EPTAny anti-air that doesn't suck would be fine.
Community Feedback Update 7/29 - Page 5
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
Any anti-air that doesn't suck would be fine. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
Therefore I suggested like half a year ago to move ravager on top of hydra and move lurker on top of roach. But then again we got the liberator way too early in the meta. Therefore it must be displaced as well. The liberator anyway comes in way too early. On the one hand it makes banshees kind of redundant, on the other hand liberators should not be spamable before zerg is able to build any mutalisks, which it is now. Meta is off in many ways. But yeah mentioned this like a dozen times here. These things are the major factors for why midgame in TvZ is mainly skipped now. Blizzard has to address these fundamental things I am convinced. And they probably will some day, the question is just how long it is gonna take them. When you follow this line of changes to the end it will come down to the fact that marauders are too strong early on e.g. against lurkers (which then will be on top of the roach instead of hydra) and remove the necessity of building more mech or even make pure mech not viable. In fact I believe in order to allow a reasonable buff of tanks (after removing tankivacs) it is necessary to remove marauders from the early/midgame and make them a lategame unit (e.g. akademy building). If SC2 could go along that path, alot would be helped already. Protoss can be adapted to this easily. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On July 30 2016 02:34 PinoKotsBeer wrote: "For example, if something is seen as overpowered but makes for fun games" Tell us how TvZ/P late game is fun for the terran player? Winning is generally considered fun by most players. So based on the transitive laws of Geometry we can conclude that Terran is fun to play. See how logic works :D | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On July 30 2016 21:24 Sweetness.751 wrote: Winning is generally considered fun by most players. So based of the transitive laws of Geometry we can conclude that Terran is fun to play. See how logic works :D Not sure how serious you are, but winning alone is not fun. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3453 Posts
Snute managed to make a similar style somewhat work, in Swarm Hosts vs Terran BIO on most maps in HotS. I think the bigger issue is that it takes 3 shots for a Lurker to kill a Marine. The way I would go about it, is to make Lurkers do 30 damage vs ALL unit types, but heavily reduce the Spike spawn time, so that exciting micro can also arise and good players can outmaneuvre the unit with good plays. Fungal would be more synergistic that way too. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
While win rates may be becoming more and more even, the game is simply too stressful to be fun. For example, while tankivac is not problematic in tvp, protoss has so much bullshit that you need tankivac to even have a chance in the mu, and tankivac is ruining tvt and is making zvt annoying as well. If you scale down on all the obvious bullshit things, you can also nerf things that are too strong defensively (like MSC and to an extent queens). The important thing to note is that while pros have gotten good at dealing with most of the BS, it is not fun to play against these things that are just instant win buttons if you aren't paying attention for a few seconds to your mini map. For example, in early HotS hellbats were nerfed in that they took up 4 cargo space in a medivac instead of 2. While pros were getting better at defending hellbat drops, it was simply ridiculous that 4 hellbats could fall out and your worker line would immediately evaporate if you weren't paying attention. Widow Mine - Cannot lock on to workers (workers can still die in the splash damage) While pros generally don't have trouble not losing that many workers to widow mines, it is still simply annoying to deal with them, particularly since widow mines don't trigger any warnings until half of your workers are gone. It forces opponents to get detection very early because of how quickly widow mines can come out. Compare that to BW vultures where spider mines needed to be researched (and if you rushed out mines, you would have shitty slow vultures, so getting the speed upgrade on top of that would delay any spider mine rushes further), plus spider mines don't trigger on workers. Vultures' basic attack killed workers quickly anyway, but they really needed both upgrades to be at full strength, so not only did it take awhile to get to that point, it was a big commitment to do so. They also die pretty quickly to cannons/dragoons and mutas could chase them away. Siege Tank - remove tankivac from the game, gain bonus damage to shields (on top of bonus damage to armored, unless this actually can't be programmed, in which case just buff the damage slightly). Medivac - Afterburners