EPTHinty-dy hint hint : there's none. Because that would make them insanely powerfull and massable. Oh. Wait.
So glad this was adressed by the community summit. OH. WAIT.
Community Feedback Update - July 15 - Page 4
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JackONeill
861 Posts
Hinty-dy hint hint : there's none. Because that would make them insanely powerfull and massable. Oh. Wait. So glad this was adressed by the community summit. OH. WAIT. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On July 16 2016 18:14 JackONeill wrote: Tempest HP's on supply ratio still over 100. Find a single unit that has more than 100 HPs per pop. Hinty-dy hint hint : there's none. Because that would make them insanely powerfull and massable. Oh. Wait. So glad this was adressed by the community summit. OH. WAIT. To be fair, high health (and to a smaller extent: fast attack speed) is the easiest way of normalizing a unit's battle performance when it has a long range attack. Tempests deal relatively low damage for their cost and it should be clear that something like double damage with half the hit points would make them much more powerful as they could destroy enemies before they can reach the tempest flock. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On July 16 2016 20:12 Grumbels wrote: To be fair, high health (and to a smaller extent: fast attack speed) is the easiest way of normalizing a unit's battle performance when it has a long range attack. Tempests deal relatively low damage for their cost and it should be clear that something like double damage with half the hit points would make them much more powerful as they could destroy enemies before they can reach the tempest flock. The problem isn't so much the tempest itself, but it's abusability when combined with other units. Balance aside, it's just not fun at all to play against lategame P. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
It wouldn't be a problem if it was so impossible to reach. Problem is, against mech, even if the terran player is agressive, your protoss opponent can easily add tempests to his composition and trade his ground units until he only masses tempests and storm. Really, tempests are the only and sole reason that mech doesn't work in TvP, because the immortal nerf effectively made mech decent. Slight rework of the cyclone and the tempest would allow for mech to be very viable. Maybe make tempest more of a fighting unit, with 10 range, faster attack speed, and 6 supply. Counters liberators much better, but allows mech play. And from there on, maybe we'll see terran go for something else than mass liberators with their bio. Maybe ghosts will be back in the matchup. Point is, less abusive, less massable tempest, but tempests that are better at their jobs. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
No real way to dodge revelation as it's insta cast. So you're forced to engage. Tempest are protected by high templar, so you need to split but you also need to focus fire as tempest have lot of hp. And when you focus fire the units tend to stack. So it's hard to balance : You don't want to touch revelation for PvZ to counter lurker, but 60s is a bit long, 45s could be more balance and enough vs lurker. Or as suggesting reduicing HP or increasing supply could allow more counter play while tempests will still counter broodlords and liberator. Else reduicing storm dmg vs armored air unit could also be a solution : corruptors and vikings will be less sensitive to storm (but mutas for example remain affected so don't make them stronger) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15979 Posts
On July 16 2016 21:22 JackONeill wrote: 15 range with the revelation makes them so abusive and punishing that the fact that they're massable (4pop), so beefy (450 hp) and has decent "I can kite" movespeed is just stupid. There is no army in the game that can beat mass tempests with storm, except for mass carriers maybe. It wouldn't be a problem if it was so impossible to reach. Problem is, against mech, even if the terran player is agressive, your protoss opponent can easily add tempests to his composition and trade his ground units until he only masses tempests and storm. Really, tempests are the only and sole reason that mech doesn't work in TvP, because the immortal nerf effectively made mech decent. Slight rework of the cyclone and the tempest would allow for mech to be very viable. Maybe make tempest more of a fighting unit, with 10 range, faster attack speed, and 6 supply. Counters liberators much better, but allows mech play. And from there on, maybe we'll see terran go for something else than mass liberators with their bio. Maybe ghosts will be back in the matchup. Point is, less abusive, less massable tempest, but tempests that are better at their jobs. signed | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
wow so much content... | ||
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Hill_Shit
2 Posts
