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Co-Op: General Feedback

Forum Index > SC2 General
17 CommentsPost a Reply

Co-Op: General Feedback

Text bymonk
Graphics byv1
March 24th, 2017 12:53 GMT

Co-op - General Feedback

Author: monk


In response to the recent co-op mission update from Blizzard, I’d like to offer my own feedback to co-op as a whole. Though there is a plethora of feedback about co-op, I find a lot of it is either from lower level players who don’t play commanders to a high enough level or from players who lack game design experience. This is very understandable because, after all, co-op is the casual side of StarCraft and very few top-level players that I know of take it very seriously at all.

For some background, I was a top 50 NA GM player in WoL and a pro-Hearthstone player for Liquid in the early days of the game. I’ve assisted in the design and balance of many custom Blizzard arcade games throughout the years including Tides of Blood(WC3), Castle Flight(WC3), Footmen Frenzy(WC3), and Desert Strike(SC2). I founded TL Strategy, a branch of TLnet that specializes in strategy-related articles for StarCraft. And I run a StarCraft co-op Discord for fun. The following is my general thoughts about the game:

Commander Power Levels


Since mutations came out almost a year ago, I’ve been tracking commander power levels for each mutation. You can read the criteria I use to rank here. I believe this is the best way to rank commanders, because standard brutal missions are so trivial for any commander. Though it’s still a subjective ranking, I believe my ranking is the best indicator of commander power levels that exists for mutations played at the highest level.


Detailed Commander Rankings

[image loading]


The google sheet is a bit difficult to understand, but the important output is laid out above; you just have to trust that there is a method to this madness. From these results, there are a few things that immediately stick out to me. The first is that there’s a fairly large difference in score between the better commanders and the worst commanders, indicating that the difference in power level is quite large.

What sticks out to me even more is that three of the four DLC commanders reign at the top of the ranking. I understand that the new commanders have to be powerful in order for them to be appealing to buy, but the old guard needs some love too. I’ll point out some standouts:

Vorazun

[image loading]


Ever since the Emergency Recall nerf, Vorazun has been struggling with keeping her DT armies alive in difficult mutations. Unfortunately, DTs are still generally her best option in many scenarios. Some buffs I’d like to be considered for Vorazun include bringing Emergency Recall cooldown to 3 minutes and buffing many of her other units.

Zagara

[image loading]

Zagara is a curious case since she’s absurdly strong for lower level players in regular missions. However, she consistently struggles with mutations due to the suicidal nature of her units. Most mutations involve killing more difficult enemies or functioning with limitations. Unfortunately for Zagara, she tends to peter out near the end, because unlike the other commanders, she can’t preserve her army.

I’d like to see late-game Zagara buffed in some way, though it’s difficult to find an elegant solution. Maybe she gets new upgrades unlocked at 20 minutes into the game? Maybe her suicide units gradually improve over time?

Artanis

[image loading]


Of all the commanders, Artanis seems to have the least cool identity, the most one-dimensional playstyle. All the other commanders have much more unique mechanics, especially mechanics that make them stand apart from each other. (Raynor's old mules, Kerrigan's Omega Worms and strong Heroic unit, Swann's Laser Drill and powerful Herc/Tank combo, Vorazun's unique Spear of Adun and stealth, Karax's Spear and defense, Abathur's biomass, Alarak’s Ascendants, Nova’s Elite Squad, Stukov’s ever-spawning army) However, Artanis simply makes a-move armies and attempts to march across the map. If I had to pinpoint the crux of the issue, it'd be that even at the highest level, there's just not much to micro in fights with Artanis. Artanis' Guardian Shell mostly removes the need for micro; his Spear of Adun's abilities are also boring and at the same time, don’t synergize with anything else he has in particular.

Speaking of Guardian Shell, pre-nerf, it used to be the best ability in the game, but it defined him too much. Every time I wanted to know if Artanis would be good at a mutation, I simply asked myself how good Guardian Shell would be in that particular mission. The thought process pretty much ended there. He could build many diverse armies, but at the end of the day, he was going to build a deathball and a-move it.

[image loading]

Does this look familiar?


Ever since Guardian Shell was nerfed from a 1 minute cooldown to a 4 minute cooldown, Artanis’ power level has dropped dramatically. And although I think the nerf was good for design reasons, Artanis did not receive corresponding buffs to maintain his power level. Artanis’ units are simply weak when compared to the competition and I’d like to see some buffs across the board.

