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On June 28 2017 05:33 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 04:49 washikie wrote:On June 28 2017 03:14 Creager wrote:On June 28 2017 02:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i was very skeptical that Blizzard could find unique roles for all the units in LotV because so many new units got added from WoL. However, 1+ years into LotV. i think they've done a really nice job.
these fucking blizzard guys are geniuses. Liberator unique? Nope, overlaps with Thors and Siege Tanks, just does a better job than the latter. Lurker unique? Nope, just added that unit after years of community outcry for having that iconic unit in SC2, as well. Adept kinda is unique with it's ability, but still merely replaced Zealots, so... Yeah, damn, they're total geniuses. Except not realy, liberator and tank both control space but liberator is a unit you want against smaller numbers of powerfull units like ultras or adepts where as the tank is better against large numbers of weeker units like lings and roaches.further liberator can be used as a harasment unit and can reposition much faster. It's like comparing the maurador and the marine and saying meh same unit both shoot when actually mauraders and marines have fairly diffrent and important roles in the bio composition. The lurker is a Zerg space control siege unit, it overlaps with the tank but Zerg can't build tanks so I don't really see your point (if it's viable is another question) I guess you could argue so is the swarm host but the swarmhosts can't lock down a position like the lurker. as for the zealot I think it's less about overlap with the adept and more that the adept Is just a better unit than the zelot in many situations. Since it's ranged, does similar dps vs light units, and has a powerfull ability without any research attached, mabey with charge cost change the zelot will someday find a spot in the Protoss kit. You apparently didn't understand my post, I was referring to his point which implies that all new units in LotV have unique roles they fit into, which, to a certain extend, is not the case, since they at some point all overlap(ped) with already existing units, merely replacing them since they work out better instead of being a true and unique addition to the arsenal. What you say about Siege Tanks and Liberators is certainly right, they do fulfill different purposes, but in reality players build MMM and one additional unit for siege or splash damage, namely Tanks, Widow Mines or Liberators, they don't build all of those constantly, because they just back up the core army. In WoL it was Bio/Tank, in HotS Tank got replaced by the Widow Mine and in LotV it's Liberators.
Except that all three of these support units get used because they are needed vs diffrent comps. Mines are great vs linng muta bane and adept phenix but suck vs roaches and collosi based toss, tanks are very helpful vs roach ravager and a staple unit in tvt and libs are a staple tvp unit and used late game in tvz to counter ultras. I don't think any of these units see no play in the current meta. Even tanks get some situational use vs Protoss. It's not like hots where you prity much just wanted mines and not tanks except in tvt.
I think it's ok for units of each race to have a consistent theme and direction it adds to the flavor of the game for Terran one of the themes is sieged support units.
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On June 28 2017 05:33 Creager wrote:
You apparently didn't understand my post, I was referring to his point which implies that all new units in LotV have unique roles they fit into, which, to a certain extend, is not the case, since they at some point all overlap(ped) with already existing units, merely replacing them since they work out better instead of being a true and unique addition to the arsenal.
as long as we keep this question "as a matter of degree" your point is correct. there is some degree of overlap; there is some degree of uniqueness.
I should clarify rather than using "fanboy talk". So I'll clarify here:
i'm pleasantly surprised by the "degree of uniqueness" BIizzard managed to squeeze out every unit despite having such large # of units in each race. Before LotV came out i thought the degree of uniqueness would not be as good as it is and i thought there would be a tonne of overlap. I was pretty pessimistic and skeptical in this area. I'm glad I was proven wrong.
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A better question would be "where's the big design update that was promised a year ago"... that ended up being a small balance patch which then got reverted to be even smaller.
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On June 27 2017 12:45 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 12:35 xTJx wrote:
I guess the "mech not viable" guys will chill for a week or two after Gumiho won GSL. Their supreme leader is the only one mad enough to still complain right now. Hopefully. I am a Terran, and I like Mech. But I would not like the kind of mech that Avilo plays, turtling in your base to the ultimate army and then still losing. He wants to be able to beat better players simply by choosing to go mech, not to have to earn it like Gumigod. The gulf in play between a top level player and Avilo is amazing.
