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Due to BlizzCon this week, we only have a short update to follow up with last week's.
First, we want to clear something up regarding the major patch. We’re still aiming to release it to the live game shortly after BlizzCon. We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
Regarding maps, we’ve changed up the list thanks to your feedback. If you have any additional thoughts, please let us know.
Daybreak
Echo
Habitation Station
Overgrowth
Newkirk Precinct TE
Whirlwind
Vaani Research station
Regarding community maps, we clearly agree that they’re valuable and will continue using more community maps in Season 1 of 2017.
Some other important things to note: the offseason is a very short timeframe compared to a regular season, major changes going into the game really need a full live pass before they’re polished, and we have to spend the little time that we have remaining this year on the upcoming changes rather than learning new maps.
See you guys at Blizzcon!
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glad to see they replaced the 2 worst maps from the previous post (dusk towers and ulrena). this is actually an extremely solid map pool, maybe a little too standard for my liking - i get why they're doing it, it's for balance testing, but i still wish they were more adventurous and willing to try out some new maps.
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It is far from the ideal I agree with you Neg, and yeah, what they are doing has value, yet this time around I can't avoid thinking why are they adding Vaani, I really don't know what thing of value does that map add to the pool. I specifically mentioned it on my little blog to avoid said map even when it might be tempting to add. But idk, maybe I'm trying too hard to micromanage this business, and DevTeam might be thinking the same way?
Anyhow, I'm looking forward to Whirwind, that will be a very fun lategame MechVZ map to play on and test the viability of exposed bases vs "pocket" expansions ala BW
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I liked Vaani so I'm happy.
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I would have liked to see Coda instead of Overgrowth or Vaani tbh. Overgrowth had its year on ladder (felt like a decade), any more is just torture. Vaani is another turtly map.
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I think that Vaani and Whirlwind could be a nice addition. Fingers crossed.
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Id like to groan about overgrowth but i can live with it. It's a good map all things considered. I appreciate the quick changes in response to the feedback. Well done team.
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if they're testing the strength of buffed tanks, i can see why they might want to have both the extremes of constricted maps (echo) and open maps (vaani)
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Sad about Daybreak and habitation, the other maps are great tho. Overgrowth hype
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Did they ever put the Siege ability as a research again?
Only reason I ask is because on maps like Vaani and Overgrowth (which was already a notorious mech split map) the new tanks feel like they will be totally unstoppable unless Zerg just plays very defensive until Hive.
I'm cool with tanks and mech being better, I'm not currently cool with how Terran is able to build 1 or 2 tanks mere minutes into the game that halts all aggression in it's tracks.
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when will they let Overgrowth die? It's been 2 and a half years now.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On November 03 2016 05:31 Noonius wrote:
when will they let Overgrowth die? It's been 2 and a half years now.
Really? And how old is Daybreak?
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fuck yes they're bringing back habitation station
would prefer foxtrot labs instead of one of overgrowth/daybreak but this seems like a very fun mappool
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Where's Cloud Kingdom?!?!?!?
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On November 03 2016 05:31 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Did they ever put the Siege ability as a research again?
Only reason I ask is because on maps like Vaani and Overgrowth (which was already a notorious mech split map) the new tanks feel like they will be totally unstoppable unless Zerg just plays very defensive until Hive.
I'm cool with tanks and mech being better, I'm not currently cool with how Terran is able to build 1 or 2 tanks mere minutes into the game that halts all aggression in it's tracks.
My experience that it's other way around due to hydra strength that crushes siege line not behind a good turret wall off
Tank do and hold off aggression behind wall but not on open field I find. The concave from 7 range is pretty huge
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On November 03 2016 05:44 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 05:31 Noonius wrote:
when will they let Overgrowth die? It's been 2 and a half years now. Really? And how old is Daybreak?
At least (the 1 month dreampool period aside) Daybreak got left behind competitively and on ladder in 2013. Overgrowth got introduced in 2014. It was still on ladder early 2015. It was still used in tournament play until Rain won GSL. And it was brought back not even a year later for Proleague.
A year without Overgrowth would be progress. Especially considering all the good community maps out there waiting to replace the old maps on ladder.
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Not enough vetos for this 
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On November 03 2016 06:00 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 05:31 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Did they ever put the Siege ability as a research again?
Only reason I ask is because on maps like Vaani and Overgrowth (which was already a notorious mech split map) the new tanks feel like they will be totally unstoppable unless Zerg just plays very defensive until Hive.