Diversity Within Commanders


A lot of commanders currently feel extremely one-dimensional in terms of their gameplay and unit choices. That is, for many commanders, there exists only a single clearly superior way to play them. This is usually because one of their unit compositions clearly overshadows their other choices. An easy solution is to buff the weaker choices:
  • Zagara Corruptor: This is the only unit in the game that could be considered weaker than its ladder counterpart. It doesn’t fit into Zagara’s theme at all and probably needs some type of researchable upgrade in order to be viable. (Or give Zagara the Mutalisk).
  • Kerrigan Mutalisk: This unit is too fragile and costs way too much gas. Hydralisks are simply superior in almost every situation. (Or give Kerrigan the Corruptor).
  • Kerrigan Broodlord: The power level of this unit is extremely low for a tier 3 unit and it can’t compete with Ultralisks.
  • Swann Cyclone: Cyclones are really cool, but they currently cost way too much gas to compete with a Tank or Goliath based army in most cases.
  • Swann Hellbat: Buff this unit slightly so Cyclone/Hellbat compositions can be better!
  • Swann Wraith: Another really weak unit that just feels out of place.
  • Stukov Infested Liberator: Yet another subpar unit that is overshadowed by Infested Bunkers. Unfortunately, Diamondbacks and Siege Tanks still share a similar problem.
  • Karax Colossi: These are almost never worth the cost due to other options being better and overlapping with the Spear of Adun.
  • Alarak Warp Prism: I understand the thinking behind this unit, but it just doesn’t work. Lower level players don’t have the control to reinforce with this unit. Higher level players would rather follow their armies with a probe to forward warp units in addition to utilizing offensive Photon Overcharge.
  • Nova Banshee: These are probably decent units, but they’re completely overshadowed by Nova’s Siege Tanks.
  • Alarak Slayer/Vanguard/Wrathwalker: These units are all pretty good, but they’re all completely overshadowed by Ascendants. Alarak’s Robo units also all happen to be less exciting, more a-move units, compared to Ascendants, which is a problem in itself.
  • Abathur Ravagers/Swarm Hosts: Again, these are good units, but overshadowed by Abathur’s other options.
  • Vorazun Centurion/Stalker/Dark Archon/Oracle/Void Ray: Dark Archons and Void Rays are both useful in certain situations on certain mutations, but 90% of the time, especially in regular missions, Corsair/DT is the way to go. Vorazun’s other units, in particular Centurions and Stalkers, are simply underpowered compared to Corsair/DT.

The 13 Enemy Compositions



For those of you who don’t know, there are 13 possible types of waves that can spawn on any given mission. You can find the list of waves here.

I believe that when the designers came up with each of the 13 compositions, they intended for players to “scout” the enemy composition and react accordingly. However, there are a few reasons this doesn’t work as well as intended in practice.

The biggest reason is the lack of viable options each commander is offered (as previously mentioned). Often times, there’s a one-size fits all composition for each commander, and as a result, unit countering isn’t especially encouraged. If there is a decision, that decision usually boils down to “Is the enemy composition one of these four air compositions or not?” The few good counterexamples that aren’t simple anti-air vs anti-ground choices include:
  • Artanis does have many viable options and can change his composition based on enemy composition and individual mission.
  • Raynor should adjust his bio composition based on the enemy composition (More Marines, Marauders, or Firebats).
  • Raynor has to control better against the Zerg Swarm composition, which features Banelings and Vipers.
  • The heavy-Immortal compositions force Karax to shield his Cannons.

Otherwise, most commanders can follow the simple formula of their best unit composition (Ascendants for Alarak, Ultra/Hydralisk for Kerrigan, Corsair/DT for Vorazun, etc…).

I believe another reason why this is the case is that unit compositions simply aren’t different enough from each other. Most of the ground compositions blend into each other, because they’re designed to be well-rounded armies. For example, Tier 7 Zerg ground is currently Ultralisk, Infestor, Ravager, Hydralisk, Roach. Why can’t it be more Ultralisk and Hydralisk heavy so players actually have to work harder to counter those specific units?

In a way, this would add difficulty to the game without actually increasing the power level of the waves. In addition, it would add to the replayability of co-op, making each game feel different from the last.

Enemy Air Compositions


Another problem I previously alluded to is the stark difference between the ground and air enemy compositions. Of these 13 possibly enemy compositions, The two Skytoss compositions, the SkyTerran compositions, and the ShadowTech composition are the four air compositions that stand out.

