According to the OP's research Chronoboost used to be a ~122% boost when used continuously, and is now a continuous 115% boost. 1-(115/122)= .057377..., or 5.7%
Chrono boost was never a 122% boost - that implies making workers 2.22x faster than normal.
If you fix the wording to 22% boost vs 15% boost, that's a reduction in efficiency by 1.467x, AKA a 31.8% nerf.
Ah, I suppose you're correct. Still, I think you're severely underestimating how huge the MULE nerf is compared to the Chronoboost nerf on the race's economies. In terms of how fast probes are actually created, it's only a 5.7% nerf, whereas the MULE nerf is straight up ~45 less minerals per mule.
On June 21 2016 09:17 Cyro wrote: Having looked over the math, i think that the macro mechanic nerf was clearly favoring terran over both P and Z, yet terran is the one to complain? Or maybe just a few specific terrans?
I'd agree that the Terran macro mechanic nerf wasn't as bad as the Zerg one, but are you really comparing the importance of Chronoboost to Protoss as being equal to the importance of MULEs to Terran? Zerg got shafted the worst, Terran the second worst and Protoss the least imo. The biggest problem for Protoss is not being able to get specific research / tech up as quickly, not really the impact on their economy.
I'd agree that the Terran macro mechanic nerf wasn't as bad as the Zerg one, but are you really comparing the importance of Chronoboost to Protoss as being equal to the importance of MULEs to Terran? Zerg got shafted the worst, Terran the second worst and Protoss the least imo. The biggest problem for Protoss is not being able to get specific research / tech up as quickly, not really the impact on their economy.
This analysis isn't very useful. What you should have done is make a test map with:
1) 12 worker start with old chrono VS 12 worker start with new chrono
2) 12 worker start old mule VS 12 worker start new mule
3) 12 worker start old inject VS 12 worker start new inject
and then compare the economical situations after a few minutes using the currently accepted as standard build orders.
This even assumes that a 6->12 worker start doesn't influence flow of the game differently for the 3 races, which it does. This is of course less the case in Sc2, but I'm confident that if a similar change would happen in BW, zerg would get the short end of the stick seeing that they're also limited by larva generation.
I did read it, it did nothing of the sorts, it did a vacuum analysis. It doesn't take into account minerals lost due to probes scouting and warping in buildings. It also doesn't take into account times when you have to save minerals for buildings and upgrades (reducing chronoboost's effectiveness) and a plethora of other factors.
I don't know any protoss build orders but I'm sure they're not that streamlined that you can produce probes 100% of the time, or maybe that is the case in Sc2? If so, ignore this part of the argument.
So to bring me back to my previous post. It would have been more useful to compare actual in game situations, and also look at the situation of the other races since that's the only thing that matters (the economical, technological and military state).
This thread is going off of only the math aspect, without understanding the implications of how boosting workers from the very start of the game snowballs a game, as well as there being insane human error/fault with using chronoboost.
LOTV chrono is 100% stronger than HOTS chrono just like automatic larva inject was ridiculously OP when it was put into the game because Zerg would have perfect macro like an AI never ever forgetting to inject.
Also, your math is not including that human error. As well as the math numbers you are going over are assuming 100% chrono is used on probes, where in HOTS 100% of chrono was not used on probes. In LOTV, most chronoboost usage is on probes because it's on them 100% of the time.
Despite the fact chrono is weaker in LOTV in terms of raw number/probe output, the fact that it's on the probes 100% of the time over a long period of time means it's insanely more effective than a player that accumulates 75-100 chrono and wasn't chronoing their probes in the first place.
LOTV chrono is a lot stronger than HOTS chrono - there is no myth. Your analysis lacks a lot of gameplay elements and the difference in how both are used in their corresponding games.
It also fails to acknowledge that at a start of a game where both player's economies are just building up, it's insanely more beneficial to have a boosted economy for the first 30-40 workers of the game.
It means if you are getting more workers earlier in a game of SC2, that's more income those workers are bringing back. Having chronoboost available from the very start of a LOTV game is insanely OP compared to HOTS where not 100% of the chrono was used due to that human error, and not all of it was used on probes to begin with.
Imagine if Z/T both were able to larva inject/mule at the very start of a game or if Terran was able to "call down" 3-4 extra SCVs more than normal. That's another 135 or so minerals per minute, assuming 45 or so minerals per minute per worker.