must be researched. It gives too much mobility to the terran army in the midgame, and it makes it too easy to do damage in drops and then get away with most of your units. If terran's lategame gets significant buffs (the thor and BC are totally useless, for example) then you could probably remove afterburners entirely. If you keep terran's lategame units shit you need to make medivacs lategame fast so terrans can actually move around the toss and zerg super armies which tend to be fairly immobile, as terrans have severe issues dealing with toss and zerg lategame. Liberator - Defender mode must be researched. Again, pros don't lose much (photon overcharge is broken, zergs are getting mass queens, and terrans can make 1 viking quickly), but it is simply a BS thing to deal with. While they still will own mutas, if their ground attack must be researched, making liberators will come with an actual cost and you can't just make a bunch of them without actually scouting. Ravager - Roach warren must be morphed into a new building (like how hydralisk den must be upgraded into lurker den) before you can morph in ravagers. Being able to kill forcefields has forced protoss to have severely bullshit units/mechanics of their own, as in WoL and HotS tosses were basically forced to rely on forcefields to not instantly die in the earlygame (photon overcharge definitely helped in HotS though) and ravagers throw that out the window with how early they can be made. With tankivac removed they will also kill every terran unless he just rushes stim every game, thus ravagers get nerfed. Ultralisk - Ultralisk armor upgrade only gives +2 def instead of +4 (would be 6 armor fully upgraded), but their base HP is increased to 650. They completely own terrans but are useless against toss. This change means they don't completely own marines and marauders, and makes them slightly less shitty against immortals. It also makes them slightly better against ghost snipe too. Queen - revert range buff If the other races are getting weaker at harass, the queen would become too good at stonewalling harass. For example, with medivacs needing to research afterburners, a couple of queens will easily stop a drop while taking nearly zero losses. Adept - Reduce to 40 shields and 40 health. They completely destroy pvt because they can just shade on top of marines and melt the army in seconds. They kill workers too quickly; even if you have defenses at home they are still guaranteed kills because they randomly have 150 total shields/health (literally the same as a damn zealot) and kill drones/probes in 2 hits (against terrans they mostly have only marines because of how their race is built, so if they don't have a ton of marines at home you just kill the marines and then all the scvs). It gives the protoss far too much freedom and map control because shade is so powerful. Adept harass with shade is so easy to execute relative to how difficult it is to deal with it. They've completely phased zealots out of the picture, and protosses are starting to make fewer and fewer of other units as well. People complain about terrans massing marines, but mass adepts are way worse. At least marines die to AoE and they can't teleport and they're absolute shit until you get stim. There are many ways to try and address these issues, but reducing their health drastically at least separates them from zealots and means that tosses can't just mass adepts so easily. They will become glass cannon harass units, and given that units like the reaper, hellion, and mutas all exist (units that suck in straight up fights but are made to harass workers) there's no reason why the adept can't be molded to fit this role, particularly if the other races are also getting nerfed. Remember that adepts are only 25 gas and can be warped in; there's no reason for them to be so powerful. Warp prism - Reduce pick up range Warp prisms allow tosses to execute harasses without losing any units. Essentially it's similar to how tankivac makes zvt miserable; terrans can harass them for free and are at no risk of losing the tank or the medivac. Relative to what the defender has to do to stop warp prism harass, it is far too easy to execute this. (late edit: Perhaps changing warp prism to something like 40 shields/160 health could be a nerf, or even something like 10 shields/190 health. This means that warp prisms start taking hull damage earlier which means the harass has to eventually end. At 100 shields coupled with how fast shields regen out of combat, it's too easy for tosses to harass over and over and never be in any danger of losing units or the warp prism) Mothership core - Alter photon overcharge into a spell that instead temporarily increases the attack speed of units and buildings near the targeted pylon MSC can defend all minor harasses with just 50 energy and pylons that you have to make anyway. But terrans need to make turrets and leave a healthy amount of marines at home, and zergs need to make