BlizzCon As in years before, the BlizzCon Global Finals ended extremely well! Players displayed amazing skills, there was a near perfect race-ratio towards the top of the bracket, there were many personal stories created, and the quality of the games was spectacular. . . especially in the finals!
Congratulations to all of the highly-skilled players from around the world who put up such a great performance, as well as our community for working together with us to make sure the balance of the game was as good as it was. The casters/observers/hosts/crowd also did such an amazing job, including my personal favorite, ‘Incontrol’, who is the best ‘Incontrol’ in the world. Finally, congratulations to the Blizzard Esports Team and to our partners around the world who did an especially great job this year building up the awesome stories of these fantastic players!
Balance Update Onto gameplay then, we wanted to let you guys know that we’re aiming for November 22nd for the release of the major gameplay patch. We are aware that JYP’s balance tournament is going on right now, but we thought it would be best to push these changes out ASAP so that we have better data to make additional fixes as needed.
Because we don’t have a lot of time remaining until the release of the patch, we wanted to add these additional changes into Testing today or tomorrow.
Ultralisk Base armor increased by 1, and reducing 2 armor from the upgrade like we’ve talked about before. Nothing complicated here.
Cyclone Reducing the anti-ground +armored damage by 1. This puts the Cyclone at 3 (+2 vs armored) damage per shot.
Hydralisk We’ve seen some issues regarding the speed at which the new more powerful Hydralisk can hit the field (and the enemy). To address this, we would like to try splitting up the range upgrade and the speed upgrade since they are now both much more impactful. In this case, the Hydralisk will start off no different than it does in the live game, but after researching both of the upgrades, the Hydralisk will be brought to the full strength of the current balance testing version. Maps for 2017 Season 1 and Season 2 Our community team has been in discussion with TeamLiquid regarding the first TeamLiquid Map Contest for next year, and it looks like the timing is such that we can begin investigating maps to use for Season 2 in 2017. With that in mind, we’ll get the next TLMC going in the middle of Season 1 so that we can use TeamLiquid map contest maps for Season 2!
However, we also have Season 1 just ahead of us, and many of you offered suggestions about community maps that you felt were worth considering for use in Season 1 of next year. After reviewing these maps, we wanted to get your input as well!
In order to have high-quality maps that provide diverse play potential as a pool, we’re currently thinking about bringing in these 4 community maps:
Abyssal Reef by SidiantheBard • battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/277597 Honor Grounds by SidiantheBard • battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/273507 Paladino Terminal by Namrufus • battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/273841 Proxima Station by LatiAs • battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/273568
We’ve reached out to all of the map makers here to discuss using their maps and have heard back from most already. The remaining three maps are still to be determined, so please let us know your thoughts on these maps because we have to start on the QA/Art passes on our end for next season’s maps very soon.
I'd appreciate if the Abyssal Reef had these fish in the middle of the map removed, but if it went into the ladder eventually it would be done anyway I think
Split Hydra upgrades? So we're back to bw. Cyclone is going to have 30 dps and 50 dps against armored, surprised they still want to keep the lock-on damage unchanged
What is really making me angry about these changes is the fact that the community demanded these for so long and for so long blizzard did not want to do jack shit about these issues but now all of a sudden they are like "yeah, we totally see that this needs to be done guys"... Where was this determination before? At least they are doing the right thing in the end...
Also, not mentioned in the update but still an update nonetheless, but more Carbot portraits, decals, and emoticons are going to be available in patch 3.8 as microtransactions.
Another map (or two!) on ladder is a dream come true. Supporting sc2 is what I love to do and I will continue to map make because it scratches that creative itch I get.
The fact that Blizzard is a lot more proactive with community maps is encouraging. They seem to be aiming for a nice combination of aggressive and macro maps too. I wonder how they chose them--Proxima Station isn't a map that was on my radar.
On November 11 2016 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote: The fact that Blizzard is a lot more proactive with community maps is encouraging. They seem to be aiming for a nice combination of aggressive and macro maps too. I wonder how they chose the--Proxima Station isn't a map that was on my radar.
I totally agree. I'm willing to believe in a future when the future involves rewarding the communities efforts.
On the other hand I don't know what splitting hydras upgrades are supposed to accomplish. They were fine in ZvZ and ZvP. They were build order losses in ZvT. Adding a second time expensive upgrade isn't going to help anything.
I guess the core issue is it isn't a hydralisk problem. The unit is fine in other matchups.
Looks like it might be a pretty fun macro map. Not sure how you could get any damage onto a two-base opponent other than air, though.
Paladino Terminal
Walling the natural might be difficult (can't really tell from the picture alone), but if not, this looks fantastic as well.
Abyssal Reef
Tanks behind the natural mineral line seem like they could be a real problem. Other than that, I like this map too.
Honorgrounds
I'm not sure how you ever take a third as Protoss / Terran. Seems like a pretty major issue.
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I'd love to see more work to Protoss for the upcoming update. Short end of the stick seems to be the kindest way to look at it.
I'm thinking as Zerg - OK I take my third. And my fourth, and fifth. And I even have a watchtower.
I'm not enthusiastic about Honorgrounds design. I am liking the idea of having a map like apotheosis but with rocks over the gold so its not a big balance issue or perceived as one by players.
On November 11 2016 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote: The fact that Blizzard is a lot more proactive with community maps is encouraging. They seem to be aiming for a nice combination of aggressive and macro maps too. I wonder how they chose the--Proxima Station isn't a map that was on my radar.
I totally agree. I'm willing to believe in a future when the future involves rewarding the communities efforts.
On the other hand I don't know what splitting hydras upgrades are supposed to accomplish. They were fine in ZvZ and ZvP. They were build order losses in ZvT. Adding a second time expensive upgrade isn't going to help anything.
I guess the core issue is it isn't a hydralisk problem. The unit is fine in other matchups.
Looks like it might be a pretty fun macro map. Not sure how you could get any damage onto a two-base opponent other than air, though.
Paladino Terminal
Walling the natural might be difficult (can't really tell from the picture alone), but if not, this looks fantastic as well.
Abyssal Reef
Tanks behind the natural mineral line seem like they could be a real problem. Other than that, I like this map too.
