EPTI got this idea from the HotS trailer: What if the Viking transformation was changed in such a way that it could shoot and move while transforming into ground mode? I always thought that the concept of the Viking is really cool, as a unit that can transform and thus take different roles. However, the Viking is almost exclusively used as an AA unit, and only very very rarely as a ground unit. Now there is technically nothing wrong with that, I am of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with not all units being useful at pro level as long as gameplay is good. But in this case I think there is a lot of potential that may be worth it to be explored. Vikings could be used much better for harassment and would allow for generally more multitasking. Especially mech could use this very much so it may become less of a turtle composition. Do you think with that change Vikings would be more useful in ground mode? What would you think about any kind of buff to the Viking ground mode?
Improving Viking Assault Mode
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
I got this idea from the HotS trailer: What if the Viking transformation was changed in such a way that it could shoot and move while transforming into ground mode? I always thought that the concept of the Viking is really cool, as a unit that can transform and thus take different roles. However, the Viking is almost exclusively used as an AA unit, and only very very rarely as a ground unit. Now there is technically nothing wrong with that, I am of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with not all units being useful at pro level as long as gameplay is good. But in this case I think there is a lot of potential that may be worth it to be explored. Vikings could be used much better for harassment and would allow for generally more multitasking. Especially mech could use this very much so it may become less of a turtle composition. Do you think with that change Vikings would be more useful in ground mode? What would you think about any kind of buff to the Viking ground mode? | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
First off, this has nothing to do with balance. What I will be suggesting is a buff to Vikings Pick one. Anyway, what role do you want ground viking to fulfill exactly? Do we know where mech lack exactly so ground viking can fill? | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
On April 21 2017 22:39 Wrath wrote: Pick one. Anyway, what role do you want ground viking to fulfill exactly? Do we know where mech lack exactly so ground viking can fill? I mean that the reason I suggest this has nothing to do with balance. Maybe poorly worded. And that way mech would have much more micro and harass potential. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16642 Posts
The artists and animators at Blizzard are really good. So if you take a microscope to any unit you can come up with some subjective reasons for expanding its role. This also applies to the Viking. The reality is that as long as Blizzard has 15 units in a race some units will have a narrow role. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
On April 21 2017 22:56 JimmyJRaynor wrote: "Mech" is not a race unto itself. Furthermore, you can harass with widow mine drops. Unless the Medivac is not considered a "mech unit" but a Viking is a "mech unit. Best of both worlds: Do viking drops! | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
On April 21 2017 22:56 JimmyJRaynor wrote: "Mech" is not a race unto itself. Furthermore, you can harass with widow mine drops. Unless the Medivac is not considered a "mech unit" but a Viking is a "mech unit". Well you answer your own question. | ||
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Meepman
Canada610 Posts
:O! The holy grail of strategy because they'll never see it coming | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Back during WoL beta I used to play mass viking on scrap station TvZ, just destroy all overlords then land and kill them with the old overpowered viking ground attack. (From 1 base of course, because WoL beta) I actually was 1 game away from qualifying for IEM in... wherever it was that MorroW won. Lost this sick game against dimaga that started off with that build... (then went into super late game with mass bcs, had killed almost all his bases but he had huuuuuuuuuge bank after losing limit fight, just barely morphed a spire in time to spend like 7-8k bank on disruptors for the win). If I won that game I probably wouldn't have gone to Korea (or at least not as fast) :0 | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On April 21 2017 23:12 Liquid`Jinro wrote: ... (then went into super late game with mass bcs, had killed almost all his bases but he had huuuuuuuuuge bank after losing limit fight, just barely morphed a spire in time to spend like 7-8k bank on disruptors for the win). u wat m8? | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
Dimaga was always ahead of his time. And race.. | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
sorry, corruptors lol Been watching protoss replays. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
On April 21 2017 23:28 Thezzy wrote: Vikings need to be able to land and take off much more quickly (and in the style of the HotS cinematic so they can start landing early) for Viking drops to really be a thing. At the current speed, even though Vikings would deal bonus damage to Probes (as they are Mechanical), they'll be gone by the time the Vikings land. Dropping four of them with a Medivac seems faster | ||
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-Kuya
Australia20 Posts
On April 21 2017 23:32 aQuaSC wrote: Dropping four of them with a Medivac seems faster In case you missed it, here's good guy Crank to answer/try out everyone's stupid strategy ideas. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
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AaBbCc
New Zealand110 Posts
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On April 21 2017 22:45 Aunvilgodess wrote: I mean that the reason I suggest this has nothing to do with balance. Maybe poorly worded. And that way mech would have much more micro and harass potential. But that's the thing - if you're buffing something, you're affecting the overall balance? | ||
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yubo56
686 Posts
