• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:07
CEST 22:07
KST 05:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection3Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June0Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th151Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League6
StarCraft 2
General
My starcraft 2 changes StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ 14k games analyzed: Cross Spawn Nexus first good? Tesagi Viewer - A new era of replay watching FlaSh's ASL S21 Finals Review VPN experiences
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How cold is too cold to be outdoors? Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4989 users

David Kim interview @ DH Montreal: What's the end game for…

Forum Index > SC2 General
103 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-20 21:08:20
August 20 2016 21:08 GMT
#81
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all


Who is vocal minority? I think both sides have a lot of supporters. More difficult game vs less spells/less complex game.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
August 20 2016 21:09 GMT
#82
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all

"utterly different" doesn't mean anything though. It's not realistic because blizzard didn't use the two addons to try anything radical, i never played wc3 but people always tell me how different the game was after the expansion.

You can say that it's a vocal minority, but that's probably ALWAYS true for any kind of game, that doesn't mean that these other people who don't have an opinion on it wouldn't like the game better if it changed though, most "casuals" simply don't give a damn about different game design concepts, etc.

Add a real high ground advantage to sc2 right now and most people won't even notice it, that doesn't mean that the game wouldn't be better for them and people who actually care.
Same with a lot of other things. This "vocal minority" concept is nice to deny any form of discussion about issues though, i don't think it's a good way to think about the scene though.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17564 Posts
August 20 2016 21:28 GMT
#83
On August 21 2016 06:08 Shield wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all


Who is vocal minority? I think both sides have a lot of supporters. More difficult game vs less spells/less complex game.


i have several silver and gold friends who've solved this issue of too much complexity in LotV. they play WoL on 2v2 Ladder.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-20 21:38:51
August 20 2016 21:35 GMT
#84
On August 21 2016 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all

"utterly different" doesn't mean anything though. It's not realistic because blizzard didn't use the two addons to try anything radical, i never played wc3 but people always tell me how different the game was after the expansion.

You can say that it's a vocal minority, but that's probably ALWAYS true for any kind of game, that doesn't mean that these other people who don't have an opinion on it wouldn't like the game better if it changed though, most "casuals" simply don't give a damn about different game design concepts, etc.

Add a real high ground advantage to sc2 right now and most people won't even notice it, that doesn't mean that the game wouldn't be better for them and people who actually care.
Same with a lot of other things. This "vocal minority" concept is nice to deny any form of discussion about issues though, i don't think it's a good way to think about the scene though.

Virtually every change ever happens because a vocal minority wants something. Lobbies by definition are vocal minorities and drive much progress. Most people don't care enough to investigate certain issues, so that their voice carries little power to shape outcomes.

Of course it comes in various forms and shapes, so that the situation where you have a small group of cranks perpetually whining about their unrealistic goals falls in the same category as, to pick an extreme example, civil rights activism.

Studies show that for many domains the majority opinion will typically be correct, but there are many exceptions to this. In the case of this talk about fundamental design changes it is compounded by the fact that there is partly a discussion of values taking place: what type of game do you want Starcraft 2 to be? And whose voices should carry more weight? Yet there is also an element of what empirically might be most enjoyable for most people of some group, so that expert opinion does creep in. Many that call for fundamental changes believe that everyone will benefit from them.

etc. I think it's a fairly interesting topic: when should you listen to a vocal minority?
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33624 Posts
August 20 2016 21:48 GMT
#85
On August 21 2016 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all

"utterly different" doesn't mean anything though. It's not realistic because blizzard didn't use the two addons to try anything radical, i never played wc3 but people always tell me how different the game was after the expansion.

You can say that it's a vocal minority, but that's probably ALWAYS true for any kind of game, that doesn't mean that these other people who don't have an opinion on it wouldn't like the game better if it changed though, most "casuals" simply don't give a damn about different game design concepts, etc.

Add a real high ground advantage to sc2 right now and most people won't even notice it, that doesn't mean that the game wouldn't be better for them and people who actually care.
Same with a lot of other things. This "vocal minority" concept is nice to deny any form of discussion about issues though, i don't think it's a good way to think about the scene though.