Honorgrounds
I'm not sure how you ever take a third as Protoss / Terran. Seems like a pretty major issue.
---
I'd love to see more work to Protoss for the upcoming update. Short end of the stick seems to be the kindest way to look at it.
I'm thinking as Zerg - OK I take my third. And my fourth, and fifth. And I even have a watchtower.
I'm not enthusiastic about Honorgrounds design. I am liking the idea of having a map like apotheosis but with rocks over the gold so its not a big balance issue or perceived as one by players.
The only hope I see is two-base all-ins (or 1-base all-ins) to keep the game as low-eco as possible for as long as possible.
Maybe if we force tons and tons of fights until the bases are basically mined out (main / nat), then we'll be able to have barely gotten the tech to hold a third (but really only having 1 mining base -- that one). Seems dismal at best, though. Esp given the ease of defending such an open area for zerg in the early game.
Honestly Edowyth the more I look at honorgrounds the more unpredictable it looks. If you have the watchtower and your opponent doesn't have vision you can get shit done despite being behind if your opponent does not very carefully micro against the map. That's OK but with the combination of a buncha bases, I'm not a fan yet.
After looking at each in turn, Abyssal Reef looks like the most standard of the bunch even if it's quite different from the current pool.
On November 11 2016 06:17 RoomOfMush wrote: What is really making me angry about these changes is the fact that the community demanded these for so long and for so long blizzard did not want to do jack shit about these issues but now all of a sudden they are like "yeah, we totally see that this needs to be done guys"... Where was this determination before? At least they are doing the right thing in the end...
maybe because its the off-season and Blizzard is willing to try all kinds of stuff including stuff they think might not work.
On November 11 2016 06:17 RoomOfMush wrote: What is really making me angry about these changes is the fact that the community demanded these for so long and for so long blizzard did not want to do jack shit about these issues but now all of a sudden they are like "yeah, we totally see that this needs to be done guys"... Where was this determination before? At least they are doing the right thing in the end...
maybe because its the off-season and Blizzard is willing to try all kinds of stuff including stuff they think might not work.
It helps that players are leaving and you can't really bullshit it. I mean it hurts. But they know and aren't going to deny it or hedge and say another expansion will save us.
A little surprised the reaper grenade/3rax build wasn't mentioned once ...
Good to see better maps finally. I hope we can have 7 fresh maps every season, there are so many good maps that it shouldn't be an issue.
The portraits are quite nice ^.^
Dunno about the hydralisk stuff since i didn't make them much yet, but hopefully they won't suck. my initial reaction to seeing this split is negative, it's probably better to just tweak the upgrade timer carefully just like they did with the lurker den morph time.
i really dont understand the concept of blizzard with ALL UNITS HAVE TO BE USEFULL IN EVERY MATCH. come on... there are units that are going to be shit in certains MU, just leave it like that
no one complained about DARK ARCHONS just being use full on some PvZ MU and blizzard didnt buff the unit... so WTF blizzard keep trying to do this on SC2? we need diversity in strategy and gameplay, if but blizzard keep pushing their filosofy about all units have to be use.
On November 11 2016 06:17 RoomOfMush wrote: What is really making me angry about these changes is the fact that the community demanded these for so long and for so long blizzard did not want to do jack shit about these issues but now all of a sudden they are like "yeah, we totally see that this needs to be done guys"... Where was this determination before? At least they are doing the right thing in the end...
maybe because its the off-season and Blizzard is willing to try all kinds of stuff including stuff they think might not work.
It helps that players are leaving and you can't really bullshit it. I mean it hurts. But they know and aren't going to deny it or hedge and say another expansion will save us.
the SC2 team seemed very bullish on multiplayer/competitive SC2 at the BlizzCon panel saying they expect the game to grow.
On November 11 2016 06:17 RoomOfMush wrote: What is really making me angry about these changes is the fact that the community demanded these for so long and for so long blizzard did not want to do jack shit about these issues but now all of a sudden they are like "yeah, we totally see that this needs to be done guys"... Where was this determination before? At least they are doing the right thing in the end...
maybe because its the off-season and Blizzard is willing to try all kinds of stuff including stuff they think might not work.
It helps that players are leaving and you can't really bullshit it. I mean it hurts. But they know and aren't going to deny it or hedge and say another expansion will save us.
the SC2 team seemed very bullish on multiplayer/competitive SC2 at the BlizzCon panel saying they expect the game to grow.
I think (as Guru just learned) there's a difference between "things you can say in private" and "things you can say in public".
Confidence is huge. If they don't believe in their game then how the hell will players? So repeat after me. Everything is fine.
And right now - I have confidence in them and their dedication in improving the game. If they had said things were bad maybe I'd be writing something different? I couldn't say.
I think we can all agree on this one incontrovertible truth however: That overlord carbot portrait is the best one
Not wanna sound negative but I don't really like those chosen maps. It's like trying to select recycled things no one bought year before (they didn't make far on TLMC IIRC) Weren't you trying to get old maps back? I was really hyped to play on Daybreak, Newkirk Precinct TE, Whirlwind etc. on next patch.
if Blizzard thought SC2 was a blind alley they would pull the funding. the company has the balls to cancel 5 year old games. if the really smart expert-type guys at Blizzard are putting their money where their mouth is.. that's good enough for me. i'm still having fun playing Co-Op and multiplayer 1v1s and 2v2s.
On November 11 2016 06:17 RoomOfMush wrote: What is really making me angry about these changes is the fact that the community demanded these for so long and for so long blizzard did not want to do jack shit about these issues but now all of a sudden they are like "yeah, we totally see that this needs to be done guys"... Where was this determination before? At least they are doing the right thing in the end...
maybe because its the off-season and Blizzard is willing to try all kinds of stuff including stuff they think might not work.
It helps that players are leaving and you can't really bullshit it. I mean it hurts. But they know and aren't going to deny it or hedge and say another expansion will save us.
the SC2 team seemed very bullish on multiplayer/competitive SC2 at the BlizzCon panel saying they expect the game to grow.
I think (as Guru just learned) there's a difference between "things you can say in private" and "things you can say in public".
Blizzard was straightforward and honest about D3's and Overwatch's deficiencies. They are generally honest.
