most of his energies on macro (instead of 'engagements' which can be a risky gamble). That's what he thinks is the optimal play to maximise his chances to win. In that sense, he's a Machine. And a bit like Flash (whose micro is also quite underrated).

Inno is realistically a micro god...

It is just that Byun is a Titan of Micro...

I mean it actually isn't fair to anyone else in the game that Byun is so next level...

It is almost laughable watching the other "four horsemen" try Byun'ng (Maru doing 3 rax is lolzy bad by comparison), and lets be real here... Those guys are already insanely good.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
August 08 2017 03:34 GMT
#37
On August 08 2017 12:26 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 12:19 RKC wrote:
I don't see Inno as less of a 'micro god' than Byun or Maru. It's just that he chooses to focus most of his energies on macro (instead of 'engagements' which can be a risky gamble). That's what he thinks is the optimal play to maximise his chances to win. In that sense, he's a Machine. And a bit like Flash (whose micro is also quite underrated).

Inno is realistically a micro god...

It is just that Byun is a Titan of Micro...

I mean it actually isn't fair to anyone else in the game that Byun is so next level...

It is almost laughable watching the other "four horsemen" try Byun'ng (Maru doing 3 rax is lolzy bad by comparison), and lets be real here... Those guys are already insanely good.

Inno's micro is amazing, it's just that he rarely needs to show it because his style revolves around efficient trades into overwhelming force instead of specific unit control. Now and then he will bust out some incredible splitting against Zerg, but that's about all we typically get to see from him in terms of micro.

Yes, ByuN has the best micro out of the Four Horsemen (though his splitting is actually quite poor), but while Inno's style is less flashy, it wins.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
August 08 2017 03:38 GMT
#38
Rogue is going to win GSL so who cares about this terran argument
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
curufinwe_wins
Profile Joined August 2017
68 Posts
August 08 2017 03:39 GMT
#39
On August 08 2017 12:34 pvsnp wrote:
Inno's micro is amazing, it's just that he rarely needs to show it because his style revolves around efficient trades into overwhelming force instead of specific unit control. Now and then he will bust out some incredible splitting against Zerg, but that's about all we typically get to see from him in terms of micro.

Yes, ByuN has the best micro out of the Four Horsemen (though his splitting is actually quite poor), but while Inno's style is less flashy, it wins.


Agreed... Inno is, in fact, arguably the only other person who has pulled off ByuN's own builds with similar success (although again Inno doesn't really roll that way very much.)

pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 03:45:00
August 08 2017 03:42 GMT
#40
On August 08 2017 12:39 curufinwe_wins wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 12:34 pvsnp wrote:
Inno's micro is amazing, it's just that he rarely needs to show it because his style revolves around efficient trades into overwhelming force instead of specific unit control. Now and then he will bust out some incredible splitting against Zerg, but that's about all we typically get to see from him in terms of micro.

Yes, ByuN has the best micro out of the Four Horsemen (though his splitting is actually quite poor), but while Inno's style is less flashy, it wins.


Agreed... Inno is, in fact, arguably the only other person who has pulled off ByuN's own builds with similar success (although again Inno doesn't really roll that way very much.)


Yep, some of Inno's 2/1/1 pushes just straight up win the game (against ByuL in GSL Season 1 for example) which is something I've really only seen ByuN pull off.

I find it mildly interesting that ByuN doesn't try and copy Inno more, for all that he idolizes him. While both of them are usually very aggressive, Inno has shown the ability to sit back and turtle into lategame to great success, while ByuN seems permanently stuck on the early-midgame aggro style.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
curufinwe_wins
Profile Joined August 2017
68 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 05:21:25
August 08 2017 04:02 GMT
#41
On August 08 2017 12:38 Shellshock wrote:
Rogue is going to win GSL so who cares about this terran argument


Rogue looked really bad against Cure (barely eeeking out a 3-4 win)... Just saying...

And super beatable against Ryung...

I mean maybe you are going to say he plays down to the competition or something...

