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Zulu23
Germany132 Posts
Terran: less minerals per mule and they cant be stacked. So its a big nerf. And what is very often forgotten, that looking on the plain worker count for terran is not the whole picture. The Mule is a tool to compensate economy disadvantages by design. Terrans have always, apart of the first twelfe seconds in the game, some workers off mining for sim city, and they are thus not mining at all. The mule is at least partrially there to compansate for that. | ||
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kill3r_cro
Croatia5 Posts
1. chrono boost was not nerfed as hard as terran and zerg macro mechanichs 2. it's autocast and doesnt require any skill (we seen how that worked out with zerg and how fast was that removed) 3. it arrives at zero seconds in game, while zerg and terran needs to unlock theirs macro boosters, we all know that macro advantage exponentaly grows through game 4. new expansions arrives macro booster ready, while terran needs to upgrade cc to oc and zerg need to get queen there or create one gg | ||
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Simberto
Germany11552 Posts
On June 22 2016 06:35 Elentos wrote: That's a really bad argument. Protoss players in HotS choosing not to chrono probes 100% doesn't make that version of chrono worse. Or do you mean players with bad macro who forget to chrono? People not chronoing key structures still happens in LotV and it's still a big deal. The argument is even worse than that. Consider that the HotS-Toss COULD chrono probes 100%. He chooses to chrono something else instead. Thus, he considers whatever else he is chronoing to be more important than chronoing probes. Which means that assuming he is not a very bad player, there is probably a good reason to believe so, especially in builds that have been edged out over longer periods of time. Thus, Mr. HotS is using his chrono in a way that is a least as good, but probably even better than chronoing probes 100% of the time, because he actively chose to do whatever he is doing instead of chronoing probes. Not that any of that is relevant, though. I see no reason for all races to be equal, or even for income throughout all races to be equal at all points in time. What is relevant is that the game is balanced as a whole, not that every single facet of the game is equal throughout all races. If all Zerg units, structures and upgrades would cost half as many minerals as they currently do, and zerg workers only returned half as many minerals each trip because they eat half of what they are carrying on the way (and zerg start with half as many minerals as the other races), zerg economy would look a lot worse than that of the other races, but literally nothing in the game changes at all. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
On June 22 2016 07:20 kill3r_cro wrote: So to summize: 1. chrono boost was not nerfed as hard as terran and zerg macro mechanichs 2. it's autocast and doesnt require any skill (we seen how that worked out with zerg and how fast was that removed) 3. it arrives at zero seconds in game, while zerg and terran needs to unlock theirs macro boosters, we all know that macro advantage exponentaly grows through game 4. new expansions arrives macro booster ready, while terran needs to upgrade cc to oc and zerg need to get queen there or create one gg I mean 1) its a pretty massive nerf 2) Given how people talks about how people just leave it on the nexus rather than switching it to WG or what ever I don't think it takes any more or less skill than press the mule hotkey on minerals. 3) This isn't a game based on symmetrical balance so I'm not sure why people are insisting that all macro mechanics be treated the same way. Despite the claim that Chrono is stronger than other macro mechanics, protoss is weakest in the early game, so shouldn't something about the toss early game be buffed or something in z/t early game be nerfed? I'm still not sure why people insist on discussing balance on a symmetrical level when the game has 3 very distinctly different races. | ||
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loko822
54 Posts
On June 22 2016 08:14 Jaaaaasper wrote: 3) This isn't a game based on symmetrical balance so I'm not sure why people are insisting that all macro mechanics be treated the same way. Despite the claim that Chrono is stronger than other macro mechanics, protoss is weakest in the early game, so shouldn't something about the toss early game be buffed or something in z/t early game be nerfed? I'm still not sure why people insist on discussing balance on a symmetrical level when the game has 3 very distinctly different races. - I think most understand that macro mechanics can be diverse. The rest of the game just has to fit to it. As posted earlier I still dont understand what actually makes up for LOTV Terran playing with lower supply compared to Protoss, when in HOTS it was the T beeing ahead in that regard. Tankivacs cant be the reason so only Liberator is left. It just feils weird seeing Terrans getting destroyed by warpgate armies. What actually happens once P's decide to work earlier into splash deathball type armies again? I havent seen that alot. Then again it also seems hard to judge balance based on pro games cause rarely you have the impression that two equally skilled players are facing each other. Its mostly just one guy looking way better than the other. So its hard to tell. - To protoss weakest early game...I must be watching a different starcraft then. From what I am observing Terrans struggle heavily getting any damage done early on while Protoss has gained ground in that regard compared to HOTS. I would assume in HOTS the average damage done early game between same level players was a bit Terran favored. Now it feels Protoss has the upper hand by far. | ||