Wonder what they plan for cyclone. At patch state, it's just really a cheese unit and Midgame buffer at best, while we see more varied use of current cyclone
On the hydra nerf: I think hydra would need a dmg or attack speed nerf rather than splitting the upgrade. It already come after lair and is really strong at 7 range. The nerf doesn't change much offensively off creep but it gets rid of it''s fast defensive ability on creep- it doesn't really deal with its strength midgame
There is more to business than "if it doesn't make money then lose it" Jimmy but this is getting way off track.
On November 11 2016 07:42 CognacLover wrote: Not wanna sound negative but I don't really like those chosen maps. It's like trying to select recycled things no one bought year before (they didn't make far on TLMC IIRC) Weren't you trying to get old maps back? I was really hyped to play on Daybreak, Newkirk Precinct TE, Whirlwind etc. on next patch.
I really disagree about using pre-LotV economy maps to test balance. It's not smart. But that's irrelevant.
However, we also have Season 1 just ahead of us, and many of you offered suggestions about community maps that you felt were worth considering for use in Season 1 of next year. After reviewing these maps, we wanted to get your input as well!
They're not talking next season. They're talking the season after next.
With 20% less damage vs armored (5 vs 4 damage against 1 base armor) the Cyclone is pretty bad now. Before it was at least good at killing buildings and taking map-control against low tier armored units. Now it's just a way-less cost-efficient and microable marauder with an unusable anti-air ability. I'd rather they bring back the old Cyclone and drop the supply to 3 if this is the direction they're headed in.
Does anyone know if they are putting the voidray change into the live game? Movement speed from like 3.1 to 3.5. Seems small but its actually pretty huge if they decide to stick with it.
Now there will be 3 upgrades in hydra den. Considering Lurker Den upgrade takes like 2 upgrade time as well, it will take ages to do a decent push with hydras yet they want them to be core units. I think nerf to the dps is better than splitting upgrades or remove the range buff vs ground and keep it vs air.
Yeah. It would be nice to see these upgrades research time altered if it's going to be an even bigger commitment to get hydras out. I appreciate that the buff is making hydras very strong but they aren't exactly lights out amazing units right now. One of the big issues with that is when they come out. Adding more tech and delaying it even further is shifting some of their problems from one area and adding new problems to another.
I can't really say. The changes to mech are going to toss everything up.
On November 11 2016 08:59 Probe1 wrote: Yeah. It would be nice to see these upgrades research time altered if it's going to be an even bigger commitment to get hydras out. I appreciate that the buff is making hydras very strong but they aren't exactly lights out amazing units right now. One of the big issues with that is when they come out. Adding more tech and delaying it even further is shifting some of their problems from one area and adding new problems to another.
I can't really say. The changes to mech are going to toss everything up.
Hydras right out shit on mech right now though. Pure hydras are insanely cost effective- very unlike their unbuffed coutnerpart
On November 11 2016 07:25 SC2BF3Love wrote: i really dont understand the concept of blizzard with ALL UNITS HAVE TO BE USEFULL IN EVERY MATCH. come on... there are units that are going to be shit in certains MU, just leave it like that
no one complained about DARK ARCHONS just being use full on some PvZ MU and blizzard didnt buff the unit... so WTF blizzard keep trying to do this on SC2? we need diversity in strategy and gameplay, if but blizzard keep pushing their filosofy about all units have to be use.
i actually had this thought since years ago.
don't know why they want to make every unit useful, it's never gonna happen. the more you go through the process the more some units will start being the same as other units, or fill in the same roles.
i LIKE the fact some units are way stronger than others, or way stronger in certain matchups, or certain army compositions it's nice to have a clear path and strategy to go to.
Not adressing the bullshit that are mass reapers opening vT/Z due to the charge is actually worrying. It has ruined the early game of both match up anytime you build more than 2.
TL is my third most visited site according to FF and I can hardly bring myself to even read these sc2 'updates' anymore. Think blizzard lost the plot long ago.
Do i need to make a list again of things ignored by the developers and left unaddressed? Here we go.
-snipe should not be cancellable, let this unit not have a handicap -para bomb nerfed / changed to not be so oppressive -raven auto-turret too strong on test map, not sure if this was changed yet. -swarmhost on test map is absolute cancer. Worse than old swarmhost because locust fly + cheaper. Bad unit, fix -reaper grenade removed from the game. this needs to happen for both tvz and tvt. coinflip gameplay is bad. -mech still has no anti-air. Anti-air is non-existent on test map vs carrier/tempest. cyclones worse vs air bad bad -protoss adept still is OP, same with warp prism. These two units lead to terrible games. -protoss design in general is hampered because the adept is ridiculously OP. Fix adepts, then address Protoss design -mech upgrades should be re-combined, doesn't affect liberator because libs already were hardcore nerfed -hydralisks are going to be OP as fuck with avilo hydralisk/lurker + viper style™ i can see everyone abusing this style now -corruptor ability to piss on buildings is overboard, should be removed. Makes the unit too versatile. -queen range needs a revert, it kills too many Terran openers, forcing 16 marine drop every single game. -invincible nydus worm is absolute horseshit. why is it still in the game? Needs to be counter-able still... -8 armor ultra...they say they are nerfing it but increasing it's base armor. We'll see
I would say the most pressing gameplay issues of the above mentioned things are these:
-REAPER GRENADE MUST BE ADDRESSED. It impacts two match-ups to be luck oriented build order win/loss allowing really bad players to beat players way over their skill level.
-MECH ANTI-AIR LEFT LARGELY UNADDRESSED
-SWARMHOST/RAVEN CANCER will return if these units are not addressed on the test map. No one wants this.
On November 11 2016 13:27 avilo wrote: -MECH ANTI-AIR LEFT LARGELY UNADDRESSED
DK commented that he wants the Thor to be hte primary anti-air weapon of Mech and that the Cyclone's AA should be good enough to get a player to the stage where they can build Thors. Further, He doesn't want people using the Cyclone's AA like its just a big mechanical Marine.
-protoss adept still is OP, same with warp prism. These two units lead to terrible games.
