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i love this statement, its such a kick in the nuts to people who play Protoss !!!
"The Immortal change should help at the pro level, and the Colossus may help players who struggle with microing Disruptors, since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now."
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Russian Federation421 Posts
Please no Overgrowth. I can't play or watch this map anymore.
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protoss weak? haha retar*ed community
User was warned for this post
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Of course you have to balance the game based on the pros. Anything else would absolutely result in dead game because e-sport wouldn't be a thing.
In lower leagues there will of course be things that feels unbalanced due to lower skill. I (diamond zerg) think it's a nightmare to play against a protoss who can handle phoenixes or a terran who has the skill to drop everywhere all the time. I will lose like a real noob. That doesn't mean it's imbalanced. It just beats my bad habit of using the "all army" hotkey.
The game isn't fun in lower leagues? What bullshit is that? I've been in all leagues up to diamond and it's fun in all of them if you ask me. You will face bullshit everywhere but it's your job to adapt and learn to counter it no matter what race you play. That's the fun of the game imo. There is a counter.
Another thing that makes the game more fun in lower leagues is that you can use different compositions, builds and strats than in the pro leagues because of the inexperience of your opponent to counter strange strategies. I find that mech definitely is a thing in lower leagues. I lose to it a lot.
The other day I faced a protoss with the name ZergIMBA. Well, if I win he will think his name is correct. He didn't try to harass once and only built stalkers/immortals. My zergling swarm with a few hydras surrounded his army and crushed it in seconds. IMBA? No, he should work on his knowledge of the game and compositions.
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On May 14 2016 15:49 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 15:02 breaker1328 wrote:On May 14 2016 14:44 ihatevideogames wrote:On May 14 2016 14:19 Vedeynevin wrote:On May 14 2016 10:28 Tresher wrote:On May 14 2016 08:51 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 14 2016 07:00 DinoMight wrote: since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now. At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily. Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good. I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master... Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP". Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance. We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport. Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase. Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone. Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players. Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit. If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%. Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it. Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset. It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above. Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game. You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere. We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play. Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport." Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
You're talking with extremes. Noone said to balance it around gold leaguers, what we're saying is that if you completely disregard gold leaguers when you balance around the pros, you're not gonna have many gold leaguers playing the game and the game will die.
Also take a look at other competitive games, like Dota. They are balanced around the highest level, but they are playable for 3k mmr players.
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Im not opening stargate every pvz....zzzzzzzzz
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Protoss got more difficult to play whereas zerg got more easy to play with all the macro and unit changes of LOTV. So thats why we see more zerg and less Protoss, which not means that Protoss is UP its just underrepresented.
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On May 14 2016 14:19 Vedeynevin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 10:28 Tresher wrote:On May 14 2016 08:51 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 14 2016 07:00 DinoMight wrote: since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now. At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily. Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good. I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master... Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP". Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance. We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport. Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase. Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone. Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players. Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit. If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%. Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
1. System tries to force 50% winrate for all (this may be regarded as consequence, nevertheless it still works like that)
2. Because of condition 1, winrates only represent trend in what direction distribution is progressing or balance between matchups. The real balance is shown in league distribution. Protosses are already least played race in ranked ladder, and they are distributed way worse than other races. Especially compared to zerg, protosses are performing significantly worse.
3. Protoss doesn't seem to be a weak race, due to results in korea, just more difficult to play.
4. With balance tweaks like this shift of power from immortal to colossus, Blizzards seems to be making it easier for non-pros to play protoss. If, say, disruptor is still better than colossus if microed correctly, this doesn't have to affect the balance at pro level, in fact it may be actual nerf to protoss at pro level while being buff below pro level.
5. My personal opinion: Buffs shouldn't be made because one or very few players. If Blizzard nerfs protoss because of what for example Zest does, game won't be seeing much domination from one player, which could be welcome.
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On May 14 2016 15:49 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 15:02 breaker1328 wrote:On May 14 2016 14:44 ihatevideogames wrote:On May 14 2016 14:19 Vedeynevin wrote:On May 14 2016 10:28 Tresher wrote:On May 14 2016 08:51 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 14 2016 07:00 DinoMight wrote: since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now. At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily. Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good. I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master... Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP". Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance. We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport. Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase. Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone. Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players. Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit. If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%. Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it. Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset. It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above. Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game. You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere. We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play. Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport." Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
Of course you make sure the game is balanced in pro play. Zoom back out a bit, to the Colossus change that sparked this discussion. That's not likely to impact pro play, since Disruptors will still be better. It was a change targeted at players who want to be able to perform without having to master Disruptor play, to which this community's response was 'lol fuck noobs, why is Blizzard doing this?' Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this.