But people keep telling me that Rogue is looking crazy good, and then I go watch him in Olimoleague, and he looks barely fit for ro16 GSL... [I mean Gumiho has struggled super hard since his Code S victory, and Keen also isn't exactly amazing either these days for Rogue's group]


I mean, he did win both series... so I can't be too critical... And his IEM run was great.

But 2-3 and 3-4 respectively against the likes of Cure and Ryung (and dirty ones at that) makes me really pause in thinking he is at that top tier right now.



Oh for the Ballistix Brawl we should shortly see Stats v Rogue in a Bo3, so that will be a nice little thing. I mean my concern was that Rogue's IEM run is basically Gumiho's GSL run, and the hangover might be similar...




EDIT: Rogue looked great in the Ballistic Cup... Damn...
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
August 08 2017 04:04 GMT
#42
On August 08 2017 12:42 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 12:39 curufinwe_wins wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:34 pvsnp wrote:
Inno's micro is amazing, it's just that he rarely needs to show it because his style revolves around efficient trades into overwhelming force instead of specific unit control. Now and then he will bust out some incredible splitting against Zerg, but that's about all we typically get to see from him in terms of micro.

Yes, ByuN has the best micro out of the Four Horsemen (though his splitting is actually quite poor), but while Inno's style is less flashy, it wins.


Agreed... Inno is, in fact, arguably the only other person who has pulled off ByuN's own builds with similar success (although again Inno doesn't really roll that way very much.)


Yep, some of Inno's 2/1/1 pushes just straight up win the game (against ByuL in GSL Season 1 for example) which is something I've really only seen ByuN pull off.

I find it mildly interesting that ByuN doesn't try and copy Inno more, for all that he idolizes him. While both of them are usually very aggressive, Inno has shown the ability to sit back and turtle into lategame to great success, while ByuN seems permanently stuck on the early-midgame aggro style.


It's because Byun can't match his sempai's patient Zen mode.

Byun: I WON! I WON!
Inno: Mmm... This snack bar is nourishing.
gg no re thx
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40187 Posts
August 08 2017 04:14 GMT
#43
On August 08 2017 13:04 RKC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 12:42 pvsnp wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:39 curufinwe_wins wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:34 pvsnp wrote:
Inno's micro is amazing, it's just that he rarely needs to show it because his style revolves around efficient trades into overwhelming force instead of specific unit control. Now and then he will bust out some incredible splitting against Zerg, but that's about all we typically get to see from him in terms of micro.

Yes, ByuN has the best micro out of the Four Horsemen (though his splitting is actually quite poor), but while Inno's style is less flashy, it wins.


Agreed... Inno is, in fact, arguably the only other person who has pulled off ByuN's own builds with similar success (although again Inno doesn't really roll that way very much.)


Yep, some of Inno's 2/1/1 pushes just straight up win the game (against ByuL in GSL Season 1 for example) which is something I've really only seen ByuN pull off.

I find it mildly interesting that ByuN doesn't try and copy Inno more, for all that he idolizes him. While both of them are usually very aggressive, Inno has shown the ability to sit back and turtle into lategame to great success, while ByuN seems permanently stuck on the early-midgame aggro style.


It's because Byun can't match his sempai's patient Zen mode.

Byun: I WON! I WON!
Inno: Mmm... This snack bar is nourishing.

You mean that ByuN that once choked out HerO (of Liquid fame) out of game with viking-ghost deathball that simply never attacked? Yeah, that was before Blizzard added Tempests and Oracle to actually counter that BS. That game scarred me for life, you know.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
curufinwe_wins
Profile Joined August 2017
68 Posts
August 08 2017 04:17 GMT
#44
On August 08 2017 13:14 lolfail9001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 13:04 RKC wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:42 pvsnp wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:39 curufinwe_wins wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:34 pvsnp wrote:
Inno's micro is amazing, it's just that he rarely needs to show it because his style revolves around efficient trades into overwhelming force instead of specific unit control. Now and then he will bust out some incredible splitting against Zerg, but that's about all we typically get to see from him in terms of micro.

