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Carmac on SC2 @IEM: "Prestige, history, and legacy is trem…

Forum Index > SC2 General
38 CommentsPost a Reply
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Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33360 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 10:13:00
December 29 2016 11:00 GMT
#1
Michal "Carmac" Blicharz's official title at ESL is VP of Pro Gaming. However, most esports fans know him better as "that guy who runs Intel Extreme Masters."

In the first half of my interview with Carmac at IEM Gyeonggi, I asked him about about StarCraft II's place in modern esports, the value of legacy games at IEM, and the lessons learned from cutting Counter-Strike 1.6.

*This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.


[image loading]
Photo: Patrick Strack/IEM


Wax: Let’s start off with a question everyone wants to know the answer to. Will there be StarCraft in the next IEM season?

Carmac: Yes. I know for a fact that we’re going to have StarCraft in IEM Season XII, beyond Katowice which is still season eleven. I know for a fact there will be StarCraft, but in what capacity exactly has not been determined yet.

Would StarCraft be at Katowice 2018 at least, at the Season XII World Finals? Would you know about that?

I know about that, but I’m not going to comment on that.

What’s the place of a game like StarCraft in esports, a game that’s not the most popular anymore? For instance, there was a time when Counter-Strike 1.6 was like that at IEM, while StarCraft was the main game. Yet you still keep doing games that aren’t the biggest.

I think all the way through IEM, what we always paid attention to is the legacy of Intel Extreme Masters. The trophy has the entire history of Intel Extreme Masters engraved onto it. Right now, every trophy has that. The cup in Katowice has all the names of the past winners, including WarCraft III champions, World of WarCraft champions, Counter-Strike 1.6 champions, etc, etc.

So legacy, to us, the legacy that we’ve built is very important. In hindsight, I would say it was a mistake to give up on Counter-Strike. Although, with the same data that I had, I would have probably made the same decision. But in hindsight, it was a mistake to sever that thread.

StarCraft provides that lineage back to 2010 in Intel Extreme Masters. Even though the viewership is not the same as say, Counter-Strike, I feel like the value that it gives—not in terms of direct key performance indicators—but the value for…

Prestige?

Prestige, history, and legacy is tremendous in StarCraft II. And that is not something that should be discarded lightly.

When you say you regret cutting 1.6 in retrospect, is that because of the resurgence of Global Offensive? Or even if Counter-Strike didn’t have this resurgence, would you have still regretted it because Counter-Strike 1.6 by itself was a game with such a rich history and legacy in esports? Did it deserve some more time, just for IEM’s legitimacy and legacy?

At the time when we made the decision to discontinue Counter-Strike, we had the next big esports war coming in, so to speak. Everybody was fighting over the new game StarCraft II, putting more and more resources toward it, and we really needed to keep up in that race, to be in the race. It was a question of focus—can we focus on so many games? Can we do so many games? With the majority of Intel Extreme Masters being actually outside of Europe, having Counter-Strike events in China, South-East Asia, even in North America, didn’t seem like a good idea at the time.

Therefore, we probably should have retained Counter-Strike as that European grand slam, always there, because it still made sense for Europe-only. It didn’t make sense globally. At the time I had a global view on Intel Extreme Masters, and it just didn’t seem like the right fit going forward.

Now, in hindsight, it’s all rather obvious, but I can’t do anything about it anymore.

Did that experience affect how you view StarCraft now, now that you see StarCraft on the decline, in a similar situation as Counter-Strike back then? Did you learn from that experience, that it’s worth having a game around just for that legacy?

Yeah, I think so. One thing we have to remember is that esports is young, and it changes the whole time. The experience you built up, let’s say, in 2007, 2008, 2009, is not necessarily relevant anymore in 2011, 12, 13. And you have to constantly adapt and constantly shift your center of gravity. It’s like trying to keep your balance and dance well during an earthquake, kind of.

