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Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system. |
On October 18 2016 23:07 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 22:54 SkrollK wrote:On October 18 2016 22:15 KeksX wrote:On October 18 2016 22:12 Aocowns wrote:On October 18 2016 22:07 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:On October 18 2016 21:28 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:13 Aegwynn wrote:On October 18 2016 21:06 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 20:53 Hildegard wrote:
[quote]
I don't think imitating the Moba model is the right direction to go for today. Starcraft is unique as a game and I think the way to go in the long run is to promote that uniqueness instead of imitating. Increase the options even further with more micro potential but make the multiplayer game F2P or at least open up the option to play in Internet Cafes without having to buy the game.
I think marketing the game as the hardest game ever made would actually increase the playerbase. Spending 90% of your in-game time to fight PvE macro mechanics is really unique. And FUN! Let's promote this to 100%. First player who's production will be resting for more than 1 second instantly loses. The game should be as hard as your opponent makes it to you. Not workers-> pylons-> production-> workers-> production-> pylons-> expanding-> production -> pylons -> upgrades -> 4 second fight. I want to lose to my opponent who made me to lose with his micro and tactical moves. Not because he is building pylons better than me. I wanna lose because my opponent places pylons better than me. Not because his micro. Well, if you are below Diamon league, that is what Starcraft is about there. Go play it right now. But, as you can see, nobody likes it as much as you do. So, after some time, you will end up alone there. I am sorry i had to do that to show how idiotic your post was -Building placement is a part of strategy, if he places his buildings better than you that means he is the smarter player Ok. Redesign starcraft to become a buinding contest. You build your base and then judges give you points based on how smart you are. This will be FUN! On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Spending resources is the most crucial part of any rts game
Indeed. But what if we make it a little bit easier so we can focus more on our opponent. Not on PvE mechanics. I want to think HOW (on what) should I spent my resources. Not HOW FAST. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Macro mechanics were as heavy as this in BW as well, you probably didn't play that one because i see that you don't even know fundamentals of SC
I was a C- on Iccup right before WoL came out. And BW will never ever extend starcraft fun base. It will bring back the old-school guys but it is nothing compared to what MOBAs have. Wee need casual players here. Who don't want to have 300 apm to move their 12 dragoons up on a ramp. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-If you wanna only micro and position then RTS is not your genre
I want strategy to become crucial in RT S. Not merchanics. It's not an RTM. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-I am over diamond my dear don't worry, and i know what starcraft is about.
I've never assumed you skill level. Please accept my apologies if you thought so. If Starcraft is not fun to a below-diamond players (And it is not fun right now. It doesn't even look like Starcraft there.), it will never become a world-wide sport. there actually just seems to be a massive disconnect between you and what SC fans and competitors enjoy and want To be fair, there has always been this disconnect between StarCraft fans and "traditional RTS" fans. The argument of "PvE" is something I hear a lot when non-SC fans talk about SC. But I see very little point in discussing this. No RTS is in a really good shape right now in Korea. This shouldn't be a discussion about BW vs SC2 or SC2 vs other RTS. It should be about how RTS can survive between giants like League Of Legends and Overwatch. Btw - does anyone know what this means for SSL? I don’t see why people are masturbating so much on RTS genre. You know what guys ? It has never been THAT popular in the West. BW was fucking big in Korea, agreed. But not that much in the West. Always in the shadows of others (mainly FPS at that time), and shortly after MMOs. RTS has always been a niche, that’s all. It’s only returning to it’s rightful state. Yes, StarCraft sales were good. But how many just played campaign ? How many just never touched the 1on1 competitive side of it ? For how many people was it just about 3v3/4v4, UMS or FFA ? (snip) Look, I know what point you're trying to make. And I agree to some extent. But there's no need to lash out like that. We're not saying "SC2/BW should dominate everything!!". People are just afraid to see their favourite games gone for good. Korean StarCraft, if BW or SC2, has been part of our lives for a long time. Seeing it gone would be soul-crushing. But as I said, I completely agree that it shouldn't be at the expense of the people involved. If pro players and the ones behind them can't make a proper living, then it's better to "downsize" than to try and keep it up on life support. If there can be a solution that creates a healthy environment without life support, well then thats what we can hope for, right?
Yep.. Sorry if that sounded harsh, your way to put it was way better.
And to add to that, i'd just say that, you know, MOBAs popularity wont last for ever either.. Popularity, fashion, isn't it a perpetual renewal ?
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On October 18 2016 21:53 -IAEVAI-KolosS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 21:14 gTank wrote:
sh1RoKen is not 100% correct but also not 100% wrong.