Yes, ByuN has the best micro out of the Four Horsemen (though his splitting is actually quite poor), but while Inno's style is less flashy, it wins.


Agreed... Inno is, in fact, arguably the only other person who has pulled off ByuN's own builds with similar success (although again Inno doesn't really roll that way very much.)


Yep, some of Inno's 2/1/1 pushes just straight up win the game (against ByuL in GSL Season 1 for example) which is something I've really only seen ByuN pull off.

I find it mildly interesting that ByuN doesn't try and copy Inno more, for all that he idolizes him. While both of them are usually very aggressive, Inno has shown the ability to sit back and turtle into lategame to great success, while ByuN seems permanently stuck on the early-midgame aggro style.


It's because Byun can't match his sempai's patient Zen mode.

Byun: I WON! I WON!
Inno: Mmm... This snack bar is nourishing.

You mean that ByuN that once choked out HerO (of Liquid fame) out of game with viking-ghost deathball that simply never attacked? Yeah, that was before Blizzard added Tempests and Oracle to actually counter that BS. That game scarred me for life, you know.



I hate seeing 'toss lose, but that game... so much pleasurable pain...


He needs to do that more often. Clear up his decision making a little bit... Yes he does more per unit than anyone else... But he really needs to clear up that late game transition, and macro a bit.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
August 08 2017 05:00 GMT
#45
On August 08 2017 13:14 lolfail9001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 13:04 RKC wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:42 pvsnp wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:39 curufinwe_wins wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:34 pvsnp wrote:
Inno's micro is amazing, it's just that he rarely needs to show it because his style revolves around efficient trades into overwhelming force instead of specific unit control. Now and then he will bust out some incredible splitting against Zerg, but that's about all we typically get to see from him in terms of micro.

Yes, ByuN has the best micro out of the Four Horsemen (though his splitting is actually quite poor), but while Inno's style is less flashy, it wins.


Agreed... Inno is, in fact, arguably the only other person who has pulled off ByuN's own builds with similar success (although again Inno doesn't really roll that way very much.)


Yep, some of Inno's 2/1/1 pushes just straight up win the game (against ByuL in GSL Season 1 for example) which is something I've really only seen ByuN pull off.

I find it mildly interesting that ByuN doesn't try and copy Inno more, for all that he idolizes him. While both of them are usually very aggressive, Inno has shown the ability to sit back and turtle into lategame to great success, while ByuN seems permanently stuck on the early-midgame aggro style.


It's because Byun can't match his sempai's patient Zen mode.

Byun: I WON! I WON!
Inno: Mmm... This snack bar is nourishing.

You mean that ByuN that once choked out HerO (of Liquid fame) out of game with viking-ghost deathball that simply never attacked? Yeah, that was before Blizzard added Tempests and Oracle to actually counter that BS. That game scarred me for life, you know.


Um... that could also mean that he is clueless about late game and unable to close out a won game (ala Kelazhur v TY last weekend)...

Not saying that that was what happened in that game (which I didn't watch) nor that Byun is bad at late-game. But the point is that there are clearly superior late game players for each race (Inno, Dark, Stats), and that Byun isn't one of them. At least not now, in the current meta.
gg no re thx
LuLuneth
Profile Blog Joined July 2017
30 Posts
August 08 2017 08:26 GMT
#46
P A T C H T E R R A N

User was warned for this post
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24192 Posts
August 08 2017 10:00 GMT
#47
Fantastic bunch of articles.

Agree that INno and Rogue are the players that have to be avoided the most by far, and loved your honest article about INno.
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
August 08 2017 10:36 GMT
#48
So much bias against INno, and so much love of the past.
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
Topin
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Peru10053 Posts
August 11 2017 16:17 GMT
#49
nice read. thanks!
i would define my style between a mix of ByuN, Maru and MKP
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