You can very easily judge from the outside and say, they messed up this, they messed up that, they messed up that, etc. But you only work with the information that you have. And obviously, any organization works with more information than the public knows, simply because we’re the ones talking to the publishers, we’re the one who understand our budget, we’re the one who understand our sponsors' needs and suggestions, and things like that.

Every season of IEM history has been a tremendous lesson, and to answer your question specifically: Yes, what happened with CS is also a lesson of how to treat games going forward as well.

Would you agree that the value of this thing called legitimacy, legacy, or whatever, is because it gives your organization legitimacy with the fans? It gives you some equity with them, so they respect you, and it has some intangible value that can’t be measured in numbers or money.

It’s not only the fans, but it’s a big statement to the players that you know that if you win Intel Extreme Masters, the World Championship, you’re going to have your name on that trophy. And that one day, we might invite you to bring it out and present it to the world. Even though it’s been ten years and you think people might not remember you, we gave ToD that moment, we gave Loord that moment. And when I asked them, how did it feel—because I can only imagine how they might feel, do they care or do they not care—ToD’s eyes lit up and he said “it felt pretty fucking good.” And it was such a great moment for me, too.

We’re sending signals that we’re there to treat everything we do and everyone we work with with as much respect as we can possibly give them. And I think there’s also value in that if we do something, we’re going to respect the legacy of it for a really long time. So for fans, for players, for publishers, for the press to be engaged and involved with that, I think there’s that extra intangible layer of something that makes IEM different compared to some other tournaments.

Obviously the guys at ESL, they’re fans and players, esports lifers, and they understand the value of legitimacy and things like that. Are your sponsors on board with this, too? How deeply do they appreciate it, given they’re the guys who are the most numbers driven in this entire deal? Do they appreciate the value of legacy games?

Honestly, some of them do, some of them don’t. It depends. With Intel, for example, Intel is our key strategic partner in Intel Extreme Masters, and they’ve been with us since day one. I have conversations with them all the time. Sometimes they say, “Hey, I miss Quake! I wish Quake were back.” I keep hearing these things from Intel.

So there are people at Intel who just have personal preference beyond the numbers. They’re fans, too.

Yeah, and it’s actually increasing. There was a guy at Intel, a senior director that didn’t have anything to do with marketing, who was actually with sales, who showed up to Katowice. I asked “Hey did your boss approve this trip?” and he said “Ah, I don’t care. I just want to see some good CS.” This is now a much more common conversation with Intel people that I have, compared to five years ago where it was one person. Now it’s many more.

But to come back to your question, some sponsors, they care about the reach, reaching as many people as possible. Others, also feel the value of… that IEM means a little bit more than just the numbers that we reach, that the trophy has a little bit more glimmer than it than other trophies.

So StarCraft is something you have to fight for, to some extent?

With sponsors, no. It’s our sovereign decision. Our sponsors do not dictate what games we select. They can suggest and say “can we please have this and this game at this and this event,” and then we sit down and have a discussion, but our sponsors do not attempt to influence our decisions in a way such as, say “we need you to throw LoL overboard, we need you to throw StarCraft overboard,” it’s our decision.

Click to read part two of the interview, covering concerns about Blizzard's Overwatch League and team localization, the value of short "weekend" tournaments over extended leagues formats, and the effect of traditional sports capital on esports.


You can follow Carmac, Intel Extreme Masters, and Wax on Twitter. Intel Extreme Masters Season XI will conclude in March of 2017 at the World Championship in Katowice, Poland.
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AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Sjokola
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands800 Posts
December 29 2016 11:11 GMT
#2
Some good sc2 news in 2016. Who'd have thought Good to hear
jimminy_kriket
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada5501 Posts
December 29 2016 11:16 GMT
#3
Nice interview. Thanks.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
December 29 2016 11:43 GMT
#4
that's not Carmac in the photo, it's Uszat
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Ingebrigtsen
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Norway343 Posts
December 29 2016 11:50 GMT
#5
I always knew Dimaga was very smart, good interview!
"These animals should be rewarded for not being people... I hate people"
gab12
Profile Joined June 2016
Poland147 Posts
December 29 2016 12:04 GMT
#6
yeah that s very interesting cool to see SC2 not on that total decline every1 is crying about
myRZeth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1047 Posts
December 29 2016 12:16 GMT
#7
Thank you Carmac!
pieroog
Profile Joined June 2010
Poland146 Posts
December 29 2016 13:00 GMT
#8
On December 29 2016 20:50 Ingebrigtsen wrote:
I always knew Dimaga was very smart, good interview!