[image loading]


For many of the commanders, air compositions are a huge weakness. Abathur is the only commander that arguably deals better with air than with ground (Devourers are that good). Karax and Alarak both deal with air and ground relatively well. Every other commander is better versus ground than they are versus air waves. I believe this is problematic for a few reasons.

From a design standpoint, I don’t think enemy air compositions should just be inherently better than enemy ground compositions across the board. I believe commanders should each have their individual strengths and weaknesses against different enemy compositions, but I find it boring if all the commanders share a weakness as binary as air/not air.

When I start out a mission with most commanders and I see the enemy composition is air, I know immediately that I’m going to have a harder time no matter which air composition it is, and that’s not a good feeling to have. I’m confident that if Blizzard look through their records, winrates against these four air compositions would be noticeably lower than those of most of the ground compositions.

Another issue I have with air compositions is that a few commanders struggle with air no matter what enemy composition it is. This applies to a lot of commanders, but it’s especially noticeable with Kerrigan. For many of the mutation challenges, Kerrigan can breeze through the challenge against a ground composition, but she needs to be hard carried if played against an air composition. Hydralisks and Queens just often don’t cut it against mass air armies and Mutalisks are usually too costly. I understand that commanders should have weaknesses, but air units should not be as crippling a weakness as they are for Kerrigan.

Balancing For Various Skill Levels


One final thing that I think the design team should consider is that certain commanders are better at different skill levels. Raynor and Swann are two of the best examples. Raynor is probably the worst commander in the game if you don’t know that you can mass Orbital Commands, but in my rankings, he ranks as one of the best. Similarly, all top players agree that HERC/Tank is the best way to play Swann, but I’ve never seen it being used in a public game before. (Not coincidently, Swann is often regarded as one of the weakest commanders in forums.) In contrast, it’s much harder to differentiate yourself as a Zagara player.

This is one of my more minor points, but I think there can be some takeaways here. For example, one simple solution is to add commander-specific tips for beginners on the loading screen. On the other side of the coin, buffs could be made to Zagara to increase her skill-cap.

Abathur Ramp


Finally, I’d like to put it all together by referencing the original Blizzard post, specifically this comment about Abathur.

“We agree that Abathur is a slow ramp commander and his early game can determine whether he can build enough momentum to become an unstoppable force. We’re currently looking at some buffs we can do to help his early game but not affect the end game too much. These changes aren’t set in stone but we’re looking at the following: Ravager Corrosive Bile, Queen anti air range, Brutalisk weapon upgrades, and Toxic Nests.”

[image loading]


Abathur does ramp slowly at two key points. In the early game, it’s all about getting 100 biomass on your first Roach/Brutalisk. I feel like this is an objective that most beginners miss completely, instead distributing their biomass equally among all their units. After this first Brutalisk, it’s mostly smooth sailing from there. However, correct Toxic Next placement is key and incorrect placement can be very punishing and frustrating for newer players.

In the mid-game, after you’ve achieved your first Brutalisk, it’s about teching to the right unit composition, usually Vipers if you’re against ground and Devourers if you’re against air. I almost never face any problems once I reach this stage, but I can imagine less-efficient players would. Basically, you’d have to identify the enemy composition and then have a streamlined build to counter it. Yet again, this is a fairly skill-intensive process that I don’t expect 99.9% of co-op players to have down.

Then there’s the issue of some compositions such as Ravagers being strictly inferior to his other options. I don’t see how a Ravager buff would actually be helpful for Abathur’s early game, but it would certainly give him additional options and expand his game.

A lot of Abathur’s early-game struggles can be mitigated by player skill, but in this case, it’s probably best to cater to the lower level players of co-op’s core audience. Now, if you want to talk about commanders that have real ramping problems, we can talk about Swann, but that’s a story for another time.


Writer: Monk.
Graphics: v1
Editors: Olli.
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pretender58
Profile Joined August 2013
Germany713 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-24 13:37:07
March 24 2017 13:28 GMT
#2
The integrated links within the text are missing. Also,
For many of the commanders, air compositions are a huge weakness. Abathur is the only commander that arguably deals better with air than with ground (Devourers are that good). Karax and Alarak both deal with air and ground relatively well. Every other commander is better versus air than they are versus ground waves..


In general, I agree with the criticisms. Your proposed Mutalisk-Corruptor-Switch for Kerrigan and Zagara sounds interesting and might be worth trying, it would - if the corruptor were to be buffed - help Kerrigan's anti-air and not influence zagara at all since scourge are way better anyway (Mutalisks would still not be a viable unit though).
Regarding Zagara's late game woes, I'd like to see an upgrade (available only very late or resource intensive) allowing her to increase her supply cap by 20 (or 25?).
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
March 24 2017 13:38 GMT
#3
Good post.