I guess that on the other end, Blizzard's track record where they're willing to make drastic changes to "broken" games will always give fans hope that the game can change in the direction they want
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-20 22:06:19
August 20 2016 22:00 GMT
#86
On August 21 2016 06:35 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all

"utterly different" doesn't mean anything though. It's not realistic because blizzard didn't use the two addons to try anything radical, i never played wc3 but people always tell me how different the game was after the expansion.

You can say that it's a vocal minority, but that's probably ALWAYS true for any kind of game, that doesn't mean that these other people who don't have an opinion on it wouldn't like the game better if it changed though, most "casuals" simply don't give a damn about different game design concepts, etc.

Add a real high ground advantage to sc2 right now and most people won't even notice it, that doesn't mean that the game wouldn't be better for them and people who actually care.
Same with a lot of other things. This "vocal minority" concept is nice to deny any form of discussion about issues though, i don't think it's a good way to think about the scene though.

Virtually every change ever happens because a vocal minority wants something. Lobbies by definition are vocal minorities and drive much progress. Most people don't care enough to investigate certain issues, so that their voice carries little power to shape outcomes.

Of course it comes in various forms and shapes, so that the situation where you have a small group of cranks perpetually whining about their unrealistic goals falls in the same category as, to pick an extreme example, civil rights activism.

Studies show that for many domains the majority opinion will typically be correct, but there are many exceptions to this. In the case of this talk about fundamental design changes it is compounded by the fact that there is partly a discussion of values taking place: what type of game do you want Starcraft 2 to be? And whose voices should carry more weight? Yet there is also an element of what empirically might be most enjoyable for most people of some group, so that expert opinion does creep in. Many that call for fundamental changes believe that everyone will benefit from them.

etc. I think it's a fairly interesting topic: when should you listen to a vocal minority?


Studies show that for many domains the majority opinion will typically be correct

Can you give some examples here? Initially i wouldn't believe this at all tbh, i would argue that typically people don't have a real opinion on a lot of stuff, mostly because it wasn't important enough in their mind to actually think about it.
Imo this is also true for sc2, it's kinda enjoyable and that is enough for the majority i think.
But yeah you are right with: "what type of game do you want Starcraft 2 to be?" But again, i doubt many people actually think about this very question and thus their opinion is mostly about enjoyment atm, not if they would enjoy it more if x happens.

On August 21 2016 06:48 Waxangel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all

"utterly different" doesn't mean anything though. It's not realistic because blizzard didn't use the two addons to try anything radical, i never played wc3 but people always tell me how different the game was after the expansion.

You can say that it's a vocal minority, but that's probably ALWAYS true for any kind of game, that doesn't mean that these other people who don't have an opinion on it wouldn't like the game better if it changed though, most "casuals" simply don't give a damn about different game design concepts, etc.

Add a real high ground advantage to sc2 right now and most people won't even notice it, that doesn't mean that the game wouldn't be better for them and people who actually care.
Same with a lot of other things. This "vocal minority" concept is nice to deny any form of discussion about issues though, i don't think it's a good way to think about the scene though.


I guess that on the other end, Blizzard's track record where they're willing to make drastic changes to "broken" games will always give fans hope that the game can change in the direction they want

Sure sc2 isn't really "broken", but that doesn't mean that it reaches its potential. Was Wc3 extremely broken before the addon?
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-20 22:21:38
August 20 2016 22:20 GMT
#87
On August 21 2016 07:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 06:35 Grumbels wrote:
On August 21 2016 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all

"utterly different" doesn't mean anything though. It's not realistic because blizzard didn't use the two addons to try anything radical, i never played wc3 but people always tell me how different the game was after the expansion.

You can say that it's a vocal minority, but that's probably ALWAYS true for any kind of game, that doesn't mean that these other people who don't have an opinion on it wouldn't like the game better if it changed though, most "casuals" simply don't give a damn about different game design concepts, etc.

Add a real high ground advantage to sc2 right now and most people won't even notice it, that doesn't mean that the game wouldn't be better for them and people who actually care.
Same with a lot of other things. This "vocal minority" concept is nice to deny any form of discussion about issues though, i don't think it's a good way to think about the scene though.

Virtually every change ever happens because a vocal minority wants something. Lobbies by definition are vocal minorities and drive much progress. Most people don't care enough to investigate certain issues, so that their voice carries little power to shape outcomes.

Of course it comes in various forms and shapes, so that the situation where you have a small group of cranks perpetually whining about their unrealistic goals falls in the same category as, to pick an extreme example, civil rights activism.