I'm cool with tanks and mech being better, I'm not currently cool with how Terran is able to build 1 or 2 tanks mere minutes into the game that halts all aggression in it's tracks. My experience that it's other way around due to hydra strength that crushes siege line not behind a good turret wall off Tank do and hold off aggression behind wall but not on open field I find. The concave from 7 range is pretty huge
This could be the case, I'm a high diamond player but it's more then feasible that my macro is too weak to fully exploit Hydralisks vs Terran, they seem absurdly powerful vs. Protoss but even in their current format they feel not exactly worth the money vs. Terran because stimmed bio still murders them and the new tanks extra murder them and of course they are immobile compared to zerglings and Mutalisks so drop play is still the go to answer.
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We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK.
people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better.
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Habitation Station died prematurely. Glad it's back.
Cactus Valley though? That was another map that needed more time.
Meanwhile, Daybreak never dies xD
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On November 03 2016 06:21 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 06:00 jinjin5000 wrote:On November 03 2016 05:31 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Did they ever put the Siege ability as a research again?
Only reason I ask is because on maps like Vaani and Overgrowth (which was already a notorious mech split map) the new tanks feel like they will be totally unstoppable unless Zerg just plays very defensive until Hive.
I'm cool with tanks and mech being better, I'm not currently cool with how Terran is able to build 1 or 2 tanks mere minutes into the game that halts all aggression in it's tracks. My experience that it's other way around due to hydra strength that crushes siege line not behind a good turret wall off Tank do and hold off aggression behind wall but not on open field I find. The concave from 7 range is pretty huge This could be the case, I'm a high diamond player but it's more then feasible that my macro is too weak to fully exploit Hydralisks vs Terran, they seem absurdly powerful vs. Protoss but even in their current format they feel not exactly worth the money vs. Terran because stimmed bio still murders them and the new tanks extra murder them and of course they are immobile compared to zerglings and Mutalisks so drop play is still the go to answer.
Vs bio, ling bling muta should be fine since liberator nerf, baneling buff and infestor burrow cast
I am talking about mech Vs zerg though. Having good spread and surround makes a world of difference Vs clumped up ball of units with hydra especially. Mitigates splash and gets full dps out in 7 range in pretty rapid phase being slightly lower than hellion on creep.
What me and my friends found out that it's better to skip making other units for army and just go straight to pure hydralisks, with vipers in good amount later on to mass abduct/binding cloud. Transition into mass bl is also good but not when there are less than 6 bls as bls only really work well on critical number, much like new hydra
Unless you are doing a timing, roaches seem to largely be a liability since it takes huge bonus damage from tanks. Critical amount of hydra should be able to take care of hellbats
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Im so glad they have Overgrowth and Whirlwind in the map pool. i dont really mind the other maps but those two are my all time favorite.
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On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better.
Thats because of how bullshit tempest new ability is/was, I didn't play anymore after seeing that.
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On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better.
There is simply not enough people playing the test map for the matchmaking to work. The wait is at least 5 min for me. (I'm only bottom of the diamond and I either stomp my opponent (more than half the time) or I get stomped (less than 1 in 4 games if I even get 4 games in a roll). Right now if it is just to gather data it is better just play with someone you are familiar with (and develop from there).
This make it worse for people who want to use the test feature but have limited time to do so. The less player in the ranking system the less efficient the matchmaking goes. I doubt they actually have enough player to fill the bare minimum.
(It irritates me how people talks about balance and testing yet themselves do not actual play. So far no one has even bother to notice and post about how strong the 5 mineral interceptors are.)
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On November 03 2016 07:29 AnathemAbw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better. Thats because of how bullshit tempest new ability is/was, I didn't play anymore after seeing that.
If you have that mindset as a QA specialist...
http://randsinrepose.com/archives/the-qa-mindset/
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We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped
Well maybe thats because you gave protoss an absurd aoe ability that made the testmap unplayable while not even testing to give mech anti air supremacy once for balance?!
if you just tested giving mech the hyperballistic missile from niceusernames map you would get so much testing you wouldnt have any doubts about balance whatsoever, but because you dont change anything for mech (its not our anti ground thats bad, its our lack of anti air!) the testmap is only really interesting for gm level mech players that strive for tiny improvements
you need to give MUCH better anti air, and if you dont know what i am talking about you need to ask players like immvp, gumiho, innovation or mario/ruff/avilo why theyd rather play bio over mech
i would start off with giving thors 13 range so the javelin missiles can actually travel to the targets that have 10 range before they abduct you instantly or blinding cloud you, and likewise so that you can stack thors on the ground against carriers instead of having only one line of thors able to shoot while the entire golden armada fires back
again the only thing this map changes is TvT where tankivac removal and tank buff makes mech players a lot stronger, we want weaker ground stronger anti air!