spores. Toss almost never make cannons, and those extra minerals saved lead to toss getting an early 3rd. Toss is the only race that can't die to cheesy all ins because of PO (while cheesy all ins shouldn't exist in general, it is BS that terrans and zergs can die to cheeses while tosses can't). The change means that tosses can't stonewall all minor harasses and early all ins without dedicating actual resources, but the change actually makes them better at holding mid-lategame attacks which tosses did have some trouble with in pvz (ravagers and lurkers). While a lot of people will cry out that I'm bad at the game, git gud, etc., please notice that nearly all of these changes are to make it not as easy to harass and kill workers. I am also not favoring any race; all 3 races are getting notable nerfs. These changes were intended to help slow down the pace of the game and strike a better balance between executing harasses vs defending harasses. I've won many games where I did an easy harass, and it simply shouldn't happen. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On July 30 2016 23:02 IMPrime wrote: Personally I would make a lot of sweeping changes. Essentially, things that have too much combat power/durability for their mobility and cost need to be nerfed (liberator, adept, etc.). Things that make it too easy to harass and kill workers. There is absolutely nothing fun in not paying attention to your mini map for 3 seconds and then having half your worker line die. In general, defending harasses is so much harder than executing them (unless you're protoss, then MSC beats every small harass). While win rates may be becoming more and more even, the game is simply too stressful to be fun. For example, while tankivac is not problematic in tvp, protoss has so much bullshit that you need tankivac to even have a chance in the mu, and tankivac is ruining tvt and is making zvt annoying as well. If you scale down on all the obvious bullshit things, you can also nerf things that are too strong defensively (like MSC and to an extent queens). The important thing to note is that while pros have gotten good at dealing with most of the BS, it is not fun to play against these things that are just instant win buttons if you aren't paying attention for a few seconds to your mini map. For example, in early HotS hellbats were nerfed in that they took up 4 cargo space in a medivac instead of 2. While pros were getting better at defending hellbat drops, it was simply ridiculous that 4 hellbats could fall out and your worker line would immediately evaporate if you weren't paying attention. Widow Mine - Cannot lock on to workers (workers can still die in the splash damage) While pros generally don't have trouble not losing that many workers to widow mines, it is still simply annoying to deal with them, particularly since widow mines don't trigger any warnings until half of your workers are gone. It forces opponents to get detection very early because of how quickly widow mines can come out. Compare that to BW vultures where spider mines needed to be researched (and if you rushed out mines, you would have shitty slow vultures, so getting the speed upgrade on top of that would delay any spider mine rushes further), plus spider mines don't trigger on workers. Vultures' basic attack killed workers quickly anyway, but they really needed both upgrades to be at full strength, so not only did it take awhile to get to that point, it was a big commitment to do so. They also die pretty quickly to cannons/dragoons and mutas could chase them away. Siege Tank - remove tankivac from the game, gain bonus damage to shields (on top of bonus damage to armored, unless this actually can't be programmed, in which case just buff the damage slightly). Medivac - Afterburners must be researched. It gives too much mobility to the terran army in the midgame, and it makes it too easy to do damage in drops and then get away with most of your units. If terran's lategame gets significant buffs (the thor and BC are totally useless, for example) then you could probably remove afterburners entirely. If you keep terran's lategame units shit you need to make medivacs lategame fast so terrans can actually move around the toss and zerg super armies which tend to be fairly immobile, as terrans have severe issues dealing with toss and zerg lategame. Liberator - Defender mode must be researched. Again, pros don't lose much (photon overcharge is broken, zergs are getting mass queens, and terrans can make 1 viking quickly), but it is simply a BS thing to deal with. While they still will own mutas, if their ground attack must be researched, making liberators will come with an actual cost and you can't just make a bunch of them without actually scouting. Ravager - Roach warren must be morphed into a new building (like how hydralisk den must be upgraded into lurker den) before you can morph in ravagers. Being able to kill forcefields has forced protoss to have severely bullshit