I don't think mech needs that much more mobility tbh. It seems like vipers just hard counter mech, either mech trades absurdly well against a viperless comp or absurdly poorly against a viper-free comp. I think there should just be a less black and white answer there, not just "more harassment" | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On April 22 2017 05:04 yubo56 wrote: Also, mech has become much more of an active playstyle lately, it's not super fair to call all styles of it turtle mech. As Pig's two recent articles on Gumiho vs. Dark point out, mech is actually fairly difficult to pull off now if you can't get some harassment damage done. I don't think mech needs that much more mobility tbh. It seems like vipers just hard counter mech, either mech trades absurdly well against a viperless comp or absurdly poorly against a viper-free comp. I think there should just be a less black and white answer there, not just "more harassment" Really wish they would tone down Vipers vs mech, specifically by making Blinding Cloud worse vs. stationary objects and better vs mobile objects Viper Balance Problem 1) Blinding Cloud nullifies stationary units by reducing range to melee, which in this game means it's pretty much only the Siege Tank that really get's screwed over, hard, by this ability. Everything else in the game can be moved out of the way, not the Siege Tank. 2. Blinding Cloud can be useful in small chokes and when you have 3 - 5 energy worth of BC, but generally speaking, if it's being used vs. enemy units that can be micro'd away from it, they will micro away from it and then it becomes merely a weak and temporary zoning tool. If on a scale the number of "<" infer how effective something is against something, I would paint BC's power something like this.. Siege Tanks that can't move <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Blinding Cloud <<< Units that can move When it should be more like.. Siege Tanks that can't move <<< Blinding Cloud >>> Units that can move Potential Solutions to Blinding Cloud 1) Change Blinding Cloud to reduce the range of all units by 5 that are stuck inside the cloud, and any units that are micro'd out of the radius will have their range reduced by 4 for 3.5 seconds (or whatever is balanced). This will enable the Siege Tanks to still get off a volley at a range of 8 in Siege Mode, almost cutting it's range in half which is still a size able margin, but this would allow tanks under a cloud to still get a shot or two off, which in major engagements is crucial. The sticking would enable the Viper to be a more "all around" unit because even when the units are moved away, they still need to be on the defensive as their range is reduced to 1 (most ranged units have a base range of 6) 2) Reduce the energy required to cast by 25, as it now would function more of a soft counter and less of an auto win vs. Siege Tanks so it will need to be used more often Oh and to respond to the OP, literally, at least in my humble opinion, the last thing this game needs is for air units to be even more powerful then they currently are, so no I do not think that Vikings need a buff, especially vs. ground when Banshees and Liberators are already fantastic vs ground units. edit for no double post | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On April 22 2017 05:59 jpg06051992 wrote: Really wish they would tone down Vipers vs mech, specifically by making Blinding Cloud worse vs. stationary objects and better vs mobile objects Viper Balance Problem 1) Blinding Cloud nullifies stationary units by reducing range to melee, which in this game means it's pretty much only the Siege Tank that really get's screwed over, hard, by this ability. Everything else in the game can be moved out of the way, not the Siege Tank. 2. Blinding Cloud can be useful in small chokes and when you have 3 - 5 energy worth of BC, but generally speaking, if it's being used vs. enemy units that can be micro'd away from it, they will micro away from it and then it becomes merely a weak and temporary zoning tool. If on a scale the number of "<" infer how effective something is against something, I would paint BC's power something like this.. Siege Tanks that can't move <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Blinding Cloud <<< Units that can move When it should be more like.. Siege Tanks that can't move <<< Blinding Cloud >>> Units that can move Potential Solutions to Blinding Cloud 1) Change Blinding Cloud to reduce the range of all units by 5 that are stuck inside the cloud, and any units that are micro'd out of the radius will have their range reduced by 4 for 3.5 seconds (or whatever is balanced). This will enable the Siege Tanks to still get off a volley at a range of 8 in Siege Mode, almost cutting it's range in half which is still a size able margin, but this would allow tanks under a cloud to still get a shot or two off, which in major engagements is crucial. The sticking would enable the Viper to be a more "all around" unit because even when the units are moved away, they still need to be on the defensive as their range is reduced to 1 (most ranged units have a base range of 6) 2) Reduce the energy required to cast by 25, as it now would function more of a soft counter and less of an auto win vs. Siege Tanks so it will need to be used more often Oh and to respond to the OP, literally, at least in my humble opinion, the last thing this game needs is for air units to be even more powerful then they currently are, so no I do not think that Vikings need a buff, especially vs. ground when Banshees and Liberators are already fantastic vs ground units. edit for no double post I think that's the reason blinding cloud is how it is - to specifically counter siege tanks, since they're so strong. They wanted dark swarm from BW, but didn't want to make it dark swarm, so they decided to flip it (from affecting the attacked to affecting the attacker). As a result, you get weird things like siege tanks being worthless. IMO it's a fine trade off - vipers are expensive units, and to use their energy on incap'ing siege tanks makes it a worthwhile investment. to counter, all of the siege tanks shouldn't be within just a few range of each other. | ||
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On April 22 2017 13:21 reneg wrote: I think that's the reason blinding cloud is how it is - to specifically counter siege tanks, since they're so strong. They wanted dark swarm from BW, but didn't want to make it dark swarm, so they decided to flip it (from affecting the attacked to affecting the attacker). As a result, you get weird things like siege tanks being worthless. IMO it's a fine trade off - vipers are expensive units, and to use their energy on incap'ing siege tanks makes it a worthwhile investment. to counter, all of the siege tanks shouldn't be within just a few range of each other. I agree good tank splits can mitigate it but the real issue is that the Viper seems to exist ONLY to hard counter mech armies (cloud for tanks, pull for thors, rinse and repeat) and this isn't saying that mech can never win against armies with Vipers it's saying that the design on the Viper just flat out could be better. I would rather have a unit that is medium good vs multiple compositions then a unit that hard counters one or two units specifically and is weak against everything else. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5214 Posts
Honestly, the Viking is just a bad design. | ||
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