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On October 04 2016 07:14 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2016 00:28 Creager wrote:
Believe it or not but SC2 most likely will not get "another chance", that ship has sailed with LotV release. The core game is six years old, there's no upcoming expansion underway I wouldn't completely count out the possibility for another expansion. WoW keeps getting expansions, D3 will continue with another expansion soon. I wouldn't find it too absurd if we got a SC2 prequel expansion, but it would only be worthwhile if it completely redesigned the game.
That'd be awesome, but I can't imagine Blizz (or any major game developers, really) thinking that making more RTS is worth their while.
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You are all way overthinking this. Tell me something. Can anyone really name any other RTS out there that was made in the last 5 years or so that is even remotely in the same universe as SC2 in terms of popularity? I cant and there is a reason why no companies are making RTS games anymore. It is simply because no one really plays them anymore in terms of the general gaming population. Even if Blizzard had done everything right I still highly doubt the viewer and player base would be much better (perhaps marginally better at best) than it currently is.
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On October 04 2016 09:31 Fliparoni wrote:
You are all way overthinking this. Tell me something. Can anyone really name any other RTS out there that was made in the last 5 years or so that is even remotely in the same universe as SC2 in terms of popularity? I cant and there is a reason why no companies are making RTS games anymore. It is simply because no one really plays them anymore in terms of the general gaming population. Even if Blizzard had done everything right I still highly doubt the viewer and player base would be much better (perhaps marginally better at best) than it currently is.
Yup thats pretty much it. Thats why moba are taking over. This is all about micro and ofc teamplay which is easier to get in as a casual.
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Blizzard is still in full control of their product. They are free to implement whatever they want, just like how people should be free to express whatever they desire out of a game.
You know excuses have run dry when people start targeting the player base for blaming. I've seen this in WoW's decline, TERA etc. Blizzard has had years of experience and knowledge of what made their previous products so good (I hope) and many opportunities to deliver. It is no one else's fault but their own.
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On October 04 2016 09:36 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2016 09:31 Fliparoni wrote:
You are all way overthinking this. Tell me something. Can anyone really name any other RTS out there that was made in the last 5 years or so that is even remotely in the same universe as SC2 in terms of popularity? I cant and there is a reason why no companies are making RTS games anymore. It is simply because no one really plays them anymore in terms of the general gaming population. Even if Blizzard had done everything right I still highly doubt the viewer and player base would be much better (perhaps marginally better at best) than it currently is. Yup thats pretty much it. Thats why moba are taking over. This is all about micro and ofc teamplay which is easier to get in as a casual.
speak for yourself. I grew up with RTS, and its still my favorite genre. yet i cannot bring myself to play sc2 anymore. i would buy/play wc4 in a heartbeat. in wc3 you could not lose your entire army if you looked away for 2 sec to catch a mosquito in your room, while in sc2 there is this possibility and frustration. It's hard, i dont mind that its difficult, but its hard in the wrong areas.
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There are a lot of reasons and people to point at for the downfall of SC2, but I feel that there are two main reasons that SC2 is dying.
Firstly, Blizzard's early game design was very lazy, primarily due to their hesitance to change the game engine and, instead, resorting to only patching the "bugs" in the engine. I was one of many people who suggested certain changes, such as proposing that each unit should have "special" micro, akin to vulture patrol micro, muta stacking + move shot micro. What the community got was the WoL beta phoenix. Blizzard was never able to filter out the good suggestions from the bad suggestions; they just simply chose pander to the noobs/masses and take whatever suggestions the "pros" gave to be absolute. They didn't understand the idea of 1 vulture potentially killing an infinite amount of zerglings or surrounding a poorly controlled group of dragoons with mines.
Secondly, the satisfaction and enjoyment from playing any game comes from mastering and improving at a difficult game. Since the micro in SC2 is computer assisted, there is minimal precision behind these actions; you just have to do them as fast as you can with moderate accuracy. I have no qualms with having autocast, smartcast, automine, MBS, smart AI, etc, but when the computer is doing 75% of the dirty work, and the 25% left for the human player to do is just Attack-move, hold position, cast storm here, stop here, patrol this area, etc, the game becomes less interesting than chess.
I understand Blizzard wanted to implement all of their new and wonderful quality-of-life changes to the AI -- fine. But who's the best at autocasting? The computer. Who's the best at smart casting? The computer. MBS? Computer. Smart AI A-move? Computer. There is no difference from spamming whatever hotkey a person uses for Storm than from splitting the storms. There is no sizable difference from strategically placing your units on the map to flank someone than from just steamrollering with a death ball. There is no downside to sending dropships with marines and medics everywhere since it's no drain on controlling the main deathball. As a result, the human player is merely an extension of the computer; there is absolutely no room in SC2 for the human player to exhibit better control, better A-move, better MBS, or better strategic thinking.
You could argue that unit composition is strategy. I personally don't think it is, but okay.
You could argue that splitting marines is limited by human control.
You could argue that spellcasting takes precision.
