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Germany913 Posts
Community Summit
We had our biggest community summit this week lasting two full days. The first day included around thirteen hours of discussions, hanging out, and eating food, and the second day was a full day of working with discussions and feedback. We wanted to first extend a massive ‘thank you’ to everyone who came out, especially the players and influencers who had to fly to Valencia right away for Dreamhack this weekend. We had many discussions across a wide variety of topics including esports, what should come next for StarCraft, the current state of the game, and ideas on how to generally improve the Starcraft 2 game going forward.
There was a massive amount of information, and we will definitely have more info to share across these fronts as we work through the various feedback, suggestions, and ideas that were generated at this event.
Map Improvements
The new maps have definitely been a big topic within the community recently, so we also took the time to work through some current map improvements. Since we not only had two of the top mapmakers in the world, Jacky and Avex, but also the GSL partners who have been gauging and judging maps for years on site, we took the time to drill down into how we can make each of the new maps better. Below we’d like to discuss changes we came to regarding two of the maps.
Galactic Process
The two main changes here that we’ve came up with were adding the destructible rocks on the backdoor paths, but at a much farther distance than where they used to be so that it’s not so easy for the defender to just check if the rocks are being broken. The majority of the map related influencers agreed that the rock removal was good, due to it being so easy to watch over the rocks + there’s very little reason to utilize that attack path. However, due to early game defenses being a bit more difficult to due this change, a potentially better solution that was proposed was to add the rocks back, but much further away from the natural expansion.
The other change to this map was to add an unpathable area near the natural expansion area to make one of the paths narrower, which would make early game defense a bit easier.
If you guys agree with these two changes, we will work towards implementing these changes as soon as possible.
Dasan Station
The main change that we arrived at for this map was to add a path that is rocked off by rocks that players can use to go between the outer parts of the map towards the center parts of the map. The reason is that the biggest downside currently seems to be if the army is out of position, it’s too difficult to get back in position, and it takes too long to mine out the high yield base before it’s possible to move back and forth.
Unless the community has substantial reason against this change, we’ll look to get this added in as well.
Balance
Balance discussions seemed to indicated that the general consensus is that balance is much better than it has been in the past. Still, there were two points which were of intense focus during the summit.
There was a heavy emphasis on how we should not overreact with changes because even pros don’t know what the exact effects of the changes are.
These discussions were very interesting, because we noticed that even when someone started a conversation saying ‘X’ is a huge problem, others might ask the person how certain he or she is, and that person often replied by saying something like “yeah I really don’t know for certain right now.”
Nerf Warp Prism drops by reducing Warp Prism HP/Shield
- Surprisingly, this was the only unanimous potential change that came up.
- The reasoning for this change (instead of something like speed) was to allow the players who use Warp Prisms really well to be able to continue using them at a strong state, whereas players who aren’t as efficient with the Warp Prism micro should have a bit more trouble being successful with drops after a change like this.
Interestingly, some of those who attended have reached out to say that the Queen buff is working so well that a Warp Prism change may not be necessary from the ZvP angle. Regardless of whether the change is necessary, this just reinforces our belief that we need more time to gauge the exact effects of recent patches before we make further changes to related things.
We’ll continue to discuss the topics of the summit in the coming weeks, but we wanted to get these discussions in front of you right away as they are more immediately relevant. Please let us know your feedback, and thank you!
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I don't know, I think now you shouldn't tinker with the maps, since I wanna see what players come up with. Innovation on maps is reduced if things change around too much. Although if a change is only an improvement, then I'm certainly open to it.
Right now the only thing that really needs change IMO, is the pathing on New Gettisberg with the air blockers.
I'm pretty bored by all this balance discussion, I want to see some changes that can improve the matchups rather than win % adjustments.
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The point of a community summit shouldn't be to talk about balance at all. They should talk about the game design, the actual interactions in the game, no matter if it is technically balanced or not.
Most people don't care about balance, they will think it is balance (to feel better), but in the end it's mostly the design choices which either make the game feel rewarding to play or not.
You can get a balanced game with lots and lots of "bad" gameplay ineteractions. That is where the discussion should be, not if the balance numbers work out.
Disappointed.
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Nice feedback. And I agree that balance is really acceptable now and that we need to give the queen patch some time.
Look into the liberators circles on low settings though.
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Personally I think the learning curve is already too steep and making changes to the warp prism like proposed will only make it worse. In general, the game is too unforgiving for new players or casual players and it's worrisome that the balance team is still trying to make it steeper.
It's impossible to recruit friends to play sc2 because new players are simply so bad. It's not fun to get your scvs wiped out in 2 seconds because a good player had the perfect harass unit and could micro the crap out of it. I really think the community is suffering because the game had turned away casual players from everything except the arcade. My 2 cents
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Blizzard hypes about a great summit that ends up proposing a minor possible change. Meh. I think someone said in Reddit that they discussed huge changes on the summit. What happened?
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FireCake said on stream once that sc2 would get a lot easier to get into with tutorial videos for build orders, units, etc that would be accessible in game, like there is in LoL. I think it's a very good idea that would help immensely.
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Dasan Station
"The main change that we arrived at for this map was to add a path that is rocked off by rocks"
Rocked off by Rocks.
Sounds good
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On July 16 2016 03:04 GGzerG wrote:
Dasan Station
"The main change that we arrived at for this map was to add a path that is rocked off by rocks"
Rocked off by Rocks.
Sounds good
didn't even bother reading the part on Dasan Station, the map is just not salvageable
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37024 Posts
On July 16 2016 03:04 GGzerG wrote:
Dasan Station
"The main change that we arrived at for this map was to add a path that is rocked off by rocks"
Rocked off by Rocks.
Sounds good
lol, yeah, I noticed that too.
I wonder if they talked about ultras... Good freaking gosh, I hate TvZ late-game...
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What an underwhelming and dissapointing summit.
When 90% of our community is pissed off and annoyed by balance and design issues and only 1 thing can be discussed as a potential issue, then i just think to myself what is the actual point of a community summit.
I said last time, the people that came out of the last community summit that said stuff like "blizzard are going to release an incredible game with many changes coming to the near future. They are going to be as active as ever before and really redesign issues and balance flaws that are currently in the game". Those things did not really happen, 3 balance changes that have been rather minimal to the game since release (nearly a year ago) and a couple of UI changes with bug fixes and a new ladder revamp. Not really my idea of "active" or "balancing and creating great design to the gameplay and its units".
Once again people came out of the summit saying that blizzard have so many huge changes planned and design and balance fixes to the game. And this is all that they announce. Disgusting really, those people that come out and say that stuff should be ashamed. I prefer honesty, i prefer someone that can come out of the summit and say it as it is such as: "discussions were made about the game and its future, we talked about design and balance and unfortunately could only come up with 1 potential balance issue which was the warp prism hp/shields possibly being too much at the moment."
Now if the people came out and actually were just honest about the summit then i would be much happier, ovcourse i would be disappointing because i would of been hoping for some really cool and potentially brilliant ideas to help change the design and balance of certain units within the game that are quite clearly an issue at this moment. But to just basically be lied to and then find out from a community feedback thread is just so aggravating. Guess we are not going to have fixes to major problems to our gameplay once again.
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The warp prism is a unit that has suffered from power creep and should be pulled back I think. I don't know if an hp nerf is the way to go about it though.
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Germany913 Posts
On July 16 2016 03:01 petro1987 wrote:
Blizzard hypes about a great summit that ends up proposing a minor possible change. Meh. I think someone said in Reddit that they discussed huge changes on the summit. What happened?
Apparently they will release the bigger changes at a later point, probably GamesCom / BlizzCon. Today they only revealed the minor changes they want to deploy very soon (basically like every community update).
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It was pretty obvious from the Map Test tournament that movements on Dasan were absurdly awkward, and I don't think adding rocks does enough to mitigatethat . I'm not sure where they'd add the rocks tbf, so we'll see.
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I do not even know what to say.
It is like 10 engineers are locked in a room for 2 days discussing the engine problems of a car and then concluding that the car's default colour should be changed from light blue to dark blue.
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On July 16 2016 03:10 Finnz wrote:
What an underwhelming and dissapointing summit.
When 90% of our community is pissed off and annoyed by balance and design issues and only 1 thing can be discussed as a potential issue, then i just think to myself what is the actual point of a community summit.
Well, according to people who went, they discussed a whole boat load of things for the future. DK only brought up one of those things today as they are ready to move forward with it already.
Give it time, I have my doubts as well, but being negative doesn't help whatsoever.
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I dunno if it's a PR fail or a failure of the community summit, but seriously, after inviting so many people :
On July 16 2016 03:17 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
It is like 10 engineers are locked in a room for 2 days discussing the engine problems of a car and then concluding that the cars default colour should be changed from light blue to dark blue.
This exactly.
It's like if the avengers all met to decide wether they should fight loki or not, and end up deciding that the seat of the toilets should be left up because there's a majority of guys.
Let's hear it for :
- mech viability
- cyclone
- thor
- SH
- BC
- viper
- terran diversity
- no zerg in the GSL ro 16 but only one terran in the DH ro16
- adept shade
- liberator's AG
Thanks once again DK !
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"some of those who attended have reached out to say that the Queen buff is working so well that a Warp Prism change may not be necessary from the ZvP angle."