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The_Frozen_Inferno
Canada98 Posts
Both last 90 blizzard seconds (64 real seconds) - they both make about 9 trips The LotV mule can bypass the harvester queue and mine over SCVs. However, they cannot mine over each other. So mules stack on SCVs, but they cannot stack over each other. But then this has always been the case. If I recall correctly, the only time this was not the case was a short time n the beta where they considered making it so that mules had to line up just like SCVs, but this is not currently the case. If this was ever a change, it has been reverted. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20301 Posts
On June 22 2016 07:20 kill3r_cro wrote: So to summize: 1. chrono boost was not nerfed as hard as terran and zerg macro mechanichs 2. it's autocast and doesnt require any skill (we seen how that worked out with zerg and how fast was that removed) 3. it arrives at zero seconds in game, while zerg and terran needs to unlock theirs macro boosters, we all know that macro advantage exponentaly grows through game 4. new expansions arrives macro booster ready, while terran needs to upgrade cc to oc and zerg need to get queen there or create one gg 1; Percentage wise it was nerfed the most by far, but it was also probably less important (like a 10% nerf to mule would probably hurt more than a 10% nerf to chrono) 2; Had this discussion before. Still takes some skill, is awkward to use, many people asked for old chrono mechanic. This isn't particularly related to balance unless you want to talk about which races are harder to play and i think there are strong argument for Protoss being hard there (other races have like 1.5x stronger representation at high leagues) 3; it's proportionately much weaker, though, and the early start + being free with nexus only partially offsets that. 4; same as 3 ----- If I recall correctly, the only time this was not the case was a short time n the beta where they considered making it so that mules had to line up just like SCVs, but this is not currently the case. If this was ever a change, it has been reverted. You may not be able to put 2 mules on the same patch any more without them fighting but that doesn't affect much. ----- It just feils weird seeing Terrans getting destroyed by warpgate armies. What actually happens once P's decide to work earlier into splash deathball type armies again? I havent seen that alot. P is much more warpgate focused now and meta has shifted strongly away from robo and even stargate play in favor of upgraded gateway units with.. more upgrades and light support in the early and midgame. Units like the Colossus are not as strong as they once were and will probably get nerfed if they become a problem with decent gateway units existing. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On June 22 2016 08:14 Jaaaaasper wrote: I mean 1) its a pretty massive nerf 2) Given how people talks about how people just leave it on the nexus rather than switching it to WG or what ever I don't think it takes any more or less skill than press the mule hotkey on minerals. 3) This isn't a game based on symmetrical balance so I'm not sure why people are insisting that all macro mechanics be treated the same way. Despite the claim that Chrono is stronger than other macro mechanics, protoss is weakest in the early game, so shouldn't something about the toss early game be buffed or something in z/t early game be nerfed? I'm still not sure why people insist on discussing balance on a symmetrical level when the game has 3 very distinctly different races. It's not a massive nerf. The test i ran shows it's equivalent if not better than HOTS chronoboost. And that test was ran with me doing the HOTS chrono every single time i had 25 energy pop up on the nexus. This means if even 2-3 of those chronos from HOTS are not used on probes, while the chrono from LOTV is constantly used on probes...the LOTV chrono is giving an INSANE economy lead for P in terms of getting a 2 base saturation. User was temp banned for consistent balance whining and ignoring all evidence in this and other threads. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20301 Posts
On June 22 2016 10:58 avilo wrote: It's not a massive nerf. The test i ran shows it's equivalent if not better than HOTS chronoboost. And that test was ran with me doing the HOTS chrono every single time i had 25 energy pop up on the nexus. This means if even 2-3 of those chronos from HOTS are not used on probes, while the chrono from LOTV is constantly used on probes...the LOTV chrono is giving an INSANE economy lead for P in terms of getting a 2 base saturation. What test is this? The HOTS chrono gives ~1.47x more probes per minute on average. We've gone over this half a dozen times and you're just ignoring all of the math | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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Nezgar