There is not that deep strategic part in sc2 as it was in sc1. High ground doesnt give that much advantage, mostly it is only max army and fight into instant win/lose. Too many hard counters as well as well as abilities that were not fun to play against. This^. I have been meching as Terran everygame because I am nostalgic of broodwar. Now high ground doesn't do much for you and moving out before having maxed out army is suicidal with this playstyle. Overall, there are too many ways of destroying an entire mineral line in a few seconds for the game to be more about smaller engagements in my opinion. Let's do a quick list. Even unlikely scenarios included: Show nested quote +Protoss:
- Adepts (There's a specific place in gamers hell for this one)
- Oracles
- Dark Templars
- Distruptors
- Storm
Zerg
- Mutalisks
- Banelings
- Speedlings
Terran
-Mines
-Nukes I haven't played Broodwar in years, but I don't recall this instant kill all workers aspect to be as much present. Of course theses examples can all be defended and prepared for, but if you slip up, your economy is dead in 1 or 2 seconds. Slower gameplay overall and better unit design made this aspect of the game not as extreme in Broodwar and it is far TOO extreme in Starcraft 2 in my opinion. EDIT: Gave more substance to post. That list it missing the trifecta that started the "destroy workers metagame" back in WoL: Marine drops, Hellions and Banshees. In 2011, PvT was all about the Protoss turtling, trying to defend Terran drops until they had a deathball that could risk moving out. And ZvT was decided by the Zerg's ability to defend Hellion openings. (Conversely, when the Queen buff made T harassment less efficient, the matchup broke in Z's favor.) The Banshees could end games unless properly prepared for. And TvT early game until LotV was all about putting stuff in your opponent's mineral line, even if Vikings made it a bit easier to defend.
The community has always been Terran-favored. And Blizzard took notice. They saw that the race whose main winning strategy was "kill enemy worker lines until you win a war of attrition" was the most popular, so they decided to make the other races more like it. See: Oracles, Adepts, Muta regen, Warp Prism buff. For Terran, mines and speedvacs. Before LotV, Blizzard kept saying that "they want to make the game more exciting by enabling more worker harass".
However, this kind of metagame is extremely frustrating to beginners, since they can't scout and react fast enough to prevent their economy from being destroyed by a comparatively small investment. It's not that fun to watch either, and as you said, restricts tactical options. This is one of the main design faults in the game, and it was implemented right before our eyes.
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On October 18 2016 23:01 sh1RoKen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 22:36 Aocowns wrote:On October 18 2016 22:28 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 22:12 Aocowns wrote:On October 18 2016 22:07 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:On October 18 2016 21:28 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:13 Aegwynn wrote:On October 18 2016 21:06 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 20:53 Hildegard wrote:
[quote]
I don't think imitating the Moba model is the right direction to go for today. Starcraft is unique as a game and I think the way to go in the long run is to promote that uniqueness instead of imitating. Increase the options even further with more micro potential but make the multiplayer game F2P or at least open up the option to play in Internet Cafes without having to buy the game.
I think marketing the game as the hardest game ever made would actually increase the playerbase. Spending 90% of your in-game time to fight PvE macro mechanics is really unique. And FUN! Let's promote this to 100%. First player who's production will be resting for more than 1 second instantly loses. The game should be as hard as your opponent makes it to you. Not workers-> pylons-> production-> workers-> production-> pylons-> expanding-> production -> pylons -> upgrades -> 4 second fight. I want to lose to my opponent who made me to lose with his micro and tactical moves. Not because he is building pylons better than me. I wanna lose because my opponent places pylons better than me. Not because his micro. Well, if you are below Diamon league, that is what Starcraft is about there. Go play it right now. But, as you can see, nobody likes it as much as you do. So, after some time, you will end up alone there. I am sorry i had to do that to show how idiotic your post was -Building placement is a part of strategy, if he places his buildings better than you that means he is the smarter player Ok. Redesign starcraft to become a buinding contest. You build your base and then judges give you points based on how smart you are. This will be FUN! On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Spending resources is the most crucial part of any rts game
Indeed. But what if we make it a little bit easier so we can focus more on our opponent. Not on PvE mechanics. I want to think HOW (on what) should I spent my resources. Not HOW FAST. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Macro mechanics were as heavy as this in BW as well, you probably didn't play that one because i see that you don't even know fundamentals of SC
I was a C- on Iccup right before WoL came out. And BW will never ever extend starcraft fun base. It will bring back the old-school guys but it is nothing compared to what MOBAs have. Wee need casual players here. Who don't want to have 300 apm to move their 12 dragoons up on a ramp. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-If you wanna only micro and position then RTS is not your genre
I want strategy to become crucial in RT S. Not merchanics. It's not an RTM. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-I am over diamond my dear don't worry, and i know what starcraft is about.
I've never assumed you skill level. Please accept my apologies if you thought so. If Starcraft is not fun to a below-diamond players (And it is not fun right now. It doesn't even look like Starcraft there.), it will never become a world-wide sport. there actually just seems to be a massive disconnect between you and what SC fans and competitors enjoy and want If you enjoy it, play it. I would never try convince anyone to stop playing the game they like. But, as you can see, the game you enjoy has no future on a competitive world-wide cypersport scene due to the lack of the casual fun base. If you are OK with esportless Starcraft, I have nothing to say to you. Just play this game and I wish you nothing but gl hf. But, to survive this battle for esport viewers, Starcraft needs some serious redesign to make it more fun to casual low-level players. That is all what I am trying to say. And that is what I've said 2 years ago. SC can never maintain its unique identity while still appealing to the massive audiences, RTS just isnt a popular genre anymore. If you think that the unique identity of Starcraft is "extremely hard mechanical building competition", than you are totally right. In that case BW HD is the key to everything. But I don't think so. For me - Starcraft is about killing lurker with 2 marines. For me its about emp vs feedback. I think this is the unique beauty of the game I love. And IMO, we can totally have this beauty without a necessity to lose a game when you supply-blocked yourself.