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On November 03 2016 12:18 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 07:29 AnathemAbw wrote:On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better. Thats because of how bullshit tempest new ability is/was, I didn't play anymore after seeing that. If you have that mindset as a QA specialist... http://randsinrepose.com/archives/the-qa-mindset/
Don't blame the player base.
Blizzard is offloading their testing onto the player base, who do it for free. Designing the game so that some people can't have fun testing it is Blizzard's fault, not the players, who are again doing it for free and play the game only because they think it is fun and enjoyable. So don't blame the players and expect them to change their mindset.
Blizzard is getting exactly what they paid for. The solution to this issue is more appealing game design, more work done internally.
And honestly, good game design ideas work, and bad ones don't. Balance is last piece of polishing, and constantly fluctuates as new things are added into the game and new strategies discovered. But this isn't about balance of course, it is about game design ideas. Blizzard really shouldn't need this kind of testing to understand what ideas work, and which ones don't, idea development should be an internal initiative done by the game designers who get paid to do that. But Blizzard continues their strategy of throwing out ideas and seeing which ones the community thinks are good.
In fact, I think the last piece of the article you linked us to sums it up well:
It’s not that QA can discover what is wrong, they intimately understand what is right and they unfailingly strive to push the product in that direction.
Blizzard doesn't have a QA department that handles testing effectively and thus fails to intimately understand what is right about SC2, and so Blizzard has no ability to push SC2 in a positive direction.
Using the community as the QA department to tell you what is right or wrong, is exactly why SC2 had been in a downward spiral since WOL. Especially when the most important parts of the community are ignored, like the Korea pro-gamers who recently said the game was too hard, which was followed by an explanation from David Kim telling us why the pro-gamers were wrong.
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On November 03 2016 14:48 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 12:18 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:On November 03 2016 07:29 AnathemAbw wrote:On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better. Thats because of how bullshit tempest new ability is/was, I didn't play anymore after seeing that. If you have that mindset as a QA specialist... http://randsinrepose.com/archives/the-qa-mindset/ Don't blame the player base. Blizzard is offloading their testing onto the player base, who do it for free. Designing the game so that some people can't have fun testing it is Blizzard's fault, not the players, who are again doing it for free and play the game only because they think it is fun and enjoyable. So don't blame the players and expect them to change their mindset. Blizzard is getting exactly what they paid for. The solution to this issue is more appealing game design, more work done internally. And honestly, good game design ideas work, and bad ones don't. Balance is last piece of polishing, and constantly fluctuates as new things are added into the game and new strategies discovered. But this isn't about balance of course, it is about game design ideas. Blizzard really shouldn't need this kind of testing to understand what ideas work, and which ones don't, idea development should be an internal initiative done by the game designers who get paid to do that. But Blizzard continues their strategy of throwing out ideas and seeing which ones the community thinks are good. In fact, I think the last piece of the article you linked us to sums it up well: Show nested quote +It’s not that QA can discover what is wrong, they intimately understand what is right and they unfailingly strive to push the product in that direction. Blizzard doesn't have a QA department that handles testing effectively and thus fails to intimately understand what is right about SC2, and thus Blizzard has no ability to push SC2 in a positive direction.Using the community as the QA department to tell you what is right or wrong, is exactly why SC2 had been in a downward spiral since WOL. Especially when the most important parts of the community are ignored, like the Korea pro-gamers who recently said the game was too hard, which was followed by an explanation from David Kim telling us why the pro-gamers were wrong.
In the very beginning, Dustin Browder at least had overall design goals, however controversial it is. Now most of those goals are neglected. In other games, the open testing will have enough players to "polish" it. I agree with you the open testing for free should not be used as a design testing ground (unless Starcraft 2 is open source). Starcraft 2 right now does not have that large enough a player base to effectively open test for design. Maybe for numerical balancing (I am even questioning that but I don't have numbers so I cannot make such claim.) Compare to Blizz's own other product, say WoW's PTR, there isn't enough incentive for player to test for free and be compensated.
I would compare the current Starcraft to EVE Online before CCP Seagull. Until CCP Seagul come along (with the help of CSM) give EVE Online a direction, the patches are random and the game is quite stale. We do not need a visionary. We just need a direction. I understand we cannot have Starcraft players have something similar to the CSM (or maybe we could).
Most of the testing should be forecast and minor tweaks. Mass test are done because the emergence simply cannot be tested otherwise. The design decision should be made months ahead.
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Can somebody explain me, why are they testing balance on the dreampool? What's wrong with current or new maps? Are the dozens of maps people make really not enough, so that we have to use the same old maps over and over and over again? I won't load the balance test for the sheer panic of playing on Daybreak ...
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On November 03 2016 17:50 opisska wrote:
Can somebody explain me, why are they testing balance on the dreampool? What's wrong with current or new maps? Are the dozens of maps people make really not enough, so that we have to use the same old maps over and over and over again? I won't load the balance test for the sheer panic of playing on Daybreak ...