On July 16 2016 02:53 The_Red_Viper wrote: The point of a community summit shouldn't be to talk about balance at all. They should talk about the game design, the actual interactions in the game, no matter if it is technically balanced or not. Most people don't care about balance, they will think it is balance (to feel better), but in the end it's mostly the design choices which either make the game feel rewarding to play or not. You can get a balanced game with lots and lots of "bad" gameplay ineteractions. That is where the discussion should be, not if the balance numbers work out. Disappointed. I think the point of a community summit is to get together and talk about whatever the community wants....I guess you should have been there if you really wanted to change the discussion. DERP...Dissapointed. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On July 16 2016 02:59 Tanked1 wrote: Personally I think the learning curve is already too steep and making changes to the warp prism like proposed will only make it worse. In general, the game is too unforgiving for new players or casual players and it's worrisome that the balance team is still trying to make it steeper. It's impossible to recruit friends to play sc2 because new players are simply so bad. It's not fun to get your scvs wiped out in 2 seconds because a good player had the perfect harass unit and could micro the crap out of it. I really think the community is suffering because the game had turned away casual players from everything except the arcade. My 2 cents Not only noobs. Even when you know the game a bit, it's pretty frustrating to play. 3s and you are out of the game completely, pushed by an insane macro advantage and snowball. Also there's a very low amount of defensive mechanisms compared to how easy is to kill shit. I've always thought that buildings should scale slightly better to the lategame for example. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
*A fast unit that can become hyperfast with an upgrade. *The ability to warp in "endless" units *The HUGE pickup range compared to other races *Lot of hitpoints For just some minerals. And blizzard needs a summit to figure out that this unit is a problem... kek | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On July 16 2016 23:11 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Okay lets focus on the warprism. *A fast unit that can become hyperfast with an upgrade. *The ability to warp in "endless" units *The HUGE pickup range compared to other races *Lot of hitpoints For just some minerals. And blizzard needs a summit to figure out that this unit is a problem... kek Yeah because doomdrops or mutaflocks are more balanced right¿? I think that we are looking at this problem with a short-minded approach. Warping in prisms should take the longest duration, and other small nerfs would get it done, like some extra delays, acceleration, smal HP tuning, etc. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
On July 16 2016 23:33 JCoto wrote: Yeah because doomdrops or mutaflocks are more balanced right¿? I think that we are looking at this problem with a short-minded approach. Warping in prisms should take the longest duration, and other small nerfs would get it done, like some extra delays, acceleration, smal HP tuning, etc. Who says doomdrops or mass mutaflocks are balanced? and incredible irrelevant to the point. The second part of the post is exactly one of the many ways to adjust an unit... but thats known. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On July 16 2016 21:22 JackONeill wrote: 15 range with the revelation makes them so abusive and punishing that the fact that they're massable (4pop), so beefy (450 hp) and has decent "I can kite" movespeed is just stupid. There is no army in the game that can beat mass tempests with storm, except for mass carriers maybe. It wouldn't be a problem if it was so impossible to reach. Problem is, against mech, even if the terran player is agressive, your protoss opponent can easily add tempests to his composition and trade his ground units until he only masses tempests and storm. Really, tempests are the only and sole reason that mech doesn't work in TvP, because the immortal nerf effectively made mech decent. Slight rework of the cyclone and the tempest would allow for mech to be very viable. Maybe make tempest more of a fighting unit, with 10 range, faster attack speed, and 6 supply. Counters liberators much better, but allows mech play. And from there on, maybe we'll see terran go for something else than mass liberators with their bio. Maybe ghosts will be back in the matchup. Point is, less abusive, less massable tempest, but tempests that are better at their jobs. I've posted several times a possible solution to retune the Tempest in a more balanced iteration. Right now, Tempests move and shoot like another aerial unit, but with a siege range, like a God-Mode Viking which IMAO is stupid. It's only relatively balanced because of the low DPS of the unit and because it's so deep in the tech tree that is not relevant in the meta. Instead, Tempets should MOVE and FIRE like an aerial SIEGE unit. Tempets should have a