The beauty of the game for me is being able to do these micro-tricks, AND at the same time continue to grow your economy, spread yourself on the map and execute your gameplan. I really don't care that much about single-focused moba-like micro battles, but what is beautiful is doing it all in "Real Time". I also think that the ideal RTS would appeal to a lot of people, it's not like it's a genre doomed to fail from the start.
For me the missing part in Starcraft 2 isn't that mechanics are overwheming. It's that it just isn't that Strategic in the end. Making the game easier mechanically wouldn't change that, it still would be pretty shallow as far as strategy is concerned.
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On October 18 2016 22:59 MyTHicaL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 22:54 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On October 18 2016 22:46 BreAKerTV wrote:
AWFUL decision making by Blizzard.
Very well said. Do you guys think Mike Morhaime is feeling remorseful with a yearly salary that is nearly 10 million USD? This is information you guys can Google search. It just feels like Blizzard is only looking to make themselves money. Breaking news ! A publicly traded, for-profit company is for profit ! Incredible ! Huge if true ! I'm not gonna defend Blizzard for all the mistakes they've made, but running on a capitalist model of maximizing shareholder value and sales in order to offset development costs, just like EVERY other game company out there, is not one of them. This has been is one of the scene's core issues : by whining about everything we dilute the impact of otherwise legit messages. I sincerely doubt that they maximise shareholder value; please confer the agency theory. Also take into consideration the many other demographics of stakeholders. I think its' an error (if nothing else) business wise. Whether or not it maximised profits; having sc2 dominate as the competitive RTS has indirect positive effects that are difficult to measure. Regardless, it's just a shame.
This was precisely a throwback to agency theory - I think we both agree referring to it is what a company should do. Blizzard's subsidies have shown they're not necessarily prone to short-termism and willing to subsidize a brand to buy market share, which is a good thing. As per other execution decisions, of course some were very flawed and that is what we should be discussing, I agree with you - my point is ad hominems to Morhaime or others have no place, and will do little to advance the debate at this point anyway.
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On October 18 2016 23:01 sh1RoKen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 22:36 Aocowns wrote:On October 18 2016 22:28 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 22:12 Aocowns wrote:On October 18 2016 22:07 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:On October 18 2016 21:28 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:13 Aegwynn wrote:On October 18 2016 21:06 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 20:53 Hildegard wrote:
[quote]
I don't think imitating the Moba model is the right direction to go for today. Starcraft is unique as a game and I think the way to go in the long run is to promote that uniqueness instead of imitating. Increase the options even further with more micro potential but make the multiplayer game F2P or at least open up the option to play in Internet Cafes without having to buy the game.
I think marketing the game as the hardest game ever made would actually increase the playerbase. Spending 90% of your in-game time to fight PvE macro mechanics is really unique. And FUN! Let's promote this to 100%. First player who's production will be resting for more than 1 second instantly loses. The game should be as hard as your opponent makes it to you. Not workers-> pylons-> production-> workers-> production-> pylons-> expanding-> production -> pylons -> upgrades -> 4 second fight. I want to lose to my opponent who made me to lose with his micro and tactical moves. Not because he is building pylons better than me. I wanna lose because my opponent places pylons better than me. Not because his micro. Well, if you are below Diamon league, that is what Starcraft is about there. Go play it right now. But, as you can see, nobody likes it as much as you do. So, after some time, you will end up alone there. I am sorry i had to do that to show how idiotic your post was -Building placement is a part of strategy, if he places his buildings better than you that means he is the smarter player Ok. Redesign starcraft to become a buinding contest. You build your base and then judges give you points based on how smart you are. This will be FUN! On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Spending resources is the most crucial part of any rts game
Indeed. But what if we make it a little bit easier so we can focus more on our opponent. Not on PvE mechanics. I want to think HOW (on what) should I spent my resources. Not HOW FAST. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Macro mechanics were as heavy as this in BW as well, you probably didn't play that one because i see that you don't even know fundamentals of SC
I was a C- on Iccup right before WoL came out. And BW will never ever extend starcraft fun base. It will bring back the old-school guys but it is nothing compared to what MOBAs have. Wee need casual players here. Who don't want to have 300 apm to move their 12 dragoons up on a ramp. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-If you wanna only micro and position then RTS is not your genre
I want strategy to become crucial in RT S. Not merchanics. It's not an RTM. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-I am over diamond my dear don't worry, and i know what starcraft is about.
I've never assumed you skill level. Please accept my apologies if you thought so. If Starcraft is not fun to a below-diamond players (And it is not fun right now. It doesn't even look like Starcraft there.), it will never become a world-wide sport. there actually just seems to be a massive disconnect between you and what SC fans and competitors enjoy and want If you enjoy it, play it. I would never try convince anyone to stop playing the game they like. But, as you can see, the game you enjoy has no future on a competitive world-wide cypersport scene due to the lack of the casual fun base. If you are OK with esportless Starcraft, I have nothing to say to you. Just play this game and I wish you nothing but gl hf. But, to survive this battle for esport viewers, Starcraft needs some serious redesign to make it more fun to casual low-level players. That is all what I am trying to say. And that is what I've said 2 years ago. SC can never maintain its unique identity while still appealing to the massive audiences, RTS just isnt a popular genre anymore. If you think that the unique identity of Starcraft is "extremely hard mechanical building competition", than you are totally right. In that case BW HD is the key to everything. But I don't think so. For me - Starcraft is about killing lurker with 2 marines. For me its about emp vs feedback. I think this is the unique beauty of the game I love. And IMO, we can totally have this beauty without a necessity to lose a game when you supply-blocked yourself.
dude thats not at all unique, you're just listing cool unit interactions that can be present in any top-down game with control of several units or characters
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On October 18 2016 23:13 BreAKerTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 22:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 18 2016 22:46 BreAKerTV wrote:On October 18 2016 22:36 RealityIsKing wrote:On October 18 2016 22:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 18 2016 22:15 KeksX wrote:
It should be about how RTS can survive between giants like League Of Legends and Overwatch.