That is currently what Protoss is able to achieve in LOTV from the very start of a game, which makes their economy stronger than it supposed to be at the start of the game. Whether or not you think it's stronger than HOTS chronoboost does not matter - the fact is P chronoboost in LOTV is allowing them a too strong of a start that's not supposed to be possible compared to HOTS and WOL.
This thread's OP is entirely a vacuum analysis that does not look at how the game is actually played. And a lot of the math is also incorrect because it does not factor the human error of HOTS + choice of not using chrono on probes, not to mention the snowballing factor of getting an early eco boost compared to the other two races which by the way, have nerfed macro mechanics as well compared to HOTS.
The big difference is T/Z have the nerfed macro mechanics overall, whereas P is getting this constant probe boost throughout the entire game with zero human error, and also is starting the game with an unfair economy advantage due to the worker boost.
Hi guys, i rarely if ever make another thread like this on the same topic, but since it seems a lot of people in the community in the other thread i made, as well as in that "myth of chronoboost buff" thread don't seem to want to look at actual gameplay....
I decided i'd go ahead and prove to you what i have been posting about in regards to LOTV chronoboost.
A lot of people don't seem to understand that starting a game with chrono enabled is snowballing Protoss economy past where it is supposed to be that early in the game.
Getting even 3-4 extra workers in early game is an unfair advantage over the other two races that never existed in WOL and HOTS. Imagine starting a game with 15 workers versus your opponent's 12.
It may not seem like much, but that is an insane economy difference allowing you the luxury of affording extra pylons, gates, or even another nexus/cc/hatchery early in the game.
I have rambled about this the longest time in the past months on my stream, here on teamliquid, in random reddit posts etc. You may have heard me always say how "holy fuck Protoss is getting their 3rd way earlier than in HOTS, this makes no sense that they're able to get the 3rd + econ + tech + defense all at once."
Well...apparently taking 30 min or so out of my own time will show everyone objectively that what i've said all this time is objectively true, and that there is an imbalance that exists having infinite chrono enabled on your nexus from the start of an SC2 game.
The time to reach a 2 base saturation: LOTV: approximately 3 minutes 25 seconds HOTS: approximately 4 minutes 45 seconds
Both players have 3rd nexus around the exact same completion at those times in the different games, meaning in LOTV Protoss is getting their 3rd nexus approximately 1 min 20 seconds faster than they would in HOTS.
It is absolutely bonkers that in LOTV Protoss is getting the 3rd nexus 1 minute 20 seconds in advance of where they could possibly get it in HOTS.
I hope people will please objectively take a look at the video, and the two chronoboosts, and understand how impactful it is to be able to boost your workers at the very start of an SC2 game compared to having to wait till you have queens/orbital to unlock macro mechanics.
I honestly think there is an imbalance here and an adjustment should be made perhaps to make chronoboost be unlocked after a pylon or gateway is completed.
I'd like it if people would discuss this again, with the video / analysis in mind instead of just ad hominem attacking me. Thanks in advance.
Posting this here because the other thread i made was closed for no reason
Sure Protoss saturates 2 bases faster in LotV (and the other races do too for that matter). The fact that you believe that it is "past where it is supposed to be that early in the game" is just your unsupported opinion. Why shouldn't the game be balanced around Protoss saturating their natural a minute earlier.
Even in the case they weren't, it's still much faster in LOTV than in HOTS.
Look at a lot of TvP games where P has a fully saturated 3rd and T's 3rd has just landed or has very low saturation. There's something really overly strong for a while with P economy in early game LOTV.
The game timer changes account for the difference fully, it isn't faster it is exactly the same. The timer moved faster in HOTS and it was slowed down in LOTV.
Game speed changes The default game speed 'Faster' is now 1 to 1 with real time. Thus a game that lasted 12 in-game minutes now lasted 12 actual minutes instead of 12 / 1.4 ~= 8 minutes and 34 seconds.
Consequently all unit movement speeds, rate of fire, build times and ability cooldowns have their numbers changed. For example a 110 second upgrade will now state 110 / 1.4 ~= 79 seconds in the tooltip, and have had its actual research time rounded to this number. Note that it still takes almost exactly the same time to finish such an upgrade because the in-game time is going proportionally slower.
Avilo's HOTS time: 4:45 or 285 seconds.
Avilo's LOTV time: 3:25 or 205 seconds x 1.4 (to account for timer changes) = 287 seconds.