Wait what? I do not play that style of mech by choice. It's necessary because of Z/P lategame and how people in general turtle to invincible armies in a lot of games so you're forced to do the same thing as Terran which is accumulating mass raven/ghost.
If you've seen me play or commentate i always say that i dislike the fact that i can play as aggressive as possible off of mech/factories but if the opponent starts making swarmhost or rushes/turtles hivetech units you basically have no way to ever attack cost efficiently with mech and are forced to do the Terran equivalent if you want to win.
I would love it and so would many other mech players if you see an air transition to be able to mass produce some AA unit from the factory that can trade with those and not force you to turtle into mass viking/raven. But is that how the game is in reality? Nope.
In the current version of SC2, if your opponent starts massing air and you went mech, you now are forced to sit and build 4-5 starports and mass viking/lib/raven since there is no anti-air unit like the goliath available from the factory.
That's why the test mod myself and darkblizzard came up with had a tweak allowing vikings to be built from the factory with transformation mode adding another minute or so to when they can lift up into the air.
That allowed someone going mech to go up to 7-10 factories without being forced to wait another 2-3 minutes to get extra starports to counter air transitions. There was even a very significant game in the tourney i hosted where practiceX saw a Zerg player going for brood/corruptor and switched all of his factory production to mass vikings and it allowed him to compete with the air transition without being forced to turtle and wait for starports. He was able to keep attacking because AA was already on the way.
I think some people here don't quite understand the real issues that hold mech back from being viable or aggressive. The crux of the issue is mech has no anti-air available from the factory and it takes 1-2 minutes to sit and build those 4-5 starports and it takes another 500-600 vespene gas that you barely can afford at that point in the game when the Zerg can build 10+ corruptors at once or Protoss already has transitioned to an air fleet.
Mech is in dire need of anti-air and that will allow aggressive mech to become the norm, and then after that blizzard could look at adjusting ravens. Also swarmhosts are incredibly oppressive right now which also can stall games out forcing you to play "turtle mech" even if you don't want to. Soo did not abuse this during the GSL finals.
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In more relation to balance changes and what the community should really be focusing on asking blizzard to address are these things right now:
a) Protoss re-design/balance changes to adepts, zealots, gateway units, and adding 1500 mineral patches back to every patch on every base. The mineral change alone makes the game more Heart of the Swarm-esque and this will benefit Protoss. Protoss suffers in LOTV 100% because of the bad economy change forcing harrass/expand.
b) Address mech viability in the form of anti-air added to the factory / nerfing + removing the swarmhost so that it is not oppressive.
c) Zerg needs to be toned down. The queen range buff on AA needs a revert as it was only meant for back when liberators were OP at the time. Bane/hydra buffs need a revert imo as well.
d) Address mass air all across the board. This can be done by making all OP air units require more supply. example: BC/Carrier being 8-10 supply instead of 6. Ravens being 3-4 supply instead of 2. Broodlords being 6 supply instead of 4. This tones down mass air and intrinsically buffs ground anti-air because a player that opts to max out on air units will now have less air units while the player that opts to play ground oriented will now essentially have more AA in comparison. Changes like this tweak the gameplay of the game without actually changing or altering any unit interactions or base stat values which in turn allows blizzard to not break balance. This means units like hydralisks and thors inherently become stronger without actually needing to buff them any.
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the meta is so stale right now. there is very little room for creativity by terrans. same old tactics and unit compositions. every game looks the same. occasionally you see a pro terran abuse the map in an interesting way, but that's all. the core gameplay is gimmicky as hell.
WoL was a solid foundation which just got more and more convoluted over time. now there's too many dodgy spell-casters, specialty units and hard-counters...
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On June 28 2017 08:19 SHODAN wrote:
the meta is so stale right now. there is very little room for creativity by terrans. same old tactics and unit compositions. every game looks the same. occasionally you see a pro terran abuse the map in an interesting way, but that's all. the core gameplay is gimmicky as hell.
WoL was a solid foundation which just got more and more convoluted over time. now there's too many dodgy spell-casters, specialty units and hard-counters...
They added 2 spellcasters, which is not very much. And there aren't even that many hardcounters I mostly see only necessary ones.