Studies show that for many domains the majority opinion will typically be correct, but there are many exceptions to this. In the case of this talk about fundamental design changes it is compounded by the fact that there is partly a discussion of values taking place: what type of game do you want Starcraft 2 to be? And whose voices should carry more weight? Yet there is also an element of what empirically might be most enjoyable for most people of some group, so that expert opinion does creep in. Many that call for fundamental changes believe that everyone will benefit from them.

etc. I think it's a fairly interesting topic: when should you listen to a vocal minority?


Show nested quote +
Studies show that for many domains the majority opinion will typically be correct

Can you give some examples here? Initially i wouldn't believe this at all tbh, i would argue that typically people don't have a real opinion on a lot of stuff, mostly because it wasn't important enough in their mind to actually think about it.
Imo this is also true for sc2, it's kinda enjoyable and that is enough for the majority i think.
But yeah you are right with: "what type of game do you want Starcraft 2 to be?" But again, i doubt many people actually think about this very question and thus their opinion is mostly about enjoyment atm, not if they would enjoy it more if x happens.

Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 06:48 Waxangel wrote:
On August 21 2016 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all

"utterly different" doesn't mean anything though. It's not realistic because blizzard didn't use the two addons to try anything radical, i never played wc3 but people always tell me how different the game was after the expansion.

You can say that it's a vocal minority, but that's probably ALWAYS true for any kind of game, that doesn't mean that these other people who don't have an opinion on it wouldn't like the game better if it changed though, most "casuals" simply don't give a damn about different game design concepts, etc.

Add a real high ground advantage to sc2 right now and most people won't even notice it, that doesn't mean that the game wouldn't be better for them and people who actually care.
Same with a lot of other things. This "vocal minority" concept is nice to deny any form of discussion about issues though, i don't think it's a good way to think about the scene though.


I guess that on the other end, Blizzard's track record where they're willing to make drastic changes to "broken" games will always give fans hope that the game can change in the direction they want

Sure sc2 isn't really "broken", but that doesn't mean that it reaches its potential. Was Wc3 extremely broken before the addon?

The game changed a lot in the expansion and subsequent patches: more macro oriented, more unit diversity, slower tech, higher unit count, less caster units, more expanding, resources became more important etc. The funny thing is that in retrospect most people will say that the game was broken (or at least one dimensional) before the expansion, even if that wasn't the prevailing opinion at the time.

Show nested quote +
Studies show that for many domains the majority opinion will typically be correct

Can you give some examples here?

To be honest I was thinking of this article I read a while ago. But I didn't mean to imply that the majority always knows best, I probably expressed myself clumsily. The point is that this is a topic which has been studied by psychologists and the like, so I would encourage everyone to track down some research on it and consider it from a scientific angle in terms of asking 'for what domains would the majority opinion be correct more often?' and so on.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
August 20 2016 23:04 GMT
#88
It's an interesting article, thanks.

But in the case of sc2, what is this majority opinion? I absolutely believe that most people playing/watching the game right now are happy with it. I am kinda "happy" with it as well, the difference is that i think it could be better.
I don't think that the majority thinks that it couldn't be better with some changes here and there. Would they actually think it is "better" with changes i would like? I don't know.

It's just that in the case of sc2 these things are fairly vague, the only real option might be to simply test it. I feel blizzard didn't really do that with their expansions/betas.


One big "problem" i personally think is still part of sc2 is that maxed army engagements are not fun to play or watch for the most time. I don't think anybody knows if the majority agrees with this or not.

Btw in the case of art you could argue that majority opinion is always right because in the end people need to enjoy the product/work. Changes obviously a little bit with if we have clear expectations/target audiences.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17564 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-20 23:09:11
August 20 2016 23:04 GMT
#89
On August 21 2016 06:48 Waxangel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all

"utterly different" doesn't mean anything though. It's not realistic because blizzard didn't use the two addons to try anything radical, i never played wc3 but people always tell me how different the game was after the expansion.

You can say that it's a vocal minority, but that's probably ALWAYS true for any kind of game, that doesn't mean that these other people who don't have an opinion on it wouldn't like the game better if it changed though, most "casuals" simply don't give a damn about different game design concepts, etc.