These are gonna be ladder maps so just veto it 
I don't think there's much of a point to it. Maybe they wanted to see what kinds of maps work without going out of their way and looking at all the community maps that are out. That would be kinda lazy but also not surprising.
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On November 03 2016 12:39 FoxDog wrote:Well maybe thats because you gave protoss an absurd aoe ability that made the testmap unplayable while not even testing to give mech anti air supremacy once for balance?! if you just tested giving mech the hyperballistic missile from niceusernames map you would get so much testing you wouldnt have any doubts about balance whatsoever, but because you dont change anything for mech (its not our anti ground thats bad, its our lack of anti air!) the testmap is only really interesting for gm level mech players that strive for tiny improvements you need to give MUCH better anti air, and if you dont know what i am talking about you need to ask players like immvp, gumiho, innovation or mario/ruff/avilo why theyd rather play bio over mech i would start off with giving thors 13 range so the javelin missiles can actually travel to the targets that have 10 range before they abduct you instantly or blinding cloud you, and likewise so that you can stack thors on the ground against carriers instead of having only one line of thors able to shoot while the entire golden armada fires back again the only thing this map changes is TvT where tankivac removal and tank buff makes mech players a lot stronger, we want weaker ground stronger anti air!
Yeah, because that's what mech needs- to be uncounterable. I loved this 13 range Thor part, where u wrote that Thor needs to kill Vipers before they come in range of abduct or blinding cloud. Yrah- let's make mech auto win again haha. That was hilarious. In that case, Zerg needs a unit that can kill siegetanks before they shoot once, or a unit that kills medivack before it leaves Terran base. Hahaha my god, i love that kind of "balance specialists"
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On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok.
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Calling it.
Playerbase dropping to 100k after patch hits live.
"Remember this post".
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On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok.
What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed.
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On November 03 2016 12:12 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better. There is simply not enough people playing the test map for the matchmaking to work. ... (It irritates me how people talks about balance and testing yet themselves do not actual play. So far no one has even bother to notice and post about how strong the 5 mineral interceptors are.)
ya you make a good point. its become a chicken/egg thing. i'm on the NA server and i don't get well suited opponents via the test map matchmaker.
On November 03 2016 15:42 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
Starcraft 2 right now does not have that large enough a player base to effectively open test for design. Maybe for numerical balancing (I am even questioning that but I don't have numbers so I cannot make such claim.) Compare to Blizz's own other product, say WoW's PTR, there isn't enough incentive for player to test for free and be compensated.
DK/Blizz is hoping the "love of the game" will be enough compensation. He mentioned in an earlier weekly update about how great everything will be when the game is finally well balanced AND well designed.
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On November 03 2016 22:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 12:12 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better. There is simply not enough people playing the test map for the matchmaking to work. ... (It irritates me how people talks about balance and testing yet themselves do not actual play. So far no one has even bother to notice and post about how strong the 5 mineral interceptors are.) ya you make a good point. its become a chicken/egg thing. i'm on the NA server and i don't get well suited opponents via the test map matchmaker.
I search it pretty regularly, but it usually takes some 10 minutes to find a game, and half the time the opponent just asks me to leave so they can get the portrait.
Very rarely do I get someone at my skill level.
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i think Blizzard was hoping lots of people would use the matchmaker and they'd get the critical mass required to test.
i wonder if this has ever succeeded with any RTS game post sale? it probably has worked several times pre-sale with a strong enough franchise.
On November 03 2016 20:23 insitelol wrote:
Calling it.
Playerbase dropping to 100k after patch hits live.
"Remember this post".
you're that same guy that predicted "the internet will get bigger" back in 1997 so i listen carefully when you make a projection.
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Is there even a comprehensive and up-to-date list of all current changes? It seems like the current list in the game is outdated.
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On November 03 2016 22:59 KeksX wrote:
Is there even a comprehensive and up-to-date list of all current changes? It seems like the current list in the game is outdated.
There's not. there's the one in game, which was the original, and there's a post on the forums with the latest changes. Everything in between is somewhere on a forum, but mot easy to find.
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I always liked Whirlwind. I don't really know how it'll play but it's a great map for space and longer games.
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They can still change things after Blizzcone as there's gonna be Shoutcraft Kings played on the balance changes.
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On November 03 2016 22:59 KeksX wrote:
Is there even a comprehensive and up-to-date list of all current changes? It seems like the current list in the game is outdated.
I'm pretty sure the list that is in-game is updated. If it says that Tempest has 8 range instead of 6 then it's up to date, can't check it now myself
Plus I think the latest change was a new Tempest ability, it's listed there and I played around with it, so it has to be right
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On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed.