different type of attack instead of the standard 0.167 attack delay and release projectile, and get the tracking/projectile revelation thing adjusted or considered as a balance/design feature. Liberators are an approach to a siege feature: Firing requires to siege, even if it's kinda fast to unsiege. The Tankivac thing is something is also another type of dynamic siege movement: move, drop, 1.5s delay to siege attack, attack, move, redrop again when you have the space again. In my opinion, Tempests should act more like a Tankivac than like a Viking. For example, Tempests could have a noticeably longer attack phase (projectile charge animation, 1.5s as an example) before releasing the projectile or charging it to full damage. The attack phase could have a noticeable slow or fully stopping the unit into a "charge phase", emphasizing the positional aspect of a unit with siege range and empowering the micro aspect of it, increasing the in-battle exposition of Tempets. In exchange, speed and acceleration values could be increased to increase mobility OUTSIDE of battles (the first LotV change, 2.75 speed could work then). At the same time, the "attack channeling" should require at least vision during 50-75% of its phase or it would cancel/trigger the attack without fully charging it, making Tempests vision-dependent like Siege Tanks. With that changes Tempests would perform more similar to a Siege unit, making their design more coherent. Balance should start after the design gets corrected, maybe even increasing supply, damage and giving some AoE but decreasing attack rate, something like a sniping megaship. | ||
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beentheredonethat
2934 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16787 Posts
On July 16 2016 02:37 Clubfan wrote: Interestingly, some of those who attended have reached out to say that the Queen buff is working so well that a Warp Prism change may not be necessary from the ZvP angle. Regardless of whether the change is necessary, this just reinforces our belief that we need more time to gauge the exact effects of recent patches before we make further changes to related things. glad to hear a ground-based anti-air buff is working out well in the Z/P match up. I think it was needed in the T/Z matchup and its working well. On July 17 2016 02:51 beentheredonethat wrote: Personally, I really regret buying LotV. It made StarCraft a bad game. And Blizzard's measures are useless. A shame! I liked WoL and HotS a lot. i play WoL 2v2s with my friends because they think all these new fancy HotS and LotV units make the game too complex. we find WoL games pretty quickly. they claim they find 1v1 WoL games very quickly as well. WoL and HotS are very different from LotV and offer consumers some clear choices. Vote with your feet.... nothing is stopping you. | ||
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scoo2r
Canada90 Posts
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On July 16 2016 18:14 JackONeill wrote: Tempest HP's on supply ratio still over 100. Find a single unit that has more than 100 HPs per pop. Hinty-dy hint hint : there's none. Because that would make them insanely powerfull and massable. Oh. Wait. If only it came with severe draw-backs like having only 3 units in the game be slower than it, (none of which are regular army-units), one of the absolutely lowest DPSs in the game per supply (worse even than the noted-for-poor-DPS stalker), at one of the highest tech-tree points ... Hell, the only two "good" stats that the tempest has are its health per supply and its range. "Different things are different" is never a good argument for or against something. On July 16 2016 02:37 Clubfan wrote: Nerf Warp Prism drops by reducing Warp Prism HP/Shield
Gotta say I'm really disappointed in this potential change as well. Warp prisms are not meaty, and they don't typically carry units which can defend the warp-prism. A more interesting change would be reducing the range of pick-ups by 1 (possibly 2) so that even picking up units, the prism is vulnerable to counter-fire. Nerfing the health just makes all prism harass more risky. It's not a way to differentiate skill. Nerfing the range allows better players to make interesting decisions (do I go back to pick up one unit? two? Can I only escape with the damage from picking up one? two? three? Where do I drop to get in and have safety to get out? Am I safe enough to drop here, allow the dropping units to tank some, and still get out with pick-up?). Moreover, I'd argue that the warp-prism's current "strength" is really just that adepts are so difficult to counter due to the shade. Why not address shades first (since they're a problem that almost everyone hates anyway) and then see if anything needs to change for the prism? | ||
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Lightrush
Bulgaria164 Posts
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Meridian
Sweden11 Posts
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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