(the 2 spellcasters are the viper and the oracle)
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On June 28 2017 08:19 SHODAN wrote:
the meta is so stale right now. there is very little room for creativity by terrans. same old tactics and unit compositions. every game looks the same. occasionally you see a pro terran abuse the map in an interesting way, but that's all. the core gameplay is gimmicky as hell.
WoL was a solid foundation which just got more and more convoluted over time. now there's too many dodgy spell-casters, specialty units and hard-counters...
A lot of this is fair, though I don't think the issue is the spellcasters. Sure, there are a lot, especially if you're P, but I think the real cause for a 'stale meta' is that they basically said, 'let's skip the first five minutes of each game'. Sure, it moves the games along quicker, gets the fights going faster, but it took a lot of different options away
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On June 28 2017 18:26 Corvuuss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 08:19 SHODAN wrote:
the meta is so stale right now. there is very little room for creativity by terrans. same old tactics and unit compositions. every game looks the same. occasionally you see a pro terran abuse the map in an interesting way, but that's all. the core gameplay is gimmicky as hell.
WoL was a solid foundation which just got more and more convoluted over time. now there's too many dodgy spell-casters, specialty units and hard-counters... They added 2 spellcasters, which is not very much. And there aren't even that many hardcounters I mostly see only necessary ones. (the 2 spellcasters are the viper and the oracle)
Necessary hardcounters does not equal that those hardcouters provide a fun and good gameplay.
If you look at your own word "necessary", and ask yourself why its necessary in the first place.
On June 28 2017 19:40 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 08:19 SHODAN wrote:
the meta is so stale right now. there is very little room for creativity by terrans. same old tactics and unit compositions. every game looks the same. occasionally you see a pro terran abuse the map in an interesting way, but that's all. the core gameplay is gimmicky as hell.
WoL was a solid foundation which just got more and more convoluted over time. now there's too many dodgy spell-casters, specialty units and hard-counters... A lot of this is fair, though I don't think the issue is the spellcasters. Sure, there are a lot, especially if you're P, but I think the real cause for a 'stale meta' is that they basically said, 'let's skip the first five minutes of each game'. Sure, it moves the games along quicker, gets the fights going faster, but it took a lot of different options away
Fair? How is it fair when a player has little to no control? It straight up feels like shit.
But hots was also stale. Its the core gameplay that is the issue here.
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On June 28 2017 06:31 Spyridon wrote:
A better question would be "where's the big design update that was promised a year ago"... that ended up being a small balance patch which then got reverted to be even smaller.
What, you don't consider +10 hp hydras to be a huge design change?
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On June 28 2017 07:29 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 12:45 DeadByDawn wrote:On June 27 2017 12:35 xTJx wrote:
I guess the "mech not viable" guys will chill for a week or two after Gumiho won GSL. Their supreme leader is the only one mad enough to still complain right now. Hopefully. I am a Terran, and I like Mech. But I would not like the kind of mech that Avilo plays, turtling in your base to the ultimate army and then still losing. He wants to be able to beat better players simply by choosing to go mech, not to have to earn it like Gumigod. The gulf in play between a top level player and Avilo is amazing. Wait what? I do not play that style of mech by choice.
Lol. Of course you are.
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On June 27 2017 04:53 GUrbak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 04:50 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On June 27 2017 04:30 Scarlett` wrote:On June 27 2017 04:27 avilo wrote:
Where is the balance update for swarmhosts? 3 updates in a row now from the balance team...that have no actual balance changes.
Is the community actually ok with this? gsl final won by mech not enough for you?  to be fair, soO didn't use any swarm hosts. obviously this is because they were too good and he didn't want to make it unfair, right? no it's because the best korean zerg doesn't know how to play vs mech obviously
This sounds like something Avilo would say...
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i sometimes wind up playing the same style of Mech as Avilo because my multitasking and APM are too weak to deal with several simultaneous early to midgame issues. I'm faced with these early/midgame issues because i have a smart opponent who is mechanically good at forcing several things on me at once. When my mechanics/APM/multitasking can't keep up i resort to turtling. What can i say. Sometimes I'm just not good enough. It has nothing to do with the Mech playstyle I've chosen. I guess Avilo can't admit he does the same thing.