To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs.
Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities.
The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover.
The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources.
The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly.
The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs.
Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units).
It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources.
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Okay the two worst maps are gone.. but it's still a big freaking list of maps that weren't designed for LotV economy. What the heck.
On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better.
The only time this works is when you're adding new content. They aren't. They're tweaking the existing content. There only motivation for players is to bitch from a position of experience/authority. There is no reward. Unless the game was so wholly broken in current patch that it is flat out better to play experimental then there's no benefit for the players.
Like many other modern concepts, Blizzard only understands early access from a fiscal point of view (Overwatch beta) and not from a development standpoint.
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On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources.
Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped?
I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech.
It's boring.
It's not satisfying.
It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake.
It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games.
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On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games.
Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah.
No idea why, not like we ever see them now.
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Overgrowth
Newkirk Precinct TE
Whirlwind
Vaani Research station
Im happy to see theese maps again altho im still waiting for Neo Planet S to be in the pool again
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On November 04 2016 00:33 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games. Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah. No idea why, not like we ever see them now.
What is your requirement for a unit to be "ever seen"? To be used commonly as Roach or Hydralisk? I'm watching mostly Protoss streams and I see Brood Lords very often in PvZ, from last WCS matches I clearly remember that Dark played Brood Lord/Corruptor in the first match against Stats on New Gettysburg but overmade Corruptors after wiping out air army Stats had and just died because of no gas
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On November 03 2016 04:27 -NegativeZero- wrote:
glad to see they replaced the 2 worst maps from the previous post (dusk towers and ulrena). this is actually an extremely solid map pool, maybe a little too standard for my liking - i get why they're doing it, it's for balance testing, but i still wish they were more adventurous and willing to try out some new maps.
literally the opposite feedback of what they received for trying out new maps. i guess you cant satisfy everyone.
also it looks like they really want to see a lot of mech, not really looking forward to that.
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On November 04 2016 00:33 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games. Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah. No idea why, not like we ever see them now.
It still good vs mech but it's bad at low numbers now
I think zerg midgame will be way more solid than mech in midgame due to buffed hydras and with viper mixed in, it would be extremely hard for mech to move out since hydra trads well in good spread
With vipers out with its multipurpose spells, yes mech wouldn't want to trade or initiate it unless viper energy is depleted. It's not really great to lose gas units with abduct and para bomb late game when bases are becoming mined out when zerg can replenish their energy relatively quickly. With para bomb and abduct, you don't really wanna engage without turret wall in front ensuring some vipers would die during exchange
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On November 04 2016 00:49 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 00:33 InfCereal wrote:On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games. Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah. No idea why, not like we ever see them now. What is your requirement for a unit to be "ever seen"? To be used commonly as Roach or Hydralisk? I'm watching mostly Protoss streams and I see Brood Lords very often in PvZ, from last WCS matches I clearly remember that Dark played Brood Lord/Corruptor in the first match against Stats on New Gettysburg but overmade Corruptors after wiping out air army Stats had and just died because of no gas
I think what he's getting at is you don't make brood lords unless you need brood lords. They have a very specific purpose in match ups and need a whole lot of supporting units or else they get shrekt. The comparison is being made to ultralisks which stand on their own as an awesome and useful unit.
Their need to be babysat gives players a bad taste since their cost (both in resources and time) is pretty high.
Sure we see them. But we see them as a response and for a specialized task. So the proposed nerf is saying "Hey you know that unit you don't really like making? Here's another reason!"
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On November 03 2016 20:23 insitelol wrote:
Calling it.
Playerbase dropping to 100k after patch hits live.
"Remember this post".
Ha, if we actually have 100k competitive players that would be an improvement. (Even popular browser games like Kancolle have more dedicated players than what SC2 have for competitive. If you want to compare to a niche game with similar complexity that require significant time investment, EVE online have about the same number of people logged in per day yet their PCU keeps going down as well. Those EVE players player are on subscription and many of them subbed and don't log in unless they absolutely have to.)
Right now I can safely say a significant portion of the server load is on Co-op missions. (Not that there is anything wrong with it.)
Ref:
http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=0&r=-2&sx=a&sy=c
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility http://web.archive.org/web/20150425191903/http://ascii.jp/elem/000/001/0j01/1001334/
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On November 04 2016 00:49 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 00:33 InfCereal wrote:On November 04 2016 00:13 Probe1 wrote:On November 03 2016 23:59 JackONeill wrote:On November 03 2016 22:44 hiroshOne wrote:On November 03 2016 19:02 JackONeill wrote:
On the one hand, people considering the thor should obliterate the viper before it can do anything is stupid, on the other people considering that the viper should be able to pick off units for free and disable entire positions for 75 energy without any risk is stupid too.