Add a real high ground advantage to sc2 right now and most people won't even notice it, that doesn't mean that the game wouldn't be better for them and people who actually care.
Same with a lot of other things. This "vocal minority" concept is nice to deny any form of discussion about issues though, i don't think it's a good way to think about the scene though.


I guess that on the other end, Blizzard's track record where they're willing to make drastic changes to "broken" games will always give fans hope that the game can change in the direction they want


i think some people want the MULE, Chronoboost, Larva Inject removed as macro-mechanics.. and its clear from DKs paragraph about drastic changes that just ain't gonna happen. Red_Viper does make a good point though that DK's granularity was low making it hard to tell exactly what did and did not constitute a "drastic change". its clear DK is providing macro/big-picture type direction here. I can smell what hte Rock is cookin' with DK's comments though.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Kit_Rochester
Profile Joined August 2016
3 Posts
August 20 2016 23:07 GMT
#90
I’ve been reading some of the community feedback. Western feedback is positive, or takes a wait-and-see stance. I feel the Korean feedback has been very different. It’s a very ironic situation where the West is asking for things to be more like Brood War while the Koreans say that the game is too hard.


Like others have said I'm not really sure what this means and I wish I knew how David Kim interpreted it. Between SC2 and BW there are many different kinds of difficulty and both games are harder and easier along different axes. Depending on which you're talking about it would be possible to make SC2 easier *by* making it more like BW.

On August 21 2016 06:08 Shield wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all


Who is vocal minority? I think both sides have a lot of supporters. More difficult game vs less spells/less complex game.


Are those really the sides? I get a sense that wanting to lessen the surface-level complexity of unit/ability bloat is a view shared by a lot of people with otherwise very different opinions about what the game should be.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-21 03:18:11
August 21 2016 03:12 GMT
#91
So Korean pros are now the 'vocal minority'?

Plus most of the existing Korean pros come from a BW background. Arguably, it is the newer generation (i.e. ESL players) who have mostly dropped off the game, whilst KeSPA players being more resilient and staying in stronger. It's worrying that that former top players (e.g. Flash and Effort) are going back to BW, and even those who did well in SC2 (e.g. Rain and Soulkey) have given up. And worst of all, there is lack of new blood.

Meanwhile, BW is gaining back hype amongst Korean viewers.

It's quite clear that the Korean scene wants a return to a more BW-esque game play. Whether it's due to nostalgia or entertainment, it doesn't matter. They have spoken up, and the question is whether Blizzard wants to heed this 'vocal minority'.

Of course, if Blizzard wants to build the SC2 scene around WCS and international tourneys, that's purely within its prerogative (and may actually work in widening its player base and popularity). But that would bring the end to the Korean SC2 scene.
gg no re thx
palexhur
Profile Joined May 2010
Colombia730 Posts
August 21 2016 03:34 GMT
#92
On August 21 2016 12:12 RKC wrote:

Of course, if Blizzard wants to build the SC2 scene around WCS and international tourneys, that's purely within its prerogative (and may actually work in widening its player base and popularity). But that would bring the end to the Korean SC2 scene.


After reading news for SC2 and BW, I think that what you said is the target of Blizz, encouraging SC2 for the foreign scene, where it is still popular but declining, and support BW for Korea where BW is far more popular than SC2 and it just will be forever. The question for SC2 is with these changes they can make a wider scene? I doubt that seriously, the game reached its peak long time ago and now theres not way for this to recover.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28528 Posts
August 21 2016 20:07 GMT
#93
On August 21 2016 06:00 Waxangel wrote:
a vocal minority want an utterly different game; that's not realistic at all

Is asking to stop buffing and start nerfing plus stop adding and maybe remove some abilities the same as asking for an utterly different game?
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-21 20:42:55
August 21 2016 20:40 GMT
#94
On August 21 2016 08:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's an interesting article, thanks.

But in the case of sc2, what is this majority opinion? I absolutely believe that most people playing/watching the game right now are happy with it. I am kinda "happy" with it as well, the difference is that i think it could be better.
I don't think that the majority thinks that it couldn't be better with some changes here and there. Would they actually think it is "better" with changes i would like? I don't know.

It's just that in the case of sc2 these things are fairly vague, the only real option might be to simply test it. I feel blizzard didn't really do that with their expansions/betas.