Terran marine is still OP, same with medivac. These two units lead to terrible games
I wish Blizzard listened to the coaches about these sorts of issues... I feel like blizzard is just making the game as different as possible from the original just for the sake of it
Like i ***ing hate this. Is that a 'new' standard to make intestines-like maps? So you focus more on finding your way out of the maze instead of actually playing the game. 3 heavy rains in the pool. AWESOME. Can you please leave at least 3 standard maps in the pool? Why are you so obsessed with rewamping the pool every ***ing half a year. Game is 6 years old already. There were maps that had proven themselves (like KSS, frost, coda, overgrowth, whirlwind and arguably some others) to be very good and balanced maps. But for some unknown reason people are being afraid to play on 'old' maps. It is almost considered blasphemy. While none of the shit maps DK 'experimented' with (like dash and terminal, dasan and many others) never delivered 'fun' games they were supposed to and were forgotten by everyone. Why keep doing this? FFS.
What does Shoutcraft Kings September have to do with the new patch? The November Shoutcraft kings was played on the balance test map, but none of the others were.
On November 11 2016 15:10 insitelol wrote: Like i ***ing hate this. Is that a 'new' standard to make intestines-like maps? So you focus more on finding your way out of the maze instead of actually playing the game. 3 heavy rains in the pool. AWESOME. Can you please leave at least 3 standard maps in the pool? Why are you so obsessed with rewamping the pool every ***ing half a year. Game is 6 years old already. There were maps that had proven themselves (like KSS, frost, coda, overgrowth, whirlwind and arguably some others) to be very good and balanced maps. But for some unknown reason people are being afraid to play on 'old' maps. It is almost considered blasphemy. While none of the shit maps DK 'experimented' with (like dash and terminal, dasan and many others) never delivered 'fun' games they were supposed to and were forgotten by everyone. Why keep doing this? FFS.
Most people don't like playing on stagnant maps made for a different game.
Yeah, it was only the November Shoutcraft Kings at Blizzcon that was the special balance test map series. The ones before were with the live balance version.
Here is the official, comprehensive list of changes. They specifically mention removing Medivac pickup but never mention reverting that.
On November 11 2016 15:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Most people don't like playing on stagnant maps made for a different game.
I guess this is the reason KSS is being played in EVERY pro bo3-bo5. Because it stagnant and made for a different game. While dasan station is always the last to choose. Because its fresh and innovative.
On November 11 2016 15:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Most people don't like playing on stagnant maps made for a different game.
I guess this is the reason KSS is being played in EVERY pro bo3-bo5. Because it stagnant and made for a different game. While dasan station is always the last to choose. Because its fresh and innovative.
Dasan isn't played because it's bad, not because of anything innately wrong with new maps. And these maps aren't hugely experimental either. Give the maps a chance to prove themselves before whinging. Every map has to start somewhere.
On November 11 2016 13:27 avilo wrote: Do i need to make a list again of things ignored by the developers and left unaddressed? Here we go.
-snipe should not be cancellable, let this unit not have a handicap -para bomb nerfed / changed to not be so oppressive -raven auto-turret too strong on test map, not sure if this was changed yet.
The problem with any ability in sc2 always was that getting more spellcasters doesn't make the control any harder. Ofc abilities which are designed to be strong are ridiculous when you can easily spam it. Smartcast is the issue, any fix which doesn't address this is a bandaid.
Cyclone Reducing the anti-ground +armored damage by 1. This puts the Cyclone at 3 (+2 vs armored) damage per shot.
you didnt test this did you? nobody is going to make cyclones outside all ins because you didnt adress mass viper or carrier, they will be produced as a gimmick to deny protoss 3rd or allin zerg and thats it
this is going to be SO frustrating for z/p players and adds nothing for mech
you need to take out the cyclones anti ground and make it a pure anti air ranged anti armored unit that can subtitute the immobile thor, but you wont do this and so i can only say "i told you so"
if you are not attacking constantly and you sit and build an army the z/p just go air and you will be contained on ~3 bases until the z has hive or protoss has mass air
also the new cyclone is terribly badly designed; guardian shield and non "armor" tagged units absolutely destroy it, if you are going to nerf an already bad easily hardcountered unit then atleast give us a choice about having the old one over this one, dont just surprise buttsecks us with a huge cyclone nerf after so much discussion on not even implementing the new cyclone to begin with...
and your tank fire rate nerf is entirely uncalled for.
On November 11 2016 08:59 Probe1 wrote: Yeah. It would be nice to see these upgrades research time altered if it's going to be an even bigger commitment to get hydras out. I appreciate that the buff is making hydras very strong but they aren't exactly lights out amazing units right now. One of the big issues with that is when they come out. Adding more tech and delaying it even further is shifting some of their problems from one area and adding new problems to another.
I can't really say. The changes to mech are going to toss everything up.
Hydras are extremely good right now and even splitting their upgrades up might not be enough.
guys wtf is that hate on 3rax reaper??? Just because byun made it work now everyone as to complain about reaper being op??? its same as saying marines are imba because marineking splitted them like god or saying that Lifes lings need to be nerfed because he controlled them well, rly ppl wtf is wrong with u??? Anyway diffrent ways to open are interesting to viewers , do u wanna see only 2 options to expand as terran?
Any atttention to SC2 is great Blizzard. I hope for shorter "Seasons" with fresh maps. I also want that any unit will be given more micro ability. Mostly Zerg and Protoss units lack features that let ProPlayers shine outside of a Mirror matchup. You either have enough units, or you dont. Pretty lame. I dont count spamming abilities as "micro" btw. Corrosive Bile is no micro. Surrounding a drop with lings from 2 sides and after that bile them, thats micro. Make the fights have more duration so Zerg and Protoss actually have the abiltity to FLANK instead of just getting 2 Armies crushed one after another when the stimmed deathblob comes for them, would make Mirrors that much better too. Best thing you can do that = Add HP, remove some damage.
On November 11 2016 07:29 Lunareste wrote: Anyone know when you can buy Dva announcer pack without buying a Virtual Ticket?
You can buy them in-game.