Typo: "Every other commander is better versus air than they are versus ground waves".
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16071 Posts
March 24 2017 13:55 GMT
#4
Good feedback. The points on anti-air and the fact that the purchasable commanders are so good seem especially relevant.

Artanis and Kerrigan really need some love. Swann needs an air to air option. Zagara needs some kind of late game love.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Colouss
Profile Joined November 2013
United States501 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-24 14:51:26
March 24 2017 14:46 GMT
#5
Love the post. I do agree that Artanis seems a little bland to play compared to the other commanders. It's either zealot archon vs air or reaver immo zealot vs ground for me. Usually I can play 3 different comp with other commanders whom I choose regularly (except Karax, but cannon rush is fun)

Stukov's Liberators seems a bit weak too. While diamondbacks and banshees are fine, liberators always seem to die way too easily. Maybe make it able to burrow to heal like the banshee would be nice.

Also, I think that Stukov still feels a little bit unfinished. Like how you can't reburrow structures in the fog of war area with creep, you need vision to do so, unlike how scvs can build there just fine.I'm also a little dissapointed that infested diamondbacks and liberators don't have a custom portrait and that the announcers for Miner Evacuation and Dead of Night maps don't have special lines for him like Alarak in Rak'shir.
Chinese teams flair when
krlwlzn
Profile Joined July 2016
118 Posts
March 24 2017 15:27 GMT
#6
On March 24 2017 23:46 Colouss wrote:
Love the post. I do agree that Artanis seems a little bland to play compared to the other commanders. It's either zealot archon vs air or reaver immo zealot vs ground for me. Usually I can play 3 different comp with other commanders whom I choose regularly (except Karax, but cannon rush is fun)

Stukov's Liberators seems a bit weak too. While diamondbacks and banshees are fine, liberators always seem to die way too easily. Maybe make it able to burrow to heal like the banshee would be nice.

Also, I think that Stukov still feels a little bit unfinished. Like how you can't reburrow structures in the fog of war area with creep, you need vision to do so, unlike how scvs can build there just fine.I'm also a little dissapointed that infested diamondbacks and liberators don't have a custom portrait and that the announcers for Miner Evacuation and Dead of Night maps don't have special lines for him like Alarak in Rak'shir.


Didn't they patch it so you could burrow in fog of war?
Yuudachi
Profile Joined March 2017
Hong Kong4 Posts
March 24 2017 16:28 GMT
#7
I do like Artanis a lot right now, not because he is easy to play and just F2A all the time, but more because Guardian Shell keeps his army alive for 5 seconds, making his weakest units able to fight till the last moment. His Zealots are very enjoyable to watch when they spin into the enemy army. The ability to spam them on top of your enemy is also a lot fun. Having Artanis as a teammate makes your army feels much safer as every unit gets 5 seconds extended life. Guardian Shell is still very good of an identity and I do not think the problem lies there.

Not having to micro a lot does not mean a commander boring. Vorazun DT Corsairs can wipe a sector with little micro, Swann Tank Drops can clean the ground quickly with one drop button, Stukov, well, just put down a psi emitter and release everything. Artanis being pretty versatile in terms of unit compositions, Archons have feedback and storm, Phoenixes needs to be pulled around, while the no-brainer Tempests cannot deal with scourges and lacks mobility.

I think the problems of Artanis is that he does not have excessive damage, and his major Spear of Adun powers does not synergize very well with his army.

Of all the commanders, Vorazun has op powers to support her fragile but high damage units, Karax and Swann have good abilities to strengthen their turrets and adds offensive options, Raynor and Stukov have powerful summons to cover the weaker early game and empower them once it reaches later, Nova has strong defense, aoe and mobility powers to cover her otherwise immobile and expensive units, Zagara drops and spawns can reduce the loss of her army by a lot. Abathur mends and toxic nests are able to preserve and create more biomass for his army. Of all the commanders, Artanis has the worst synergy between his army and his power. Orbital Strike provides 5 weak and unreliable shots, Shield Overcharge overlaps with Guardian Shell. Solar Bombardment is good, but with a 7 minute cooldown it is very limited in what it could do. Only Pylon Power is useful for the whole game and it is what Artanis got left to not be worse.