You could argue that speed is worth practicing for. Sure.
But then let me ask you this: would you want to watch a competition of two people compete in a speedtyping contest, where the prompt is "What is the best way to establish world peace," where each contestant is given automatic spell correction and the winner is decided firstly by word count instead of by content? Wouldn't it be better to have a more in-depth prompt, where spell-checking is given but not automatically corrected, and by judging by the content rather than the word count?
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Dakota_Fanning
Hungary2349 Posts
"Unfortunately" op has some very good points. I still want to play SC2, but when I do, I don't want to play LotV, but instead I play WoL and COOP. I just don't enjoy LotV. Drastic changes would be required for me to enjoy it (resource model included).
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Well, given that there are so few tournaments in Korea, when they have an event other than GSL, SSL, and Proleague, it wouldn't be fair to them if a foreigner just comes in to dominate and take first place. A foreigner is literally destroying Korean SC2 scene.
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I would kill for a good 1v1 rts game. Hell, if the 2v2 would be good i would play that aswell.
RTS is my favorite Genre by far, but here i am not playing any RTS at the moment. Why is that? Because the genre is dead? NO!
Because there isnt any good RTS game out there. IF i were to play one it would be broodwar, but playing SC2 is a NO NO, BIG NO and its not because the market is dead lol
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On October 05 2016 14:16 Foxxan wrote:
I would kill for a good 1v1 rts game. Hell, if the 2v2 would be good i would play that aswell.
RTS is my favorite Genre by far, but here i am not playing any RTS at the moment. Why is that? Because the genre is dead? NO!
Because there isnt any good RTS game out there. IF i were to play one it would be broodwar, but playing SC2 is a NO NO, BIG NO and its not because the market is dead lol
Pretty much all game dev companies disagree with you, hence they're not making RTSs. May be you're right and they're wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it.
As I've said before, RTS may be revived by making one with a large luck element, which would make losing less unpleasant. I doubt anyone would take a risk on such a game, though.
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I think SC2 is too predictable and too hard counter based.
This leaves no room for subtlety in the game, no on the fly adjustments to current composition, a full tech switch is required (hope you have enough time). I find this predictable and very lazy RTS game design. It also is the reason why SC2 games feel unsatisfying.
The result is games with 1 unit spam, my god seriously, you call that RTS ?
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I think the game directors just messed up by making SC2 so much faster combat-wise than broodwar, and with every expansion, it just got worse.
Just stuff out of their control such as the camera being more zoomed out, collision boxes being so much smaller just makes combat so much less epic.
Spammable micro based skills really shouldn't be the core of an army. Stalkers with blink, adepts, ravagers disruptors etc. Stalkers were intentionally made shit against everything because they had blink, so much so that they are one of the most cost inefficient units in the game without it. The skills make the game so much faster than it has to be because using them just speeds up combat so much.
Remember WoL protoss early game? Was laughably weak on gateway tech because the sentry existed to stop them from dying.
Phoenix lift is an example where it works well - it's insanely good in small numbers, but rapidly diminishes in value in larger groups for straight up killing stuff.
Finally, for viewer enjoyment, the core of an endgame army shouldn't be one unit, and it REALLY should not be an air unit. Watching a cloud of units go up against a cloud of units is just terrible.
Goals for where they want to go with an RTS should be
Spread out units more
Slow down combat
Emphasize macro - lower the required workers per base, increase bases, etc. You won't get it to broodwar levels since multi-building select and such is really needed for a modern game, but you can make it more difficult.
Lower the emphasis on army micro, put the spells on the spell casters and leave it unless you can make it work like phoenix lift - extremely good on a small scale, strategic on the big scale. This should also make positioning a lot more important.
You can still have game changing spells in there that are flat out broken. But you have to make sure that they can't be massed, whether it be through prohibitive cost or micro limitations etc.
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Without reading throug all of this, I'll add my opinion.
SC and SC2 were games designed to the needs and wishes of a non - Pro western audience. Patching it closely to the wishes of those who play it in , a certain way, best ruins it.
I know this sounds cheesy, but often in life its the choices somebody else makes for us have the coolest outcome.
You don't tell the chef at the fancy restaurant how to prepare your dish, you let him choose. You don't want your favourite band to play "only that one song you liked from the radio" 24 Times in a row.
And you don't ask children IF they want icecream for dinner every night.
You should not ask Korean 500APM-Uber-Terrans if they actually think MASS MMM + Liberator and Tank is the best way to play terran.
Thats why you go thorugh the uber-Terrans so fast. Teaja, Innovation, Maru........all long gone, hit the scene forced the meta to shift to their multitask and fallen to the evermore lowered skill ceiling for protoss and zerg.
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On October 05 2016 18:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
Without reading throug all of this, I'll add my opinion.
SC and SC2 were games designed to the needs and wishes of a non - Pro western audience. Patching it closely to the wishes of those who play it in , a certain way, best ruins it.
I know this sounds cheesy, but often in life its the choices somebody else makes for us have the coolest outcome.