On November 11 2016 15:10 insitelol wrote: Like i ***ing hate this. Is that a 'new' standard to make intestines-like maps? So you focus more on finding your way out of the maze instead of actually playing the game. 3 heavy rains in the pool. AWESOME. Can you please leave at least 3 standard maps in the pool? Why are you so obsessed with rewamping the pool every ***ing half a year. Game is 6 years old already. There were maps that had proven themselves (like KSS, frost, coda, overgrowth, whirlwind and arguably some others) to be very good and balanced maps. But for some unknown reason people are being afraid to play on 'old' maps. It is almost considered blasphemy. While none of the shit maps DK 'experimented' with (like dash and terminal, dasan and many others) never delivered 'fun' games they were supposed to and were forgotten by everyone. Why keep doing this? FFS.
I'm pretty tired of standard maps. I would like very much for the game to get to a point where the "standard" map is much less standard.
On November 11 2016 19:11 KT_Elwood wrote: Any atttention to SC2 is great Blizzard. I hope for shorter "Seasons" with fresh maps. I also want that any unit will be given more micro ability. Mostly Zerg and Protoss units lack features that let ProPlayers shine outside of a Mirror matchup. You either have enough units, or you dont. Pretty lame. I dont count spamming abilities as "micro" btw. Corrosive Bile is no micro. Surrounding a drop with lings from 2 sides and after that bile them, thats micro. Make the fights have more duration so Zerg and Protoss actually have the abiltity to FLANK instead of just getting 2 Armies crushed one after another when the stimmed deathblob comes for them, would make Mirrors that much better too. Best thing you can do that = Add HP, remove some damage.
I almost had to rant until you said spamming abilities don't count as micro, because that is exactly what Blizzard has overloaded us with.
But everything you said is entirely true and I hope Blizzard listens. Especially when it comes to adding HP or removing damage (decreasing attack speed is another way to go). Less damage = units die slower = more time to micro.
One of the most intensive micro scenarios is Blink Stalker/Sentry vs Ling/Roach, because those units (save Lings) all have relatively high hit points but have low DPS.
yep, it really shows the strength of cyclone as early game/all in unit, especially tvt.
I dont think theres really all that much protoss can do vs proxy cyclone on 1 base though. Cyclone may be weaker/bad in midgame but early game they are beasts with no real competition imo
On November 11 2016 19:11 KT_Elwood wrote: Any atttention to SC2 is great Blizzard. I hope for shorter "Seasons" with fresh maps. I also want that any unit will be given more micro ability. Mostly Zerg and Protoss units lack features that let ProPlayers shine outside of a Mirror matchup. You either have enough units, or you dont. Pretty lame. I dont count spamming abilities as "micro" btw. Corrosive Bile is no micro. Surrounding a drop with lings from 2 sides and after that bile them, thats micro. Make the fights have more duration so Zerg and Protoss actually have the abiltity to FLANK instead of just getting 2 Armies crushed one after another when the stimmed deathblob comes for them, would make Mirrors that much better too. Best thing you can do that = Add HP, remove some damage.
I almost had to rant until you said spamming abilities don't count as micro, because that is exactly what Blizzard has overloaded us with.
But everything you said is entirely true and I hope Blizzard listens. Especially when it comes to adding HP or removing damage (decreasing attack speed is another way to go). Less damage = units die slower = more time to micro.
One of the most intensive micro scenarios is Blink Stalker/Sentry vs Ling/Roach, because those units (save Lings) all have relatively high hit points but have low DPS.
I think you are wrong. The best micro scenarios are low unit count scenarios. Why? Because the dps isn't really the problem, the dps/area is the real one (there are units which have too much dps like oracles, but in general it's not a problem). Pathing is the issue which makes "deathballs" in sc2 that boring to watch, the bigger the armies get the worse the interactions are. Ofc you could talk about the whole dmg system, which promotes hard counters and yeah changing that would already be a good first step but pathing (imo) is the bigger factor here
I think it's all this, too much dps/hp, too much dps/area, the pathing is surely the biggest problem but also mechanics of shooting/moving for many units, too many spells/abilities that break interactions and tend to create binary situations and the hard counter system
On November 11 2016 19:11 KT_Elwood wrote: Any atttention to SC2 is great Blizzard. I hope for shorter "Seasons" with fresh maps. I also want that any unit will be given more micro ability. Mostly Zerg and Protoss units lack features that let ProPlayers shine outside of a Mirror matchup. You either have enough units, or you dont. Pretty lame. I dont count spamming abilities as "micro" btw. Corrosive Bile is no micro. Surrounding a drop with lings from 2 sides and after that bile them, thats micro. Make the fights have more duration so Zerg and Protoss actually have the abiltity to FLANK instead of just getting 2 Armies crushed one after another when the stimmed deathblob comes for them, would make Mirrors that much better too. Best thing you can do that = Add HP, remove some damage.
I almost had to rant until you said spamming abilities don't count as micro, because that is exactly what Blizzard has overloaded us with.
But everything you said is entirely true and I hope Blizzard listens. Especially when it comes to adding HP or removing damage (decreasing attack speed is another way to go). Less damage = units die slower = more time to micro.
One of the most intensive micro scenarios is Blink Stalker/Sentry vs Ling/Roach, because those units (save Lings) all have relatively high hit points but have low DPS.
I think you are wrong. The best micro scenarios are low unit count scenarios. Why? Because the dps isn't really the problem, the dps/area is the real one (there are units which have too much dps like oracles, but in general it's not a problem). Pathing is the issue which makes "deathballs" in sc2 that boring to watch, the bigger the armies get the worse the interactions are. Ofc you could talk about the whole dmg system, which promotes hard counters and yeah changing that would already be a good first step but pathing (imo) is the bigger factor here
one question, didn't DK consider reverting the cyclone changes back to the current version of it a few weeks ago? what happened to that most people seemed to be in favor of that?
Has anyone actually got mech to work on the test map?
In my experience, mech still not playable outside of TvT.
The new Hydras makes it really hard to go mech. Vipers still hardcounter every mech unit, both ground and air.
Mech still does not work in TvP since Protoss both have the mobility advantage and can hard counter mech by using either Adepts to shade straight onto your tanks or just mass up on Disruptors which makes it impossible to even move your army forward. It basically seems like there is no way engage Disruptors with mech.
Am I missing something? Has anyone got mech to work outside of TvT against an equally skilled opponent?