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On May 15 2016 00:03 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 15:49 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 14 2016 15:02 breaker1328 wrote:On May 14 2016 14:44 ihatevideogames wrote:On May 14 2016 14:19 Vedeynevin wrote:On May 14 2016 10:28 Tresher wrote:On May 14 2016 08:51 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 14 2016 07:00 DinoMight wrote: since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now. At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily. Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good. I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master... Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP". Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance. We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport. Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase. Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone. Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players. Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit. If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%. Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it. Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset. It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above. Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game. You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere. We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play. Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport." Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point. Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this.
How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre.
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On May 15 2016 01:14 Legobiten wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2016 00:03 NewSunshine wrote:On May 14 2016 15:49 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 14 2016 15:02 breaker1328 wrote:On May 14 2016 14:44 ihatevideogames wrote:On May 14 2016 14:19 Vedeynevin wrote:On May 14 2016 10:28 Tresher wrote:On May 14 2016 08:51 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 14 2016 07:00 DinoMight wrote: since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now. At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily. Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good. I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master... Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP". Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance. We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport. Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase. Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone. Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players. Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit. If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%. Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it. Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset. It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above. Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game. You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere. We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play. Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport." Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point. Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this. How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre.
Why is this so hard to understand? +1 to you for having common sense.
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On May 15 2016 01:14 Legobiten wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2016 00:03 NewSunshine wrote:On May 14 2016 15:49 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 14 2016 15:02 breaker1328 wrote:On May 14 2016 14:44 ihatevideogames wrote:On May 14 2016 14:19 Vedeynevin wrote:On May 14 2016 10:28 Tresher wrote:On May 14 2016 08:51 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 14 2016 07:00 DinoMight wrote: since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now. At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily. Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good. I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master... Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP". Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance. We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport. Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase. Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone. Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players. Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit. If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%. Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it. Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset. It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above. Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game. You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere. We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play. Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport." Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point. Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this. How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre.
You should know accessibility has nothing to do with buying it, it's far and away a more important issue. Blaming that on the RTS genre as a whole seems wrong to me, because the genre is built of so many small pieces, that all contribute to the whole. That, to me, is a cop out. Other e-sports are succeeding like they are because they're very approachable games, if you can't follow that example then it just isn't going to work.
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On May 15 2016 01:46 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2016 01:14 Legobiten wrote:On May 15 2016 00:03 NewSunshine wrote:On May 14 2016 15:49 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 14 2016 15:02 breaker1328 wrote:On May 14 2016 14:44 ihatevideogames wrote:On May 14 2016 14:19 Vedeynevin wrote:On May 14 2016 10:28 Tresher wrote:On May 14 2016 08:51 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 14 2016 07:00 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good. I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master... Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP". Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance. We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport. Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase. Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone. Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players. Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit. If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%. Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it. Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset. It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above. Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game. You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere. We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play. Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport." Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point. Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this. How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre. You should know accessibility has nothing to do with buying it, it's far and away a more important issue. Blaming that on the RTS genre as a whole seems wrong to me, because the genre is built of so many small pieces, that all contribute to the whole. That, to me, is a cop out. Other e-sports are succeeding like they are because they're very approachable games, if you can't follow that example then it just isn't going to work.
Sure, accessibility is more than buying it but many of the most popular e-sports are free and that's a big deal. Also they are not as complexed.
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On May 15 2016 01:46 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2016 01:14 Legobiten wrote:On May 15 2016 00:03 NewSunshine wrote:On May 14 2016 15:49 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 14 2016 15:02 breaker1328 wrote:On May 14 2016 14:44 ihatevideogames wrote:On May 14 2016 14:19 Vedeynevin wrote:On May 14 2016 10:28 Tresher wrote:On May 14 2016 08:51 Tyrhanius wrote:On May 14 2016 07:00 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good. I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master... Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP". Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance. We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport. Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase. Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone. Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players. Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit. If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%. Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it. Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset. It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above. Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game. You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere. We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play. Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport." Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point. Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this. How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre. You should know accessibility has nothing to do with buying it, it's far and away a more important issue. Blaming that on the RTS genre as a whole seems wrong to me, because the genre is built of so many small pieces, that all contribute to the whole. That, to me, is a cop out. Other e-sports are succeeding like they are because they're very approachable games, if you can't follow that example then it just isn't going to work.
There is a reason MOBA games are taking over, because they are free, come with tutorials that gives you a pretty good rough idea of how to play the game, and are learning curve friendly to noobs.
That doesn't mean we should try to make RTS cater to pure casuals, there is an arcade, customs, and Archon mode for that. It is what it is and Starcraft is currently the hardest game to learn and play with the steepest curve, preserve it's integrity, does it really matter to anyone if Dreamhack has 24K viewers instead of 34K? Does that really affect your ability to practice the game and have fun?
I don't know what the debate is even about anymore.