One big "problem" i personally think is still part of sc2 is that maxed army engagements are not fun to play or watch for the most time. I don't think anybody knows if the majority agrees with this or not.

Btw in the case of art you could argue that majority opinion is always right because in the end people need to enjoy the product/work. Changes obviously a little bit with if we have clear expectations/target audiences.

I think it's a bit tricky, because obviously most players still left are the ones that enjoy the game. I guess this shows that when one considers majority opinions first one has to decide what group of people to listen to. And there are many such groups. And what should be the ranking? Progamers > current players > viewers > former players > casual fans > potential fans? Any discussion like that is a minefield. I sometimes think that if you don't play the game your opinion automatically should carry less weight, but at the same time I have opinions about what sort of changes would entice me to consider picking up the game again, since I haven't played LotV myself because I strongly suspected I wouldn't like it. I could understand if someone presently enjoying the gameplay would take a somewhat dismissive view of my perspective. Should Blizzard really risk potentially destructive overhauls of fundamentals only to chase after some elusive ex-player coming from a dysfunctional relationship with Starcraft 2?
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
August 21 2016 21:00 GMT
#95
On August 22 2016 05:40 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 08:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's an interesting article, thanks.

But in the case of sc2, what is this majority opinion? I absolutely believe that most people playing/watching the game right now are happy with it. I am kinda "happy" with it as well, the difference is that i think it could be better.
I don't think that the majority thinks that it couldn't be better with some changes here and there. Would they actually think it is "better" with changes i would like? I don't know.

It's just that in the case of sc2 these things are fairly vague, the only real option might be to simply test it. I feel blizzard didn't really do that with their expansions/betas.


One big "problem" i personally think is still part of sc2 is that maxed army engagements are not fun to play or watch for the most time. I don't think anybody knows if the majority agrees with this or not.

Btw in the case of art you could argue that majority opinion is always right because in the end people need to enjoy the product/work. Changes obviously a little bit with if we have clear expectations/target audiences.

I think it's a bit tricky, because obviously most players still left are the ones that enjoy the game. I guess this shows that when one considers majority opinions first one has to decide what group of people to listen to. And there are many such groups. And what should be the ranking? Progamers > current players > viewers > former players > casual fans > potential fans? Any discussion like that is a minefield. I sometimes think that if you don't play the game your opinion automatically should carry less weight, but at the same time I have opinions about what sort of changes would entice me to consider picking up the game again, since I haven't played LotV myself because I strongly suspected I wouldn't like it. I could understand if someone presently enjoying the gameplay would take a somewhat dismissive view of my perspective. Should Blizzard really risk potentially destructive overhauls of fundamentals only to chase after some elusive ex-player coming from a dysfunctional relationship with Starcraft 2?


No i don't think that they should necessarily risk it, but i absolutely think that this isn't even the only option these days.
Today it is easier than ever to simply test it and work with the community on iterations. Have a ptr, make it easily accessible for everyone, maybe even give people something for testing it.

I mean even little indi studios do this with "open access" titles these days, the community is basically part of the development and i think that is great. You obviously still need a good idea in which direction the game has to go, but community feedback is a great tool imo.

I will completely ignore the monatory aspect right now and if it's actually viable for blizzard to put in that much effort, but i surely would hope so, everything you can read about the future of sc2 would at least make it a realistic possibility.

I mean blizzard's goal since forever was to destroy the "deathball". Did they do a good job with it? Not really imo. Was a different pathing system tested publicly? No. (they said they tested it internally, but i am not sure about that one tbh)
Blizzard does somewhat listen to feedback, the problem (imo) is that their solutions are never all that great. We never tested more economy models (ok let's be real the current one is the same economy model, the maps changed not how the economy works) We never got a protoss redesign, we got "bandaid" fixes like the mothershipcore.
Imo you can break down these things and make good points why their solutions aren't good. Most people playing some ladder games here and there will never actually think about any of that though. They will play, have a decent enough experience to come back later on but that's about it really.

And as you said, the people still playing the game like it (enough) to still be here, that doesn't make it easier.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-21 21:20:59
August 21 2016 21:14 GMT
#96
These are questions that sum up the majority of what the community has been feeling. I don't feel like David really addressed any of the major concerns. It sounds like the same general answers that any employee at blizzard would say about balance. I feel like the take-away from this interview is "there are a lot of players and the game is pretty difficult to balance overall, so we're catching feedback in the meantime. We just want you to know that player opinions matter."
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
lestye
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4209 Posts
August 21 2016 21:24 GMT
#97
On August 21 2016 12:12 RKC wrote:
So Korean pros are now the 'vocal minority'?