units/mechanics of their own, as in WoL and HotS tosses were basically forced to rely on forcefields to not instantly die in the earlygame (photon overcharge definitely helped in HotS though) and ravagers throw that out the window with how early they can be made. With tankivac removed they will also kill every terran unless he just rushes stim every game, thus ravagers get nerfed. Ultralisk - Ultralisk armor upgrade only gives +2 def instead of +4 (would be 6 armor fully upgraded), but their base HP is increased to 650. They completely own terrans but are useless against toss. This change means they don't completely own marines and marauders, and makes them slightly less shitty against immortals. It also makes them slightly better against ghost snipe too. Queen - revert range buff If the other races are getting weaker at harass, the queen would become too good at stonewalling harass. For example, with medivacs needing to research afterburners, a couple of queens will easily stop a drop while taking nearly zero losses. Adept - Reduce to 40 shields and 40 health. They completely destroy pvt because they can just shade on top of marines and melt the army in seconds. They kill workers too quickly; even if you have defenses at home they are still guaranteed kills because they randomly have 150 total shields/health (literally the same as a damn zealot) and kill drones/probes in 2 hits (against terrans they mostly have only marines because of how their race is built, so if they don't have a ton of marines at home you just kill the marines and then all the scvs). It gives the protoss far too much freedom and map control because shade is so powerful. Adept harass with shade is so easy to execute relative to how difficult it is to deal with it. They've completely phased zealots out of the picture, and protosses are starting to make fewer and fewer of other units as well. People complain about terrans massing marines, but mass adepts are way worse. At least marines die to AoE and they can't teleport and they're absolute shit until you get stim. There are many ways to try and address these issues, but reducing their health drastically at least separates them from zealots and means that tosses can't just mass adepts so easily. They will become glass cannon harass units, and given that units like the reaper, hellion, and mutas all exist (units that suck in straight up fights but are made to harass workers) there's no reason why the adept can't be molded to fit this role, particularly if the other races are also getting nerfed. Remember that adepts are only 25 gas and can be warped in; there's no reason for them to be so powerful. Warp prism - Reduce pick up range Warp prisms allow tosses to execute harasses without losing any units. Essentially it's similar to how tankivac makes zvt miserable; terrans can harass them for free and are at no risk of losing the tank or the medivac. Relative to what the defender has to do to stop warp prism harass, it is far too easy to execute this. Mothership core - Alter photon overcharge into a spell that instead temporarily increases the attack speed of units near the targeted pylon MSC can defend all minor harasses with just 50 energy and pylons that you have to make anyway. But terrans need to make turrets and leave a healthy amount of marines at home, and zergs need to make spores. Toss almost never make cannons, and those extra minerals saved lead to toss getting an early 3rd. Toss is the only race that can't die to cheesy all ins because of PO (while cheesy all ins shouldn't exist in general, it is BS that terrans and zergs can die to cheeses while tosses can't). The change means that tosses can't stonewall all minor harasses and early all ins without dedicating actual resources, but the change actually makes them better at holding mid-lategame attacks which tosses did have some trouble with in pvz (ravagers and lurkers). While a lot of people will cry out that I'm bad at the game, git gud, etc., please notice that nearly all of these changes are to make it not as easy to harass and kill workers. I am also not favoring any race; all 3 races are getting notable nerfs. These changes were intended to help slow down the pace of the game and strike a better balance between executing harasses vs defending harasses. I've won many games where I did an easy harass, and it simply shouldn't happen. I love all your suggested changes. | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