Glad ZvP will be fine, unlike TvP. But i guess thats okay. Instead of reverting the queenrange and keeping the "stimmed" spore and reduce the warprism's health so all races benefit from it would be too much logic. The late game for zerg has been buffed even more with the range, killed a lot of builds for terran. But thats seems fine. Warprims pickup range is still stupid and is incredible annoying for the defender and feels gimmicky. The warprism is already a fast unit on its own to be annoying enough, for JUST MINERALS.
*Tempest still 4 supply
*nydus that cant be killed
*vipers hardcounter the counter to vipers
*adept shade cooldown starts directly, and not after the ability is done like with every other unit in the game
*after the shade it resets the attack timer as well
*Stasis ward, a free spell, doesnt expire in the game.
*mech still crap
*etc. etc.
8 Months since the release of LOTV, and we still discussing the same things over and over again.
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there are a lot of things to do, but plz take priority on reaper nade and pylon shooting buildings, both ruins game experience. (TvT early game and TvP pylons under ramp)
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I bet all that happend in that summit was laughing at people that still expect them to make SC2 a good game, and expending some of that Overwatch money into pizza and beer.
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Too much talk about maps. Always want exciting new stuff. Always want random stuff. Always new... etc. Take a lesson from BW. People play mostly FS because it is the most standard map with the lest bullshit. Not huge forced macro map, not small rush map. People want an arena that is balanced so the players can display their skill. What stands out is the cool play, micro and strategies not abusing some factors for specific map that will be history after the map gets change.
Just how many millennia will it take them to get this?
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Doesn't LoL/Dota use the same map for years and years? They really shouldn't spend so much time on them. Yes, New maps are always welcome, but why remove the proven and good maps in the progress?
That aside, after a 2 day summit, only one proposed change only sounds pretty underwhelming.
From another forum:
We're excited about the new ladder rollout.
We had a summit, heard feedback on current problems, and have some neat ideas of how to cover up those problems with gimmicks, harassment and massive FU damage. We'll release more details soon.
In the meantime we're watching XYZ MU closely. We're wondering about something, and will keep watching stuff in the meantime. Just like every other update.
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Make the units dynamic and fun and the balance will come. Design a fun and engaging game with units that allow players to micro and do cool things with and that will create balance.
They are trying way to hard to constantly make small
balance tweaks to micromanage the balance in the game instead of looking at the big picture. Their job is to create a fun game and give the players the tools to be successful.
Win or lose in BW there were so many fun unit interactions. SC2 is so predetermined. If you have the wrong units at the wrong time you lose no matter how creative or good your micro is. Way to much splash damage, poor spell casters, to many hard counters. I'm not saying a marine or stalker should beat anything in the game but it just isn't fun where one wrong scout or choice you know you are doomed.
I'd rather play a really fun imbalanced game than a perfectly balanced game that is boring or predictable. This update shows that they don't have a clue, which is sad that after this many years and 2 expansions this is where the game is. SC2 and D3 were both massively disappointing.
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starcraft summit summary:
Nerf Warp Prism drops by reducing Warp Prism HP/Shield
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These discussions were very interesting, because we noticed that even when someone started a conversation saying ‘X’ is a huge problem, others might ask the person how certain he or she is, and that person often replied by saying something like “yeah I really don’t know for certain right now.”
... they invited people who just wanted a free trip, delicious food and some holidays. they did nothing.
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On July 16 2016 03:10 TheWinks wrote:
The warp prism is a unit that has suffered from power creep and should be pulled back I think. I don't know if an hp nerf is the way to go about it though.
Blizzard keeps doing this: they determine that a unit creates "good dynamics" so they decide to promote it by giving it a lot of power and flexibility. And then there is power creep and the unit becomes obnoxiously strong, except that people become used to it and stop noticing there is a problem.
I'm not some sort of genius, but when Blizzard changed the warp prism pick-up, I counted the number of buffs they had received throughout the years, I noticed the compounding survivability increases (shields, speed, pick-up) and I made a number of posts on TL wondering why didn't Blizzard compensate for the pick-up increase by a HP decrease? It just seems obvious to me. But for Blizzard it is almost like any change to a unit is costly, as if they have to go through 10 designer and Q&A meetings for anything, so they seem to never be capable of making common sense changes when units have bad tuning, even during beta when they should have the leeway to.
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"These discussions were very interesting, because we noticed that even when someone started a conversation saying ‘X’ is a huge problem, others might ask the person how certain he or she is, and that person often replied by saying something like “yeah I really don’t know for certain right now.”"
so awkward
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 16 2016 05:04 Nazara wrote:Doesn't LoL/Dota use the same map for years and years? They really shouldn't spend so much time on them. Yes, New maps are always welcome, but why remove the proven and good maps in the progress? That aside, after a 2 day summit, only one proposed change only sounds pretty underwhelming. From another forum: Show nested quote +We're excited about the new ladder rollout.
We had a summit, heard feedback on current problems, and have some neat ideas of how to cover up those problems with gimmicks, harassment and massive FU damage. We'll release more details soon.
In the meantime we're watching XYZ MU closely. We're wondering about something, and will keep watching stuff in the meantime. Just like every other update.
LoL/Dota keep the game interesting by constantly rebalancing/redesigning champs/heroes and items within the game. SC2 uses maps to provide variety by making certain strategies stronger/weaker. It's an important part of keeping the game interesting.
Re: people bitching about the community summit. Isn't it obvious that the only things from the summit they are prepared to talk about right now are the immediate influences on the current ladder season? Expect the feedback from the summit to gradually drip out and/or manifest in off-season changes to SC2. For now yall need a chillpill.
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yeah of course they're not going to reveal things from the community summit now, they're going to wait a bit
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So instead of fixing that tanks can't move across the middle of the map they want to make it so that nothing can move across the middle of the map?
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On July 16 2016 05:52 Solar424 wrote:
So instead of fixing that tanks can't move across the middle of the map
maybe because that has been fixed on the day of release.... 
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On July 16 2016 04:14 JackONeill wrote:I dunno if it's a PR fail or a failure of the community summit, but seriously, after inviting so many people : Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 03:17 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
It is like 10 engineers are locked in a room for 2 days discussing the engine problems of a car and then concluding that the cars default colour should be changed from light blue to dark blue. This exactly. It's like if the avengers all met to decide wether they should fight loki or not, and end up deciding that the seat of the toilets should be left up because there's a majority of guys. Let's hear it for : - mech viability - cyclone - thor - SH - BC - viper - terran diversity - no zerg in the GSL ro 16 but only one terran in the DH ro16 - adept shade - liberator's AG Thanks once again DK !
Very good post
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On July 16 2016 03:17 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
It is like 10 engineers are locked in a room for 2 days discussing the engine problems of a car and then concluding that the cars default colour should be changed from light blue to dark blue.
Lol, this was quite unexpected, but still on point. That's EXACTLY how i've been feeling for like what ? too many years...
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We're starting to see the balance team move into a sort of stagnant cycle of 1. 80% of the updates being either about maps or defending their credentials on how they are doing their job 2. Half hearted weak balance changes that do nothing to promote diversity or new strategies.
Warp Prisms are problematic, but what's more problematic is everything is just getting nerfed instead of redesigned or tweaked from a design stand point to produce not just balanced games (which is important) but also BETTER games. Maintaining the status quo is what's going to accelerate this game to the grave faster then it already is.
So tanks not being powerful on the ground (a moved by Protoss armies 5 years later) and Vipers hard countering them late game but gimmicky tankivacs pretty much remain in the game to allow them viability instead of a direct buff to the unit itself...okaaay...go ahead and fill me in on the logic of this decision because it's baffled me since day 1 of the release. I knew the, "Wow new stuff" thing would fade away with tankivacs and would be replaced with, "This is fucking the game up" pretty much replacing it.
Or adept shade being a zero risk high reward shit fest ability that let's a Protoss army split itself into 3 different mineral lines at once? Or constant scouting and vision with zero risk to the unit itself?
Or Tempests being massable while Cyclones are not?
Or Swarm Hosts being borderline useless unless your Railgan or Rogue?
Or mech still being borderline unviable unless you turtle cancer mass sky army?
Or Infestors/Ghosts/Ravens still being bad or mediocre while the High Templar is built in every match up standard?
I don't know, seems to me like at this point David Kim is more interested in maintaining mediocrity instead of taking pride in his job and trying to push the envelope. They need some new blood on the balance team. David is just way too comfortable.
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This reads like a bunch of guy getting drunk after a long time and having a laugh where a couple of points are brought up.
I'm done trying to point out what so many people for so long have been trying.
We need a new SC2 team. No other solution for the game.
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On July 16 2016 03:17 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
It is like 10 engineers are locked in a room for 2 days discussing the engine problems of a car and then concluding that the cars default colour should be changed from light blue to dark blue.
This so much.
The summit was only 2 days and they spent valuable time talking such minor things... I mean balance and maps are very important but I expected these people to discuss things they can't discuss any other week in a Community Feedback...
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United States2141 Posts
On July 16 2016 05:04 Nazara wrote:
Doesn't LoL/Dota use the same map for years and years? They really shouldn't spend so much time on them. Yes, New maps are always welcome, but why remove the proven and good maps in the progress?
opinions may vary... having only 1 map is one of my least favorite features of lol and dota, and is one of the main reasons i don't play either of them. and i really hate how ubiquitous fighting spirit is in bw, i kind of want it to be permanently retired even if it's a good balanced map.