You don't tell the chef at the fancy restaurant how to prepare your dish, you let him choose. You don't want your favourite band to play "only that one song you liked from the radio" 24 Times in a row.
And you don't ask children IF they want icecream for dinner every night.
You should not ask Korean 500APM-Uber-Terrans if they actually think MASS MMM + Liberator and Tank is the best way to play terran.
Thats why you go thorugh the uber-Terrans so fast. Teaja, Innovation, Maru........all long gone, hit the scene forced the meta to shift to their multitask and fallen to the evermore lowered skill ceiling for protoss and zerg.
Ahem...bullshit.
Regarding Starcraft Broodwar, players like Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, Savior and Flash all had different playstyles yet all were dominant and the game was never patched specifically because of them and their playstyles.
Regarding Starcraft 2, don't blame koreans for playing terran to it's maximum potential, blame Blizzard and their retarded design of Protoss and Zerg. If Protoss and Zerg were well designed you wouldn't have this opinion. You'd praise the game and call it's design awesome.
The problem isn't Terran or 500 apm koreans, it's Protoss and Zerg. Always has been.
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Canada16699 Posts
On October 04 2016 09:31 Fliparoni wrote:
You are all way overthinking this. Tell me something. Can anyone really name any other RTS out there that was made in the last 5 years or so that is even remotely in the same universe as SC2 in terms of popularity? I cant and there is a reason why no companies are making RTS games anymore. It is simply because no one really plays them anymore in terms of the general gaming population. Even if Blizzard had done everything right I still highly doubt the viewer and player base would be much better (perhaps marginally better at best) than it currently is.
it is fascinating to note that as many genres age.. the games get better and as a paradox they make less money. often a franchise sequel will be better in every respect and the sequel makes less cash.
it is at this point publishers start to pull the plug.
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I'm no game designer, neither am I as experienced as a lot of you guys posting, but here are my thoughts.
THE GAME
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SC2 is a beautiful game! I love playing it at top high masters as Terran in 1v1, and I love playing it with my mates in the 2v2, 3v3 format. Through all the balance changes that come and go there is always the excitement when your race gets a buff, and a sense of fearful curiosity when other races get it. It is however always exciting both to play and watch SC2 games.
THE BALANCE
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Terran won the GSL in a TvP finals, Zerg won the SSL in a ZvZ finals, and Protoss won the Kespa Cup in a PvP finals. What more do we want? This is by far theeeee most balanced the game has looked at least to me. The Game is "at" if not "extremely near" the perfect spot.
NOT THE MOST WATCHED GAME
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It's a tough game to learn and play and be good at, and I like that! Most of my friends tried to understand it and couldn't. I feel superior to casual gamers playing easier games, and classes and masses will always be where they're at.
NOT BROODWAR
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I won't come out and say it's better than Broodwar and be hated all my life by all the BW fans out there. But I will say that it's a different game. People good at Broodwar didn't always become the best here, and I'm sure people really good at SC2 would suck at BW. It's a stylistic preference. Both games and I've hear BW more than SC2 require a whole lotta skill, and two different kind of skills to play these games too. SC2 is not BroodWar, and I don't think it has to be. I'm all excited for the HD BROODWAR coming out, and I hope they add in a campaign to that too and make it something totally cool.
CONCLUSION
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Whiners will wine, if they walk bare feet for miles or drive a Ferrari for the same distance. There's more money in other games for gamers, just like its different for every sport for athletes. A guy who can run the fastest may not be the best soccer player. Everybody out there makes their own decisions, I hope for a more positive and optimistic outlook for SC2.
Cheers! May Sc2 make our gamers happy and rich (especially those skilled poor souls in Korea), and may more people understand the beauty of SC2 to promote its game. AMEN
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Canada16699 Posts
There are some streamers who constantly complain about how horrible the game is even though they've been playing it for many hours per week for over 6 years.
SC2's long term prospects are bleak for those trying to find a way to make money off of it in the future. its best to have an exit strategy if you are in this group. for those who want to buy a game, play it and have fun SC2 is just fine. Even considering its 6+ years old.
Its been a good 6.5 years. I'm going to stick with SC2 for atleast another year. 7.5 years of fun for $140USD is a good deal.
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On October 06 2016 03:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
There are some streamers who constantly complain about how horrible the game is even though they've been playing it for many hours per week for over 6 years.
SC2's long term prospects are bleak for those trying to find a way to make money off of it in the future. its best to have an exit strategy if you are in this group. for those who want to buy a game, play it and have fun SC2 is just fine. Even considering its 6+ years old.
Its been a good 6.5 years. I'm going to stick with SC2 for atleast another year. 7.5 years of fun for $140USD is a good deal.
Not to mention that the amount of hours of entertainment that I've gotten for free have been absolutely massive in comparison to other forms of media entertainment.
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You're completely ignoring all the extrinsic factors that are causing the downfall in Korea, like viable, free alternatives that are more social and less stressful. It's quite obvious.
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EPT