The main issue with HOTS and LOTV units design is that many of them rely on "free" damage. Tempest outranging any unit in the game, viper abduct, SH.
Any unit should be about trading, trading well or trading poorly. Overwhelm a tank with 20 lings you'll trade favorably, but the tank will still kill a ling or three. And that's one of the most specialised unit in WOL.
However, having tempest + revelation kill stuff for free is not ok. Having the viper pickoff units without any risk is not ok. + Show Spoiler +What are utalking about? Vipers are perfectly counterable by ghosts snipes or emp or HT with feedback. And even if u use ball of viper to mass abduct u will always lose some of them. But Mechh ball with 13 range Thors, buffed siegetank, ravens and hellbats for tanking damage will have no counter. And every time i read a whining mech player they always demand same thing- no counter for their army composition. I mean, isn't enough that mech is dominant on the ground? Their proposals don't even make room for other players to fight that. It's lije- once i leave my basr with army there should be nothing to stop that. Thats retarded indeed. To be honest I feel like mech is very strong against zerg in the current non test map state of things. However there are some issues with the vipers that aren't really about balance, but about design. And 13 range thor is stupid, 10 range is already really good against BLs. Mech "ultimate army" can defeat zerg's "ultimate army" right now. Queen/BL/corruptors/vipers is weaker than ranged liberators/thors/vikings/raven/hellbats. Which is fine, since zerg is supposed to have better gaz economy and repop capabilities. The issue mainly lies in zerg's mid game abilities to be active, and the fact that once vipers are out, mech is forced into "turtle until the maps runs out of ressources". Vipers are not broken, they're not overly powerful, they just force mech to never move out without turrets cover. The ability to pick of 6 supply 300/200 (or 400/300 if you're dumb enough to build BCs) units, combined with the extreme zoning ability of the parasitic bomb (which forces you to dissengage with your vikings, because chasing means clumping) makes mech total shit if you're not behind 20 turrets. In this sense, not much has changed since the last months of HOTS where mech was about depleating the map's ressources. The problematic thing is not about mass vipers. It's not really about counters either, since both the thor and the viking can force the vipers to trade if they want to pick off units, and the ghost, while very hard to use, allows mech players to prevent zergs from engaging too boldly. The fact mech sucks so bad against concaves and bad positionning, combined with the viper being the ultimate swiss knife against every single mech unit is problematic. It's not about balance, it's about the fact it forces mech to turtle, and that it denies any mid game for zergs. Because the viper fills so many roles that are not assumed by T2 zerg units, zergs have to rush hive against mech. A redistribution of strength and utility is needed to make zerg's T2 much better, instead of forcing them into rushing the unit that will armlock the game into a ressources turtle war. For instance, the infestor and the SH should be buffed to fill some of the viper's role (AA AoE, and high value targets snipe), in exchange for the removal of the parastic bomb and an necessary abduct nerf (can't grab massive units). It's not about balance, it's about redistributing zerg strength against mech throughout the tech tree to have dynamic T2 ZvMech instead of a campfest "straight into T3" while terran turtles forever and waits for the map to run out of ressources. Aren't BLs getting their range further nerfed still, or was that dropped? I totally agree with your point of the strong T3 weak T2 dynamic being unfavorable in ZvT. I really, really hate how the safest way to play and win is NR10 then once your ultras are out you can finally get offensive. Similar deal with mech. It's boring. It's not satisfying. It's stressful defending a ton of very potent timing attacks and harass, and if you fuck up the game is effectively over unless your opponent makes a horrible mistake. It's just not good gameplay and it's one of the reasons why my motivation is to play other games. Broodlords are getting their range nerfed from 11 to 10, yeah. No idea why, not like we ever see them now. What is your requirement for a unit to be "ever seen"? To be used commonly as Roach or Hydralisk? I'm watching mostly Protoss streams and I see Brood Lords very often in PvZ, from last WCS matches I clearly remember that Dark played Brood Lord/Corruptor in the first match against Stats on New Gettysburg but overmade Corruptors after wiping out air army Stats had and just died because of no gas
Broods are really good as a surprise. In a similar way to 8 BFH are good as a surprise, 4 DTs are good as a surprise, and mass carrier is good as a surprise.
If you know it's coming, they're completely fucking useless. You see them in PvZ because if a zerg makes the mistake of going late game vs protoss, they need broodlords to prevent outright dying. If the protoss responds wrong, or just had no idea the greater spire was even an option, they'll probably just lose.
They're complete shit to have around after the fact, unless you've already won.