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On July 16 2016 05:43 Plexa wrote:
Re: people bitching about the community summit. Isn't it obvious that the only things from the summit they are prepared to talk about right now are the immediate influences on the current ladder season? Expect the feedback from the summit to gradually drip out and/or manifest in off-season changes to SC2. For now yall need a chillpill.
They skipped a feedback update for the sake of the summit, I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected something more, especially with peopling hinting at ~big changes~ again.
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On July 16 2016 06:46 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 05:43 Plexa wrote:
Re: people bitching about the community summit. Isn't it obvious that the only things from the summit they are prepared to talk about right now are the immediate influences on the current ladder season? Expect the feedback from the summit to gradually drip out and/or manifest in off-season changes to SC2. For now yall need a chillpill. They skipped a feedback update for the sake of the summit, I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected something more, especially with peopling hinting at ~big changes~ again.
Any big changes (which were only hinted at by people at the summit, and not by Blizzard and thus can be considered unofficial) would have to wait for the off-season in any case. Also it takes time to process, evaluate and test feedback.
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On July 16 2016 03:18 Garemie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 03:10 Finnz wrote:
What an underwhelming and dissapointing summit.
When 90% of our community is pissed off and annoyed by balance and design issues and only 1 thing can be discussed as a potential issue, then i just think to myself what is the actual point of a community summit.
Well, according to people who went, they discussed a whole boat load of things for the future. DK only brought up one of those things today as they are ready to move forward with it already. Give it time, I have my doubts as well, but being negative doesn't help whatsoever.
Kinda agree, we have to wait and see. Still I'm pissed about the hype certain community figures generate about these events (it's not just SC2, but an overall social media tendency) when it's all hot air and we can wait for another year for anything to happen. Meanwhile we get a few missions, further microtransactions for co-op (*sigh*) and weird balance suggestions.
Stop bullshitting around and announce something when you can DELIVER something! Being overly positive about everything gives them the wrong idea.
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On July 16 2016 02:59 Tanked1 wrote:
Personally I think the learning curve is already too steep and making changes to the warp prism like proposed will only make it worse. In general, the game is too unforgiving for new players or casual players and it's worrisome that the balance team is still trying to make it steeper.
It's impossible to recruit friends to play sc2 because new players are simply so bad. It's not fun to get your scvs wiped out in 2 seconds because a good player had the perfect harass unit and could micro the crap out of it. I really think the community is suffering because the game had turned away casual players from everything except the arcade. My 2 cents
A valid point, but I think that's the nature of the game though. I don't play because I'm just not good enough and don't want to commit the time it takes to become half decent because that time is considerable. That applied even in wol, so a new change does nothing for me. Maybe there are people waiting for it to get just a little bit easier, but I don't know any. I just enjoy watching the pros play and admire their skill. Making the game harder makes it more fun to watch at least. That way the very best can separate themselves from the rest in more ways.
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On July 16 2016 04:52 Wrath wrote:
Too much talk about maps. Always want exciting new stuff. Always want random stuff. Always new... etc. Take a lesson from BW. People play mostly FS because it is the most standard map with the lest bullshit. Not huge forced macro map, not small rush map. People want an arena that is balanced so the players can display their skill. What stands out is the cool play, micro and strategies not abusing some factors for specific map that will be history after the map gets change.
Just how many millennia will it take them to get this?
Maps and players both contribute to a healthy metagame. If you think it's only one or the other that's important, then I suggest that others don't listen to you.
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Yet again this community already expecting patch days after summit happened...
I just don't get year after year the amount of tixicity and negativity is overwhelming for new players aswell... which is a huge part about it.
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Community gets and update and is disappointed that it isn't a comprehensive all encompassing document outlining all topics covered, timelines of action, apologies for prior bad design choices, and an invitation directly from David Kim who wants your specific help.
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On July 16 2016 08:45 IMSupervisor wrote:
Community gets and update and is disappointed that it isn't a comprehensive all encompassing document outlining all topics covered, timelines of action, apologies for prior bad design choices, and an invitation directly from David Kim who wants your specific help.
How do you justify this comment exactly given this update is pretty much the same thing as a regular community update and the (mind boggling) only thing they got on balance was Warp Prisms are too durable? O__o
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Nerf the warp prism so that it has 60 shield, 100 hp. This allows a widow mine to one shot a warp prism.
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On July 16 2016 08:48 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 08:45 IMSupervisor wrote:
Community gets and update and is disappointed that it isn't a comprehensive all encompassing document outlining all topics covered, timelines of action, apologies for prior bad design choices, and an invitation directly from David Kim who wants your specific help. How do you justify this comment exactly given this update is pretty much the same thing as a regular community update and the (mind boggling) only thing they got on balance was Warp Prisms are too durable? O__o
They said that warp prism was the only unanimous balance issue. That means not everyone agreed on what other balance issues are. Knowing that and taking the approach of letting the players figure it out means they aren't moving to address things random community people think are the real problems. I think they're doing a good job moving as deliberately slowly as they are.
Give it some time and we'll see what else was brought up the summit.
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Ok guys another balance update lets see: nothing about liberators, nothing about ultra 82 armor, but hey, what if we nerf warp prism, now that queens can snipe them all?
I lost all hope on you guys. I'm very disappointed. At least we're gonna get some ramp fixing I hope.
Seven blessings to all.
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On July 16 2016 03:17 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
It is like 10 engineers are locked in a room for 2 days discussing the engine problems of a car and then concluding that the car's default colour should be changed from light blue to dark blue.
this so much. Blizzard continues to avoid the real issues while simultaneously offer unnecessary band-aid fixes.
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I'm hoping they are adressing tempests and ultras soon.
don't know why they want to nerf warpprisms. Bad change imo.
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Glad they are thinking about a nerf to warp prisms. Their move speed is absolutely ridiculous @_@.
I would really love it if ultra armor was nerfed by one in exchange for a change to medivac boost in some way or form. But I think that medivac boost is one of the balance team's untouchables  .
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For all the people complaining about the summit "only talking about balance", I'm going to suggest that they didn't only talk about balance at the summit, but that balance and maps are what they wanted to mention in the community update. As non-disclosure agreements were involved in attending the summit, I would posit that Blizzard has even more more in store for the game but don't feel like publicly announcing things beyond balance and maps at this time.
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this is what you get when you put people ina room who are not programmers and game designers. Blizzard have never failed to deliver, everything they do is quality. what can a bunch of kids really say who just happen to press the buttons or the macros they set up for them really efficiently. I can imagine when they actually said, "whats wrong with the game" it was like the black lives matter movement when they were asked. "What do you want?" and not a quantifiable and measurable suggestion was made. As a game designer myself i could only wish to be given the chance to work at blizz, but even i have to admit i dont think im on that level
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On July 16 2016 14:03 beheamoth wrote:
this is what you get when you put people ina room who are not programmers and game designers. Blizzard have never failed to deliver, everything they do is quality. what can a bunch of kids really say who just happen to press the buttons or the macros they set up for them really efficiently. I can imagine when they actually said, "whats wrong with the game" it was like the black lives matter movement when they were asked. "What do you want?" and not a quantifiable and measurable suggestion was made. As a game designer myself i could only wish to be given the chance to work at blizz, but even i have to admit i dont think im on that level
Had a good laugh about that. Is that why so many players leave the game? Or that every new patch always (or mostly) brings bugfixes but at the same time introduce tons of other bugs (not also in SC 2 but also for their other games, like HS just had a new patch a few days ago followed by 2 (!) hotfixes that did exactly what i described) ? Or that the game is still poorly optimised?
Sure bugs can happen from time to time but if you call this quality than you have never seen real quality.
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On July 16 2016 04:38 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
"some of those who attended have reached out to say that the Queen buff is working so well that a Warp Prism change may not be necessary from the ZvP angle."
Glad ZvP will be fine, unlike TvP. But i guess thats okay. Instead of reverting the queenrange and keeping the "stimmed" spore and reduce the warprism's health so all races benefit from it would be too much logic. The late game for zerg has been buffed even more with the range, killed a lot of builds for terran. But thats seems fine. Warprims pickup range is still stupid and is incredible annoying for the defender and feels gimmicky. The warprism is already a fast unit on its own to be annoying enough, for JUST MINERALS.
*Tempest still 4 supply
*nydus that cant be killed
*vipers hardcounter the counter to vipers
*adept shade cooldown starts directly, and not after the ability is done like with every other unit in the game
*after the shade it resets the attack timer as well
*Stasis ward, a free spell, doesnt expire in the game.
*mech still crap
*etc. etc.
8 Months since the release of LOTV, and we still discussing the same things over and over again.
Pardon me but isn't Medivac Ignite Afterburners the same with regards to the cooldown starting as the ability is activated and not after it is over?
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It's impossible to recruit friends to play sc2 because new players are simply so bad. It's not fun to get your scvs wiped out in 2 seconds because a good player had the perfect harass unit and could micro the crap out of it. I really think the community is suffering because the game had turned away casual players from everything except the arcade. My 2 cents The question you should be asking is, why the system matches your "new player who is simply so bad" with a "good player with perfect harass and micro". There is matchmaking. if the new player is a scrub, he will be playing against other scrubs.
The question that I would ask is where the hell are tutorials? How do you expect people to learn using in-game sources?
Learn the game playing through campaign? Well, then there should be only 2 difficulty levels - normal and hard. In this day and age, a bad player will choose easy mode and still learn nothing.
Also, new player has no chance to learn basics of race other then one from the most recent expansion. If you want to learn basics of playing Terran, but only got interested in SC2 this year - sorry, you have to spend even more money to get Terran expansion etc.