So yeah, Protoss is exactly the same when it comes saturating a base in LOTV as HOTS, according to his own video. That is why the Nexus in both games was at the same point when full saturation occurred, because everything is the same.
Chronoboost did not get buffed. It is the same. Use a stop watch with your replays instead of the in game timer and you'll realize this.
On June 21 2016 15:50 BronzeKnee wrote: The game timer changes account for the difference fully, it isn't faster it is exactly the same. The timer moved faster in HOTS and it was slowed down in LOTV.
Game speed changes The default game speed 'Faster' is now 1 to 1 with real time. Thus a game that lasted 12 in-game minutes now lasted 12 actual minutes instead of 12 / 1.4 ~= 8 minutes and 34 seconds.
Consequently all unit movement speeds, rate of fire, build times and ability cooldowns have their numbers changed. For example a 110 second upgrade will now state 110 / 1.4 ~= 79 seconds in the tooltip, and have had its actual research time rounded to this number. Note that it still takes almost exactly the same time to finish such an upgrade because the in-game time is going proportionally slower.
Avilo's HOTS time: 4:45 or 285 seconds.
Avilo's LOTV time: 3:25 or 205 seconds x 1.4 (to account for timer changes) = 287 seconds.
So yeah, Protoss is exactly the same when it comes saturating a base in LOTV as HOTS, according to his own video. That is why the Nexus in both games was at the same point when full saturation occurred, because everything is the same.
Chronoboost did not get buffed. It is the same. Use a stop watch with your replays instead of the in game timer and you'll realize this.
Except that it's not the same regardless because chrono is used differently in the two games.
In HOTS you don't 100% chrono probes, where as a hell of a lot of LOTV games probes are being chrono boosted almost 100% with no built up chrono.
In HOTS, a player might accumulate chrono from forgetting to use it or not doing it perfectly. In LOTV, you'll never not forget to use it.
Remember when queens had auto-inject? Zerg was ridiculous during beta on those patches because even if "larva inject was the same" the fact that you never, ever needed to remember to do it meant you were macroing almost perfectly and the game was kind of playing itself.
LOTV chrono is a lot better than HOTS chrono because of this. Even in ladder games, streams, and pro-games you can see Protoss has their 3rd base and probe saturation very far ahead of Terran.
And if that's true about the HOTS timer not being updated to LOTV timer that still proves my point assuming what you're saying is true...
Even in the case of what you're saying where the times are approximately even...now imagine the HOTS Protoss is not using 100% chrono on probes for even 2-3 cycles...it's a huge difference.
On June 21 2016 15:50 BronzeKnee wrote: The game timer changes account for the difference fully, it isn't faster it is exactly the same. The timer moved faster in HOTS and it was slowed down in LOTV.
Game speed changes The default game speed 'Faster' is now 1 to 1 with real time. Thus a game that lasted 12 in-game minutes now lasted 12 actual minutes instead of 12 / 1.4 ~= 8 minutes and 34 seconds.
Consequently all unit movement speeds, rate of fire, build times and ability cooldowns have their numbers changed. For example a 110 second upgrade will now state 110 / 1.4 ~= 79 seconds in the tooltip, and have had its actual research time rounded to this number. Note that it still takes almost exactly the same time to finish such an upgrade because the in-game time is going proportionally slower.
Avilo's HOTS time: 4:45 or 285 seconds.
Avilo's LOTV time: 3:25 or 205 seconds x 1.4 (to account for timer changes) = 287 seconds.
So yeah, Protoss is exactly the same when it comes saturating a base in LOTV as HOTS, according to his own video. That is why the Nexus in both games was at the same point when full saturation occurred, because everything is the same.
Chronoboost did not get buffed. It is the same. Use a stop watch with your replays instead of the in game timer and you'll realize this.
Doesn't that mean protoss got an overall relative buff due to protoss being the same economically, terran having 45 less mins per mule and zerg having 3 larva per inject?
Really cool to see math like this, great job Sholip!
I don't think it's really necessary to compare the current or past Chrono to the larvae or Mules for this argument, though I am curious. As it is right now, the change doesn't seem to make a big difference at the higher levels of play, and is somewhat simplified for the more average or lower skill players.
It's crazy to me that some people think the way CB and Protoss macro function is absolutely horrifying. Different race, different macro. I might hate Mules, but that doesn't mean Terran need to be reworked or Mules should be deleted. Seems good to me and, again, it's sweet to see all of the math laid out there for everyone.
EPT