Swarm host cooldown reduced to 32 seconds. The unit doesn't seem any play because locust downtime is too low. Reducing (but not removing) the vulnerability period might help. Broodlord range reduced to 10 There was no reason for this unit to get such a significant range buff, it directly enables the mass broodlord/viper/infestor static-d deathball, which is one of the most cancerous compositions in the game. Tempest supply up to 6 Building a few tempests for poking is fine. Massing them behind an uncrackable wall of static-d and storms is not. Mass air is too strong in general and needs to be toned down. Liberator range removed Without the upgrade this is actually a pretty interesting positional unit, since it has less range than most units that fit the archetype, but can abuse terrain (since it's flying) to compensate. With the upgrade that mostly goes out the window. It's a tad too strong in general and with other races receiving lategame nerfs, needs to be weaker. Cyclone gains +1 lock-on range with hi-sec auto-tracking It's a poking/sniping unit. This change makes it better in that role in the midgame, while giving an underused upgrade more utility. Plus it fits thematically. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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JackONeill
861 Posts
TERRAN - medivac : during afterburners, every attack deals 1.5x more damage to the medivac Nerfs doom drops and YOLO drops - reaper : reaper grenade doesn't deal damage, just a stun/bounce effect The full micro potential, without the abuse - Widow mine : can't target workers Kind of a no brainer - Vikings : able to land and take off while moving, bio tag when landed (to be coherent with hellbat) A little versatility for the viking - Thor : 150/150 upgrade, takes a while to research, armory required, allows the thor to attack ground and air simultaneously Thor will finally be strong in late game to deal with a multitude of threats - cyclone : 2 population, 150 HP, damage upgrade removed, max lock on range brought down to 12 range from 15. Trains quicker, but still requires tech lab Cyclone will become the mech footman it was ment to be - ghost : cost from 200/100 to 50/150 Synergizes better with bio - tank : remove tankivac, damage from 35+15 to 40+20. Unsieged damage from 15+10 to 15+15. No brainer too - liberator : AG damage reduced to 65. Range upgrade removed. Making the liberator less of the ultimate terran weapon ZERG - queen : revert range buff, transfusion energy cost increased to 75 Mass queens => snowball ultra transfuses in late game is stupid - ravager : ravager den required (T1, 50/50 cost). Able to shoot air with auto attack, auto attack damage from 16 to 14. Bile damage reduced to 40 flat To compensate for the queen nerf, giving zerg a versatile unit that can finally give zerg options to deal with drops - ultra : chitinous from +4 to +2, health from 500 to 600 No brainer - nydus : can attack the nydus during the initial animation if detection is available No brainer - SH : complete rework. 150/150, 3 population, moves as fast as a roach without speed. Can build scourges for 10 minerals. Just like a reaver, it can store scourges (up to 4). Scourges have limited life spawn, 40 HPs, move at mutalisk speed, but deal 40 damage (+10 vs light) AoE damage on impact. SH will be the true zerg AA in mid/late game, instead of a gimmicky harass tool - viper : parasitic bomb removed. Abduct can't target massive. PB was a terrible design to begin with. Indirect buff to the battlecruiser - infestor : HPs up to 120 Will make them less snipable by bio - broodlord : 10 range instead of 11 no brainer PROTOSS - prism : pickup range decreased to 2 no brainer - adepts : twilight required. 100 hp 60 shield. Shade ability does not give vision, cooldown start at the end of the shading. Shade duration from 7 to 4 seconds. No brainer - photon overcharge : reworked. Overcharge targets a pylon, for 50 energy. The pylon gains the ability to heal shields like a medivac, with 7 range, for 15 seconds. No energy limitation. Can be targeted/microed. Can target buildings to protect critical tech structures. Non stackable on a single unit/building. Heals shield at medivac heal rate. Will make protoss defense more fair. You'll need to have units in place, but an overcharge can help your hold, or heal your army between two engages - tempest : 6 supply, 10 range, attack speed x1.5, 200/150 HPs No brainer. With the liberator nerf, tempest will be much better at killing liberators, but much less massable and abusive with the range - revelation : only applies to a single non massive unit. Gives the protoss vision what the unit sees, plus detection. Opponent still has a visual effect marking the revealed unit. Not sure about this one, but it seems much more elegant that simply 60 sec reveal on a whole army | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24233 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 31 2016 01:16 [PkF] Wire wrote: Yeah let's have everyone say what he thinks should or should not be in the game without taking even slightly what DK said in the last community update (their stance -> slow and few changes and let the meta evolve, which I tend to agree with in the current state of the game modulo negligible things). As for me I think we should go back to WoL with projectile fungal and 4 range phoenix. Congrats boys, we're being very productive. While i don't think these big posts which show every change someone would do are productive at all, at the same time i think it's still better to show your disappointment with blizzard's approach than being completely quiet about it because DK said blizzard doesn't want to work on sc2 because reasons. I am super happy about the idea of community updates, but the execution of it is rather meaningless atm. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3453 Posts