Personally, I think the reason for the decline is the focus on micro and "cool moments ([...] come from worker harassment)".
Let's be honest, macro in SC2 doesn't take much speed or skill. To keep the skill ceiling high, focus has been moved to micro.
And while it works for top tier of play, where players have 2 seconds to spot Disruptor moving its Nova towards your army and those 2 seconds is enough to spot it on the minimap, center your view and move units away, in lower leagues, that is game ending damage.
The problem is that games end suddenly. 10-15 minutes of hard work, scouting, mind-games, harassing, trading etc. end in 5 second battle / skillshot spam from which you cannot recover and you know it's gg. Wins don't feel as rewarding and losses feel cheap and luck based.
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On July 16 2016 05:28 coolmiyo wrote:
starcraft summit summary:
Nerf Warp Prism drops by reducing Warp Prism HP/Shield
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These discussions were very interesting, because we noticed that even when someone started a conversation saying ‘X’ is a huge problem, others might ask the person how certain he or she is, and that person often replied by saying something like “yeah I really don’t know for certain right now.”
... they invited people who just wanted a free trip, delicious food and some holidays. they did nothing.
Unfortunately it does seem that is the case. I know people will give me shit for me saying i deserved an invite but...
I had a really good amount of topics/game balance/design that i could have contributed to a discussion with support for my arguments on things to be looked at that the player base wants fixed such as;
-8 armor ultra
-warp prism
-invincible nydus worm
-mech viability
-ling/bane/muta (reduce cost of burrow for burrow banes)
-tempest supply cost/stats issues
-air units of all 3 races in general being too dominant
-tankivac removal/tier 1 overlord drop removal/ravager to tier 2
-adept shades (make adept shade lose shields every time you shade to create a drawback to the ability)
-so many other things
Obviously if i were invited to a Community Summit like that i'd be able to back up my reasoning on why i think certain things are issues and i'd be able to propose multiple solutions to the issues. Rather than just say "yeah i really don't know for certain right now." Like why even invite these people?
I feel like i've been a contributor to the SC2 scene for a while and i'm one of the consistent SC2 streamers that has played 1000's of games of mech in every match-up and can articulate ideas well...pretty disappointed i was not invited yet others were.
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I think it would help if we can watch tournaments and other players live while playing in the main client. Just like DotA 2. We can watch our friends while they ladder but of course with delay so coaching and cheating will not be valid. SC2 Feels so alone imo, it would help a lot if we can watch other people's games at will so we can socialize more and guide one another. Its so hard to guide new players in SC2, The only way you can watch how they play is by downloading their replay or playing in a lobby. Its better if we can watch them while they ladder and watch tourneys ingame.
Sorry I can't explain it that well but people who play dota2 can understand, That way its easier for people to watch tournaments and its faster than loading twitch etc etc.
Also as stated by other posters, its very hard to teach new players as there are no guide that is accessible. I hope there is some database of "Basic" Build orders that people can follow so that they would not be lost, I've had many friends who were interested in playing SC2 Multiplayer but gave up because the basics were so hard to grasp.
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On July 16 2016 17:20 Ace1123 wrote:
I think it would help if we can watch tournaments and other players live while playing in the main client. Just like DotA 2. We can watch our friends while they ladder but of course with delay so coaching and cheating will not be valid. SC2 Feels so alone imo, it would help a lot if we can watch other people's games at will so we can socialize more and guide one another. Its so hard to guide new players in SC2, The only way you can watch how they play is by downloading their replay or playing in a lobby. Its better if we can watch them while they ladder and watch tourneys ingame.
Sorry I can't explain it that well but people who play dota2 can understand, That way its easier for people to watch tournaments and its faster than loading twitch etc etc.
Also as stated by other posters, its very hard to teach new players as there are no guide that is accessible. I hope there is some database of "Basic" Build orders that people can follow so that they would not be lost, I've had many friends who were interested in playing SC2 Multiplayer but gave up because the basics were so hard to grasp.
I've been wondering the same as well.
How does a free to play game have such superior spectator options than a 40 euro game that also markets itself as the most 'leet' competitive esport?
SC2 should have been the game innovating with the spectator experience instead of dota, but it seems the game just doesn't bring in enough revenue for blizz to care about such major changes.
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Nothing about mech... again. We can see less and less T in the foreign scene, why? Cause now if u play for fun,not to become pro,its so boring to play T,u dont have diversity of compositions, always the same open,only 1 and nerfed new unit in lotv (cyclone its a joke), etc etc.. playing T now its like having continuous Deja-Vu's.
Sorry4myEnglish
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Tempest HP's on supply ratio still over 100. Find a single unit that has more than 100 HPs per pop.
Hinty-dy hint hint : there's none. Because that would make them insanely powerfull and massable. Oh. Wait.
So glad this was adressed by the community summit. OH. WAIT.
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On July 16 2016 18:14 JackONeill wrote:
Tempest HP's on supply ratio still over 100. Find a single unit that has more than 100 HPs per pop.
Hinty-dy hint hint : there's none. Because that would make them insanely powerfull and massable. Oh. Wait.
So glad this was adressed by the community summit. OH. WAIT.
To be fair, high health (and to a smaller extent: fast attack speed) is the easiest way of normalizing a unit's battle performance when it has a long range attack. Tempests deal relatively low damage for their cost and it should be clear that something like double damage with half the hit points would make them much more powerful as they could destroy enemies before they can reach the tempest flock.
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On July 16 2016 20:12 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 18:14 JackONeill wrote:
Tempest HP's on supply ratio still over 100. Find a single unit that has more than 100 HPs per pop.
Hinty-dy hint hint : there's none. Because that would make them insanely powerfull and massable. Oh. Wait.
So glad this was adressed by the community summit. OH. WAIT. To be fair, high health (and to a smaller extent: fast attack speed) is the easiest way of normalizing a unit's battle performance when it has a long range attack. Tempests deal relatively low damage for their cost and it should be clear that something like double damage with half the hit points would make them much more powerful as they could destroy enemies before they can reach the tempest flock.
The problem isn't so much the tempest itself, but it's abusability when combined with other units.
Balance aside, it's just not fun at all to play against lategame P.
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15 range with the revelation makes them so abusive and punishing that the fact that they're massable (4pop), so beefy (450 hp) and has decent "I can kite" movespeed is just stupid. There is no army in the game that can beat mass tempests with storm, except for mass carriers maybe.
It wouldn't be a problem if it was so impossible to reach. Problem is, against mech, even if the terran player is agressive, your protoss opponent can easily add tempests to his composition and trade his ground units until he only masses tempests and storm. Really, tempests are the only and sole reason that mech doesn't work in TvP, because the immortal nerf effectively made mech decent.
Slight rework of the cyclone and the tempest would allow for mech to be very viable. Maybe make tempest more of a fighting unit, with 10 range, faster attack speed, and 6 supply. Counters liberators much better, but allows mech play.
And from there on, maybe we'll see terran go for something else than mass liberators with their bio. Maybe ghosts will be back in the matchup.
Point is, less abusive, less massable tempest, but tempests that are better at their jobs.
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Problem is with revelation tempest outrange everything.
No real way to dodge revelation as it's insta cast.
So you're forced to engage.
Tempest are protected by high templar, so you need to split but you also need to focus fire as tempest have lot of hp.
And when you focus fire the units tend to stack.
So it's hard to balance :
You don't want to touch revelation for PvZ to counter lurker, but 60s is a bit long, 45s could be more balance and enough vs lurker.
Or as suggesting reduicing HP or increasing supply could allow more counter play while tempests will still counter broodlords and liberator.
Else reduicing storm dmg vs armored air unit could also be a solution : corruptors and vikings will be less sensitive to storm (but mutas for example remain affected so don't make them stronger)
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On July 16 2016 21:22 JackONeill wrote:
15 range with the revelation makes them so abusive and punishing that the fact that they're massable (4pop), so beefy (450 hp) and has decent "I can kite" movespeed is just stupid. There is no army in the game that can beat mass tempests with storm, except for mass carriers maybe.
It wouldn't be a problem if it was so impossible to reach. Problem is, against mech, even if the terran player is agressive, your protoss opponent can easily add tempests to his composition and trade his ground units until he only masses tempests and storm. Really, tempests are the only and sole reason that mech doesn't work in TvP, because the immortal nerf effectively made mech decent.
Slight rework of the cyclone and the tempest would allow for mech to be very viable. Maybe make tempest more of a fighting unit, with 10 range, faster attack speed, and 6 supply. Counters liberators much better, but allows mech play.
And from there on, maybe we'll see terran go for something else than mass liberators with their bio. Maybe ghosts will be back in the matchup.
Point is, less abusive, less massable tempest, but tempests that are better at their jobs.
signed
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"summit" = lets nerf warp prism
wow so much content...
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On July 16 2016 02:53 The_Red_Viper wrote:
The point of a community summit shouldn't be to talk about balance at all. They should talk about the game design, the actual interactions in the game, no matter if it is technically balanced or not.
Most people don't care about balance, they will think it is balance (to feel better), but in the end it's mostly the design choices which either make the game feel rewarding to play or not.
You can get a balanced game with lots and lots of "bad" gameplay ineteractions. That is where the discussion should be, not if the balance numbers work out.
Disappointed.
I think the point of a community summit is to get together and talk about whatever the community wants....I guess you should have been there if you really wanted to change the discussion.
DERP...Dissapointed.