RTS will "survive"... it will continue its decline. the state of technology gives consumers choices that make RTS a narrow niche. the precise state of technology from 1994 to ~2002 made RTS a mainstream genre. technology got better giving mainstream players more choices and that mainstream moved on to MOBAs, TF2, Overwatch, etc. what is going on is bad for people who are trying to make money off of SC2. For people who fire up the client and play Co-Op, Competitive multiplayer and 3player versus 3 AI games this has little impact. On October 18 2016 22:23 Thax wrote:
If you're looking for people to blame for this, blame Life and his cohorts. That matchfixing scandal was toxic for the attraction of sponsors. the state of technology gave mainstream consumers more choices. RTS got choiced out of the market with more team oriented games. the mainstream market found low latency 10 player games more and more viable the last 20 years. Every year internet connectivity gets better making team games more and more viable. Life was looking for 1 last big payday in a declining scene. To be honest BW was doing fine on OGN with PL studio being filled and viewership constantly in the millions. Its entirely Blizzard's fault for not appealing to the millions of BW fans. Instead Blizzard want to appease the "western fans", which viewership at its height was only in the 500K. AWFUL decision making by Blizzard. Very well said. Do you guys think Mike Morhaime is feeling remorseful with a yearly salary that is nearly 10 million USD? This is information you guys can Google search. It just feels like Blizzard is only looking to make themselves money. They charge tournament organizers for broadcasting licenses without a tear to be shed, I know 20 people that lost their jobs in 2015 as a direct result of Blizzard's new policies. Please don't bash Mike Morhaime... his passion for Starcraft is huge and perhaps one of the reasons Blizzard is still putting large amounts of money into SC2. Do you think he regularly goes to watch Starcraft in Korea because he's a money grabber? Um, well, yes. Blizzard now charges tournament organizers tens of thousands of dollars for what is, effectively speaking, free advertising of their game as a platform of competition. I don't care how nicely they ask tournament organizers this question, I personally find it is a disgusting prerogative to charge fees that could be equal to 1 month's labor fees for 15 staff (at a conservative rate). I personally want Blizzard to stop using the term "e-Sports" to advertise their games if they are going to charge tournament organizers for licenses when they can already make money from micro-transactions. Spalding isn't going to charge ESPN for using a basketball of their brand in a college ball game.
Exactly. Imo, company "property" should never go further than like, checking every computer that runs the game in a publicly broadcast competition has a copy of the game bought for it or something... it doesn't even need to do that! definitely don't require people to have a separate account key tied to a freaking server... and then declare all user content property of the company.. lol what people make with the game is up to them they are free to do it and then free to show it or whatever with it, its theirs, replays, maps, matches, tourneys.. lan/offline modes, etc, what has been lost to this greed and I wish we recover
note: I have nothing against company organizing tourneys themselves, however preventing others from running tourneys for free is theft and an attack on community
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On October 18 2016 23:17 SkrollK wrote:
(snip because holy moly so many quotes)
Yep.. Sorry if that sounded harsh, your way to put it was way better.
And to add to that, i'd just say that, you know, MOBAs popularity wont last for ever either.. Popularity, fashion, isn't it a perpetual renewal ?
If you consider the fact that BW has been going on for 12+ years now, and StarCraft II faces these issues just 6 years after a release, it's a worrying trend indeed.
On October 18 2016 23:20 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 23:13 BreAKerTV wrote:On October 18 2016 22:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 18 2016 22:46 BreAKerTV wrote:On October 18 2016 22:36 RealityIsKing wrote:On October 18 2016 22:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 18 2016 22:15 KeksX wrote:
It should be about how RTS can survive between giants like League Of Legends and Overwatch.