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On November 04 2016 00:09 Probe1 wrote:Okay the two worst maps are gone.. but it's still a big freaking list of maps that weren't designed for LotV economy. What the heck. Show nested quote +On November 03 2016 06:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote:We haven’t received as much testing as we had hoped with the balance testing queue, but thankfully we do have the offseason to continue tuning and polishing these major changes on the live game before the ladder seasons begin next year.
an interesting red flag from DK. people have 2 choices... the current released version of the game or the more experimental version of the game. i guess people like the current version better. The only time this works is when you're adding new content. They aren't. They're tweaking the existing content. There only motivation for players is to bitch from a position of experience/authority. There is no reward. Unless the game was so wholly broken in current patch that it is flat out better to play experimental then there's no benefit for the players. Like many other modern concepts, Blizzard only understands early access from a fiscal point of view (Overwatch beta) and not from a development standpoint.
All other games' open testing I know of have some reward (however intangible it is). In WoW's PTR you get to face the boss and develop strategies first. In EVE online you get skill points for next testing (and not lose your assets to flybys). It shouldn't be hard for them to simply get an icon proclaiming this player participated enough in the testing. That at least entice the portrait farmers.
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i know they are old maps but my old age gets the better of me, have they been tried with legacy? i seem to remember having to box my workers?
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On November 04 2016 06:03 StatixEx wrote:
i know they are old maps but my old age gets the better of me, have they been tried with legacy? i seem to remember having to box my workers?
None of these maps were in LotV. Daybreak was in the game for the half of WoL and in HotS too, the rest was in Heart of the Swarm only.
Personally I'm not against older maps at all, if they don't work in their current state I'd be happy with versions adjusted for LotV, but having older classic maps like Lost/Shattered Temple or Metalopolis adjusted layout-wise to current SC2 is a little dream of mine.
I'm surprised they don't look into community maps more, but I'm happy that David said they're going to be more active with them in the next year (it's like 2-3 months I think). Sometimes I feel that they don't directly reach for community ideas/maps because they fear of community asking for something in exchange, some people are really touchy. Remember Galactic Process drama? Where they changed the rocks?
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20745746682
While I agree that in this case they could be in touch with the map creator to have discussion and work with him on the map and "be nice", they have final say what makes to the ladder or not after all, but fucking lol at this tweet.
And tell me how many complaints there are about the map in current state. By the way when I browse the thread it's scary that so many people are willing to theorycraft and say how bad the map is and other ridiculous things while it turned out to be fine with the changes. That's why Blizzard should be reserved with modifying the game and look for advice/suggestions among players above certain level, not among common folk which can be collectively misguided and just say stupid things
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On November 04 2016 07:09 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 06:03 StatixEx wrote:
i know they are old maps but my old age gets the better of me, have they been tried with legacy? i seem to remember having to box my workers? None of these maps were in LotV. Daybreak was in the game for the half of WoL and in HotS and the rest was in Heart of the Swarm only.
Echo was used during LotV beta. But too many things changed since then for Blizzard to draw any conclusions from that. Besides, I'm fairly confident Echo was put in pretty much exclusively because it was a strong mech map in HotS and they're trying to push mech.
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On November 04 2016 07:09 aQuaSC wrote:
Personally I'm not against older maps at all, if they don't work in their current state I'd be happy with versions adjusted for LotV, but having older classic maps like Lost/Shattered Temple or Metalopolis adjusted layout-wise to current SC2 is a little dream of mine.
I'm surprised they don't look into community maps more, but I'm happy that David said they're going to be more active with them in the next year (it's like 2-3 months I think).
you don't just adjust maps, shit just doesn't work that way.
with the extreme drought in the mapmaking scene it's amazing it isn't completely extinct by now.
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On November 04 2016 07:17 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 07:09 aQuaSC wrote:
Personally I'm not against older maps at all, if they don't work in their current state I'd be happy with versions adjusted for LotV, but having older classic maps like Lost/Shattered Temple or Metalopolis adjusted layout-wise to current SC2 is a little dream of mine.
I'm surprised they don't look into community maps more, but I'm happy that David said they're going to be more active with them in the next year (it's like 2-3 months I think). you don't just adjust maps, shit just doesn't work that way. with the extreme drought in the mapmaking scene it's amazing it isn't completely extinct by now.