If we are seeing buff of Artanis, there are many options. Orbital Strike works well in the campaign because the camera stops for you to fire, but in co-op it is very unreliable. lowering the cost or increasing the radius may be good. For Shield Overcharge, I think it would be good if it may provide a stat increase so that it becomes much more useful in engages. Alternatively, removing this skill and replacing it with Deploy Talandar may also be an option. His units may also be buffed either by stats or adding skills for more micro, but I would like to see his army being still as easy to use as it is right now.

MS09
Profile Joined March 2017
1 Post
Last Edited: 2017-03-24 16:40:09
March 24 2017 16:39 GMT
#8
--- Nuked ---
imJealous
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1382 Posts
March 24 2017 17:11 GMT
#9
Interesting to think about possible Zagara late game-only improvements...

Maybe something like slowly increasing the speed at which the baneling nest produces its free banelings over the course of the game...

Perhaps each time Zagara uses her roach drop call down it summons more than the last time...

Or a building that produces free scourges too but at a much slower rate than the baneling nest, and it too could slowly improve over time...

Imagine if baneling and scourge kills left behind biomass that Zagara herself could pick up to make just her more powerful...
... In life very little goes right. "Right" meaning the way one expected and the way one wanted it. One has no right to want or expect anything.
Exquisite7
Profile Joined June 2016
34 Posts
March 24 2017 17:27 GMT
#10
I'm surprised mutas are so underused. I like using them a lot. They are very rewarding to someone with good micro as they are so fast and can do hit and run tactics well.
Yrtiop
Profile Joined January 2014
France5 Posts
March 24 2017 18:16 GMT
#11
Vorazun 9nth ? That's the most op (with nova I agree), you can anhiliate any ground army with mass dt ...

And his powers are really good too :
- The stop time is really long and has a decent cooldown
- On some mutation without heroic detection you can just fullblock with a dark pylon, snipe obs and laugh (helps a lot karax too)
- The vortex only cost 25 and give you enough time to kill anything in it (specially if you use the dark archon power on it just before it end if they are still not dead)

The only problem is anti-air, but you can help a lot your ally with vortex, while you kill anything on ground. You dont need corsair, they are shitty anti air (most of the time), and your dt dont need help to clean ground if you use well the spells they have.
Rizare
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada592 Posts
March 24 2017 19:13 GMT
#12
-Commander power levels

Not much to say since I don't play at a high-level like you. I agree that Zagara has issues with sustaining her army because of its volatile nature.
Did Artanis' Guardian Shell really used to have a 2 minutes cooldown? I thought it was 1 minute then nerfed to the current 4 minutes which is big nerf.

-Diversity

I don't know if much can be done about it. Is it possible to have many viable compositions? Because I think it's inevitable that there'll be 1 best composition despite attempts at buffing or nerfing.

-Enemy Composition and Air

I agree that the biggest question here is usually if the enemy is air or not. However, I think swarm zerg is an unique of its own, especially when the baneling was bugged which caused a lot of problems. Again, maybe it isn't an issue for you who has the micro skills against them.
That being said, it would be nice if the enemy wave were being made more unique to bring out the strengths of different units to address the diversity topic.

-Balancing for various skill levels

Not much to say. I remember the first blue co-op post mention that something they had in mind was make brutal a lot harder and that a large number of players are on the normal or hard difficulty.

-Abathur ramp

Another issue I would add that isn't usually a concern is that sometime, your ally will kill the enemy wave instead of letting the toxic nest kill them for double biomass, delaying your brutalisk even more and the ability to pull your weight. Placing toxic nest correctly also sometime require familiarity with the map like the pathing of the enemy wave for which I'm not sure if most players know.
Also, I find that Vermillion Problem, Chain of Ascension and Miner Evacuation slow down Abathur since the expansions are defended by enemies but you lack a brutalisk to expand as quickly as maps with rocks at the expansions.
How do you deal with the 2nd wave vs air waves with him because usually, you don't have a brutalisk to deal with it and queens are rather pitiful.



Beside that, I do wish they respond quickly to bugs or acknowledge that they're aware of it like they did about the concerns of ascendant's psi orb animation change on its power. I'll guess that they do have datas on win rates vs enemy compositions if they choose to decrease the number of liberators in attack waves specifically. But then why did it take at least 2 months to bring the baneling damage back to normal? What about the Chain of Ascension 2nd wave that is way too strong for the current state that the players will be at? That issue should have been made obvious by the Shir Chaos mutation where suddenly you have to kill twice high-tech units whereas the 1st wave is instead something much simpler. An example of that is adepts/sentries then suddenly you're facing disruptors/reavers or some vikings/banshees then suddenly a massive wave of vikings/banshees/liberators.