On November 11 2016 19:11 KT_Elwood wrote: Any atttention to SC2 is great Blizzard. I hope for shorter "Seasons" with fresh maps. I also want that any unit will be given more micro ability. Mostly Zerg and Protoss units lack features that let ProPlayers shine outside of a Mirror matchup. You either have enough units, or you dont. Pretty lame. I dont count spamming abilities as "micro" btw. Corrosive Bile is no micro. Surrounding a drop with lings from 2 sides and after that bile them, thats micro. Make the fights have more duration so Zerg and Protoss actually have the abiltity to FLANK instead of just getting 2 Armies crushed one after another when the stimmed deathblob comes for them, would make Mirrors that much better too. Best thing you can do that = Add HP, remove some damage.
I almost had to rant until you said spamming abilities don't count as micro, because that is exactly what Blizzard has overloaded us with.
But everything you said is entirely true and I hope Blizzard listens. Especially when it comes to adding HP or removing damage (decreasing attack speed is another way to go). Less damage = units die slower = more time to micro.
One of the most intensive micro scenarios is Blink Stalker/Sentry vs Ling/Roach, because those units (save Lings) all have relatively high hit points but have low DPS.
I think you are wrong. The best micro scenarios are low unit count scenarios. Why? Because the dps isn't really the problem, the dps/area is the real one (there are units which have too much dps like oracles, but in general it's not a problem). Pathing is the issue which makes "deathballs" in sc2 that boring to watch, the bigger the armies get the worse the interactions are. Ofc you could talk about the whole dmg system, which promotes hard counters and yeah changing that would already be a good first step but pathing (imo) is the bigger factor here
I think the Deathblob was never really fun. Especially in TvP. LotV enables more fights before the 200/200, wich is nice. But splitting armies has become less viable, also "saving" an army or retreating has become less of a thing (from my point of view). Once units engange you almost have to fight, save from "high mobility units" like muta,Blink stalker , Dropships, or lings. HaSuObs used stray-Templars to flank terran units, Terran triggered " Units Over Drones" by moving out and moving back. Now Zerg has to just check the clock and decide "thats no strong timing = fake".
For Terran there is still micro potential. Until it gets to the point were you play bandaid vs bandaid, aka 8 armor ultra vs liberator (A move vs autoattack zzzZZZzz) For Protoss some, for zerg almost none. Making more units more quickly (because they trade okay) is more important than army control. Dark uses 1 army control group and ling bane until ultra vs byun. Like a good Diamond player could do. Yes Starcraft was a numbers game, but control, timing, coordination,location all got less important when its the "number of units present" that dominates the engagement. 20 adepts vs 30 marines = dead marines. 20 Zealots ? if terran kites, its a fight, on both parts there is no viable micro for the protoss, besides shade following retreating marines. if there was a templar with the zealots, it's a whole diffrent game.
TvZ is by far the best MU for viewers. Terran micro makes it nailbiting if there are "SOOOOOO MANY BANELINGS" ZvP got super boring with immortal sentry attack on 3rd before Broodlord infestor can come out. PvP has gone from "20 min no rush" to "Please god, no more disruptor Tennis" ZvZ is the least liked MU for viewers (almost no micro/Strat, randomness and plain macro)
Conclusion: Make Z and P have to micro. Make splitting units necessary. Dont flat out buff things because terran players can outmicro them (Ultra, now baneling).
Mech On abyssal is gonna be crazy. Super defensible 4 base+ tons of cliffs for Lib harass. Palladio looks a lot like wol and hots maps it has a very uncomfortable third, either you take the one wiith one entrance and risk having your oponent put there army between you and the third if they pull you to main or you take the open one and get hit by king runbyes for dayz. A lot of these maps look like they encurage very greedy macro play. But mabey it's to far. We will definitely get to learn which race wins late game in each mu on these maps.
On November 11 2016 15:10 insitelol wrote: Like i ***ing hate this. Is that a 'new' standard to make intestines-like maps? So you focus more on finding your way out of the maze instead of actually playing the game. 3 heavy rains in the pool. AWESOME. Can you please leave at least 3 standard maps in the pool? Why are you so obsessed with rewamping the pool every ***ing half a year. Game is 6 years old already. There were maps that had proven themselves (like KSS, frost, coda, overgrowth, whirlwind and arguably some others) to be very good and balanced maps. But for some unknown reason people are being afraid to play on 'old' maps. It is almost considered blasphemy. While none of the shit maps DK 'experimented' with (like dash and terminal, dasan and many others) never delivered 'fun' games they were supposed to and were forgotten by everyone. Why keep doing this? FFS.
It's posts like this that remind me why blizzard's task is so large. The reason they changed to these maps in the first place was because of community outcry that we would have to play maps we had already played to death back in hots and earlier seasons of lotv. Maps are a key factor in adding variety and fun to sc2. I agree that realy wild maps can be unhealthy for the game. For instance giving a player multiple ramps, early gold bases, hyper abusable terrain can make some maps feal very unfair and in the past has broken the game. Like when the map pool was super favorable for 2 base blink allins. With that being said no variety also sucks. Maps do a lot to set the meta game so the meta tends to get very very stale if we don't have new and interesting maps added in and old ones taken out. Plus these maps will take the game in a direction we have not seen much of from lotv yet. So far most bugs to maps have been very simplistic and fairly open. This contributes to Terran having such a hard time in the late game vs Zerg. The more constricted a map the more Terran is able to play the late game. These kind of maps might also push lurkers back into the zvp meta. Right now ravager bane is the norm but since this is a very open space dependent comp it may see less play on constricted maps. I'm not sure these maps will be fair, but they at least will lead to late game scenarios and offer players more interesting games in the late game. Overall I'm realy excited.
On November 11 2016 19:11 KT_Elwood wrote: Any atttention to SC2 is great Blizzard. I hope for shorter "Seasons" with fresh maps. I also want that any unit will be given more micro ability. Mostly Zerg and Protoss units lack features that let ProPlayers shine outside of a Mirror matchup. You either have enough units, or you dont. Pretty lame. I dont count spamming abilities as "micro" btw. Corrosive Bile is no micro. Surrounding a drop with lings from 2 sides and after that bile them, thats micro. Make the fights have more duration so Zerg and Protoss actually have the abiltity to FLANK instead of just getting 2 Armies crushed one after another when the stimmed deathblob comes for them, would make Mirrors that much better too. Best thing you can do that = Add HP, remove some damage.