RTS will "survive"... it will continue its decline. the state of technology gives consumers choices that make RTS a narrow niche. the precise state of technology from 1994 to ~2002 made RTS a mainstream genre. technology got better giving mainstream players more choices and that mainstream moved on to MOBAs, TF2, Overwatch, etc. what is going on is bad for people who are trying to make money off of SC2. For people who fire up the client and play Co-Op, Competitive multiplayer and 3player versus 3 AI games this has little impact. On October 18 2016 22:23 Thax wrote:
If you're looking for people to blame for this, blame Life and his cohorts. That matchfixing scandal was toxic for the attraction of sponsors. the state of technology gave mainstream consumers more choices. RTS got choiced out of the market with more team oriented games. the mainstream market found low latency 10 player games more and more viable the last 20 years. Every year internet connectivity gets better making team games more and more viable. Life was looking for 1 last big payday in a declining scene. To be honest BW was doing fine on OGN with PL studio being filled and viewership constantly in the millions. Its entirely Blizzard's fault for not appealing to the millions of BW fans. Instead Blizzard want to appease the "western fans", which viewership at its height was only in the 500K. AWFUL decision making by Blizzard. Very well said. Do you guys think Mike Morhaime is feeling remorseful with a yearly salary that is nearly 10 million USD? This is information you guys can Google search. It just feels like Blizzard is only looking to make themselves money. They charge tournament organizers for broadcasting licenses without a tear to be shed, I know 20 people that lost their jobs in 2015 as a direct result of Blizzard's new policies. Please don't bash Mike Morhaime... his passion for Starcraft is huge and perhaps one of the reasons Blizzard is still putting large amounts of money into SC2. Do you think he regularly goes to watch Starcraft in Korea because he's a money grabber? Um, well, yes. Blizzard now charges tournament organizers tens of thousands of dollars for what is, effectively speaking, free advertising of their game as a platform of competition. I don't care how nicely they ask tournament organizers this question, I personally find it is a disgusting prerogative to charge fees that could be equal to 1 month's labor fees for 15 staff (at a conservative rate). I personally want Blizzard to stop using the term "e-Sports" to advertise their games if they are going to charge tournament organizers for licenses when they can already make money from micro-transactions. Spalding isn't going to charge ESPN for using a basketball of their brand in a college ball game. Exactly. Imo, company "property" should never go further than like, checking every computer that runs the game in a publicly broadcast competition has a copy of the game bought for it or something... it doesn't even need to do that! definitely don't require people to have a separate account key tied to a freaking server... and then declare all user content property of the company.. lol what people make with the game is up to them they are free to do it and then free to show it or whatever with it, its theirs, replays, maps, matches, tourneys.. lan/offline modes, etc, what has been lost to this greed and I wish we recover
You guys miss the fact that broadcasting rights for "real sports" are insanely expensive, too. To such an extent that small-scale broadcasters simply can't get them.
And looking at other eSports titles out there, some companies don't do it better. Blizzard, FWIW, has been quite tolerant with small-scale broadcasters and injected a ton of money into the scene outside of their own tournaments (GSL).
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This is some of the worst news i ever had , sc2 was the mother of esports , this is extremly sad not only to see all these teams and players gone, but the end of profesional RTS... , really sad to see the new generation just never liked it , i remember the days when i used to buy a new RTS like every week....
All these players and teams felt like a family after all this years.. this really makes me believe Esports will probably have this same fate.. companies will move on with the next popular game every 5 or 10 years ruining all these kids "carriers", how can people take any other esport seriously when you see the mother of all die in silence and abandoned like this..... CSGO and even LoL will die too in the next 10years its sad to see people abandon things easily from a year to another , just jump in the new fresh wagon trend, hype it to the Sky then abandon it like if it never happened.
If i was involved in anything related to esports i would be terrified as caster analyst journalist or whatever , you never know the next day you can end up casting a game like hearthstone or hots.. which is sad while RTS die , sad to see how fans gave up on the genre as well as new generations, i guess we all knew it wasnt going to last , but i really never expected the RTS genre to die completly i always thought it would stand like another "sport" with huge history and legacies with maybe new games taking over but this seems like the very end for sure , thanks a lot to TEAM LIQUID for all the work this years.. but unfortunately i have no reason to check this website anymore  , WCS is a joke compared to what the escene was.. specially knowing the competitive scene is dead.. why would anyone try to get good and be competitive anymore... also sad to see blizzard not protecting the scene at all , whats the point having WCS global , if there isnt a real competitive scene anymore or sponsors lol... why would someone ruin the entire life knowing there is no support to it?
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soO not retiring and we get soO stream :D!!!
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On October 18 2016 23:17 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 23:01 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 22:36 Aocowns wrote:On October 18 2016 22:28 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 22:12 Aocowns wrote:On October 18 2016 22:07 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:On October 18 2016 21:28 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:13 Aegwynn wrote:On October 18 2016 21:06 sh1RoKen wrote:
[quote]
Spending 90% of your in-game time to fight PvE macro mechanics is really unique. And FUN! Let's promote this to 100%. First player who's production will be resting for more than 1 second instantly loses.
The game should be as hard as your opponent makes it to you. Not workers-> pylons-> production-> workers-> production-> pylons-> expanding-> production -> pylons -> upgrades -> 4 second fight. I want to lose to my opponent who made me to lose with his micro and tactical moves. Not because he is building pylons better than me.
I wanna lose because my opponent places pylons better than me. Not because his micro. Well, if you are below Diamon league, that is what Starcraft is about there. Go play it right now. But, as you can see, nobody likes it as much as you do. So, after some time, you will end up alone there. I am sorry i had to do that to show how idiotic your post was -Building placement is a part of strategy, if he places his buildings better than you that means he is the smarter player Ok. Redesign starcraft to become a buinding contest. You build your base and then judges give you points based on how smart you are. This will be FUN! On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Spending resources is the most crucial part of any rts game
Indeed. But what if we make it a little bit easier so we can focus more on our opponent. Not on PvE mechanics. I want to think HOW (on what) should I spent my resources. Not HOW FAST. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Macro mechanics were as heavy as this in BW as well, you probably didn't play that one because i see that you don't even know fundamentals of SC
I was a C- on Iccup right before WoL came out. And BW will never ever extend starcraft fun base. It will bring back the old-school guys but it is nothing compared to what MOBAs have. Wee need casual players here. Who don't want to have 300 apm to move their 12 dragoons up on a ramp. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-If you wanna only micro and position then RTS is not your genre
I want strategy to become crucial in RT S. Not merchanics. It's not an RTM. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-I am over diamond my dear don't worry, and i know what starcraft is about.