Germany534 Posts
On June 22 2016 11:00 Cyro wrote: What test is this? The HOTS chrono gives ~1.47x more probes per minute on average. We've gone over this half a dozen times and you're just ignoring all of the math He is ignoring all the voices because it does not suit his narrative or his deranged world view in which all odds are stacked against him. And instead of properly arguing for his case with solid facts and evidence, he resorts to putting the "INSANE economy lead for P" in caps. Because writing in caps or raising the voice is the proper thing to do when you run out of arguments. On June 22 2016 05:55 avilo wrote: [1]Because it is objectively stronger? [2]A few people were pointing out that the timer on HOTS was not updated to the LOTV timer. If that is true then the test i did still shows that LOTV chrono is stronger because a HOTS Protoss wouldn't be 100% chrono boosting probes, whereas a LOTV Protoss is often times just 100% chronoboosting probes. [3]Meaning, yes, LOTV Protoss has an insane economy edge over HOTS Protoss...which is an imbalance... [4]People wanna keep ad hominem attacking without looking at data/gameplay? OK. I thought this was Teamliquid where people look at actual data/gameplay. Look, you cannot be serious or there is simply no point in trying to argue with you. 1. You don't seem to understand the definition of "objectively". You may want to look it up. If you do understand the definition of the word, you are ignoring all the calculations and arguments made against your idiotic claim without making any efforts to disprove them. The HotS version has a higher average boost as well as more flexibility in how you want to use it on key strategic buildings. 2. No, it does not still show that LotV chrono is better. As someone else already pointed out, if the Protoss decides to use chronoboost on something else instead of probes, it's probably for a very good reason... because something else offers a greater advantage than boosting probes 100% of the game. If you want to argue like that, I could claim that LotV MULE is better because Terrans in HotS were losing more MULES to harass or decided to use scan instead, resulting in lower minerals gained per energy consumption. But hey, I am not making such a claim, because it is fucking stupid and you should feel bad for making such ridiculous statements. 3. 3 does not follow from 2. You seem to be fond of buzzwords like "insane economy advantage". I don't know if you have watched too much Trump or if this is something you always do. Adding "insane" to your point does not improve your argument at all. Even IF the fact that you start with chrono ready were an advantage over the nerfed overall boost and flexibility, it would only be barely so... and that's a capitalized "if" to make you understand how important that word is in that sentence. 4. To be frank, the arguments you are making are absolutely stupid. The statements you are making are absolutely stupid and reflect badly on your displayed intellect. Look at some of the things you are writing: On June 21 2016 12:56 avilo wrote: In LOTV, most chronoboost usage is on probes because it's on them 100% of the time. Look at that and tell me that you are serious. And tell me how you can expect to be taken serious after uttering something like that. On top of that you haven't put forward any form of evidence for your claim either. You have not provided any video evidence in the thread that you started. No replays, no VODs from pro players being in that kind of situation, nothing. And yet here you are, criticizing the OP for looking only at data instead of gameplay as well. You lack even the most basic of knowledge in some areas. Either that or you are blatantly posting false information in order to deceive the users of this forum. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On June 22 2016 06:02 BlueStar wrote: I'm not sure... are u trolling or u believe in what u've written Avilo? ;o Maybe he actually believes that Protoss players are so bad that we missed all our chronos in HOTS. Either way, the winrates don't bear out a huge imbalance so no matter how much "better" he says the new chrono is, it doesn't matter. And I still want my old chrono back, I was really good at spending it all. On June 22 2016 07:20 kill3r_cro wrote: So to summize: 1. chrono boost was not nerfed as hard as terran and zerg macro mechanichs 2. it's autocast and doesnt require any skill (we seen how that worked out with zerg and how fast was that removed) 3. it arrives at zero seconds in game, while zerg and terran needs to unlock theirs macro boosters, we all know that macro advantage exponentaly grows through game 4. new expansions arrives macro booster ready, while terran needs to upgrade cc to oc and zerg need to get queen there or create one gg I still have yet to see a single iota of evidence showing how this exponentially growing advantage leads to more wins. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