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On July 16 2016 02:59 Tanked1 wrote:
Personally I think the learning curve is already too steep and making changes to the warp prism like proposed will only make it worse. In general, the game is too unforgiving for new players or casual players and it's worrisome that the balance team is still trying to make it steeper.
It's impossible to recruit friends to play sc2 because new players are simply so bad. It's not fun to get your scvs wiped out in 2 seconds because a good player had the perfect harass unit and could micro the crap out of it. I really think the community is suffering because the game had turned away casual players from everything except the arcade. My 2 cents
Not only noobs. Even when you know the game a bit, it's pretty frustrating to play. 3s and you are out of the game completely, pushed by an insane macro advantage and snowball. Also there's a very low amount of defensive mechanisms compared to how easy is to kill shit. I've always thought that buildings should scale slightly better to the lategame for example.
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Okay lets focus on the warprism.
*A fast unit that can become hyperfast with an upgrade.
*The ability to warp in "endless" units
*The HUGE pickup range compared to other races
*Lot of hitpoints
For just some minerals.
And blizzard needs a summit to figure out that this unit is a problem... kek
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On July 16 2016 23:11 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Okay lets focus on the warprism.
*A fast unit that can become hyperfast with an upgrade.
*The ability to warp in "endless" units
*The HUGE pickup range compared to other races
*Lot of hitpoints
For just some minerals.
And blizzard needs a summit to figure out that this unit is a problem... kek
Yeah because doomdrops or mutaflocks are more balanced right¿?
I think that we are looking at this problem with a short-minded approach. Warping in prisms should take the longest duration, and other small nerfs would get it done, like some extra delays, acceleration, smal HP tuning, etc.
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On July 16 2016 23:33 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 23:11 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Okay lets focus on the warprism.
*A fast unit that can become hyperfast with an upgrade.
*The ability to warp in "endless" units
*The HUGE pickup range compared to other races
*Lot of hitpoints
For just some minerals.
And blizzard needs a summit to figure out that this unit is a problem... kek Yeah because doomdrops or mutaflocks are more balanced right¿? I think that we are looking at this problem with a short-minded approach. Warping in prisms should take the longest duration, and other small nerfs would get it done, like some extra delays, acceleration, smal HP tuning, etc.
Who says doomdrops or mass mutaflocks are balanced? and incredible irrelevant to the point. The second part of the post is exactly one of the many ways to adjust an unit... but thats known.
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On July 16 2016 21:22 JackONeill wrote:
15 range with the revelation makes them so abusive and punishing that the fact that they're massable (4pop), so beefy (450 hp) and has decent "I can kite" movespeed is just stupid. There is no army in the game that can beat mass tempests with storm, except for mass carriers maybe.
It wouldn't be a problem if it was so impossible to reach. Problem is, against mech, even if the terran player is agressive, your protoss opponent can easily add tempests to his composition and trade his ground units until he only masses tempests and storm. Really, tempests are the only and sole reason that mech doesn't work in TvP, because the immortal nerf effectively made mech decent.
Slight rework of the cyclone and the tempest would allow for mech to be very viable. Maybe make tempest more of a fighting unit, with 10 range, faster attack speed, and 6 supply. Counters liberators much better, but allows mech play.
And from there on, maybe we'll see terran go for something else than mass liberators with their bio. Maybe ghosts will be back in the matchup.
Point is, less abusive, less massable tempest, but tempests that are better at their jobs.
I've posted several times a possible solution to retune the Tempest in a more balanced iteration.
Right now, Tempests move and shoot like another aerial unit, but with a siege range, like a God-Mode Viking which IMAO is stupid. It's only relatively balanced because of the low DPS of the unit and because it's so deep in the tech tree that is not relevant in the meta.
Instead, Tempets should MOVE and FIRE like an aerial SIEGE unit. Tempets should have a different type of attack instead of the standard 0.167 attack delay and release projectile, and get the tracking/projectile revelation thing adjusted or considered as a balance/design feature. Liberators are an approach to a siege feature: Firing requires to siege, even if it's kinda fast to unsiege. The Tankivac thing is something is also another type of dynamic siege movement: move, drop, 1.5s delay to siege attack, attack, move, redrop again when you have the space again. In my opinion, Tempests should act more like a Tankivac than like a Viking.
For example, Tempests could have a noticeably longer attack phase (projectile charge animation, 1.5s as an example) before releasing the projectile or charging it to full damage. The attack phase could have a noticeable slow or fully stopping the unit into a "charge phase", emphasizing the positional aspect of a unit with siege range and empowering the micro aspect of it, increasing the in-battle exposition of Tempets. In exchange, speed and acceleration values could be increased to increase mobility OUTSIDE of battles (the first LotV change, 2.75 speed could work then).
At the same time, the "attack channeling" should require at least vision during 50-75% of its phase or it would cancel/trigger the attack without fully charging it, making Tempests vision-dependent like Siege Tanks.
With that changes Tempests would perform more similar to a Siege unit, making their design more coherent. Balance should start after the design gets corrected, maybe even increasing supply, damage and giving some AoE but decreasing attack rate, something like a sniping megaship.
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Personally, I really regret buying LotV. It made StarCraft a bad game. And Blizzard's measures are useless. A shame! I liked WoL and HotS a lot.
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On July 16 2016 02:37 Clubfan wrote:
Interestingly, some of those who attended have reached out to say that the Queen buff is working so well that a Warp Prism change may not be necessary from the ZvP angle. Regardless of whether the change is necessary, this just reinforces our belief that we need more time to gauge the exact effects of recent patches before we make further changes to related things.
glad to hear a ground-based anti-air buff is working out well in the Z/P match up. I think it was needed in the T/Z matchup and its working well.
On July 17 2016 02:51 beentheredonethat wrote:
Personally, I really regret buying LotV. It made StarCraft a bad game. And Blizzard's measures are useless. A shame! I liked WoL and HotS a lot.
i play WoL 2v2s with my friends because they think all these new fancy HotS and LotV units make the game too complex. we find WoL games pretty quickly. they claim they find 1v1 WoL games very quickly as well.
WoL and HotS are very different from LotV and offer consumers some clear choices. Vote with your feet.... nothing is stopping you.
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Everyone at the summit had their say, and they werent allowed to talk about details afterwards, so who knows what is coming. I'd love it if they could make a faster, attacking mech style work for terran, the old MMM-something builds get a touch stale.
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On July 16 2016 18:14 JackONeill wrote:
Tempest HP's on supply ratio still over 100. Find a single unit that has more than 100 HPs per pop.
Hinty-dy hint hint : there's none. Because that would make them insanely powerfull and massable. Oh. Wait.
If only it came with severe draw-backs like having only 3 units in the game be slower than it, (none of which are regular army-units), one of the absolutely lowest DPSs in the game per supply (worse even than the noted-for-poor-DPS stalker), at one of the highest tech-tree points ... Hell, the only two "good" stats that the tempest has are its health per supply and its range.
"Different things are different" is never a good argument for or against something.
On July 16 2016 02:37 Clubfan wrote:Nerf Warp Prism drops by reducing Warp Prism HP/Shield- Surprisingly, this was the only unanimous potential change that came up.
- The reasoning for this change (instead of something like speed) was to allow the players who use Warp Prisms really well to be able to continue using them at a strong state, whereas players who aren’t as efficient with the Warp Prism micro should have a bit more trouble being successful with drops after a change like this.
Gotta say I'm really disappointed in this potential change as well.
Warp prisms are not meaty, and they don't typically carry units which can defend the warp-prism. A more interesting change would be reducing the range of pick-ups by 1 (possibly 2) so that even picking up units, the prism is vulnerable to counter-fire.
Nerfing the health just makes all prism harass more risky. It's not a way to differentiate skill. Nerfing the range allows better players to make interesting decisions (do I go back to pick up one unit? two? Can I only escape with the damage from picking up one? two? three? Where do I drop to get in and have safety to get out? Am I safe enough to drop here, allow the dropping units to tank some, and still get out with pick-up?).
Moreover, I'd argue that the warp-prism's current "strength" is really just that adepts are so difficult to counter due to the shade. Why not address shades first (since they're a problem that almost everyone hates anyway) and then see if anything needs to change for the prism?
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I don't think its worth reading these anymore. The information is never reliable and they tend to discuss a topic, tell us how far into testing they were and in the next update: that never happened...
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C'mon now guys, David Kim killed this game a long time ago. Let it rest.
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Do people really think the current ultras are fine for their cost? I'm a bit baffled and I don't even play terran (or any other race for that matter)
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Tempest 4 supply, you can build 2 in the (aprox) same time of 1 bc and thats without chrono. Seems correct blizzard....
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On July 17 2016 08:27 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 02:37 Clubfan wrote:Nerf Warp Prism drops by reducing Warp Prism HP/Shield- Surprisingly, this was the only unanimous potential change that came up.
- The reasoning for this change (instead of something like speed) was to allow the players who use Warp Prisms really well to be able to continue using them at a strong state, whereas players who aren’t as efficient with the Warp Prism micro should have a bit more trouble being successful with drops after a change like this.