I've never assumed you skill level. Please accept my apologies if you thought so. If Starcraft is not fun to a below-diamond players (And it is not fun right now. It doesn't even look like Starcraft there.), it will never become a world-wide sport. there actually just seems to be a massive disconnect between you and what SC fans and competitors enjoy and want If you enjoy it, play it. I would never try convince anyone to stop playing the game they like. But, as you can see, the game you enjoy has no future on a competitive world-wide cypersport scene due to the lack of the casual fun base. If you are OK with esportless Starcraft, I have nothing to say to you. Just play this game and I wish you nothing but gl hf. But, to survive this battle for esport viewers, Starcraft needs some serious redesign to make it more fun to casual low-level players. That is all what I am trying to say. And that is what I've said 2 years ago. SC can never maintain its unique identity while still appealing to the massive audiences, RTS just isnt a popular genre anymore. If you think that the unique identity of Starcraft is "extremely hard mechanical building competition", than you are totally right. In that case BW HD is the key to everything. But I don't think so. For me - Starcraft is about killing lurker with 2 marines. For me its about emp vs feedback. I think this is the unique beauty of the game I love. And IMO, we can totally have this beauty without a necessity to lose a game when you supply-blocked yourself. The beauty of the game for me is being able to do these micro-tricks, AND at the same time continue to grow your economy, spread yourself on the map and execute your gameplan. I really don't care that much about single-focused moba-like micro battles, but what is beautiful is doing it all in " Real Time". For me the missing part in Starcraft 2 isn't that mechanics are overwheming. It's that it just isn't that Strategic in the end. Making the game easier mechanically wouldn't change that, it still would be pretty shallow as far as strategy is concerned.
I'm not really up to par with my BW history so someone more knowledgeable should correct me if im wrong, but isnt one of the big reasons BW is considered more "strategical" simply because the execution of said strategies was a lot more difficult and technical? like the big strategy of mech wasnt just to position your tanks in good locations, which is something everyone can do, but to do that while doing everything else and having the knowledge and experience to prioritise actions in real time in a situation where not everything can be done
I still hold firm that one of the pinnacles of "strategical and tactical" SC2 was ling/bane/muta vs bio/mine which, incidentally, was also the most mechanically demanding and high pace match up.
either way, terms such as strategy are being thrown around really loosely and undefined, everyone would probably be better off deleting it from their vocabulary and being specific instead
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Oh I remember now. Back in 2014 soO wanted to stream but SKT wouldn't let him. Good to see that he's willing to wait to see what next year has in store before committing to anything.
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On October 18 2016 23:20 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 23:13 BreAKerTV wrote:On October 18 2016 22:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 18 2016 22:46 BreAKerTV wrote:On October 18 2016 22:36 RealityIsKing wrote:On October 18 2016 22:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 18 2016 22:15 KeksX wrote:
It should be about how RTS can survive between giants like League Of Legends and Overwatch.
RTS will "survive"... it will continue its decline. the state of technology gives consumers choices that make RTS a narrow niche. the precise state of technology from 1994 to ~2002 made RTS a mainstream genre. technology got better giving mainstream players more choices and that mainstream moved on to MOBAs, TF2, Overwatch, etc. what is going on is bad for people who are trying to make money off of SC2. For people who fire up the client and play Co-Op, Competitive multiplayer and 3player versus 3 AI games this has little impact. On October 18 2016 22:23 Thax wrote:
If you're looking for people to blame for this, blame Life and his cohorts. That matchfixing scandal was toxic for the attraction of sponsors. the state of technology gave mainstream consumers more choices. RTS got choiced out of the market with more team oriented games. the mainstream market found low latency 10 player games more and more viable the last 20 years. Every year internet connectivity gets better making team games more and more viable. Life was looking for 1 last big payday in a declining scene. To be honest BW was doing fine on OGN with PL studio being filled and viewership constantly in the millions. Its entirely Blizzard's fault for not appealing to the millions of BW fans. Instead Blizzard want to appease the "western fans", which viewership at its height was only in the 500K. AWFUL decision making by Blizzard. Very well said. Do you guys think Mike Morhaime is feeling remorseful with a yearly salary that is nearly 10 million USD? This is information you guys can Google search. It just feels like Blizzard is only looking to make themselves money. They charge tournament organizers for broadcasting licenses without a tear to be shed, I know 20 people that lost their jobs in 2015 as a direct result of Blizzard's new policies. Please don't bash Mike Morhaime... his passion for Starcraft is huge and perhaps one of the reasons Blizzard is still putting large amounts of money into SC2. Do you think he regularly goes to watch Starcraft in Korea because he's a money grabber? Um, well, yes. Blizzard now charges tournament organizers tens of thousands of dollars for what is, effectively speaking, free advertising of their game as a platform of competition. I don't care how nicely they ask tournament organizers this question, I personally find it is a disgusting prerogative to charge fees that could be equal to 1 month's labor fees for 15 staff (at a conservative rate). I personally want Blizzard to stop using the term "e-Sports" to advertise their games if they are going to charge tournament organizers for licenses when they can already make money from micro-transactions. Spalding isn't going to charge ESPN for using a basketball of their brand in a college ball game. Exactly. Imo, company "property" should never go further than like, checking every computer that runs the game in a publicly broadcast competition has a copy of the game bought for it or something... it doesn't even need to do that! definitely don't require people to have a separate account key tied to a freaking server... and then declare all user content property of the company.. lol what people make with the game is up to them they are free to do it and then free to show it or whatever with it, its theirs, replays, maps, matches, tourneys.. lan/offline modes, etc, what has been lost to this greed and I wish we recover note: I have nothing against company organizing tourneys themselves, however preventing others from running tourneys for free is theft and an attack on community
Tell that to FIFA.