The graph that's hidden in there near the end is all you really need to look at, and the story it tells isn't near as compelling as people are making it out to be. You can't look at the chrono change in a vacuum, you have pit it against the macro mechanics of the other races and observe their relative differences (I have a feeling it is much bigger than people think and contributes a lot to both the economic state of PvZ and PvT)... The new chrono is inflexible and does only one thing well - but what it does well it does nearly as well as the old chrono (given the mechanically average player), and that is chrono out probes. This combined with the gated macro mechanics of both T/Z, the mule nerf and the larva nerf, goes a long way to close the worker gap that Protoss typically experienced against Z and the income gap that allowed T to get away with expanding at a slightly slower rate. A stronger study wouldn't look at chrono in a vacuum. It would try to shoot down avilo's argument directly by comparing the LOTV chrono against Terran worker production and demonstrate against income disparity. All the conclusion of this paper shows me is that the "reduction in effectiveness" people are throwing about doesn't lead to as severe of a difference in income / time as I thought there would be. It's actually quite surprising. On June 21 2016 23:19 Teoita wrote: I imagine the best way to compare the HotS and LotV would be to check relative worker counts between races (past 12 supply), or better yet relative income (to account for mules), up to full two base saturation for Protoss (third timings changes so they would bias the data), by looking at a a few pro replays for instance. Obviously that's not conclusive since unit usage has changed greatly and we rely a little more on gateway units, but in terms of raw economy i can't think of a better way. This is the right idea  . | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20301 Posts
The new chrono is inflexible and does only one thing well - but what it does well it does nearly as well as the old chrono (given the mechanically average player), and that is chrono out probes. It also chrono's everything else, but you can't bank it and you can't use multiple nexii to accelerate one thing anymore. It chrono's out probes ~1.467x slower than the WOL/HOTS chrono. The only decent argument that i've seen against it is that you get the initial benefit earlier, so there's a period of time in the game (up to perhaps 2-3 minutes) where it's actually as strong or slightly stronger than the old chronoboost before the old chronoboost catches up to the advantage given from the earlier initial probes and is way better for the rest of the game. | ||
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VonComet
Slovenia26 Posts
As posted earlier I still dont understand what actually makes up for LOTV Terran playing with lower supply compared to Protoss, when in HOTS it was the T beeing ahead in that regard. Tankivacs cant be the reason so only Liberator is left. It just feils weird seeing Terrans getting destroyed by warpgate armies. I think we are really onto something strange here, when discussing this with others they have pointed out that adepts are allowing protoss to get away with more greedy builds but I disagree with them since terran's too have used somewhat more greedy builds in lotv, on the other hand the colosus nerf mitigates this effect of boosted protoss economy by preventing them from capitalizing on it as they could before. I think more experimentation is in order. All of you people attacking avilo personally because you don't agree with him should really reconsider the way you communicate, it's honestly making me sick. He is making arguments and devoting his time to experimentation and you are ridiculing him...its really sad edit: my terran mind automatically put this into a tvp perspective | ||
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daboss9635
Canada21 Posts
On June 22 2016 16:35 VonComet wrote: I think we are really onto something strange here, when discussing this with others they have pointed out that adepts are allowing protoss to get away with more greedy builds but I disagree with them since terran's too have used somewhat more greedy builds in lotv, on the other hand the colosus nerf mitigates this effect of boosted protoss economy by preventing them from capitalizing on it as they could before. I think more experimentation is in order. All of you people attacking avilo personally because you don't agree with him should really reconsider the way you communicate, it's honestly making me sick. He is making arguments and devoting his time to experimentation and you are ridiculing him...its really sad edit: my terran mind automatically put this into a tvp perspective No one from what I've see has been attacking Avilo personally in this thread, other than picking apart his arguments; the math in this thread doesn't lie. To get to the point, this thread is about how powerful HOTS and LOTV chrono are compared to eachother, but not how they are relative to the current races (which is how this thread is getting derailed a bit).This thread has undeniable proof that the HOTS chrono boost is more flexible and gives a higher production boost than the one in lotv. To all you guys talking about how protoss is economically further ahead than they were in hots. I agree it's pretty evident when a protoss can standardly get a saturated third when a terran is just landing his. But this has absolutely no bearing on the argument that "lotv chrono is stronger than hots chrono". | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On June 22 2016 07:20 kill3r_cro wrote: So to summize: 1. chrono boost was not