Plus most of the existing Korean pros come from a BW background. Arguably, it is the newer generation (i.e. ESL players) who have mostly dropped off the game, whilst KeSPA players being more resilient and staying in stronger. It's worrying that that former top players (e.g. Flash and Effort) are going back to BW, and even those who did well in SC2 (e.g. Rain and Soulkey) have given up. And worst of all, there is lack of new blood.

Meanwhile, BW is gaining back hype amongst Korean viewers.

It's quite clear that the Korean scene wants a return to a more BW-esque game play. Whether it's due to nostalgia or entertainment, it doesn't matter. They have spoken up, and the question is whether Blizzard wants to heed this 'vocal minority'.

Of course, if Blizzard wants to build the SC2 scene around WCS and international tourneys, that's purely within its prerogative (and may actually work in widening its player base and popularity). But that would bring the end to the Korean SC2 scene.

At the same time, I feel like this is a wasted opportunity. Is the correct path to be more like Brood War or take the opportunity to have a different type of RTS experience?

Yeah, you could argue that as a sequel, it should be very similiar to BW, but I think if they're going to go ahead and made an HD version of BW anymore, having 2 games that cover the same aspects of an RTS is redundant, wouldnt it make sense for SC2 to be different/cover a different skillset? Or is that alienating fans and potential players?
"You guys are just edgelords. Embrace your inner weeb desu" -Zergneedsfood
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
August 22 2016 13:03 GMT
#98
On August 22 2016 06:24 lestye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 12:12 RKC wrote:
So Korean pros are now the 'vocal minority'?

Plus most of the existing Korean pros come from a BW background. Arguably, it is the newer generation (i.e. ESL players) who have mostly dropped off the game, whilst KeSPA players being more resilient and staying in stronger. It's worrying that that former top players (e.g. Flash and Effort) are going back to BW, and even those who did well in SC2 (e.g. Rain and Soulkey) have given up. And worst of all, there is lack of new blood.

Meanwhile, BW is gaining back hype amongst Korean viewers.

It's quite clear that the Korean scene wants a return to a more BW-esque game play. Whether it's due to nostalgia or entertainment, it doesn't matter. They have spoken up, and the question is whether Blizzard wants to heed this 'vocal minority'.

Of course, if Blizzard wants to build the SC2 scene around WCS and international tourneys, that's purely within its prerogative (and may actually work in widening its player base and popularity). But that would bring the end to the Korean SC2 scene.

At the same time, I feel like this is a wasted opportunity. Is the correct path to be more like Brood War or take the opportunity to have a different type of RTS experience?

Yeah, you could argue that as a sequel, it should be very similiar to BW, but I think if they're going to go ahead and made an HD version of BW anymore, having 2 games that cover the same aspects of an RTS is redundant, wouldnt it make sense for SC2 to be different/cover a different skillset? Or is that alienating fans and potential players?


There is nothing wrong with Bliz trying to make a different RTS game with SC2 - different from even its prequel. Bliz has done it before, with some fair amount of success - it's called WC3.

(Ironically, I sometimes feel SC2 resembles a lot like with WC3, due to the emphasis to heroes or 'OP units' that could make all the difference - for instance early game Demon Hunter and Blademaster harass feels like Oracle and dropship WP harass. And WC3 armies clump together, almost like SC2 death-balls, causing many games to be decided after a major engagement. But perhaps this is a debate for another day.)

The difference is that the SC2 competitive scene rides on the wave and backbone of BW - at least for Korea. And in the early years, Bliz was happy for these two worlds to merge. So that makes both games intertwined. Perhaps some of the Korean pros (especially KeSPA) feel somewhat hurt and even betrayed that SC2 has been diverging further and further away from BW. This is not what they sign up for, so to speak, hence their frustration now. And maybe the feeling cascades to the fans, too. "This is not the game that we want to watch, let's watch some BW instead!"