I watch Code S level Terrans play and they are doing 8 things at once so fast i can hardly keep up with what they are doing even though i'm only watching them... not even playing. Terran Mech players like me and Avilo simply can't keep up with that pace. So we turtle as a last resort.
Some people can admit they are just not good enough. Others blame everyone but themselves and delude themselves into believing they know more about the SC2 meta than a Code S finalist whose been to 6 finals.
Often when my Mech games go sideways early and i turtle it isn't because of Swarmhosts its because my keyboard mechanics, multitasking, and APM just are not there. By the logic of some posters in here maybe I should tell Blizzard to remove the Zergling from the game.
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Most of the thread here is filled with complaints about tvz and mech (either it's good enough / too good bc 1 player in korea used it in 2 series in code s - or it's not viable bc avilo isn't code s etc.)
I will be brief on that overall but need to say - both sides in this argument aren't being objective and acting a bit like young children.
On the 1 side you hear - "zomg gumiho won code s with mech - problem solved"
On the other - "omg soo didnt use SH - not solved"
Let's think objectively about it -
As basically only 1 player in Korea has shown this style - how much practice do you think soO had against gumimech?
If gumiho was able to make it work - is it really fair to say it's not "viable"?
Clearly it's "viable" right - by the definition of the word and the fact that it was used with success.
Does this mean that it will become more than a short term gimmick? Or will see see - like we have for entirety of sc2 - that zerg will learn how to play vs it ? Time will tell.
So not as brief as I had planned - but on to the real point of my post.
There clearly is something wrong with the TvZ meta right now.
Is it not weird to anyone at all that of the 13 tvz's played from ro16 that:
8 out of 13 were 3 rax reaper
2 out of 13 were 11/11 builds.
2 were gumimech
1 was maru going oldschool 2-1-1 after literally cheesing 8 games in a row.
Thoughts please
???????????????
There was a patch between ro32 and ro16 but do we think the Thor buff and raven nerf was enough to force this?
Personally - I don't. In addition - as someone who's watched every season of code S since about the 4th season of wol - there is still enough gap in skill in the ro32 in my opinion to make it less relevant.
What I speculate is that as we've seen repeat over and over - zerg meta is evolving a bit slower than terran - based on the fact that the attributes of the game that make you a god with Terran mostly focus on your overall mechanical ability (micro/multi/macro - with macro being the last of the 3).
There's a reason Terran isn't going bio at all anymore - and to me I believe this to be due to the baneling and queen buff from hots to lotv - understand the macro mechanic was nerfed - but what you see now in pro games are loads of macro hatches. If the Terran doesn't snowball a large advantage from completely denying creep with 3 rax reaper - there really isn't an opening that I've seen that puts the Terran with the initiative going into the mid game - the standard of what we saw in beautiful ling/bling/muta vs bio games for sc2 history.
Let's not forget that bio was basically out of viability by the end of hots.
Do we really want tvz to become end of hots tvz? Game of chicken turtle - who will blink first and attack and lose?
I would speculate that the meta is heading there shortly again -
If we lower the skill ceiling to that point again - I think it's the nail in the coffin.
We need to work oppositely - to give zerg and protoss mechanics that allow players to separate themselves from the field as gods - it's not fucking broodwar - macroing perfectly in itself while defending and harassing was nearly impossible in broodwar - which made performing that exciting and unbelievable to watch. Sc2 is not the case! It's not difficult to macro and defend to a perfect comp max army - low level master players can do this! If we ever want viewership coming back - that needs to be a point of focus - or lets go back to pvz mass tempest vs swarmhost and tvz turtle mech vs hive tech - so there can be 1000 total viewers of the game all on brovilo stream.
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On June 28 2017 21:22 DomeGetta wrote:
Most of the thread here is filled with complaints about tvz and mech (either it's good enough / too good bc 1 player in korea used it in 2 series in code s - or it's not viable bc avilo isn't code s etc.)
I will be brief on that overall but need to say - both sides in this argument aren't being objective and acting a bit like young children.
very good point. i just wanted to highlight this. when i lose with a Mech playstyle its usually because i`m not good enough.