I almost had to rant until you said spamming abilities don't count as micro, because that is exactly what Blizzard has overloaded us with.
But everything you said is entirely true and I hope Blizzard listens. Especially when it comes to adding HP or removing damage (decreasing attack speed is another way to go). Less damage = units die slower = more time to micro.
One of the most intensive micro scenarios is Blink Stalker/Sentry vs Ling/Roach, because those units (save Lings) all have relatively high hit points but have low DPS.
I think you are wrong. The best micro scenarios are low unit count scenarios. Why? Because the dps isn't really the problem, the dps/area is the real one (there are units which have too much dps like oracles, but in general it's not a problem). Pathing is the issue which makes "deathballs" in sc2 that boring to watch, the bigger the armies get the worse the interactions are. Ofc you could talk about the whole dmg system, which promotes hard counters and yeah changing that would already be a good first step but pathing (imo) is the bigger factor here
I think the Deathblob was never really fun. Especially in TvP. LotV enables more fights before the 200/200, wich is nice. But splitting armies has become less viable, also "saving" an army or retreating has become less of a thing (from my point of view). Once units engange you almost have to fight, save from "high mobility units" like muta,Blink stalker , Dropships, or lings. HaSuObs used stray-Templars to flank terran units, Terran triggered " Units Over Drones" by moving out and moving back. Now Zerg has to just check the clock and decide "thats no strong timing = fake".
For Terran there is still micro potential. Until it gets to the point were you play bandaid vs bandaid, aka 8 armor ultra vs liberator (A move vs autoattack zzzZZZzz) For Protoss some, for zerg almost none. Making more units more quickly (because they trade okay) is more important than army control. Dark uses 1 army control group and ling bane until ultra vs byun. Like a good Diamond player could do. Yes Starcraft was a numbers game, but control, timing, coordination,location all got less important when its the "number of units present" that dominates the engagement. 20 adepts vs 30 marines = dead marines. 20 Zealots ? if terran kites, its a fight, on both parts there is no viable micro for the protoss, besides shade following retreating marines. if there was a templar with the zealots, it's a whole diffrent game.
TvZ is by far the best MU for viewers. Terran micro makes it nailbiting if there are "SOOOOOO MANY BANELINGS" ZvP got super boring with immortal sentry attack on 3rd before Broodlord infestor can come out. PvP has gone from "20 min no rush" to "Please god, no more disruptor Tennis" ZvZ is the least liked MU for viewers (almost no micro/Strat, randomness and plain macro)
Conclusion: Make Z and P have to micro. Make splitting units necessary. Dont flat out buff things because terran players can outmicro them (Ultra, now baneling).
So obvious what race you play. Terran is the most broken race right now. TvT is a 1 hour snorefest
On November 11 2016 19:11 KT_Elwood wrote: Any atttention to SC2 is great Blizzard. I hope for shorter "Seasons" with fresh maps. I also want that any unit will be given more micro ability. Mostly Zerg and Protoss units lack features that let ProPlayers shine outside of a Mirror matchup. You either have enough units, or you dont. Pretty lame. I dont count spamming abilities as "micro" btw. Corrosive Bile is no micro. Surrounding a drop with lings from 2 sides and after that bile them, thats micro. Make the fights have more duration so Zerg and Protoss actually have the abiltity to FLANK instead of just getting 2 Armies crushed one after another when the stimmed deathblob comes for them, would make Mirrors that much better too. Best thing you can do that = Add HP, remove some damage.
I almost had to rant until you said spamming abilities don't count as micro, because that is exactly what Blizzard has overloaded us with.
But everything you said is entirely true and I hope Blizzard listens. Especially when it comes to adding HP or removing damage (decreasing attack speed is another way to go). Less damage = units die slower = more time to micro.
One of the most intensive micro scenarios is Blink Stalker/Sentry vs Ling/Roach, because those units (save Lings) all have relatively high hit points but have low DPS.
I think you are wrong. The best micro scenarios are low unit count scenarios. Why? Because the dps isn't really the problem, the dps/area is the real one (there are units which have too much dps like oracles, but in general it's not a problem). Pathing is the issue which makes "deathballs" in sc2 that boring to watch, the bigger the armies get the worse the interactions are. Ofc you could talk about the whole dmg system, which promotes hard counters and yeah changing that would already be a good first step but pathing (imo) is the bigger factor here
I think the Deathblob was never really fun. Especially in TvP. LotV enables more fights before the 200/200, wich is nice. But splitting armies has become less viable, also "saving" an army or retreating has become less of a thing (from my point of view). Once units engange you almost have to fight, save from "high mobility units" like muta,Blink stalker , Dropships, or lings. HaSuObs used stray-Templars to flank terran units, Terran triggered " Units Over Drones" by moving out and moving back. Now Zerg has to just check the clock and decide "thats no strong timing = fake".
For Terran there is still micro potential. Until it gets to the point were you play bandaid vs bandaid, aka 8 armor ultra vs liberator (A move vs autoattack zzzZZZzz) For Protoss some, for zerg almost none. Making more units more quickly (because they trade okay) is more important than army control. Dark uses 1 army control group and ling bane until ultra vs byun. Like a good Diamond player could do. Yes Starcraft was a numbers game, but control, timing, coordination,location all got less important when its the "number of units present" that dominates the engagement. 20 adepts vs 30 marines = dead marines. 20 Zealots ? if terran kites, its a fight, on both parts there is no viable micro for the protoss, besides shade following retreating marines. if there was a templar with the zealots, it's a whole diffrent game.
TvZ is by far the best MU for viewers. Terran micro makes it nailbiting if there are "SOOOOOO MANY BANELINGS" ZvP got super boring with immortal sentry attack on 3rd before Broodlord infestor can come out. PvP has gone from "20 min no rush" to "Please god, no more disruptor Tennis" ZvZ is the least liked MU for viewers (almost no micro/Strat, randomness and plain macro)
Conclusion: Make Z and P have to micro. Make splitting units necessary. Dont flat out buff things because terran players can outmicro them (Ultra, now baneling).