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On October 18 2016 23:33 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 23:20 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 18 2016 23:13 BreAKerTV wrote:On October 18 2016 22:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 18 2016 22:46 BreAKerTV wrote:On October 18 2016 22:36 RealityIsKing wrote:On October 18 2016 22:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 18 2016 22:15 KeksX wrote:
It should be about how RTS can survive between giants like League Of Legends and Overwatch.
RTS will "survive"... it will continue its decline. the state of technology gives consumers choices that make RTS a narrow niche. the precise state of technology from 1994 to ~2002 made RTS a mainstream genre. technology got better giving mainstream players more choices and that mainstream moved on to MOBAs, TF2, Overwatch, etc. what is going on is bad for people who are trying to make money off of SC2. For people who fire up the client and play Co-Op, Competitive multiplayer and 3player versus 3 AI games this has little impact. On October 18 2016 22:23 Thax wrote:
If you're looking for people to blame for this, blame Life and his cohorts. That matchfixing scandal was toxic for the attraction of sponsors. the state of technology gave mainstream consumers more choices. RTS got choiced out of the market with more team oriented games. the mainstream market found low latency 10 player games more and more viable the last 20 years. Every year internet connectivity gets better making team games more and more viable. Life was looking for 1 last big payday in a declining scene. To be honest BW was doing fine on OGN with PL studio being filled and viewership constantly in the millions. Its entirely Blizzard's fault for not appealing to the millions of BW fans. Instead Blizzard want to appease the "western fans", which viewership at its height was only in the 500K. AWFUL decision making by Blizzard. Very well said. Do you guys think Mike Morhaime is feeling remorseful with a yearly salary that is nearly 10 million USD? This is information you guys can Google search. It just feels like Blizzard is only looking to make themselves money. They charge tournament organizers for broadcasting licenses without a tear to be shed, I know 20 people that lost their jobs in 2015 as a direct result of Blizzard's new policies. Please don't bash Mike Morhaime... his passion for Starcraft is huge and perhaps one of the reasons Blizzard is still putting large amounts of money into SC2. Do you think he regularly goes to watch Starcraft in Korea because he's a money grabber? Um, well, yes. Blizzard now charges tournament organizers tens of thousands of dollars for what is, effectively speaking, free advertising of their game as a platform of competition. I don't care how nicely they ask tournament organizers this question, I personally find it is a disgusting prerogative to charge fees that could be equal to 1 month's labor fees for 15 staff (at a conservative rate). I personally want Blizzard to stop using the term "e-Sports" to advertise their games if they are going to charge tournament organizers for licenses when they can already make money from micro-transactions. Spalding isn't going to charge ESPN for using a basketball of their brand in a college ball game. Exactly. Imo, company "property" should never go further than like, checking every computer that runs the game in a publicly broadcast competition has a copy of the game bought for it or something... it doesn't even need to do that! definitely don't require people to have a separate account key tied to a freaking server... and then declare all user content property of the company.. lol what people make with the game is up to them they are free to do it and then free to show it or whatever with it, its theirs, replays, maps, matches, tourneys.. lan/offline modes, etc, what has been lost to this greed and I wish we recover note: I have nothing against company organizing tourneys themselves, however preventing others from running tourneys for free is theft and an attack on community Tell that to FIFA.
Since when does FIFA own the "rights" to football? I can go and make a football tourney any time I want.
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On October 18 2016 23:28 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 23:17 ZenithM wrote:On October 18 2016 23:01 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 22:36 Aocowns wrote:On October 18 2016 22:28 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 22:12 Aocowns wrote:On October 18 2016 22:07 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:On October 18 2016 21:28 sh1RoKen wrote:On October 18 2016 21:13 Aegwynn wrote:
[quote]
I wanna lose because my opponent places pylons better than me. Not because his micro. Well, if you are below Diamon league, that is what Starcraft is about there. Go play it right now. But, as you can see, nobody likes it as much as you do. So, after some time, you will end up alone there. I am sorry i had to do that to show how idiotic your post was -Building placement is a part of strategy, if he places his buildings better than you that means he is the smarter player Ok. Redesign starcraft to become a buinding contest. You build your base and then judges give you points based on how smart you are. This will be FUN! On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Spending resources is the most crucial part of any rts game
Indeed. But what if we make it a little bit easier so we can focus more on our opponent. Not on PvE mechanics. I want to think HOW (on what) should I spent my resources. Not HOW FAST. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-Macro mechanics were as heavy as this in BW as well, you probably didn't play that one because i see that you don't even know fundamentals of SC
I was a C- on Iccup right before WoL came out. And BW will never ever extend starcraft fun base. It will bring back the old-school guys but it is nothing compared to what MOBAs have. Wee need casual players here. Who don't want to have 300 apm to move their 12 dragoons up on a ramp. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-If you wanna only micro and position then RTS is not your genre
I want strategy to become crucial in RT S. Not merchanics. It's not an RTM. On October 18 2016 21:40 Aegwynn wrote:
-I am over diamond my dear don't worry, and i know what starcraft is about.