On July 31 2016 01:16 [PkF] Wire wrote: Yeah let's have everyone say what he thinks should or should not be in the game without taking even slightly what DK said in the last community update (their stance -> slow and few changes and let the meta evolve, which I tend to agree with in the current state of the game modulo negligible things). As for me I think we should go back to WoL with projectile fungal and 4 range phoenix. Congrats boys, we're being very productive. I agree with David Kim's approach from a pure balance approach, but I strongly think that this should not prevent design changes that better the game, just because it's not a horrible meta currently. Keep on improving the game, if balance is an issue, give credit to the players that they can solve it, before changing numbers which would go against said design. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 31 2016 01:53 ejozl wrote: I agree with David Kim's approach from a pure balance approach, but I strongly think that this should not prevent design changes that better the game, just because it's not a horrible meta currently. Keep on improving the game, if balance is an issue, give credit to the players that they can solve it, before changing numbers which would go against said design. Their approach is this: Hey sc2 is kinda good atm, don't do anything because we might fuck it up badly. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On July 30 2016 02:35 blade55555 wrote: I would love it if flying tanks were removed. I feel like it would make ling/bane better then it is now. My only concern with it is siege tanks being shit in tvz. Not sure if that will happen, but that is my only concern. I don't want that option to be removed, but we shall see. Tankivacs need to go, the Viper needs a remake so it doesn't hard counter Siege Tanks with every other spell, and Siege Tanks need their damage from early WOL back, 60 damage to all targets. On July 31 2016 01:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: Their approach is this: Hey sc2 is kinda good atm, don't do anything because we might fuck it up badly. Well said. When are we going to get a design team that knows how to actually improve this game? | ||
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coolman123123
146 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 31 2016 02:47 coolman123123 wrote: They still just don't get it. It's not about balance patches it's about occasionally experimenting with design changes on units that are not working out. They don't even seem to consider design changes and it almost leads me to believe there will be another expansion. Either way I guess they are fine with watching their player base dwindle as they refuse to makes significant changes to the game. This is the real problem! Design changes, changes which actually make the game more fun, changes which remove past bandaid fixes, etc | ||
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Tanked1
3 Posts
On July 30 2016 23:02 IMPrime wrote: Personally I would make a lot of sweeping changes. Essentially, things that have too much combat power/durability for their mobility and cost need to be nerfed (liberator, adept, etc.). Things that make it too easy to harass and kill workers. There is absolutely nothing fun in not paying attention to your mini map for 3 seconds and then having half your worker line die. In general, defending harasses is so much harder than executing them (unless you're protoss, then MSC beats every small harass). While win rates may be becoming more and more even, the game is simply too stressful to be fun. For example, while tankivac is not problematic in tvp, protoss has so much bullshit that you need tankivac to even have a chance in the mu, and tankivac is ruining tvt and is making zvt annoying as well. If you scale down on all the obvious bullshit things, you can also nerf things that are too strong defensively (like MSC and to an extent queens). The important thing to note is that while pros have gotten good at dealing with most of the BS, it is not fun to play against these things that are just instant win buttons if you aren't paying attention for a few seconds to your mini map. For example, in early HotS hellbats were nerfed in that they took up 4 cargo space in a medivac instead of 2. While pros were getting better at defending hellbat drops, it was simply ridiculous that 4 hellbats could fall out and your worker line would immediately evaporate if you weren't paying attention. Widow Mine - Cannot lock on to workers (workers can still die in the splash damage) While pros