EPTsince you mention it, i'm pretty sure i've heard a few times about MC having KR high masters or even GM level terran offrace. A lot of the best pros can/could offrace very well.
The Myth of the Chrono Boost Buff in LotV - Page 8
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Cyro
United Kingdom20341 Posts
since you mention it, i'm pretty sure i've heard a few times about MC having KR high masters or even GM level terran offrace. A lot of the best pros can/could offrace very well. | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On June 24 2016 00:35 TheWinks wrote: You don't need a cross racial comparison to do that here, just an understanding that because everyone had their macro mechanics nerfed you should consider the mechanic change in that context. Genuinely confused here ... if we don't need a comparison, then how are we considering things in-context? Context to what, exactly? The mule comparison is just mules to mules (exactly like this chronoboost discussion), so I'm not sure what that is intended to show either ... | ||
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SnowfaLL
Canada730 Posts
On June 24 2016 00:37 Cyro wrote: @SnowfaLL since you mention it, i'm pretty sure i've heard a few times about MC having KR high masters or even GM level terran offrace. A lot of the best pros can/could offrace very well. Exactly.. this game is more about intelligence and decision making than it is about pure macro ability. Those traits carry over from all 3 races, and its why the absolute top players win out of pure instincts in RTS games, rather than some mythological macro skill that only zergs can handle. The absolute top level players, they dont just follow the latest PartinG or Innovation build order and get grand masters/win tournaments.. They actually design their own builds, and "ADAPT" to situations in the game, something that this generation of RTS players seem to lack. Should probably add to this that doing the same build for ~5 years and whining when it doesnt work, is NOT how to be a "pro". | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16084 Posts
On June 23 2016 18:42 SnowfaLL wrote: I personally think the downfall of SC2 as a game (and a large reason why I stopped playing) is because of the "youtube generation" of screaming/acting like pewdiepie on stream has unfortunately given people like Avilo an opportunity to falsely label Protoss as an "easy" race to his wide range of (new to starcraft) followers, thus ruining any chance of any protoss having respect in the community. Unless you are a Korean BW player using protoss, good luck having anyone recognise your skill. People even consider MC and PartinG as "cheesers" because of their race, despite being easily the two most lethal decision-makers in the game and serious top 3 control. The community in this game is so brain-washed by listening to these attention-seeking twitch players who will say anything to get in the spotlight. And of course, as I say to everyone who says Protoss is "ez mode".. if its so easy, why don't you play it and win a WCS with protoss??? (Talking mainly to the "pros" who complain, like Avilo for instance) - I know as a protoss player, I switched to terran and built mass marines everygame to get to GM in WoL, so why can't they all do it the other way around if its that easy?? And of course, everyone brings up the Scarlett-DRG game, but lets face it; Scarlett is the best foreigner since Elky; of course she can offrace with either terran or protoss and have a high percentage chance at winning anything. protoss has been labeled an easy race since IdrA aka since wol release. On June 24 2016 00:37 Cyro wrote: @SnowfaLL since you mention it, i'm pretty sure i've heard a few times about MC having KR high masters or even GM level terran offrace. A lot of the best pros can/could offrace very well. after bomber got eliminated by Seed in Code A he streamed as protoss and beat many top 50 KR GM players by adept allining every game :D not saying protoss is ez but that was quite funny. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
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SnowfaLL
Canada730 Posts
On June 24 2016 09:40 Charoisaur wrote: protoss has been labeled an easy race since IdrA aka since wol release. . One thing I learned about TL is you can't mention that name in a negative aspect, it gets you banned. He has too many followers. Of course, if Avilo just started going on about his whining alone, no one would care - but with 4 years of reinforced from the early WoL "voices" of the game.. thats the main issue. | ||
Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
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bbqs
17 Posts