Okay, I don't make maps so I was just guessing it could be done somehow. I never had modifying a map in mind, just a new map with similarities in general layouts/tilesets
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On November 04 2016 07:09 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 06:03 StatixEx wrote:
i know they are old maps but my old age gets the better of me, have they been tried with legacy? i seem to remember having to box my workers? None of these maps were in LotV. Daybreak was in the game for the half of WoL and in HotS too, the rest was in Heart of the Swarm only. Personally I'm not against older maps at all, if they don't work in their current state I'd be happy with versions adjusted for LotV, but having older classic maps like Lost/Shattered Temple or Metalopolis adjusted layout-wise to current SC2 is a little dream of mine. I'm surprised they don't look into community maps more, but I'm happy that David said they're going to be more active with them in the next year (it's like 2-3 months I think). Sometimes I feel that they don't directly reach for community ideas/maps because they fear of community asking for something in exchange, some people are really touchy. Remember Galactic Process drama? Where they changed the rocks? http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20745746682https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/750961538249453568While I agree that in this case they could be in touch with the map creator to have discussion and work with him on the map and "be nice", they have final say what makes to the ladder or not after all, but fucking lol at this tweet. And tell me how many complaints there are about the map in current state. By the way when I browse the thread it's scary that so many people are willing to theorycraft and say how bad the map is and other ridiculous things while it turned out to be fine with the changes. That's why Blizzard should be reserved with modifying the game and look for advice/suggestions among players above certain level, not among common folk which can be collectively misguided and just say stupid things
Even though I wasn't even active, I didn't even own LotV, I can clearly read that the creator is upset they edited the map without messaging him and involving him in the process.
It was not a case of nerd rage that they used a different doodad. It was changing the map, which his name and reputation was tied to, without even mentioning it to him. He's just a farm they get content from to sell in their game. Not worth discussing with.
That's insanely disrespectful and they treated the community exactly as they see it. Like a wallet.
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On November 04 2016 21:26 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 07:09 aQuaSC wrote:On November 04 2016 06:03 StatixEx wrote:
i know they are old maps but my old age gets the better of me, have they been tried with legacy? i seem to remember having to box my workers? None of these maps were in LotV. Daybreak was in the game for the half of WoL and in HotS too, the rest was in Heart of the Swarm only. Personally I'm not against older maps at all, if they don't work in their current state I'd be happy with versions adjusted for LotV, but having older classic maps like Lost/Shattered Temple or Metalopolis adjusted layout-wise to current SC2 is a little dream of mine. I'm surprised they don't look into community maps more, but I'm happy that David said they're going to be more active with them in the next year (it's like 2-3 months I think). Sometimes I feel that they don't directly reach for community ideas/maps because they fear of community asking for something in exchange, some people are really touchy. Remember Galactic Process drama? Where they changed the rocks? http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20745746682https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/750961538249453568While I agree that in this case they could be in touch with the map creator to have discussion and work with him on the map and "be nice", they have final say what makes to the ladder or not after all, but fucking lol at this tweet. And tell me how many complaints there are about the map in current state. By the way when I browse the thread it's scary that so many people are willing to theorycraft and say how bad the map is and other ridiculous things while it turned out to be fine with the changes. That's why Blizzard should be reserved with modifying the game and look for advice/suggestions among players above certain level, not among common folk which can be collectively misguided and just say stupid things Even though I wasn't even active, I didn't even own LotV, I can clearly read that the creator is upset they edited the map without messaging him and involving him in the process. It was not a case of nerd rage that they used a different doodad. It was changing the map, which his name and reputation was tied to, without even mentioning it to him. He's just a farm they get content from to sell in their game. Not worth discussing with. That's insanely disrespectful and they treated the community exactly as they see it. Like a wallet.
Exactly as they have it under terms of use. That doesn't make being out of touch any better though.
And saying that they treat the community as a "wallet" as you put it is unnecessary demonisation and making Blizzard a supreme evil of some sort. You can say the same thing about your employer. You're nothing but an expendable workforce to him (unless you are truly the best at something). Does it make him instantly bad?
What they did was insensitive and overall really poor but they have final say on what's going to the game or not. And as harsh and even stupid as it sounds, your time spent in the map editor is not making the map your property anyway (again terms of use).
I'm ommitting the entire outrage on how map was going to be completely unplayable after the changes, because it turned out to be fine and with that situation in mind it's possible that the map could be problematic without changes made to it, they always said that they are adjusting the maps to match some performance criteria as well, but if there was a reason to change some textures and other cosmetic stuff besides that they didn't like some of them we'll probably never know.
EDIT: as I see now that you probably weren't around during the drama and how it ended in the end (by getting silent since it was an overreaction), take a look on the comparison screenshots, where minor stuff was changed like position of minerals to be less abusable by Liberators, adding air space between main and third, outside of the natural and close to gold ramp to not make air harass completely unviable, some textures, these damned rocks that turned out to be fine in the end etc.
original map
current version on the ladder after the changes
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did they give a date during blizzcon to when the patch with all the units changes will go live?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/UnXs7pQ.jpg)