generally don't have trouble not losing that many workers to widow mines, it is still simply annoying to deal with them, particularly since widow mines don't trigger any warnings until half of your workers are gone. It forces opponents to get detection very early because of how quickly widow mines can come out. Compare that to BW vultures where spider mines needed to be researched (and if you rushed out mines, you would have shitty slow vultures, so getting the speed upgrade on top of that would delay any spider mine rushes further), plus spider mines don't trigger on workers. Vultures' basic attack killed workers quickly anyway, but they really needed both upgrades to be at full strength, so not only did it take awhile to get to that point, it was a big commitment to do so. They also die pretty quickly to cannons/dragoons and mutas could chase them away. Siege Tank - remove tankivac from the game, gain bonus damage to shields (on top of bonus damage to armored, unless this actually can't be programmed, in which case just buff the damage slightly). Medivac - Afterburners must be researched. It gives too much mobility to the terran army in the midgame, and it makes it too easy to do damage in drops and then get away with most of your units. If terran's lategame gets significant buffs (the thor and BC are totally useless, for example) then you could probably remove afterburners entirely. If you keep terran's lategame units shit you need to make medivacs lategame fast so terrans can actually move around the toss and zerg super armies which tend to be fairly immobile, as terrans have severe issues dealing with toss and zerg lategame. Liberator - Defender mode must be researched. Again, pros don't lose much (photon overcharge is broken, zergs are getting mass queens, and terrans can make 1 viking quickly), but it is simply a BS thing to deal with. While they still will own mutas, if their ground attack must be researched, making liberators will come with an actual cost and you can't just make a bunch of them without actually scouting. Ravager - Roach warren must be morphed into a new building (like how hydralisk den must be upgraded into lurker den) before you can morph in ravagers. Being able to kill forcefields has forced protoss to have severely bullshit units/mechanics of their own, as in WoL and HotS tosses were basically forced to rely on forcefields to not instantly die in the earlygame (photon overcharge definitely helped in HotS though) and ravagers throw that out the window with how early they can be made. With tankivac removed they will also kill every terran unless he just rushes stim every game, thus ravagers get nerfed. Ultralisk - Ultralisk armor upgrade only gives +2 def instead of +4 (would be 6 armor fully upgraded), but their base HP is increased to 650. They completely own terrans but are useless against toss. This change means they don't completely own marines and marauders, and makes them slightly less shitty against immortals. It also makes them slightly better against ghost snipe too. Queen - revert range buff If the other races are getting weaker at harass, the queen would become too good at stonewalling harass. For example, with medivacs needing to research afterburners, a couple of queens will easily stop a drop while taking nearly zero losses. Adept - Reduce to 40 shields and 40 health. They completely destroy pvt because they can just shade on top of marines and melt the army in seconds. They kill workers too quickly; even if you have defenses at home they are still guaranteed kills because they randomly have 150 total shields/health (literally the same as a damn zealot) and kill drones/probes in 2 hits (against terrans they mostly have only marines because of how their race is built, so if they don't have a ton of marines at home you just kill the marines and then all the scvs). It gives the protoss far too much freedom and map control because shade is so powerful. Adept harass with shade is so easy to execute relative to how difficult it is to deal with it. They've completely phased zealots out of the picture, and protosses are starting to make fewer and fewer of other units as well. People complain about terrans massing marines, but mass adepts are way worse. At least marines die to AoE and they can't teleport and they're absolute shit until you get stim. There are many ways to try and address these issues, but reducing their health drastically at least separates them from zealots and means that tosses can't just mass adepts so easily. They will become glass cannon harass units, and given that units like the reaper, hellion, and mutas all exist (units that suck in straight up fights but are made to harass workers) there's no reason why the adept can't be molded to fit this role, particularly if the other races are also getting nerfed. Remember that adepts are only 25 gas and can be warped in; there's no reason for them to be so powerful. Warp prism - Reduce pick up range Warp prisms allow tosses