The old Chrono Boost cycle lasts approximately 45 game seconds; this is the time the Nexus needs to regenerate 25 energy. This means, out of every 45 gs, 20 gs is active Chrono time, meaning Chrono Boost is active on its target about 45% of the time (not exactly "only a short while"). This results an overall average boost of 50% * 0.45 = 22% (approximately). This is obviously more than the 15% increase of the new LotV Chrono, so even in first approximation, the old one seems to be significantly more effective. You did a mistake because energy regeneration is 0.8/s in HotS not in LotV. The wiki page is outdated, you thought it was so you further divided the value by 1.4 which is wrong, the value is already HotS scaled. The old chronoboost cycle actually lasts 31 seconds, which means 64.5% effectiveness over time which equals to a 34.5% perma-chrono. Also i think it's pointless to compare an un-nerfed HotS chronoboost to its nerfed LotV counterpart. We can't know how much it would have been nerfed if it was brought to lotv, we can only assume it, but we can say for sure it would receive its nerf like the other MMs. Finally i think it's important to account for human error when comparing the two, the old chrono requires attention and apm and it lose its value if you get supply blocked, while the new one it's set and forget. Here's my comparison i posted a while ago on bnet: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20744214831 Don't mind the click bait title and also i think i got the mule nerf value wrong. | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On June 30 2016 00:09 bbqs wrote: You did a mistake because energy regeneration is 0.8/s in HotS not in LotV. The wiki page is outdated, you thought it was so you further divided the value by 1.4 which is wrong, the value is already HotS scaled. Energy regeneration in HotS is 0.5625 energy per second. The wiki page has been updated, which you can see easily. Alternatively, you could open the editor and check. | ||
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bbqs
17 Posts
On June 30 2016 02:59 Edowyth wrote: Energy regeneration in HotS is 0.5625 energy per second. The wiki page has been updated, which you can see easily. Alternatively, you could open the editor and check. Why do you post before even checking yourself? The chronoboost cycle is 31 seconds, which means 0.8 energy/second. The wiki page says 0.8/s which means it's not updated. Open a HotS custom game and verify it yourself, first chrono at 0.30, second chrono ready at 1.01 . | ||
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Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On June 30 2016 03:16 bbqs wrote: Why do you post before even checking yourself? The chronoboost cycle is 31 seconds, which means 0.8 energy/second. The wiki page says 0.8/s which means it's not updated. Open a HotS custom game and verify it yourself, first chrono at 0.30, second chrono ready at 1.01 . You're confusing duration of the ability with regeneration of energy. Here's a wiki page which has the facts: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Chrono_Boost_Math Energy Regeneration and Chrono Boost Of course, you can only continuously apply chronoboost if your nexus has the energy for it. A nexus regenerates 0.5625 energy per second, so one nexus regenerates the 25 energy required for Chrono Boost every 45 seconds (approximately). Normally: 45 (game seconds)= 45 (game seconds of work) As we saw earlier, each Chronoboost allows you to get an extra 10 seconds of work done. 45 (game seconds)= 55 (game seconds of work) This is a factor of 55/45=1.2222 faster, or 22%. One nexus is therefore capable of reducing production time by about 22% over the long term if a Chrono Boost is used as much as possible. (The speed will be slightly different if the research/production time is not a factor of 55). So regardless of the fact that Chrono Boost only takes 20 seconds itself, with a single nexus, only one Chrono Boost can be spent every 45 seconds. Alternatively, again, you could open the editor and see that energy regenerates at 0.5625 energy per second. And, if you don't trust all that, you could also go back and look at posts made (and not edited) since WoL's days where the same kind of math is done: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/195512-chrono-boost-math In particular, in the "Conclusions & Important Timings" we have: CB and Nexus -Empty Nexi (Ei=0). You can get 1 CB every 45 seconds. 25 energy / 45 seconds = 0.55555555555~ energy per second (the author of this post has rounded the time to 45 seconds because, even though energy regenerates at 0.5625 energy per second, you don't actually get the 25th energy you need until the clock has ticked on the 45th second ... the "pure" number would be 44.44444444~ seconds). Or, you can look below a few comments and see this: But whatever, some ppl might like, but you are missing one thing: Nexus regenerate 25 ene in roughly 45 sec (45*0,5625= ~25), so using energy from single nexus you can boost something by 50% for 20 seconds every 45 sec, so one nexus is capable of boosting something by 22% in total using constant chrono boost (50%*20/45) if no energy was saved. Anyway, look up your "facts" before using them. | ||
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