Gotta say I'm really disappointed in this potential change as well. Warp prisms are not meaty, and they don't typically carry units which can defend the warp-prism. A more interesting change would be reducing the range of pick-ups by 1 (possibly 2) so that even picking up units, the prism is vulnerable to counter-fire. Nerfing the health just makes all prism harass more risky. It's not a way to differentiate skill. Nerfing the range allows better players to make interesting decisions (do I go back to pick up one unit? two? Can I only escape with the damage from picking up one? two? three? Where do I drop to get in and have safety to get out? Am I safe enough to drop here, allow the dropping units to tank some, and still get out with pick-up?). Moreover, I'd argue that the warp-prism's current "strength" is really just that adepts are so difficult to counter due to the shade. Why not address shades first (since they're a problem that almost everyone hates anyway) and then see if anything needs to change for the prism?
It's just that you always only have one warp prism: one warp prism is sufficient to warp in units and it's its only purpose so you don't have any back-ups. If your single one is destroyed your drop capability is destroyed for a while because there is no fallback plan. And there are some units out there that are strong dropship deterrents like mutalisks and vikings. So they have to become ridiculously survivable to be able to be reliable. In my opinion, bad things always happen when units become unique or too expensive, they become hit-and-miss and lead to gimmicky gameplay.
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On July 16 2016 03:17 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
It is like 10 engineers are locked in a room for 2 days discussing the engine problems of a car and then concluding that the car's default colour should be changed from light blue to dark blue.
I've been calling for a new design team since the HOTS beta, when I realized Blizzard was clueless. Everyone needs to demand that and nothing else. David Kim is the Roger Goodell of SC2.
It isn't about the design team being able to act alone or listen to the community (either too much or not enough), this is about the design team being unable to understand their own game, unable to see and reject bad ideas or implement good ideas when they see them.
Literally they've been throwing ideas at the game and seeing if they stick. No ability to recognize a good idea for their own game.
And that is why the Warhound used up valuable beta test time when it should have never made it out of the designers head, why the Tempest suddenly went from a Muta-killer to a siege unit (nevermind the fact Protoss already had a flying siege range massive unit, the Carrier, that was so poorly balanced it had no place in the game) why we had to live through BFH TvT twice, once with Hellions in WOL and once in HOTS with Hellbats. There is no learning from the past, no ability to predict how a change could affect the game in the future.
It is truly laughable, the ease at which someone experienced in game design can predict how the game will be affected by the design decisions resulting in the people who actually make said decisions to do what you told them to months later. Let's just take one example... Adepts too strong? So many people including myself predicted that, months before the change.
How about Warp Prisms? Oh yeah a suggestion to reduce HP/Shields was mentioned back in November:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/498748-the-warp-prism-creates-a-mediocre-dynamic?page=1
Sure, not everyone agreed the Warp Prism was OP then, but that is where a good design team comes in, looks at the issue and addresses it when it comes up. Not 8 months late.
These are amateur mistakes. Scratch that, they are the mistakes of incredibly ignorant designers, as I've seen plenty of amatuer designers not make these kinds of mistakes.
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On July 18 2016 05:08 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Tempest 4 supply, you can build 2 in the (aprox) same time of 1 bc and thats without chrono. Seems correct blizzard....
This is just... I dont even know what to say.
People complain about MMM+Lib being stale. Well. What the option with tech-switches like this?
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new maps suck (exception made for the hots ones like frost). Zerg is getting stronger and stronger..... OP....
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On July 18 2016 17:55 junkdrop wrote:
new maps suck (exception made for the hots ones like frost). Zerg is getting stronger and stronger..... OP....
Luckily it´s a long road ahead as zerg was the weakest race before the patch and not likely to be OP after the patch.
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On July 18 2016 19:56 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 17:55 junkdrop wrote:
new maps suck (exception made for the hots ones like frost). Zerg is getting stronger and stronger..... OP.... Luckily it´s a long road ahead as zerg was the weakest race before the patch and not likely to be OP after the patch.
Zerg was only the weakest at the top korean level. Ladder is a whole different world.
I'd say that at the top foreigner level, zerg is the strongest and terran probably the weakest.
For masters and GM the race % representation is a strong indicator that zerg is again the strongest, and protoss probably the weakest.
All oppinions of course, except this one is based off some numbers 
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On July 18 2016 20:20 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 19:56 RaFox17 wrote:On July 18 2016 17:55 junkdrop wrote:
new maps suck (exception made for the hots ones like frost). Zerg is getting stronger and stronger..... OP.... Luckily it´s a long road ahead as zerg was the weakest race before the patch and not likely to be OP after the patch. Zerg was only the weakest at the top korean level. Ladder is a whole different world. I'd say that at the top foreigner level, zerg is the strongest and terran probably the weakest. For masters and GM the race % representation is a strong indicator that zerg is again the strongest, and protoss probably the weakest. All oppinions of course, except this one is based off some numbers
The top Korean level is the most important for the e-sport scene in my opinion. Foreign level is different but it is quite ok at the moment. For casuals balance is not that important but whether the game is fun to play. (balance affects that yes.) Thats why they should fix some of the idiotic/dumb units and interactions in the game. (Ultra vs. ghost, WP, tempest, liberators, zerg having no air presence for most of the game etc)
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On July 18 2016 20:20 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 19:56 RaFox17 wrote:On July 18 2016 17:55 junkdrop wrote:
new maps suck (exception made for the hots ones like frost). Zerg is getting stronger and stronger..... OP.... Luckily it´s a long road ahead as zerg was the weakest race before the patch and not likely to be OP after the patch. Zerg was only the weakest at the top korean level. Ladder is a whole different world. I'd say that at the top foreigner level, zerg is the strongest and terran probably the weakest. For masters and GM the race % representation is a strong indicator that zerg is again the strongest, and protoss probably the weakest. All oppinions of course, except this one is based off some numbers
I'll give you a hint : in one case players have practiced enough to understand and play the game (almost) at his best, in the other case they are doing big mistakes that have much more consequence that any balance issues that may or may not exist at the moment.
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On July 18 2016 14:59 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 03:17 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
It is like 10 engineers are locked in a room for 2 days discussing the engine problems of a car and then concluding that the car's default colour should be changed from light blue to dark blue. I've been calling for a new design team since the HOTS beta, when I realized Blizzard was clueless. Everyone needs to demand that and nothing else. David Kim is the Roger Goodell of SC2. It isn't about the design team being able to act alone or listen to the community (either too much or not enough), this is about the design team being unable to understand their own game, unable to see and reject bad ideas or implement good ideas when they see them.Literally they've been throwing ideas at the game and seeing if they stick. No ability to recognize a good idea for their own game. And that is why the Warhound used up valuable beta test time when it should have never made it out of the designers head, why the Tempest suddenly went from a Muta-killer to a siege unit (nevermind the fact Protoss already had a flying siege range massive unit, the Carrier, that was so poorly balanced it had no place in the game) why we had to live through BFH TvT twice, once with Hellions in WOL and once in HOTS with Hellbats. There is no learning from the past, no ability to predict how a change could affect the game in the future. It is truly laughable, the ease at which someone experienced in game design can predict how the game will be affected by the design decisions resulting in the people who actually make said decisions to do what you told them to months later. Let's just take one example... Adepts too strong? So many people including myself predicted that, months before the change. How about Warp Prisms? Oh yeah a suggestion to reduce HP/Shields was mentioned back in November: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/498748-the-warp-prism-creates-a-mediocre-dynamic?page=1Sure, not everyone agreed the Warp Prism was OP then, but that is where a good design team comes in, looks at the issue and addresses it when it comes up. Not 8 months late.
These are amateur mistakes. Scratch that, they are the mistakes of incredibly ignorant designers, as I've seen plenty of amatuer designers not make these kinds of mistakes.
on the other hand you're a true professional of shitposting, I ll give you that.
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On July 18 2016 14:59 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 03:17 MockHamill wrote:
I do not even know what to say.
It is like 10 engineers are locked in a room for 2 days discussing the engine problems of a car and then concluding that the car's default colour should be changed from light blue to dark blue. I've been calling for a new design team since the HOTS beta, when I realized Blizzard was clueless. Everyone needs to demand that and nothing else. David Kim is the Roger Goodell of SC2. It isn't about the design team being able to act alone or listen to the community (either too much or not enough), this is about the design team being unable to understand their own game, unable to see and reject bad ideas or implement good ideas when they see them.Literally they've been throwing ideas at the game and seeing if they stick. No ability to recognize a good idea for their own game. And that is why the Warhound used up valuable beta test time when it should have never made it out of the designers head, why the Tempest suddenly went from a Muta-killer to a siege unit (nevermind the fact Protoss already had a flying siege range massive unit, the Carrier, that was so poorly balanced it had no place in the game) why we had to live through BFH TvT twice, once with Hellions in WOL and once in HOTS with Hellbats. There is no learning from the past, no ability to predict how a change could affect the game in the future. It is truly laughable, the ease at which someone experienced in game design can predict how the game will be affected by the design decisions resulting in the people who actually make said decisions to do what you told them to months later. Let's just take one example... Adepts too strong? So many people including myself predicted that, months before the change. How about Warp Prisms? Oh yeah a suggestion to reduce HP/Shields was mentioned back in November: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/498748-the-warp-prism-creates-a-mediocre-dynamic?page=1Sure, not everyone agreed the Warp Prism was OP then, but that is where a good design team comes in, looks at the issue and addresses it when it comes up. Not 8 months late.
These are amateur mistakes. Scratch that, they are the mistakes of incredibly ignorant designers, as I've seen plenty of amatuer designers not make these kinds of mistakes.