Overall, I'm kinda concerned that the feedback is too hardcore and that it won't be addressed since as you said, a majority of the co-op player base is casual but we'll see about that.
Colouss
Profile Joined November 2013
United States501 Posts
March 25 2017 07:53 GMT
#13
On March 25 2017 00:27 krlwlzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2017 23:46 Colouss wrote:
Love the post. I do agree that Artanis seems a little bland to play compared to the other commanders. It's either zealot archon vs air or reaver immo zealot vs ground for me. Usually I can play 3 different comp with other commanders whom I choose regularly (except Karax, but cannon rush is fun)

Stukov's Liberators seems a bit weak too. While diamondbacks and banshees are fine, liberators always seem to die way too easily. Maybe make it able to burrow to heal like the banshee would be nice.

Also, I think that Stukov still feels a little bit unfinished. Like how you can't reburrow structures in the fog of war area with creep, you need vision to do so, unlike how scvs can build there just fine.I'm also a little dissapointed that infested diamondbacks and liberators don't have a custom portrait and that the announcers for Miner Evacuation and Dead of Night maps don't have special lines for him like Alarak in Rak'shir.


Didn't they patch it so you could burrow in fog of war?


Nope. They only patched to allow scvs to build in the fog of war. Rooting doesn't work just yet
Chinese teams flair when
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
March 25 2017 08:04 GMT
#14
General Feedback is my favorite commander, i prefer him even over Major Patch and Private Lobbies
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Zrana1
Profile Joined February 2017
Netherlands45 Posts
March 25 2017 15:04 GMT
#15
On March 25 2017 17:04 opisska wrote:
General Feedback is my favorite commander, i prefer him even over Major Patch and Private Lobbies


I have nothing useful to add to the thread but I just wanted to celebrate this post
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
March 25 2017 15:29 GMT
#16
Monk, you rock! It's funny because Zagara and Vorazun are my favorite to play. Followed by Alarak & Swann. Honestly, ever since I put starting energy into vorazun so you can spam dark pylons early changed the entire commander for me.

A few thoughts:

Zagara's scourge nest should periodically spawn scourge just like the baneling nest does. I mean, four scourge every 30 seconds or whatever isn't game breaking but it would help a little bit, especially if you can start to pool some of those scourge. I'd actually like if scourge would break into mini scourge (just like the banelings) and do extra splash dmg as well. I do think giving Zagara mutas instead of corruptors makes sense since zagara is just a super speedy, swarmy commander and mutas fit that synergy more then corruptors. Plus it solves the kerrigan anti air problem. (for the most part).

Stukov - I really wish his factory and starport units were just like his barrack units, where they are super cheap, you can mass them, but they die after so long. Like, marines are 25m (iirc) make tanks 50m 25g or something, make banshees 25m 50g. I'm just throwing random numbers in but if you balanced it you could then make a more "balanced" swarm instead of just maxing bunkers + rax + 3/3 + all infested upgrades asap. They should also make it so he gets mech upgrades from engi bay. Maybe include them all in one. You either upgrade infested, which is your bread and butter or you upgrade mech but then your infested will suck. At that point, might as well upgrade infested and mass bunkers/rax which is what works the best now imo.

Vorazun - I just want faster voids or cloaked voids =P Sometimes dark archons are fun to play with, but if you're going to play the best then as you said, go dt with some corsair. I guess if it's a enemy air you might need more sairs / voids or go a few dark archons. But DT + Time Stop + Dark Pylon Recall is usually more than enough to beat everything. If you lost the last fight, warp in 10 more dts and try again. Eventually your shadow blade dance will kill everything while your dts are invulnerable.
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
Hushfieldx
Profile Joined December 2016
Belgium64 Posts
March 25 2017 15:52 GMT
#17
Great post, and also quite helpful to somebody like myself who is new to coop and trying to learn the game
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16702 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-25 16:29:34
March 25 2017 16:25 GMT
#18
thx for this article. Co-Op is great!
A lot of commanders currently feel extremely one-dimensional in terms of their gameplay and unit choices. That is, for many commanders, there exists only a single clearly superior way to play them. This is usually because one of their unit compositions clearly overshadows their other choices. An easy solution is to buff the weaker choices

maybe Blizzard wants it to stay this way. i kinda like Commanders being 1-dimensional. I end up identifying them as being a "certain kind of General" based on the composition that is by far the best.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
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