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On May 14 2016 07:00 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote + since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now. At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily. Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
Sounds like Terran since forever...
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This is amazing news. Finally some great maps to play in ladder!
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People do not switch race that easily, most of them continue to play the same race whatever the meta is, even after the SH nerf when Toss had a stronger mid game and a totally op late game, I still continued to play as zerg like a large majority of zerg players because 1) Race switching is pretty difficult, 2) Even with such a state of the game, I lose because I have +100 flaws, not because it was unwinable.
By the way, almost no one complained about this ridiculous state of game, it clearly shows that the protoss are by far the most vocal for balance whining during at least the last 2 later years. (remember when Rain said that T was like BL/infest during the Blink area? Even Nerchio is a sensible man in comparaison of this sort of comparaison)
Anyway, it is always funny to see the same debate on balance at lower level considering that you can be diamond just with a good macro with any race so no need of buffing a big A+click unit that everybody who is not protoss hates.
And, I am not sure that seeing some colossus deathball will be good for the viewership either.
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fix liberators. the ONLY air unit with splash damage. OK THANKS
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Polt vs. Elazer shows how much bullshit TvZ matchup is right now.
I gonna repeat myself and say:
- Bio is way too strong and mobile at the same time
- Zerg without mutalisks has basically no chance to come by that and therefore was given the ultralisk unit to be able to bring things back to terran at a certain point of time
- liberators ....
The resume is the same as what I said 3 years ago in tl balance thread: A healthy state of TvZ should be exactly the other way round. Z should be the mobile race which has to deny terran expansions and delay Terrans endgame. T should be the race that goes for a strong endgame where it can overpower Z and meanwhiles is limited to mostly defending + occasional harrassment with medivacs and air units or a strong but SLOW push.
The tools both races were given by nature support this idea of metagame and not the current metagame. It can only be achieved when terran bio and its counterparts of the other races (e.g. banelings) are being toned down and mech is being strengthened.
- remove marauder (potentially reintroduce as a T3 unit)
- nerf baneling
- remove tankivacs + buff tanks, buff BC etc.
- switch lurkers with ravagers position and adapt both units to their new positions (lurker weaker + lair requirement + built from roach, ravager stronger + built from hydra)
- further changes of T/Z and adapt P to the things done
result: make SC2 great again ;-)
short term fixes for current meta:
- make ultralisks more expensive: +50 gas and maybe +50 minerals
- go ahead with the liberator nerf
But I don't see how the intrinsic issues can be fixed through any minor changes like those. We gonna get used to liberator vs ultra meta in endgame, which is an absolute low quality level endgame imo and ppl rightfully go crazy on streamchats, lol.
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On May 16 2016 01:59 LSN wrote:
Polt vs. Elazer shows how much bullshit TvZ matchup is right now.
I gonna repeat myself and say:
- Bio is way too strong and mobile at the same time
- Zerg without mutalisks has basically no chance to come by that and therefore was given the ultralisk unit to be able to bring things back to terran at a certain point of time
- liberators ....
The resume is the same as what I said 3 years ago in tl balance thread: A healthy state of TvZ should be exactly the other way round. Z should be the mobile race which has to deny terran expansions and delay Terrans endgame. T should be the race that goes for a strong endgame where it can overpower Z and meanwhiles is limited to mostly defending + occasional harrassment with medivacs and air units or a strong but SLOW push.
The tools both races were given by nature support this idea of metagame and not the current metagame. It can only be achieved when terran bio and its counterparts of the other races (e.g. banelings) are being toned down and mech is being strengthened.
- remove marauder (potentially reintroduce as a T3 unit)
- nerf baneling
- remove tankivacs + buff tanks, buff BC etc.
- switch lurkers with ravagers position and adapt both units to their new positions (lurker weaker + lair requirement, ravager stronger)
- further changes of T/Z and adapt P to the things done
result: make SC2 great again ;-)
short term fixes for current meta:
- make ultralisks more expensive: +50 gas and maybe +50 minerals
- go ahead with the liberator nerf
But I don't see how the intrinsic issues can be fixed through any minor changes like those. We gonna get used to liberator vs ultra meta in endgame, which is an absolute low quality level endgame imo and ppl rightfully go crazy on streamchats, lol.
Did we watch the same games?
G1 Polt played Bio and got totally rekt.
G2 Polt played Bio and got totally rekt. Until Elazer decided to walk into 8 liberators.
Terran has 1 unit that deal damage to Ultras, Liberators. That is really bad game design.
G3 Polt cheesed. Cant really call that mobile bio.
G4 Polt went for banshees. Not mobile bio.
Polt won none of the games due to mobile bio being to strong?
Last week Polt went for that OP bio aswell vs Firecake and got 0-3ed.
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EPT