nerfed as hard as terran and zerg macro mechanichs 2. it's autocast and doesnt require any skill (we seen how that worked out with zerg and how fast was that removed) 3. it arrives at zero seconds in game, while zerg and terran needs to unlock theirs macro boosters, we all know that macro advantage exponentaly grows through game 4. new expansions arrives macro booster ready, while terran needs to upgrade cc to oc and zerg need to get queen there or create one gg The bolded part here is something I've wanted to address. I've been reading these threads and this seems to be a pretty big theme. The idea being that, since it is autocast in LotV there is a lot less wasted chrono. This is just ridiculous. I am in diamond and I am sure well into masters we see chrono being used on warpgate, or +1 or Blink research, and then long after the research is done, the chrono still being autocast on the building for minutes even though the building is doing nothing. Instead of being back in probes, or on gates, or a robo or something useful. I mean past the 4 minute mark, I've noticed a ton of wasted chrono in replays. The idea that there is somehow less room to "waste" chrono since you cannot let a nexus go up to 100 energy anymore is pretty shallow thinking. | ||
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deth
Australia1757 Posts
Chronoboost is clearly worse in LotV than it was in HotS, but PO is unfathomably better... which goes against everything they were trying to achieve with it. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I think the problem with Protoss is that they 1. Have the most versatile cheese and pressure builds 2. Are almost immune to Terran early game pressure/cheese 3. Always can take a 3rd before Terran due to 1) and 2) 4. Have an insanely supply effective late game 5. Know before the game starts that Terran will go MMM/Liberator so they do not need to account for different play styles. All this combined makes Protoss much too strong in TvP below Korean pro level. At Korean pro level Terran can compensate by having insane multitasking and micro but for 99.9% of the players that is not the case. | ||
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Nezgar
Germany534 Posts
On June 22 2016 16:35 VonComet wrote: I think we are really onto something strange here, when discussing this with others they have pointed out that adepts are allowing protoss to get away with more greedy builds but I disagree with them since terran's too have used somewhat more greedy builds in lotv, on the other hand the colosus nerf mitigates this effect of boosted protoss economy by preventing them from capitalizing on it as they could before. I think more experimentation is in order. All of you people attacking avilo personally because you don't agree with him should really reconsider the way you communicate, it's honestly making me sick. He is making arguments and devoting his time to experimentation and you are ridiculing him...its really sad edit: my terran mind automatically put this into a tvp perspective I think the difference is probably due to the early game units and what long-term plans each race has in the current meta. HotS was all about strong Terran harass in the early game. It started with Hellbat drops and turned into mine drops later down the line. Protoss also had to get to splash damage as fast as possible in order to be able to compete with Terrans in the mid-game. The focus on tech and trying to make the first 2-3 bases safe against drops and other forms of harass meant that much less income could be diverted to army units. In LotV the roles are not only slightly reversed, Protoss does not have to tech up quite as fast as they used to be. With gateway armies being much more competitive and adept-based harass transitioning much smoother into a stable mid-game army composition, more ressources can be allocated to army instead of pure tech. Recently I have seen a lot of Terrans emphasize getting out Liberators and Siege Tanks quickly, which is the LotV equivalent of a HotS Protoss rushing Colossus or storm. That said, I haven't really noticed the Protoss being up 40 supply in the mid-game as Avilo has claimed... at least not in pro play. Looking at the most recent games in GSL and SSL, both races seemed to have been on par in terms of supply during the mid-game if neither side has taken huge losses early on. At least that's the explanation I could come up with. There might be other things at work here as well, but I am by no means an expert on that. We aren't bashing Avilo for the sake of bashing him or because it's fun to do so. I am doing it, because the things he says are plain stupid and there is no other way to describe it. The clings to his view of the world despite all the evidence stacked against it without actually providing any proof or examples of his own. His arguments are flawed and his test was an embarrassment. And instead of providing more and proper arguments and evidence to support his claim, all he does is repeat his points more fiercely or writing his buzzwords in caps without adding anything to it. It is impossible to have a civilized discussion with someone like that. To make matters worse, he is actively spreading misinformation, which is one of the worst things someone with an audience and some form of renown can do. | ||
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