On June 28 2017 21:22 DomeGetta wrote:
Let's not forget that bio was basically out of viability by the end of hots.
Do we really want tvz to become end of hots tvz? Game of chicken turtle - who will blink first and attack and lose?
I would speculate that the meta is heading there shortly again -
i hope you are wrong on this point. but i see ur logic and reasoning here.
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Hey, I thought I'd just check in and watch a few games of SC2 to see how its changed over the years. Last time I played and watched was 2013 and I started in the Beta. To me, SC2 doesn't appear to have changed much. A few units and it starts faster into a harras but it still aims to be a dancing death ball. Fundamental that's been my biggest issue that'll appears unfixable no matter how much AOE you throw into the game to make it messy.
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United States1805 Posts
On June 28 2017 21:22 DomeGetta wrote:
Most of the thread here is filled with complaints about tvz and mech (either it's good enough / too good bc 1 player in korea used it in 2 series in code s - or it's not viable bc avilo isn't code s etc.)
I will be brief on that overall but need to say - both sides in this argument aren't being objective and acting a bit like young children.
On the 1 side you hear - "zomg gumiho won code s with mech - problem solved"
On the other - "omg soo didnt use SH - not solved"
Let's think objectively about it -
As basically only 1 player in Korea has shown this style - how much practice do you think soO had against gumimech?
soO didn't just fail to SH in game one because he's obstinate. He knew GuMiho was going to mech and he had a plan for it. A lot of factors go into choosing builds and strategies over the course of a seven game series. You should trust the opinion and decisions of a professional who played hundreds of games of ladder and customs in order to sculpt an appropriate strategy over that of unenlightened people (which in this case appears to include you). If he didn't go SH, he did it for a reason.
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On June 28 2017 21:40 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 21:22 DomeGetta wrote:
Most of the thread here is filled with complaints about tvz and mech (either it's good enough / too good bc 1 player in korea used it in 2 series in code s - or it's not viable bc avilo isn't code s etc.)
I will be brief on that overall but need to say - both sides in this argument aren't being objective and acting a bit like young children.
On the 1 side you hear - "zomg gumiho won code s with mech - problem solved"
On the other - "omg soo didnt use SH - not solved"
Let's think objectively about it -
As basically only 1 player in Korea has shown this style - how much practice do you think soO had against gumimech?
soO didn't just fail to SH in game one because he's obstinate. He knew GuMiho was going to mech and he had a plan for it. A lot of factors go into choosing builds and strategies over the course of a seven game series. You should trust the opinion and decisions of a professional who played hundreds of games of ladder and customs in order to sculpt an appropriate strategy over that of unenlightened people (which in this case appears to include you). If he didn't go SH, he did it for a reason.
Not disagreeing with this statement at all - only highlighting that you can't draw a significant balance conclusion off of 1 series. The style is brand new in relative time - when have you ever seen the meta immediately having the answer to a new style that shows up over halfway through code S? Never. The answer to the first version of mech that came in lotv was mass queen / SH - this style is different for sure - but does that mean there is no answer? Maybe so - but we aren't anywhere near being able to make that inference.
Let this play out on the ladder over the next few weeks - and I would be extremely surprised if we don't see hots tvz again. For me - I hope it is broken and gets nerfed - because I don't want to see byun and maru leap frog pushing siege tanks across the map in a 45 minute game where the only interaction between the players is the 3 or 4 times the terran sends helions at a base.
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On June 28 2017 21:22 DomeGetta wrote:
1 was maru going oldschool 2-1-1 after literally cheesing 8 games in a row.
If 2-1-1 is oldschool for you, what is gasless 1 rax FE :D ?
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On June 28 2017 21:51 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 21:22 DomeGetta wrote:
1 was maru going oldschool 2-1-1 after literally cheesing 8 games in a row.
If 2-1-1 is oldschool for you, what is gasless 1 rax FE :D ?
lol - a relic build!
I still miss Taeja cc first into 3 cc helion banshee man. the good old days.
Only call it oldschool because it's basically phased out of existence.
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EPT