to execute harasses without losing any units. Essentially it's similar to how tankivac makes zvt miserable; terrans can harass them for free and are at no risk of losing the tank or the medivac. Relative to what the defender has to do to stop warp prism harass, it is far too easy to execute this. Mothership core - Alter photon overcharge into a spell that instead temporarily increases the attack speed of units near the targeted pylon MSC can defend all minor harasses with just 50 energy and pylons that you have to make anyway. But terrans need to make turrets and leave a healthy amount of marines at home, and zergs need to make spores. Toss almost never make cannons, and those extra minerals saved lead to toss getting an early 3rd. Toss is the only race that can't die to cheesy all ins because of PO (while cheesy all ins shouldn't exist in general, it is BS that terrans and zergs can die to cheeses while tosses can't). The change means that tosses can't stonewall all minor harasses and early all ins without dedicating actual resources, but the change actually makes them better at holding mid-lategame attacks which tosses did have some trouble with in pvz (ravagers and lurkers). While a lot of people will cry out that I'm bad at the game, git gud, etc., please notice that nearly all of these changes are to make it not as easy to harass and kill workers. I am also not favoring any race; all 3 races are getting notable nerfs. These changes were intended to help slow down the pace of the game and strike a better balance between executing harasses vs defending harasses. I've won many games where I did an easy harass, and it simply shouldn't happen. Excellent post! Blizzard needs to focus on getting underused units back into the game. I also agree 200% that worker harass is way too strong and unforgiving for the defender and makes for a lot UN-fun wins and losses. One additional suggestion: give BCs the ability to shoot and move at the same time, add +1 range. Maybe give a defensive matrix type spell. It's comical how bad terran are units are compared to protoss (with the exception of the over powered liberator). Bcs are simply too hard to keep alive to justify their cost, if you commit to a fight you cannot escape. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
These updates are the most meaningless garbage. At first the idea of the "insight" into their thoughts was interesting, but now it is just disappointing to see how they actually think, because how we make fun of Blizzard's thought process prior to these updates is actually the reality of how they operate. Sometimes it is best if you don't have anything to say, to just not say anything at all. Also, as a side note, I think listening to pro players to the degree they do is annoying. Pro players have a financial interest in a specific race. Granted you might say well they also have a vested interest in the overall strength of the game, but I still think with how human nature is and bias that exists you'll rarely find a pro that doesn't lean in some way toward their main race, especially when their livelihood depends on it. I think the most valued feedback should come from team coaches, and *gasp* the people that should be designing the game and understanding it at a higher level than even the players. For example, the NFL has a rule change committee that looks at issues. They might go to the players to get some opinions and feedback or test out a rule, but ultimately they are watching and studying the game to make those changes because the players are bias(of course the defense wants certain rule changes, and the offensive players want different changes). If Blizzard is really not capable of trusting their designers and internal testers to make changes good for the game then they should think about hiring pro players that understand the game at the highest level, pay them a salary that makes it worth it for them to basically quit playing pro and instead become a health of the game tester/idea person, and use those people and remove the bias toward a certain race. That is if you think the pro players are the most capable of providing that feedback, otherwise we'll keep getting these updates: "We talked to a protoss player and he thought this, then we talked to a Terran player and he thought that, so we'll do nothing." | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On July 31 2016 02:28 BronzeKnee wrote: Well said. When are we going to get a design team that knows how to actually improve this game? I already said it in the other thread, but if you think the issue here that they have no idea then you're delusional. The reality is that currently, there is no financial incentive for them to do any big changes. They make big changes and then what? People keep playing? Where's the money coming from? This might change with microtransactions. No guarantee of course, but way more likely than currently. | ||
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