On June 30 2016 00:09 bbqs wrote: Your whole argument is flawed because the premise is wrong. You did a mistake because energy regeneration is 0.8/s in HotS not in LotV. The wiki page is outdated, you thought it was so you further divided the value by 1.4 which is wrong, the value is already HotS scaled. The old chronoboost cycle actually lasts 31 seconds, which means 64.5% effectiveness over time which equals to a 34.5% perma-chrono. Also i think it's pointless to compare an un-nerfed HotS chronoboost to its nerfed LotV counterpart. We can't know how much it would have been nerfed if it was brought to lotv, we can only assume it, but we can say for sure it would receive its nerf like the other MMs. Finally i think it's important to account for human error when comparing the two, the old chrono requires attention and apm and it lose its value if you get supply blocked, while the new one it's set and forget. Here's my comparison i posted a while ago on bnet: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20744214831 Don't mind the click bait title and also i think i got the mule nerf value wrong. The point of the whole post was to show that the new Chrono is weaker than the old one, and nothing more. I agree that it doesn't say a lot in the context of the game, because as you said, other MMs have been nerfed as well. I only wanted to point out that, as I have said a few times now, it is not a buff, contrary to what some others believed. And yes, I know that the new Chrono is simpler to use and harder to forget in the HotS sense, but it also comes with a good amount of drawbacks, as more Nexi's Chronos cannot be focused on a single structure, energy cannot be banked for future important upgrades/remaxes, forgetting it on inactive structures results in permanent loss of opportunity, and it's generally clumsier to use (in my opinion). On June 30 2016 03:16 bbqs wrote: Why do you post before even checking yourself? The chronoboost cycle is 31 seconds, which means 0.8 energy/second. The wiki page says 0.8/s which means it's not updated. Open a HotS custom game and verify it yourself, first chrono at 0.30, second chrono ready at 1.01 . Also, I did read your post on Battle.net, but it's you that makes the mistake with the energy regeneration rates, not me. The energy regeneration rate is 0.5625 per faster game second in HotS. The wiki is updated, and that's why it says 0.7875 for LotV (which is approximately 0.8, but not quite). That's why a Chrono cycle lasts about 45 game seconds, which, by the way, you can verify yourself if you open up a HotS custom game. | ||
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bbqs
17 Posts
Also, I did read your post on Battle.net, but it's you that makes the mistake with the energy regeneration rates, not me. The energy regeneration rate is 0.5625 per faster game second in HotS. The wiki is updated, and that's why it says 0.7875 for LotV (which is approximately 0.8, but not quite). That's why a Chrono cycle lasts about 45 game seconds, which, by the way, you can [i]verify yourself if you open up a HotS custom game. My bad, there is a bug in the mod i used to test it in game (salt mod) where the energy regen is LotV but the time is HotS. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10782 Posts
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terranosaurus
7 Posts
With hots chrono it would take 30 second to gain energy and doesn't matter, that overall boost is 22%. Because lotv provides more constant boost. U have one worker per 14.45 and he can already mine, with hots chronoboost u wouldn't have that worker mining, but than he would pop faster. But because you have these faster workers, it boosts you to taking natural and than you have new mineral line, which provides more income. Thorough topic, but to get it exactly accurate, you would have to literally count everything from start of the game, first worker is about 2.55 second faster, so he delivers a bit sooner. Lotv chronoboost is part of imbalance, because there is simply nothing else, which would cause, about that lot bigger economy than terran, just see graphs, protoss has more income from start of the game. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20341 Posts
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necrosexy
451 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20341 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5224 Posts
On June 30 2016 06:02 terranosaurus wrote: It is not quite that simple. With hots chrono it would take 30 second to gain energy and doesn't matter, that overall boost is 22%. Because lotv provides more constant boost. U have one worker per 14.45 and he can already mine, with hots chronoboost u wouldn't have that worker mining, but than he would pop faster. But because you have these faster workers, it boosts you to taking natural and than you have new mineral line, which provides more income. Thorough topic, but to get it exactly accurate, you would have to literally count everything from start of the game, first worker is about 2.55 second faster, so he delivers a bit sooner. Lotv chronoboost is part of imbalance, because there is simply nothing else, which would cause, about that lot bigger economy than terran, just see graphs, protoss has more income from start of the game. I see. Now I am angry that Zealots are double the cost of the Marines and plan to make a video about it. Do you have a solution? Marines can even hit air units and are not melee units, can you believe they are half the cost Zealots? We need solutions for these problems! | ||
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necrosexy
451 Posts
On June 30 2016 08:15 Cyro wrote: Human error does not factor into the capabilities of a race and HOTS chrono boost is not hard to use perfectly or at least near-perfectly for the first 5 minutes of a game. It's easier than larvae inject. 1) you're speculating based on no evidence 2) the absurd implication that, beyond 5 minutes, stacking up chrono energy is negligible | ||
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