They kind of did change the team, at least the lead designer i think; it used to be dustin and now it's dk. The new team had good ideas IMO, the problem is that when it becomes clear that they failed in implementation, they do not work on fixing stuff. They just do this little shity patches while ignoring all the big problems, and it's been a year of this so there is no excuse of not enough time here. Now i hear that the size of the team is as big as it ever was, so it's not a question of money either.
The SC2 situation is truly baffling to me. It's like they are trying to see how many people they can piss of and for how long will people stick around lol. It's really twilight zone material this
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The amount of crying in this thread is sad.
I like the game right now, maybe it has to do with the fact that Im playing protoss, maybe not.
Obviously they will never release patch every week, and they wont fire all the balance team because you find something who doesnt work with the way you play your video game
Also why mech only should be viable ? Who say that ? Terran is about flexibility so I dont think it HAS to be an option, why mech couldnt be tools for bio ?
I do think that Protoss need small nerf for lots of units.
In my opinion Protoss is supposed to be hard tech choices and hard micro, but right now every tech is almost good vs everything in early game, and with massive damage protoss are too safe to go to let game
My suggestions are
Adepts shade are too spammable and you got 2 unit for one :
- much higher cooldown to shade, but adept can build up 2 charge (obviously you cannot use 2 charge at one time )
- and/or adept looses shield (50?) or life (20 ? ) when you cancel your shade.
Oracles are too strong in early game, i can totaly see coming the mass oracle cancer.
maybe : remove energy from oracle, capacities cost shield, wards last something like 1 minute.
Prism is op, but is needed because protoss units are the most expensive.
reducing hp will not change anything since when you micro your prism you always want him to be out of range.
so my suggestions are :
- reducing range pick up by 1, and the warping area
or
- prism only have range pick up on warp mode
or
- reducing cargo size by 2 and a small delay on dropping so the micro is harder
Mc should be mainly for defence :
so overcharge doesnt target building is a good idea (happy bunker rush ? )
I dont know if Tempest is too strong but it is boring.
Something like a 15 range aoe slow projectile with small radius and 1.5 s channelling time would be more fun.
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They should haul the UI again imo, make spectating other games easier and at will like dota. Make it so that we can watch tournaments ingame and thus more new people
Can see that there is a pro scene at SC2 so that they can see how multiplayer is played. A lot of people who try multiplayer doesnt know where to start guides arent available you need to dig deep for them.
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On July 16 2016 03:10 Finnz wrote:
What an underwhelming and dissapointing summit.
When 90% of our community is pissed off and annoyed by balance and design issues and only 1 thing can be discussed as a potential issue, then i just think to myself what is the actual point of a community summit.
I said last time, the people that came out of the last community summit that said stuff like "blizzard are going to release an incredible game with many changes coming to the near future. They are going to be as active as ever before and really redesign issues and balance flaws that are currently in the game". Those things did not really happen, 3 balance changes that have been rather minimal to the game since release (nearly a year ago) and a couple of UI changes with bug fixes and a new ladder revamp. Not really my idea of "active" or "balancing and creating great design to the gameplay and its units".
Once again people came out of the summit saying that blizzard have so many huge changes planned and design and balance fixes to the game. And this is all that they announce. Disgusting really, those people that come out and say that stuff should be ashamed. I prefer honesty, i prefer someone that can come out of the summit and say it as it is such as: "discussions were made about the game and its future, we talked about design and balance and unfortunately could only come up with 1 potential balance issue which was the warp prism hp/shields possibly being too much at the moment."
Now if the people came out and actually were just honest about the summit then i would be much happier, ofcourse i would be disappointing because i would of been hoping for some really cool and potentially brilliant ideas to help change the design and balance of certain units within the game that are quite clearly an issue at this moment. But to just basically be lied to and then find out from a community feedback thread is just so aggravating. Guess we are not going to have fixes to major problems to our gameplay once again.
completely agree and I've posted about this kind of b s before. Zerg buff to queen and spore clearly means they know that liberators are a big problem (not to mention medivac boost, widow mine drops etc,) but rather than admit the truth they make these other changes to avoid having to say that they made a ridiculous unit and have refused to nerf it. instead of queen buff and spore rooting time reduction, why not reduce the radius of the liberation zone and increase the time it takes liberators to change modes. that would be the right thing to do, address the actual problem instead of consistently refusing to acknowledge major gaffes and making other changes that wouldn't be necessary if they hadn't made OP warp prism pickup abilities and OP liberators. all it is is playing a transparent political game to try to save face by consistently presenting the view that there is nothing wrong with the new units by messing around with other things that clearly DIDN'T need to be messed around with until the new units got added.
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On July 19 2016 13:57 Ace1123 wrote:
They should haul the UI again imo, make spectating other games easier and at will like dota. Make it so that we can watch tournaments ingame and thus more new people
Can see that there is a pro scene at SC2 so that they can see how multiplayer is played. A lot of people who try multiplayer doesnt know where to start guides arent available you need to dig deep for them.
I agree, also they should advertise that the game is already in free to play.
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"There was a heavy emphasis on how we should not overreact with changes because even pros don’t know what the exact effects of the changes are."
Define overreaction?
At this point, it just seems like an excuse and a tool used to try and direct conversation to what Blizzard wants, not an honest plea against fiery sentiment.
Also, a curious appeal to... I'm not sure what. To Blizzard's authority? The deeper assertion seems to be 'we may not know the results of any such balance changes until we try it.' A sort of logical positivism. Yet, I disagree. Thought experiment and analysis can prove well enough what would happen in a great deal of cases.
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On July 18 2016 20:27 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 20:20 Salteador Neo wrote:On July 18 2016 19:56 RaFox17 wrote:On July 18 2016 17:55 junkdrop wrote:
new maps suck (exception made for the hots ones like frost). Zerg is getting stronger and stronger..... OP.... Luckily it´s a long road ahead as zerg was the weakest race before the patch and not likely to be OP after the patch. Zerg was only the weakest at the top korean level. Ladder is a whole different world. I'd say that at the top foreigner level, zerg is the strongest and terran probably the weakest. For masters and GM the race % representation is a strong indicator that zerg is again the strongest, and protoss probably the weakest. All oppinions of course, except this one is based off some numbers The top Korean level is the most important for the e-sport scene in my opinion. Foreign level is different but it is quite ok at the moment. For casuals balance is not that important but whether the game is fun to play. (balance affects that yes.) Thats why they should fix some of the idiotic/dumb units and interactions in the game. (Ultra vs. ghost, WP, tempest, liberators, zerg having no air presence for most of the game etc)
With separate tournaments and with most of the premier broadcast games being foreigner tournaments you can't ditch balance in the foreigner scene and sit content. You have to balance around both.
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On July 20 2016 00:08 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 20:27 RaFox17 wrote:On July 18 2016 20:20 Salteador Neo wrote:On July 18 2016 19:56 RaFox17 wrote:On July 18 2016 17:55 junkdrop wrote:
new maps suck (exception made for the hots ones like frost). Zerg is getting stronger and stronger..... OP.... Luckily it´s a long road ahead as zerg was the weakest race before the patch and not likely to be OP after the patch. Zerg was only the weakest at the top korean level. Ladder is a whole different world. I'd say that at the top foreigner level, zerg is the strongest and terran probably the weakest. For masters and GM the race % representation is a strong indicator that zerg is again the strongest, and protoss probably the weakest. All oppinions of course, except this one is based off some numbers The top Korean level is the most important for the e-sport scene in my opinion. Foreign level is different but it is quite ok at the moment. For casuals balance is not that important but whether the game is fun to play. (balance affects that yes.) Thats why they should fix some of the idiotic/dumb units and interactions in the game. (Ultra vs. ghost, WP, tempest, liberators, zerg having no air presence for most of the game etc) With separate tournaments and with most of the premier broadcast games being foreigner tournaments you can't ditch balance in the foreigner scene and sit content. You have to balance around both.
Except how do you do that without screwing up the top level even more? only way would be, if you play on NA server Terran has these stats, Zerg has these, Protoss has these, but if they are in Korea they are different. That would be retarded if done.
The game should be balanced around the highest level of play always. In theory, foreign Terran's could get as good as Korean Terrans (will never happen, but theoretically they could). So unless you have a magical solution to balancing both without making Terran more OP in KR, the game should remain balanced at the highest levels of play. (As a note, I don't know if TvP is balanced or not, I can only speak about TvZ).
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On July 20 2016 00:08 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 20:27 RaFox17 wrote:On July 18 2016 20:20 Salteador Neo wrote:On July 18 2016 19:56 RaFox17 wrote:On July 18 2016 17:55 junkdrop wrote:
new maps suck (exception made for the hots ones like frost). Zerg is getting stronger and stronger..... OP.... Luckily it´s a long road ahead as zerg was the weakest race before the patch and not likely to be OP after the patch. Zerg was only the weakest at the top korean level. Ladder is a whole different world. I'd say that at the top foreigner level, zerg is the strongest and terran probably the weakest. For masters and GM the race % representation is a strong indicator that zerg is again the strongest, and protoss probably the weakest. All oppinions of course, except this one is based off some numbers The top Korean level is the most important for the e-sport scene in my opinion. Foreign level is different but it is quite ok at the moment. For casuals balance is not that important but whether the game is fun to play. (balance affects that yes.) Thats why they should fix some of the idiotic/dumb units and interactions in the game. (Ultra vs. ghost, WP, tempest, liberators, zerg having no air presence for most of the game etc) With separate tournaments and with most of the premier broadcast games being foreigner tournaments you can't ditch balance in the foreigner scene and sit content. You have to balance around both.