I've never assumed you skill level. Please accept my apologies if you thought so. If Starcraft is not fun to a below-diamond players (And it is not fun right now. It doesn't even look like Starcraft there.), it will never become a world-wide sport. there actually just seems to be a massive disconnect between you and what SC fans and competitors enjoy and want If you enjoy it, play it. I would never try convince anyone to stop playing the game they like. But, as you can see, the game you enjoy has no future on a competitive world-wide cypersport scene due to the lack of the casual fun base. If you are OK with esportless Starcraft, I have nothing to say to you. Just play this game and I wish you nothing but gl hf. But, to survive this battle for esport viewers, Starcraft needs some serious redesign to make it more fun to casual low-level players. That is all what I am trying to say. And that is what I've said 2 years ago. SC can never maintain its unique identity while still appealing to the massive audiences, RTS just isnt a popular genre anymore. If you think that the unique identity of Starcraft is "extremely hard mechanical building competition", than you are totally right. In that case BW HD is the key to everything. But I don't think so. For me - Starcraft is about killing lurker with 2 marines. For me its about emp vs feedback. I think this is the unique beauty of the game I love. And IMO, we can totally have this beauty without a necessity to lose a game when you supply-blocked yourself. The beauty of the game for me is being able to do these micro-tricks, AND at the same time continue to grow your economy, spread yourself on the map and execute your gameplan. I really don't care that much about single-focused moba-like micro battles, but what is beautiful is doing it all in " Real Time". For me the missing part in Starcraft 2 isn't that mechanics are overwheming. It's that it just isn't that Strategic in the end. Making the game easier mechanically wouldn't change that, it still would be pretty shallow as far as strategy is concerned. I'm not really up to par with my BW history so someone more knowledgeable should correct me if im wrong, but isnt one of the big reasons BW is considered more "strategical" simply because the execution of said strategies was a lot more difficult and technical? like the big strategy of mech wasnt just to position your tanks in good locations, which is something everyone can do, but to do that while doing everything else and having the knowledge and experience to prioritise actions in real time in a situation where not everything can be done I still hold firm that one of the pinnacles of "strategical and tactical" SC2 was ling/bane/muta vs bio/mine which, incidentally, was also the most mechanically demanding and high pace match up. either way, terms such as strategy are being thrown around really loosely and undefined, everyone would probably be better off deleting it from their vocabulary and being specific instead
If I answer in few words, why BW is considered more strategical (and is) is because games build themselves up into more depth with many parameters on large scale and long term. Strategy is about this, building things up over time into complex shapes and evolving it into a win, but if tactics break it all the time with high volatility, "random" overkills, less large scale in space cause of deathballs, rigidity in the meta because of design (so that you tend to just execute all the time almost same thing), that makes less strategy. (shorter term > long term ; small scale > large scale ; less parameters in focus and options ; less strategy) BW has much more quality than SC2 in this regard though SC2 is still imo much better than a MOBA for strategy. So it's not exactly about mechanics but it's true that if there are a lot of (strategic) details to deal with that may also be more demanding mechanically.
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I'll never get why some people decide what to play / watch based on the popularity of the game. LoL is played by WAY more people than any other game out there (probably a good portion of them combined) and I can't stand playing or watching it. I simply don't care, but I'm happy for the people who do enjoy it - it does not affect me whatsoever. As long as there's a healthy player base in SC / SC2 I'm fine (and a buttload of people still play the game, it's super healthy). Would I want SC2 to be the biggest e-sport ever? Sure, more fun for me. Does it affect me if it's not topping all the charts (but still doing good)? No.
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As far as I'm concerned, I'm fine with "strategy" being defined as any long-term planning you do in the game. It can be the build you're using on given maps, but preferably I'm talking more about reacting to what your opponent is doing, and having a plan for the next 5+ minutes. Seems to me that anything you do in SC2 is reacting on a much smaller time-frame.
BW was such that movement on the map was way harder (pathfinding, collisions, limited control groups), so if you had to move your army you had to think twice about it. This already led to more strategy. It led to people taking expands far away not just as a "cheese" tactic (in SC2 you're mostly hoping your opponent doesn't scout it). Then on the other side, to attack that expand, you needed to plan ahead, open new tech paths or stretching yourself in a particular direction.
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I would like to thank all the loving casters these years. Of course you will have the online cups every week but its not the same. I really liked the serious format of SC2 of the proleague.
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On October 18 2016 23:32 Elentos wrote:Oh I remember now. Back in 2014 soO wanted to stream but SKT wouldn't let him. Good to see that he's willing to wait to see what next year has in store before committing to anything.
Honestly that was one aspect I never liked of Kespa and the bit that gives a little bit of hope for the future of Korean SC2. Small tournaments were never allowed to grow because Kespa had a strangle hold on player appearances. People are jammering on about Blizzard throttling tournament organizers, but in Korea it's Kespa who has the last word on that front.
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Holy fuck, I knew it was coming but it hit really hard. This is really RIP! This is end.
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South Korea2105 Posts
What about SpoTV's plans to continue SSL?
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EPT