SC2 can still succeed in the future, by carving a new player and fan base across the world. And Bliz has every right to do so - it's their baby, after all. But doing so would likely be at the expense of killing off the SC2 Korean scene. That's all I'm concerned about. By dismissing them as 'vocal minority', I guess their fate is pretty much sealed.
gg no re thx
Thouhastmail
Profile Joined March 2015
Korea (North)876 Posts
August 22 2016 13:53 GMT
#99
On August 22 2016 06:24 lestye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2016 12:12 RKC wrote:
So Korean pros are now the 'vocal minority'?

Plus most of the existing Korean pros come from a BW background. Arguably, it is the newer generation (i.e. ESL players) who have mostly dropped off the game, whilst KeSPA players being more resilient and staying in stronger. It's worrying that that former top players (e.g. Flash and Effort) are going back to BW, and even those who did well in SC2 (e.g. Rain and Soulkey) have given up. And worst of all, there is lack of new blood.

Meanwhile, BW is gaining back hype amongst Korean viewers.

It's quite clear that the Korean scene wants a return to a more BW-esque game play. Whether it's due to nostalgia or entertainment, it doesn't matter. They have spoken up, and the question is whether Blizzard wants to heed this 'vocal minority'.

Of course, if Blizzard wants to build the SC2 scene around WCS and international tourneys, that's purely within its prerogative (and may actually work in widening its player base and popularity). But that would bring the end to the Korean SC2 scene.

At the same time, I feel like this is a wasted opportunity. Is the correct path to be more like Brood War or take the opportunity to have a different type of RTS experience?

Yeah, you could argue that as a sequel, it should be very similiar to BW, but I think if they're going to go ahead and made an HD version of BW anymore, having 2 games that cover the same aspects of an RTS is redundant, wouldnt it make sense for SC2 to be different/cover a different skillset? Or is that alienating fans and potential players?



I agree with you in some degree. SC2 should be different from its prequel, because it`s been almost 20 yrs since BW was released.

However, the problem is, it seems that SC2 developers are possessed with the idea that SC2 must not take a single part of BW. I cannot find any reason why they cherish this insane pace of the game but the antipathy against BW.
"Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people we personally dislike"
coolman123123
Profile Joined August 2013
146 Posts
August 23 2016 02:08 GMT
#100
I've known this for years, but this patch and this interview make it increasingly apparent that Blizzard has a very shallow understanding of their own game and the problems within it. From other Blizzard games we've seen mistakes made but they are almost always corrected. SC2's team on the other hand, has adopted a sort of trial and error spitballing approach to development rather than thinking critically about the underlying problems with the game. The battles are still too short, harassment is too powerful and frequent, the economy is still flawed, several unit designs are terrible, yet Blizzard's ideas to improve the game are unit changes, which don't get me wrong I like these changes but it isn't going to improve the game long term.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Maestros of the Game
15:30
Group D
Zoun vs LamboLIVE!
RotterdaM1316
ComeBackTV 1262
IntoTheiNu 1097
TaKeTV 605
BRAT_OK 97
3DClanTV 91
Rex89
EnkiAlexander 78
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1316
uThermal 1280
IndyStarCraft 190
SteadfastSC 163
BRAT_OK 97
Rex 89
ProTech77
ZombieGrub52
MindelVK 20
Codebar 14
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 25989
Calm 4664
Dewaltoss 135
Rock 25
ajuk12(nOOB) 6
Counter-Strike
fl0m11091
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu254
Khaldor172
Other Games
Grubby3724
FrodaN2267
C9.Mang0166
mouzStarbuck157
KnowMe66
UpATreeSC52
QueenE37
Mew2King35
OptimusSC210
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV145
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 15
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota257
League of Legends
• TFBlade853
Other Games
• imaqtpie900
• Shiphtur146
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h 53m
Replay Cast
12h 53m
Solar vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
18h 53m
Grudge Match
19h 53m
FlaShFTW vs A.Alm
OSC
1d
MaxPax vs YoungYakov
Krystianer vs Shameless
GgMaChine vs Creature
LetaleX vs MiniZergUA
ReBellioN vs TBD
ArT vs HiGhDrA
Nicoract vs Azura
GSL
1d 11h
herO vs Rogue
Maru vs Cure
Patches Events
1d 16h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 18h
BSL
1d 22h
OSC
2 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KK 2v2 League Season 1
RSL Revival: Season 5
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.