Make Z or P have to micro...I would agree with this if Zerg units were made strong and cost effective as Terran or Toss units. In other scenario its ballshit. I think increasing speed and range of Hydralisk is Blizzards idea to give Zerg unit, which can give value with micro potential. I wouldnt agree more with that, as i always felt the lack of micro rewarding units in Zerg arsenal. Bu your proposal of - forcing Zerg or Toss to split suggests giving Terran some mobile splash damage. In the scenario of Terran having the most cost efficient comp in the game which is bio. Zerg was designed as a race which basics is macro and spamming swarm of units- weaker, worse than Toss or Terran but the power of Zerg was in numbers. Nowadays with 25% nerf of macro mechanics Zerg has no midgame because of that. Thats why we are forced to turtle till lategame to acces really strong units which can compete with Terran. Every midgame composition vs Terran is ballshit as Muta/Bling is hard countered EZ in LOTV and the only strong thing that we had-macro/eco- is nerfed to the ground.
On November 11 2016 19:11 KT_Elwood wrote: Any atttention to SC2 is great Blizzard. I hope for shorter "Seasons" with fresh maps. I also want that any unit will be given more micro ability. Mostly Zerg and Protoss units lack features that let ProPlayers shine outside of a Mirror matchup. You either have enough units, or you dont. Pretty lame. I dont count spamming abilities as "micro" btw. Corrosive Bile is no micro. Surrounding a drop with lings from 2 sides and after that bile them, thats micro. Make the fights have more duration so Zerg and Protoss actually have the abiltity to FLANK instead of just getting 2 Armies crushed one after another when the stimmed deathblob comes for them, would make Mirrors that much better too. Best thing you can do that = Add HP, remove some damage.
I almost had to rant until you said spamming abilities don't count as micro, because that is exactly what Blizzard has overloaded us with.
But everything you said is entirely true and I hope Blizzard listens. Especially when it comes to adding HP or removing damage (decreasing attack speed is another way to go). Less damage = units die slower = more time to micro.
One of the most intensive micro scenarios is Blink Stalker/Sentry vs Ling/Roach, because those units (save Lings) all have relatively high hit points but have low DPS.
I think you are wrong. The best micro scenarios are low unit count scenarios. Why? Because the dps isn't really the problem, the dps/area is the real one (there are units which have too much dps like oracles, but in general it's not a problem). Pathing is the issue which makes "deathballs" in sc2 that boring to watch, the bigger the armies get the worse the interactions are. Ofc you could talk about the whole dmg system, which promotes hard counters and yeah changing that would already be a good first step but pathing (imo) is the bigger factor here
I think the Deathblob was never really fun. Especially in TvP. LotV enables more fights before the 200/200, wich is nice. But splitting armies has become less viable, also "saving" an army or retreating has become less of a thing (from my point of view). Once units engange you almost have to fight, save from "high mobility units" like muta,Blink stalker , Dropships, or lings. HaSuObs used stray-Templars to flank terran units, Terran triggered " Units Over Drones" by moving out and moving back. Now Zerg has to just check the clock and decide "thats no strong timing = fake".
For Terran there is still micro potential. Until it gets to the point were you play bandaid vs bandaid, aka 8 armor ultra vs liberator (A move vs autoattack zzzZZZzz) For Protoss some, for zerg almost none. Making more units more quickly (because they trade okay) is more important than army control. Dark uses 1 army control group and ling bane until ultra vs byun. Like a good Diamond player could do. Yes Starcraft was a numbers game, but control, timing, coordination,location all got less important when its the "number of units present" that dominates the engagement. 20 adepts vs 30 marines = dead marines. 20 Zealots ? if terran kites, its a fight, on both parts there is no viable micro for the protoss, besides shade following retreating marines. if there was a templar with the zealots, it's a whole diffrent game.
TvZ is by far the best MU for viewers. Terran micro makes it nailbiting if there are "SOOOOOO MANY BANELINGS" ZvP got super boring with immortal sentry attack on 3rd before Broodlord infestor can come out. PvP has gone from "20 min no rush" to "Please god, no more disruptor Tennis" ZvZ is the least liked MU for viewers (almost no micro/Strat, randomness and plain macro)
Conclusion: Make Z and P have to micro. Make splitting units necessary. Dont flat out buff things because terran players can outmicro them (Ultra, now baneling).
So obvious what race you play. Terran is the most broken race right now. TvT is a 1 hour snorefest
Uhh no it isn't... Have you watched SC2 recently or are you just parroting the old stereotype from previous expansions?
It always seemed ridiculous to me how Zealots are Protoss' first army unit and yet they are basically never made in the early game. It is part of the reason why Protoss defense is so terrible early game (the other being warp gate research time)... look at how effective all the proxy cheese is in PvT in the balance map tourney. New Zealot speed buff from charge should've been a buff to their base speed to 3.5.
On November 14 2016 08:24 Skyro wrote: It always seemed ridiculous to me how Zealots are Protoss' first army unit and yet they are basically never made in the early game. It is part of the reason why Protoss defense is so terrible early game (the other being warp gate research time)... look at how effective all the proxy cheese is in PvT in the balance map tourney. New Zealot speed buff from charge should've been a buff to their base speed to 3.5.
People have historically been scared of zealot proxies but i think they should be - marines & lings are significant early game threats
Timings and optimization have always been a huge part of PvZ
Still are. ZvP is still defend the protons timing, perform timing of your own. Very rarely do you progress to the late game. Someone always gains enough of an advantage that they continue to push until they win.
I Still think that Terran is the dancer and Zerg is the pole......if you know what I mean. Zerg can't shine with micro or positioning, best zerg can do is automaton 2000 Macro. You are there to watch the Terran perform or at least hit his head in a funny way.
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6AkMmMb.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sRyDI5zh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OrzJAsn.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nK9K0tb.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Oghfq7s.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/page_media/iv/IVVA3RBO2PFB1478649362986.png)
![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/page_media/DJ4UQEMVWO461478649341209.png)
![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/page_media/0K6CIKYQMGSY1478649341219.png)
![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/page_media/2FAA5975XUNQ1478649341222.png)