Easy to say, hard to do. Can you really always fix one without breaking the other?
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As beastyQT said on "natural expansion" I just wish they would give us new tools to play around with. When was the last time you saw anything cool being done with landed vikings? When was the last time you saw battlecruisers being used at all? I have been playing bio almost every game since I first started playing in wol. I never had more fun with starcraft, than the time where sky terran was viable. People are always complaining that terran never get anything other than bio, but the second we actually found another viable style, it got nerfed soon after.
sorry for the whiny ramble, but I am just so god damn tired of playing bio every single game.
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On July 20 2016 00:44 MperorM1 wrote:
As beastyQT said on "natural expansion" I just wish they would give us new tools to play around with. When was the last time you saw anything cool being done with landed vikings? When was the last time you saw battlecruisers being used at all? I have been playing bio almost every game since I first started playing in wol. I never had more fun with starcraft, than the time where sky terran was viable. People are always complaining that terran never get anything other than bio, but the second we actually found another viable style, it got nerfed soon after.
sorry for the whiny ramble, but I am just so god damn tired of playing bio every single game.
I think that the main problem regarding Terran is that it has been balanced mostly around bio, and they haven't been brave to test significant changes to other things. However, I think that we have to recognize that Mech has been around to some extent for a while and they have tested some improvements from time to time, but they aren't really enough. BioMech is prettty dominant in TvT and Mech was also pretty viable in HotS. In LotV, they nerfed Immortals and they introduced buffs and changes to Mech units, but the eco change is a big antagonist to Mech because it's a mid-lategame style. Liberator is pretty good though and it's used with Bio too.
There are also a few things to consider:
- Mech upgrades were split.
- Mules were not removed in LotV because it's the essential pillar of Bio, instead of exploring a production buff and rebalance economy and production better, so basically Terran macro is more favorable towards Bio.
- The Ghost was not reworked. EMP and Snipe (Ghost) are 2 abilities that come lategame to counter Ultras and Protoss so they basically promote staying on a Bio style.
- The Cyclone is a high-tech gimmicky unit, instead of a mid-game core mech unit.
- The Reaper was not reworked and it's basically the same unit, just a bit more cheese and harass friendly instead of a true situational unit.
- Most mech units weren't really modified.
I think that it is pretty easy to make mech more viable without breaking much shit.
- Combine Mech weapon upgrades. Makes mech way stronger, but more vulnerable towards cheap units (Zerg and Terran bio)
- Study a Helllion rebalance, removing Light tag (keep it on Hellbats). Basically only affects PvT since banes are not the Hellion's counter.
- Buff Thor. Increase push priority to 11, move speed to 2.25 (HotS time), +1 armor and maybe bonus dmg vs massive (gg ultralisk).
- Rework the Cyclone into a different, non-gimick core unit that is not gas-heavy and good vs mechanical units (anti Protons and antiMech, good synergy with bio). An armor penetration mechanic would be godlike vs ultras and lategame units.
- Study the Raven a bit too.
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On July 21 2016 22:38 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 00:44 MperorM1 wrote:
As beastyQT said on "natural expansion" I just wish they would give us new tools to play around with. When was the last time you saw anything cool being done with landed vikings? When was the last time you saw battlecruisers being used at all? I have been playing bio almost every game since I first started playing in wol. I never had more fun with starcraft, than the time where sky terran was viable. People are always complaining that terran never get anything other than bio, but the second we actually found another viable style, it got nerfed soon after.
sorry for the whiny ramble, but I am just so god damn tired of playing bio every single game. I think that the main problem regarding Terran is that it has been balanced mostly around bio, and they haven't been brave to test significant changes to other things. However, I think that we have to recognize that Mech has been around to some extent for a while and they have tested some improvements from time to time, but they aren't really enough. BioMech is prettty dominant in TvT and Mech was also pretty viable in HotS. In LotV, they nerfed Immortals and they introduced buffs and changes to Mech units, but the eco change is a big antagonist to Mech because it's a mid-lategame style. Liberator is pretty good though and it's used with Bio too. There are also a few things to consider: - Mech upgrades were split. - Mules were not removed in LotV because it's the essential pillar of Bio, instead of exploring a production buff and rebalance economy and production better, so basically Terran macro is more favorable towards Bio. - The Ghost was not reworked. EMP and Snipe (Ghost) are 2 abilities that come lategame to counter Ultras and Protoss so they basically promote staying on a Bio style. - The Cyclone is a high-tech gimmicky unit, instead of a mid-game core mech unit. - The Reaper was not reworked and it's basically the same unit, just a bit more cheese and harass friendly instead of a true situational unit. - Most mech units weren't really modified. I think that it is pretty easy to make mech more viable without breaking much shit. - Combine Mech weapon upgrades. Makes mech way stronger, but more vulnerable towards cheap units (Zerg and Terran bio) - Study a Helllion rebalance, removing Light tag (keep it on Hellbats). Basically only affects PvT since banes are not the Hellion's counter. - Buff Thor. Increase push priority to 11, move speed to 2.25 (HotS time), +1 armor and maybe bonus dmg vs massive (gg ultralisk). - Rework the Cyclone into a different, non-gimick core unit that is not gas-heavy and good vs mechanical units (anti Protons and antiMech, good synergy with bio). An armor penetration mechanic would be godlike vs ultras and lategame units. - Study the Raven a bit too.
Your cyclone sounds a lot like the warhound. That unit was a disaster because it lead to blobs of units type of army that had nether the positioning aspects of tank mech nor the super mobility of bio+medivacs. It makes essentially for a slower and less interesting type of bio.
I want mech play to be viable, but only if its tank based. Warhound style is much more boring then bio and has none of the intricacies of real mech, and air play based around caster units like the raven proved to be pure cancer for the game.
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On July 22 2016 01:24 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2016 22:38 JCoto wrote:On July 20 2016 00:44 MperorM1 wrote:
As beastyQT said on "natural expansion" I just wish they would give us new tools to play around with. When was the last time you saw anything cool being done with landed vikings? When was the last time you saw battlecruisers being used at all? I have been playing bio almost every game since I first started playing in wol. I never had more fun with starcraft, than the time where sky terran was viable. People are always complaining that terran never get anything other than bio, but the second we actually found another viable style, it got nerfed soon after.
sorry for the whiny ramble, but I am just so god damn tired of playing bio every single game. I think that the main problem regarding Terran is that it has been balanced mostly around bio, and they haven't been brave to test significant changes to other things. However, I think that we have to recognize that Mech has been around to some extent for a while and they have tested some improvements from time to time, but they aren't really enough. BioMech is prettty dominant in TvT and Mech was also pretty viable in HotS. In LotV, they nerfed Immortals and they introduced buffs and changes to Mech units, but the eco change is a big antagonist to Mech because it's a mid-lategame style. Liberator is pretty good though and it's used with Bio too. There are also a few things to consider: - Mech upgrades were split. - Mules were not removed in LotV because it's the essential pillar of Bio, instead of exploring a production buff and rebalance economy and production better, so basically Terran macro is more favorable towards Bio. - The Ghost was not reworked. EMP and Snipe (Ghost) are 2 abilities that come lategame to counter Ultras and Protoss so they basically promote staying on a Bio style. - The Cyclone is a high-tech gimmicky unit, instead of a mid-game core mech unit. - The Reaper was not reworked and it's basically the same unit, just a bit more cheese and harass friendly instead of a true situational unit. - Most mech units weren't really modified. I think that it is pretty easy to make mech more viable without breaking much shit. - Combine Mech weapon upgrades. Makes mech way stronger, but more vulnerable towards cheap units (Zerg and Terran bio) - Study a Helllion rebalance, removing Light tag (keep it on Hellbats). Basically only affects PvT since banes are not the Hellion's counter. - Buff Thor. Increase push priority to 11, move speed to 2.25 (HotS time), +1 armor and maybe bonus dmg vs massive (gg ultralisk). - Rework the Cyclone into a different, non-gimick core unit that is not gas-heavy and good vs mechanical units (anti Protons and antiMech, good synergy with bio). An armor penetration mechanic would be godlike vs ultras and lategame units. - Study the Raven a bit too. Your cyclone sounds a lot like the warhound. That unit was a disaster because it lead to blobs of units type of army that had nether the positioning aspects of tank mech nor the super mobility of bio+medivacs. It makes essentially for a slower and less interesting type of bio. I want mech play to be viable, but only if its tank based. Warhound style is much more boring then bio and has none of the intricacies of real mech, and air play based around caster units like the raven proved to be pure cancer for the game.
Well, I woulnd't argue that Warhound was a disaster but however it was really plainly broken. Insane DPS vs mech, nice range, insane cost efficiency, 220 HP, A-move unit. I mean, we could have something with the cost of the Stalker that could be raxed but pretty upgrade dependant and with 140 HP or so. The mobility concept fron the actual Cyclone could be kept.
If you areally want my opinion, the Cyclone was a direct fail, but it's kinda hard to innovate. Goliaths weren't top interesting units in BW either but they worked as a core unit. If we actually think about it, Hellions are mobile antilight, Hellbats meele AoE, Mines are cheap zoning crap, Tanks are artillery and Thors are not worth it but could be insane units. Really, what Mech is lacking is some kind of all-around unit and some anti-air. Some buff to Vikings would not be bad in that sense but then you'll have a ton of problems with easy mass VIkings destroying mineral lines in 2 secs.
If I were Blizz, I would seriously rethink the needs of Mech.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