Imba-or-Ba Uszat you ment... didn't you?
Lightrush
Profile Joined July 2015
Bulgaria164 Posts
December 29 2016 13:25 GMT
#9
I miss Uszat and his good interviews
User was warned for this post
Edpayasugo
Profile Joined April 2013
United Kingdom2214 Posts
December 29 2016 14:00 GMT
#10
Good stuff, thank you.
FlaSh MMA INnoVation FanTaSy MKP TY Ryung | soO Dark Rogue | HuK PartinG Stork State
KOtical
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany451 Posts
December 29 2016 14:02 GMT
#11
very good read! thanks alot
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
December 29 2016 14:45 GMT
#12
Carmac is a legend
Neosteel Enthusiast
EleMenTfiNi
Profile Joined January 2015
Canada107 Posts
December 29 2016 15:15 GMT
#13
ESL pretty much grew to global prominence alongside their work with SC2, expanding to America with WCS and such. It is no wonder that they still hold a special place in their war chest for StarCraft.
Don't complain about things you're not willing to change.
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3421 Posts
December 29 2016 15:51 GMT
#14
SC2 not doing well is a synonym for not being the top esport anymore. I couldn't care less if it's the most popular or not, as long as there are people playing it (there are) and people watching them play (fuck yeah there are).

Glad to see Carmac is reasonable about this as well.
n3p
Profile Blog Joined July 2016
93 Posts
December 29 2016 16:03 GMT
#15
Awesome interview. Good to know that the ones making decisions are learning from past mistakes, and that they're fans too! Good news for SC2.
This is a fucking joke. Fuck you. - RIP IdrA
rastaban
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2294 Posts
December 29 2016 17:13 GMT
#16
Great interview. Really great insight.
Tyler: "...damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!"
Kitai
Profile Joined June 2012
United States873 Posts
December 29 2016 17:14 GMT
#17
Thanks for the enlightening interview. Carmac seems to be a well-thought and well-spoken gentleman and I'm grateful that IEM is looking at more than raw numbers when making decisions about continuing to host SC2.
"You know, I don't care if soO got 100 second places in a row. Anyone who doesn't think that he's going to win blizzcon watching this series is a fool" - Artosis, Blizzcon 2014 soO vs TaeJa
ProBell
Profile Joined May 2012
Thailand145 Posts
December 29 2016 17:33 GMT
#18
Esports is growing more and more towards team based games like LoL and CSGO. I hope SC2 stays strong and even stronger in SC3 in 5-10 years. We are the Tennis of esports. There will never be more audience @ tennis matches than say the world cup or super bowl but tennis will never die. And tbh SC2 is much harder than other games, as I've been rank 1 in wow many seasons, global elite csgo, on top teams in age of empires and won a few Rainbow six rogue spear tournaments back in the day...I love SC2 the most, and it's the only game I can't be top tier in. My goal is to get grand master one day in my 30s and see SC2/3 rise up even higher. Solo games like street fighter will always be around and so should starcraft!
ProBell
Profile Joined May 2012
Thailand145 Posts
December 29 2016 17:37 GMT
#19
And back in the day I remember Carmac being the funniest interviewer, even funnier than Hot_Bid :D Now he's running the show, kudoss
Azhrak
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland1195 Posts
December 29 2016 17:48 GMT
#20
"Yes. I know for a fact that we’re going to have StarCraft in IEM Season XII". Great news! Thanks for the interview.
starcraft2.fi
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